Big Dave's Old Faithful

[Pete-zza]

I recently came across a Big Dave Ostrander dough recipe that he calls "Old Faithful".   It's a recipe that is geared for use by professionals using an industrial mixer such as a Hobart 60-qt. mixer (the only mixer he recommends be used for his recipe.)  Big Dave says that when he was in the pizza business he made about 2 million pounds of dough using this recipe.  Others apparently are using this recipe all around the world.

Despite Big Dave's warning "not to try this at home", I decided to throw caution to the winds and scale down Big Dave's recipe to make a 14-inch pizza (which corresponds to a medium thickness crust).  Big Dave indicates that this size pizza requires a dough ball weighing about 18 ounces.  Using that as a starting point and using his baker's percents, I came up with the following recipe and quantities:

      High-gluten flour, 100%, 11.55 oz. (about 2 7/8 c.)
      Salt, 0.95%, 0.11 oz. (about 0.6 t.)
      Sugar, 1.22%, 0.14 oz. (about 1 t.)
      Instant dried yeast (IDY), 0.27%, 0.03 oz. (about 0.3 t.)
      Vegetable oil, 2.2%, 0.25 oz. (about 1.5 t.)
      Water, 51%, 5.95 oz. (about 3/4 c.)

For this recipe, I used the Giusto High Performer high-gluten flour, which has a protein content of around 14%.  I also processed the dough using my home food processor (I will provide specifics on the processing steps to anyone who is interested).  As the recipe calls for, I temperature adjusted the water to achieve a finished dough temperature of about 80 degrees F (which was achieved).  Once the dough was finished, I oiled it, put it into a plastic bag, and placed it in the freezer for about 40 minutes (to more quickly cool down the dough).  The dough was then transferred to the refrigerator compartment of my refrigerator where it stayed for about 26 hours (Big Dave says that the dough will keep for 3 to 4 days and gets better with increasing age).  

When I was ready to shape the dough, I removed it from the refrigerator and let it sit at room temperature for about an hour.  The dough handled very easily, with a good combination of extensibility (stretch) and elasticity (snapback).  I dressed it with 6-in-1 tomatoes, dried basil and oregano, mozzarella and provolone cheeses, Margherita and Hormel pepperoni slices, pre-cooked sausage, a swirl or two of extra-virgin olive oil, and freshly-grated Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese (added after the pizza was done).  The pizza was baked on a 14-inch pizza screen for about 7 minutes and finished for about another minute on a pizza stone that had been preheated for about an hour at around 500 degrees F.

The finished pizza tasted very good.  It had a soft and chewy crust, especially at the rim, and with a nice yeasty and breadlike aroma and a hint of sweetness.  I would describe the pizza as being somewhere between the low-yeast New York style pizza (the Lehmann version being a good example) and a higher-yeast NY style pizza (with Canadave's version being a good example).  

The photo below shows the finished Old Faithful pizza, and the following post shows a slice.  If anyone is interested in having Big Dave's instructions for processing the dough in a mixer, I'd be happy to provide same.  

Peter

[Pete-zza]

And an Old Faithful slice.

Peter

[RedGreene]

Looks great Pete!  You need to seriously consider opening your own shop.

[Pete-zza]

Thanks, RedGreene, but I think I will retain my amateur status .

Peter

[DKM]

Having been a "pro" I prefer amatur status myself.

DKM

[kinetic7]

pete-zza

question for you. what is your inital water temperature??  
thanks

[Pete-zza]

kinetic7,

It was 58 degrees F, calculated by multiplying the desired finished dough temperature (80 degrees F) by 3, and subtracting the sum of the room temperature (76 degrees F), flour temperature (74 degrees F) and the frictional temperature of my food processor operating in the pulse mode (32 degrees F).  I am usually off a few degrees but this time I got lucky and hit 80 degrees on the nose.  

