Author Topic: Thin Crust with Semolina  (Read 10256 times)

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Offline BTB

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Re: Thin Crust with Semolina
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2009, 01:53:49 PM »
My pizza tasters requested me to make another thin crust with semolina and they reminded me that the best one in this category was the one I did and reported on in Reply #4 above.  And indeed it was the best one.  The one I reported on in Reply #15 above was excellent, too, but it just wasn't exactly the same as that I did earlier.  To me and mine, the formulation in Reply #4 closely resembles some Chicago thin crust pizzas that we recall.  Not the light and tender only crust style, but a similar kind that had more of a crunch and crispness to it.

So I set about making a 14" thin crust following the same recipe and technique that I followed in Reply #4.  I increased the ingredients to reflect the larger 14" size, rather than the 11", and returned to using vegetable (soybean) oil instead of corn oil that I did in the Reply #15 formulation.  And I also returned to using KAAP flour instead of the GM Better for Bread flour.  As it turned out, my pizza tasters and I, for this style pizza at least, have a preference for vegetable oil and KAAP with this formulation.  I put a 15" size into the calculation tool so I didn't need to provide for any bowl residue (as I usually do when making a deep dish).  The thickness factor entered into the tool was .08 and the formulation was:

Flour*  (100%):  225.8 g  |  7.96 oz | 0.5 lbs
Water (47%):  106.12 g  |  3.74 oz | 0.23 lbs
ADY (1.5%):  3.39 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.9 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):  3.39 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Olive Oil (4%):  9.03 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.01 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (20%):  45.16 g | 1.59 oz | 0.1 lbs | 9.94 tsp | 3.31 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  3.39 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.85 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk (2%):  4.52 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Total (177.5%): 400.79 g | 14.14 oz | 0.88 lbs | TF = 0.08
  *Note:  The Flour blend consisted of 80% KAAP flour (180.64 g. or 6.37 oz) and  20% Semolina flour ( 45.16 g. or 1.59 oz).

I again used Buzz' autolyse (flour resting) technique withholding roughly 1/3rd cup of flour for a half an hour before adding it to the rest of the mixed ingredients.  I used the mixed dough some 6 or 7 hours later (i.e., same day dough), after punching the expanded dough ball down a couple of times.  Using my reliable 14" dark, anodized nonperforated cutter pan from pizzatools.com, which was lightly oiled,  I par baked the docked skin for 3 or 4 minutes at 475 degrees F, and baked the dressed pizza on the second from the bottom oven rack at the same temperature for approximately 15 to 18 minutes until nice and golden brown, turning from time to time in the oven, of course.

After cooking it up and tasting the first pieces, my tasters and I shouted "Bingo!" as it was -- we thought -- as great as the one we all felt was the best in this category . . . . as I first put together as indicated above.  I could tell right away when I first cut into the cooked pizza with the wheel cutter that this was as good as the one before.  I just heard and sensed through the cutter wheel that nice "crunch" that signified a crispy, yet light and tender crust.  And I again think the small amounts of sugar and NFDM contributed to the nice finished color of the pizza crust as well as a positive effect on the texture..

After I cut the pizza in the Chicago "Chesdan" style, I intended to take pictures of some individual pieces.  But the pizza was gobbled up so quickly, I was lucky to have the pictures of the pizza that I did.  Another great pizzamaking experience.                                --BTB


Offline rcbaughn

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Re: Thin Crust with Semolina
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2012, 12:42:35 PM »
Just wanted to let you know I made this pie BTB with a 60/40 KAAP/Semolina blend, I'll get up a slice picture when I get more time, but thought you'd like to see the results of that experiment. Turned out good, but a bit crumbly, I guess the course flour. Post again soon, off to class! -Cory
More is better..... and too much is just right.

Offline BTB

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Re: Thin Crust with Semolina
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2012, 01:55:53 PM »
Cory, thanks for your report.  We are all looking for those great pizza formulations that bring us smiles and calm bellies.  It's funny you should bring this up as it corresponds to the latest mailing I received from King Arthur flour company.

A year or two ago I ordered a bunch of products from them and corresponded by email with them afterwards about the use of semolina and other flours for pizza purposes.  I was looking for their thoughts about putting in 20 to 25% semolina with their AP flour and their answer seemed to suggest that unless you do alot, like 50%, it would be not be discernable in the recipe (I need to find their email to accurately describe their thoughts).

Yesterday I received KA's April 2012 baker's catalogue which emphasized pizza making as the theme of their current issue.  In it they gave a suggested recipe for "pizza dough" (not deep dish) that included a LARGE proportion of semolina flour (MORE than I've ever used).

