Big Dave's Old Faithful

[Park.Pizza]

Pete,

What brand of IDY did you use for you pie?

Thanks,

Tim

[Park.Pizza]

Pete,

Sorry One more silly thought. Have you tried double batches of your recent "Old Faithful" in your KA mixer?
I'm thinking about trying the recent "Old Faithful" in my 6qt KA.  And one batch of dough isn't enough for our family.


Tim

[Pete-zza]

Tim,

I used the SAF IDY, which comes in a white bag with red lettering (and often referred to as "SAF Red"). Any other brand of IDY should work as well.

I have not tried a double batch in my stand mixer. The double batch will weigh around 44 ounces, or close to 3 pounds. If your mixer can handle that amount of dough without grunting and groaning, I assume you should be OK.

Peter

[Park.Pizza]

Pete,

I bought a 675watt 6qt KA back in January. I've loaded that mixer until it was dancing on the counter almost. And my wife abuses it more than I do.  It gets a little warm, but keeps plugging away.

If I try a double batch and succeed I'll post my results.

Thanks again,

Tim

[JAG]

Tim,

First off, pleased to meet you, and hope you don't mind me chiming in.

I use a Kitchenaid Artisan, I believe it is 675W it has been a while since I have reviewed the specs on it. Anyway, I have been using the New Faithful recipe for quite some time now, and I always do a triple batch in my Kitchenaid. It grunts occasionally and the motor does warm up a bit but it seems to do the job. I have been doing triple batches every week for about a year.

 The total dough weight is ~54 oz.

JAG

[Park.Pizza]

Hello Jag,

Nice to meet you also "again"
We chatted once before about the NAPICS.
Thanks for giving me your response.

After reading all the good and bad posts about KA mixers, I still went out an purchased one. We have a one year warranty on ours, so I told the wife to beat the crap out of it. If it's going to fail, it better be within the first year.  I made a quad batches of the 14" Lehman dough to see if it could handle it. The bowl rocked a little, and the dough hook was 80% engaged in the dough, but it ran great. I even gave it a few extra minute to mix the dough properly.

cheers,

Tim

[PizzaEater]

WOW...look like a bagle recipe to me.  Have often thought of using my bagle dough for pizza.

[Pete-zza]

Dave,

There are a lot of similarities in the two forms of dough, as discussed, for example, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2233.msg19595/topicseen.html#msg19595. I would perhaps tweak a pizza dough recipe before using it to make bagels, especially the hydration, and perhaps substitute non-diastatic barley malt for the sugar.

Peter

[PizzaEater]

I make bagles quite often, with a hydration of 51%ish you're in the bagel range.  I too normally barley malt however, I have used honey, sugar and maple syrup with outstanding results. 

[PizzaEater]

Used this recipe for the first time.  Like I thought very bagle like.  Tasty, not wife's or my favorite (we like thin NY style crust), but my daughter loved it.  The best in her life as matter fact.  My try recipe agian and really work dough to get a very thin crust.  As it was ~18 oz. dough ball for a 14" pizza, next time a 14"er for daughter, and maybe 15" with same dough ball for me and wife.  Best results were 4 1/2 min. at 500 deg. on quarry tiles.  Cust was perfectly browned with a very slight char.  Sorry, no pics.  Didn't last that long

[Pete-zza]

Dave,

Which one of the Old Faithful formulations did you use--the formulation for the 14" in Reply 25 of this thread?

Interestingly, I have found that kids seem to like the Old Faithful pizzas better than the thinner styles, like the NY. I wondered whether they were like one of the chains' pizzas with a fairly thick crust. In my experience, once kids get hooked on chain pizzas, it's hard to wean them off of them.

If you haven't already done so, you might want to try the New Faithful version. The last one I made was the 16" with a thickness factor of 0.11, which is slightly thicker than a typical NY style, for which I use a thickness factor of 0.10-0.105. If you would like the numbers for a 14" New Faithful, let me know. I can also use whatever thickness factor you would like, even below 0.10 if you'd like.

Peter

[PizzaEater]

Pete

Here's the one:

High-gluten flour (100%, 12-13% protein), 46 lbs. (736 oz.)
Water (51.6%), 23.7 lbs. (390 oz.)
Salt (1.0%), 7 oz.
Sugar (1.2%), 9 oz.
IDY Yeast (0.2%), 1.0 oz.
Veg. oil (2.2%), 16 oz.


Mixed everything in a Bosch for 5 min.

1. Added Water 80 deg., yeast & sugar, mixed 30 sec., let sit for 5 min.
2. Added flour & salt on top of water.
3. Turned on mixer, just as flour began coming together added oil with mixer running.
4. Kneaded for 5 min.
5. Let rise in frig. for 24 hours.