Peter

[Gils]

I can't remember the exact measurements, but that recipe rings close to what we used in one of the pizzarias, I worked for. The only difference is that we used cake yeast, which we somehow used as a primer. (mixed it with water and salt?

Anyway that one looks pretty tasty Pete.

[Pete-zza]

Gils,

From what I can tell, compressed yeast is still used by a lot of professionals because it is cheaper than the dry forms.  And, so long as there is high volume, there isn't a real problem with perishability, as there would be in most cases for home pizza makers.  Also, because compressed yeast is a "wet" yeast, it can be crumbled and mixed directly into the flour (it can also be proofed in water, but usually not along with salt, which degrades yeast performance).  

Big Dave himself seems in recent times to have become a bigger fan of instant dry yeast.  He and Tom Lehmann are often asked whether one form of yeast is better than another.  Apparently the American Baking Institute (AIB) once ran some tests using the different forms of yeast to see whether they could detect differences in the end products.  They couldn't.  So the advice given now is to use whatever form you want.  Many professionals are likely to continue using the compressed yeast because of a cost advantage, whereas home bakers will likely use ADY or IDY because of considerably better storage characteristics and also because it is cheaper than the compressed yeast sold to home pizza makers at the retail level.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

When I first made a pizza dough based on Big Dave's "Old Faithful" pizza dough recipe, I liked it well enough to consider making it again.  So, recently, as part of my annual New Year's Eve pizza making party, I decided that one of the pizzas to be made over the course of the evening should be based on the basic Old Faithful recipe.  However, this time around I was staying with friends in Massachusetts and didn't have any high-gluten flour available to use as called for by the Old Faithful recipe.  Fortunately, I did have access to bread flour (King Arthur brand) and Arrowhead vital wheat gluten (VWG).  Based on the amount of flour called for in the Old Faithful recipe, I estimated that supplementing the KA bread flour with about 3/4 tablespoon of VWG would yield an overall protein content about equal to that of a high-gluten flour.  I also estimated that I would need about an additional 3/4 tablespoon of water to compensate for the added VWG.  So the final recipe was the same as reported in the opening posting of this thread but modified to use the VWG and added water.  

I prepared the dough using my standard food processing techniques, except that I put the kneaded dough directly into the refrigerator after kneading rather than after a brief period in the freezer as was done when I originally made the Old Faithful dough.  The dough was removed from the refrigerator about 24 hours later, and left to sit at room temperature (around 64 degrees F) for about 2 hours in preparation for shaping.  The dough handled beautifully and was shaped and stretched into a 14-inch pizza round.  The pizza round was placed on a 14-inch pizza screen, dressed, baked for several minutes at about 500 degrees F on an upper oven rack, and then transferred for a final few minutes of baking on a pizza stone (on the lowest oven rack) that had been preheated for about an hour at the 500 degree F temperature.  

The finished pizza was very good and for all intents and purposes was quite close to the original pizza I made using the Old Faithful recipe.  Hence, I would have no reservations whatsoever about using the Old Faithful recipe as modified to use bread flour and VWG--both of which are availalble just about everywhere--instead of high-gluten flour, which is available almost nowhere.  If possible, however, I would look for the King Arthur bread flour.  Like its sibling, the Sir Lancelot flour, the KA bread flour is an exceptionally good bread flour.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Fellow member JAG recently mentioned that Big Dave Ostrander's Old Faithful pizza dough recipe had changed a bit since I originally posted a scaled down version of it. So I send Big Dave an email today and asked whether he could reply by sending me the most recent version of the recipe, which he promptly did. As readers may recall from JAG's comments made at the Tom Lehmann thread on NY style dough (Reply #130 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.120.html), it was Big Dave's Old Faithful recipe that was used recently by Tom Lehmann and others to teach participants (including JAG) at a dough making event how to make good pizza dough. The new recipe is a bit different from the one I had previously used but not much. Nonetheless, I have decided to post the latest version below, together with Big Dave's instructions.

It will be noted that the recipe is an industrial sized recipe with instructions intended for pizza operators. In a later posting I will downsize the recipe to 10-inch (9. oz.), 12-inch (12 oz.), 14-inch (18 oz.) and 16-inch (22 oz.) dough ball sizes, as referenced below in Big Dave's instructions, along with the amounts of ingredients to use. If someone needs another size, I am willing to calculate as best I can the amounts of ingredients for that size. Those who are handy with using baker's percents may be able to do that for themselves. (I calculated the thickness factor TF to be around 0.11, which is a medium size thickness).

High-gluten flour (100%, 12-13% protein), 46 lbs. (736 oz.)
Water (51.6%), 23.7 lbs. (390 oz.)
Salt (1.0%), 7 oz.
Sugar (1.2%), 9 oz.
IDY Yeast (0.2%), 1.0 oz.
Veg. oil (2.2%), 16 oz.

1. Accurately weigh out all ingredients.
2. Pour water & sugar, salt in 60 qt. mixing bowl. Stir with wire whip. Let rest to dissolve and stir again.
3. Pour in veg. oil and stir again.
4. Pour in flour.
5. Sprinkle Instant yeast on top of flour.
6. Start mixer on low speed and mix for 10 minutes.

When dough has finished mixing place on worktable. Core temperature of dough should be close to 80 degrees. Cut dough balls to desired weights. Suggested weights: 10”=9oz.,  12”=12oz.,  14”=18oz., 16”=22oz. Roll dough pieces into seamless round ball shapes. Place the dough balls on an oiled aluminum sheet pan. Cover with a plastic bag and date with a magic marker. Place dough under refrigeration.  35-38 degrees is ideal.

This formula is a low yeast, next day retarded formula. The dough needs to rest in the refrigerator for at least 24 hours before using. Two day proofing is better. Then the dough will have great flavor.  The useful shelf life of the dough before it over raises and starts to ‘blow’, is 3 days, not counting day one. 

Peter

[bortz]

Hey Peter, that looks tasty!

Can you post the scaled down conversions to a 16" pie by cups, tsp., tbsp's plz.?

I'm rising my first Lehman style dough right now in prep. for a pizza this afternoon. (A post with pix to follow in new thread).

Man, this Lehman dough hardly wants to rise at all.  Started it rising at 8:30- 10pm last night then cooled it. Pulled it out at 8 am this morning to examine it and wow, it almost looks like the same dough ball size as last night!.  So now it's in the 90 degree oven to help it along a little bit.  That 1/3 tsp. yeast isn't helping matters. 
I can see where the Lehman dough would be a good candidate for a 24-48 hr. rise with so little yeast.  Maybe next time I'll do the 24 hr. room temp.  rise with it.

Thx,
Frank

[Pete-zza]

Frank,

I plan to post the 4 recipes for different pizza sizes this morning, including the 16-inch.

As for the Lehmann NY style dough, don't be overly alarmed about the small amount of rising. If you followed the directions carefully, I think you should be OK. I have observed the same phenomenom from time to time, and I believe it was fellow member Crusty who did also recently. It most likely indicates that your refrigerator is operating on the cool side, maybe somewhere between 35-42 degrees F. I usually try to get the dough warmed up to around 55-60 degrees F when it comes out of the refrigerator before shaping.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

As promised, I have presented below the ingredients, quantities and baker's percents (which are the same for all doughs) for the four different size pizzas--10" (9 oz. dough ball), 12" (12 oz.), 14" (18 oz.) and 16" (22 oz.). Please keep in mind that the kneading time will not be identical for all four sizes, so attention should be paid more to the condition of the dough ball rather than knead time per se. Also, for those who choose to use the volume measurements rather than using a scale to weigh ingredients, I suggest that you use the scoop and level technique for measuring the flour, that is, scoop the flour out of the bag and into the measuring cup until it is a bit overfull and then level off the top of the measuing cup until it is flush by using a flat edge, such as the flat edge of a knife. That is the technique I use to convert from weight to volume in recipes, so using the same technique should keep us pretty close together. When measuring water by volume, be sure to look at the level of the water on a flat surface at eye level. Even that isn't particularly accurate (because of the meniscus) but it is the best that the human eye can do.