Used thickness factor of .115 for a 14" pie. I was a little concerned that due to low hydration that dough would be hard to work, but it was really not bad at all.  I'm sure I could have worked it a lot thinner.  Baked the first at 550 deg. for 4 min., that while not being burned on bottom was too close.    Bake second at 500 deg. for 4 1/2 min., it was perfect. 

Because of flavor plan to try same recipe but use a thickness factor of .105 or even .1, will post results.

Dave

[Pete-zza]

Today I saw the following Big Dave Ostrander "Old Faithful" dough formulation at the Pizza Today bulletin board:

Here is my formula. You'll see that I have it speced out for a 25 as well as 46 pound batch. I intentionally decided to not use a whole 50# bag for two reasons. 1; 50# bags rarely have 50# in them. They are quite often slightly over and under weight. That is why I actually force the weighed 46# for the batch. If I used a whole bag of flour the first 3-4 revolutions of the hook would spill some flour on the floor.

Big Dave’s ‘Old Faithful’ Dough Formula

% AMT
High Gluten Flour 100.0 46 lb. 25 lb.
(12% - 13% Protein)
Salt 1.50 11 oz. 6.0oz.
Sugar 1.13 9 oz. 5.0oz.
Yeast (IDY)instant dry yeast 0.16 1.0 oz. 3/4.0oz
Vegetable Oil 2.20 16 oz. 9.0 oz
Water 75 degree 51.60 25.3 lb. 13.0lb
Next day dough 13# water @ 90 degrees. Double the yeast to 1.5 oz.
This Dough should be ready to use in 12-14 hours. Downside, will blow in 24-30 hours.
1. Accurately weigh out all ingredients.
2. Pour water & sugar, salt in 60 qt. mixing bowl. Stir with wire whip. Let rest to dissolve and stir again.
3. Pour in veg. oil and stir again.
4. Pour in flour.
5. Sprinkle Instant yeast on top of flour.
6. Start mixer on low speed and mix for 9 minutes.

When dough has finished mixing place on worktable. Core temperature of dough should be close to 80 degrees. 90-95 hot batch.
Cut dough balls to desired weights. Suggested weights:
10”=10oz. 12”=14oz. 14”=19oz. 16”=24oz.
Roll dough pieces into seamless round ball shapes.
Place the dough balls on an oiled aluminum sheet pan.
Cover with a plastic bag or film wrap, airtight, and date with a magic marker.
Place dough under refrigeration. 35-38 degrees is ideal.

This formula is a low yeast, next day retarded formula. The dough needs to rest in the refrigerator for at least 24 – 48 hours before using. Two day proofing is better. Then the dough will have great flavor. The useful shelf life of the dough before it over raises and starts to ‘blow’, is 3 days, not counting day one.

To soften the dough and reduce elasticity one may add 8 ozs. of PZ-44 dough conditioner to the batch when you add the yeast. This natural reducer eliminates the snap back tendencies of dough made from Hi-Gluten flour and makes the dough more user friendly for operations that don’t have experience in hand tossing and spinning.

--------------------

Big Dave Ostrander / The Pizza Doctor
http://www.pizzatoday.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001274

[November]

Water 75 degree 51.60 25.3 lb. 13.0lb
Next day dough 13# water @ 90 degrees. Double the yeast to 1.5 oz.
This Dough should be ready to use in 12-14 hours. Downside, will blow in 24-30 hours.

I'm guessing he meant to say: "Same day dough [...]"

[Pete-zza]

November,

Big Dave isn't always the clearest writer and his recipes are sometimes garbled, but I believe he means "next day" (between 12-14 hours and 24 hours?). I say this because the amount of IDY yeast used is only 0.375%, as noted in this recast baker's percent formulation for the "next day" dough batch using 25 lb. of flour, 1.5 oz. of IDY (double the usual amount), and water at 95 degrees F:

Flour (100%): Water (95 degrees F) (52%): IDY (0.375%): Salt (1.5%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.25%): Sugar (1.25%): Total (157.375%):

11340 g  |  400 oz | 25 lbs 5896.8 g  |  208 oz | 13 lbs 42.53 g | 1.5 oz | 0.09 lbs | 4.71 tbsp | 0.29 cups 170.1 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs | 10.16 tbsp | 0.63 cups 255.15 g | 9 oz | 0.56 lbs | 18.73 tbsp | 1.17 cups 141.75 g | 5 oz | 0.31 lbs | 11.85 tbsp | 0.74 cups 17846.33 g | 629.5 oz | 39.34 lbs | TF = N/A

Peter

[November]

Peter,

He mentioned the so called "next day" (90°F water & double yeast) dough should be ready to use in 12-14 hours.  He referred to the main formula as:

This formula is a low yeast, next day retarded formula. The dough needs to rest in the refrigerator for at least 24 – 48 hours before using.