For those who can handle baker's percents and wish to calculate dough ball weights for other size pizzas, I calculated the thickness factor TF to be around 0.11, which is typical of a medium thickness pizza. All that is necessary is to solve for W in W = 3.14 x R x R x 0.11, where R is the radius of the size of pizza to be made, and then use the baker's percents to calculate the amounts of all of the ingredients for the related dough ball.

Readers might also be interested to know that while the Old Faithful recipe instructions say to mix the oil in with the water, Big Dave himself has indicated on numerous occasions that it may be better to knead in the oil separately, a practice recommended by his colleague Tom Lehmann. Keep in mind also that bake times will have to be adjusted to accommodate each size of pizza.

Here are the four scaled-down recipes.

10" (9 oz. dough ball)

High-gluten flour (12-13% protein, 100%), 5.76 oz. (1 1/4 c. plus 2t.)
Water (70 degrees F, 51.6%), 2.95 oz. (3/8 c.)
Salt (1%), 0.058 oz. (between 1/4 and 1/3 t.)
Sugar (1.2%), 0.069 oz. (about 1/2 t.)
Yeast (IDY, 0.2%), 0.012 oz. (about 1/8 t.)
Veg. oil (2.2%), 0.127 oz. (about 3/4 t.)

12" (12 oz. dough ball)

High-gluten flour (12-13% protein, 100%), 7.68 oz. (about 1 3/4 c.)
Water (70 degrees F, 51.6%), 3.96 oz. (1/2 c.)
Salt (1%), 0.077 oz. (about 3/8 t.)
Sugar (1.2%), 0.09 oz. (a bit over 5/8 t.)
Yeast (IDY, 0.2%), 0.015 oz. (a bit over 1/8 t.)
Veg. oil (2.2%), 0.169 oz. (about 1 t.)

14" (18 oz. dough ball)

High-gluten flour (12-13% protein, 100%), 11.52 oz. (about 2 1/2 c. plus 1T.)
Water (70 degrees F, 51.6%), 5.95 oz. (about 3/4 c.)
Salt (1%), 0.115 oz. (between 1/2 and 5/8 t.)
Sugar (1.2%), 0.138 oz. (a bit less than 1 t.)
Yeast (IDY, 0.2%), 0.023 oz. (a bit less than 1/4 t.)
Veg. oil (2.2%), 0.254 oz. (a bit more than 1 1/2 t.)

16" (22 oz. dough ball)

High-gluten flour (12-13% protein, 100%), 14.09 oz. (about 3 c. plus 2 T.)
Water (70 degrees F, 51.6%), 7.27 oz. (about 7/8 c.)
Salt (1%), 0.141 oz. (a bit less than 3/4 t.)
Sugar (1.2%), 0.169 oz. (a bit less than 1 1/4 t.)
Yeast (IDY, 0.2%), 0.028 oz. (a bit more than 1/4 t.)
Veg. oil (2.2%), 0.31 oz. (1 7/8 t.)

Peter

[bortz]

Alright Pete!  Looks like a big Dave experiment will be in the works for next weekend.

[Pete-zza]

Frank,

I have made the recipe several times with good results. It's a pretty basic dough. Big Dave says that over 2M pounds of it have been made all over the world.

You will have to let us know how the pizza comes out, and show some photos if you can.

Peter

[Nathan]

Pete-zza,

I tried making this recipe last night using percentages I calculated from his recipe using 46 pounds of flour.  I came up with basically the same percentages you did but the dough is a lot drier than the Lehmann dough    I haven't tried making the pizza yet cause I had another experiment going (King Arthurs recipe for "Brick Oven Pizza" that uses a starter) but I don't think its gonna work out too good 

Anyway, have you seen this recipe? http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/bbs/archive6.cgi?read=3787 Why does it keep changing so much?   

I think I'm gonna try it again using the percentages off that page and see what happens.

[Pete-zza]

Nathan,

I saw the recipe you linked but couldn't decipher it. For example, when I converted the flour from pounds to ounces and tried to calculate the baker's percents for the amounts of salt, sugar, etc., I came out with different numbers (which were somewhat garbled to begin with). Then I found the following Old Faithful recipe that was posted after the one you referenced, and assumed that it was the correct one: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/read/427. That was the recipe I scaled down and reported at the first posting at this thread. The one I posted most recently was one that Big Dave emailed to me last week, after I had asked that he send me his latest version. I have no idea as to why the recipe keeps changing  I suspect he has many versions that have evolved over the years to meet the requirements of different pizza operators whose needs may not all be the same.

Big Dave recommends that only a 60-qt. Hobart mixer be used for his recipe and that all ingredients be carefully weighed. I was aware of his views at the outset but decided nontheless to proceed with a scaled-down version for home use. The recipe is a low-hydration recipe. When I made the dough based on the recipe I don't recall adding more water, but if I had to do it to get the dough in the right condition I would, particularly since my home KitchenAid unit is no match for a 60-qt. Hobart in terms of horsepower or kneading quality. In your case, you might want to give the dough the longest fermentation time you can safely use to allow the dough to develop more fully through biochemical action. That might help compensate for the low hydration.

Peter

[JAG]

All,

Not to throw a wrench in the gears or cause any problems, but, while I was at the NAPICS show in the test kitchen with Big Dave and T. Lehmann they were making what Dave refered to as his old faithful dough recipe. It is slightly different from previous calculations. He may have rounded out his numbers to make things simple. Below is the formulation that he used.

Flour- 100%
Water- 60%
Sugar- 3%
Salt- 2%
ID Yeast- 1%
Olive oil- 3%

Dave and Tom's process for this dough was as follows.

Water to temp.. For this application and a finished dough temp of 80deg. F, 91deg. F water was used.

So, combine sugar and salt to 91deg. water, mix until disolved.
Add IDY to flour, wisk IDY into flour.
Add water mixture to flour and mixer for ~2 min. then add olive oil.

     Note: Tom states to mix for 10 min. max. He checked the progress of his dough at 5, 7, 9, min., but decided 10 was sufficient.

This process and recipe created an incredibly workable dough. Tom did a window pane test to be sure his mix was complete. You could actually read his name badge through the window pane.

I have used this recipe the last couple of weekends and have had great results with it. It was super workable on the table and still tossable, and it had very good oven spring.  Fermentation was 36 hrs. and 2 hrs out of fridge before use. This week I will add some malt to the recipe, but my family likes melted butter brushed around cornicione and a few shakes of garlic salt, so I am hoping the malt can cut through the garlic on the rim.

John

[Pete-zza]

JAG,

Thanks for posting the version of Big Dave's recipe as used at the NAPICS show. Given everything that Big Dave has himself written and posted about his "Old Faithful" recipe over the past few years, the recipe you posted seems to be a fairly radical departure--mainly in the amount of water and IDY but also in most of the other ingredients.  But, just looking at the baker's percents it is fairly clear that the version you posted would make a better candidate to make dough to demonstrate to participants at the show. But the new recipe doesn't strike me as being "faithful" to his past Old Faithful dough recipes, especially in light of the version of Old Faithful recently emailed to me.

That said, however, inasmuch as you have had such good results with the NAPICS recipe, I think it may be useful to our members to be able to try the new recipe. Did Big Dave or Tom L. specify any dough ball weights in relation to pizza sizes (diameters)? Or maybe you have your own calculations on this that might be helpful. With that information, I think I should be able to downsize the recipe for home use by our members, particularly those who are not used to working with baker's percents.

Peter