To me, a dough blown in 24 hours is not a next day dough.  A dough that is ready to use in 24 hours is.  If he's calling a dough that's ready in 12 hours and turns south within 24 hours a next day dough, that's a very unusual timeframe.  In a professional setting, if you make dough in the morning, how are you going to use the dough throughout the next day if it blows by the next morning?

- red.november

[Pete-zza]

In a professional setting, if you make dough in the morning, how are you going to use the dough throughout the next day if it blows by the next morning?

November,

Maybe I can send Big Dave an email and get clarification. I don't recall offhand whether Big Dave made his dough in the evening, which is quite common and preferred by some because workers aren't going in and out of the coolers at night.

Peter

[November]

I don't recall offhand whether Big Dave made his dough in the evening, which is quite common and preferred by some because workers aren't going in and out of the coolers at night.

How late in the evening are we talking?  It would have to be after dinner for certain, because a dough made at 4 PM (before the dinner rush) would be ready to use at 4 AM (a useless time to have dough ready), and still might not be usable for dinner the next day.  Both pizza restaurants I've worked at made dough in the morning because it's logistically more efficient without customers to attend to.

EDIT: Clarification would be optional.  If he says the dough should be ready in 12 hours, plan accordingly.

[Pete-zza]

November,

I sent Big Dave an email asking for clarification. I had an email exchange with him once before when I was puzzled by something he wrote--on the "Old Faithful" dough formulation as a matter of fact.

I don't recall when Big Dave used to make his dough when he was in the business (as an independent) but Tom Lehmann often recommends that the dough be made at night--mainly because the dough balls cool down faster with little traffic into the coolers. His counsel (on the PMQ Think Tank) is mostly to independents.

Peter

[Keith_Doughboy]

Hi, first post, great forum here... I've learned a lot just lurking : )

Decided to go for it and build a 'New Faithful' batch of dough, but without High Gluten flour or Vital Wheat Gluten, ADY instead of IDY and ready to use in 2 hours or less. Flour used was King Arthur's Bread Flour, no other bells or whistles. No mixer.

Wonderful! Perfect! Exceeded all expectations! I've had much much worse from a parlor, and paid full click for it!

I stuck to the formula, and increased the amount of ADY by just a scant.. maybe a gram (I weigh ingredients in grams).

Weighed out flour, set aside. Weighed out sugar, set aside. Weighed out water and micro'd to 110 deg F. Added a hefty pinch of the weighed out sugar to the water, and stirred it in with the yeast. Let it proof. Added salt and remaining sugar to flour, hand whisked together. Stirred olive oil into yeast solution, and added all the liquid to the flour. Combined with a wooden spoon until it became difficult. Dumped everything to pastry board, and started to knead in remaining flour from the bowl. What a pleasure to knead! Sticking was minimal, I used Wondra flour for the board and hands. I kneaded for around 10 mins or so, tried a windowpane test. Looked good, but I decided to push it more, so kneaded another 2 or 3 minutes. This stuff was starting to feel like silk! Funny how you just 'know' when a formula is perfectly balanced just by handling it!

Did another windowpane and this one was able to go very thin with no hesitation. Rounded dough, lightly oiled and put in cold oven with light on. 1.5 hrs later, easily doubled. Punched down and rolled back out to pastry board. Lightly kneaded out remaining air, about 7 or 8 kneads. Started with 900 grams of dough, split that in two, created 2 more nice tight skinned rounds, and set them to rise again. 30 mins later, rolled them out and shaped.

Shaping was kind of a struggle at first, but dough seemed to relax after about 3 mins. Made 2 absolutely beyond beautiful 14" pizzas. One was an herb chicken and mozzarella, the other a plain ol' pepperoni and italian sausage. For me, the test of a dough is whether or not anyone eats the crust at the end, and there wasn't a crumb left at the end of this session.

Moral of this story is, this recipe really doesn't require all this extra effort for high grade flour and refrigeration. It might help it, but it won't be anything close to a disaster without those 2 things. I love my pizza, but I guess I'm far from a fanatic... this crust was perfectly acceptable in under 2 hrs using common ingredients, and if anyone here at the house didn't actually watch me make it, they would have never believed it didn't come from a respectable parlor. It also reheated in the micro with no real loss of flavor or any sogginess. Again, I've had much worse that I paid good money for.

I'll try it again when I have the extra time to refrigerate it, and have the Vital Wheat Gluten. It will be interesting to compare how the dough is to work with, how it shapes, and how it tastes. It couldn't possibly end up looking any prettier out the oven, as this was an 11 out of 10 for looks as made here.

Thanks for all the inspiration and information on these forums! It's a lot to read through, but worth the effort. Quite a patient and classy crowd you have here, Pete!

- Keith