The KA recipe:

--1 3/4 cups (7 1/4 ounces) KA AP flour
--1 1/4 cups (7 1/8 ounces) semolina flour
--1 tablespoon + 1 teaspoon KA Pizza dough flavor -- optional
--I teaspoon instant yeast
--1 1/4 teaspoons salt
--2 Tablespoons (7/8 ounce) olive oil
--1 cup + 2 tablespoons to 1 1/4 cups (9 to 10 ounces) lukewarm water

So their suggested proportion of semolina flour is nearly 50%, which is substantially more than my 20%.  Interesting recipe, altho I would like to add a tsp or so of sugar.  In any event, this was a fantastic thin crust pizza and is worth working on some more.  And I'm pleased to see King Arthur is suggesting a substantial use of semolina flour for thin crust pizzas.

                                                                                      --BTB

Offline rcbaughn

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Re: Thin Crust with Semolina
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2012, 08:59:50 PM »
Ha, that is awesome that you actually have been discussing this with KA recently. I will say though that the texture is more than likely my fault and not the flour/semolina mixture. I modified the ingredient amounts by calculating the area of your 14" pan and scaling down to my 10" pan. Hard, but it worked. I docked the dough and baked for four minutes just like you did, then left it to cool for probably 20 mins. I think that was the problem it being too cool, and also me using my shallow little cast iron biscuit pan for baking it on. The crust never got beyond a soft biscuit texture in the oven, and it was pretty compact and not very airy, although that may be the way that this crust was suppose to be. Definitely nothing like my deep dish doughs have turned out for sure as far as texture goes. Texturally are the thin crust and Chicago deep dish recipes similar?

I have read somewhere that it is a bad idea to use a thicker cast iron skillet on a pizza stone as well, because the cast iron sucks the heat away from the stone and you are actually left with an insulator instead of better heat conduction. I don't know if that is true, but in order to get the bottom of the pie crispy I had to set the skillet on the stovetop with the burner on high. Not a bad thing, but definitely not what I was wanting to have to do in order to get a crispy pie. I didn't use any dried milk either because I didn't have any and they only sell large containers that would take me YEARS to use. I can however get ahold of small containers of dried buttermilk. I spent about an hour last night researching on here about the use of the dried buttermilk over the nonfat dried milk and never found a good answer other than pizza hut use to use a mixture of three types of milk. I am wondering if the dried buttermilk would have the same effect as nonfat dried milk without giving too much flavor. Although I do love buttermilk, even straight from the container with cornbread crumbled in it. :-D

Thank you for the quick response, I hope that this thread wasn't too old to resurrect, but I feel like I am opening way too many new threads these days. I don't want to be a hindrance to the community or a pest in any way. I do love baking me some pizza though and sharing my experiences.

-Cory

P.S. - Dough was given a two hour rise, punched down, risen for 1 hour then refrigerated for 2, then taken out and allowed to proof for about 2 hours before patting it out in the pan. Here's a picture of the dough after docking, and the only reason I refrigerated was because I didn't want it to over proof when I was on my way to Wal-Mart. LOL.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 09:07:07 PM by rcbaughn »
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Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Thin Crust with Semolina
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2012, 09:15:19 PM »
Hey Cory,

It's been great reading about your various pizza adventures.  keep up the good work!  In your last post, you alluded to recalculating ingredient masses in order to change the pizza size.  i just wanted to let you know that there is a very useful "expanded pizza dough calculator" on this site that makes this really easy!  the URL is http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html

best wishes, and please keep posting your findings on the forum!   :chef:

Offline rcbaughn

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Re: Thin Crust with Semolina
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2012, 01:51:16 AM »
Hey CDN! Thank you so much for the compliments, it is good to hear that I am not being overly active or a pest. :-D I don't ever want to be the guy who is always asking and never contributing, but I guess I'm learning for now.

I was actually scared to try to use the dough tool. I didn't really understand the use of percentages in baking, but finally figured out the tool completely tonight! I am still absolutely lost on thickness factors, but as long as the thickness factor is provided in the recipe I can do the rest. I am going to try a Mellow Mushroom pie next using Pete's #8 formulation tonight and let it ferment till tomorrow evening. I absolutely love that I can hop on here, spend a few hours reading, then go attempt a pie recipe in a day or two, and even sometimes the same day. Maybe I can post on it tomorrow in the American Style thread and have a good pie.

I am going to go back to the Chicago thin crust style after the Mellow Mushroom one tomorrow for sure, I know that it didn't turn out exactly right or how I wanted it to. I want to get it knocked out to where I can at least make a decent pie that I am happy with. Have a great one though and happy baking this week!    -Cory

More is better..... and too much is just right.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Thin Crust with Semolina
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2012, 11:54:11 AM »
Cory,

I might be able to help you better understand the "thickness factor" deal. I recently read a post somewhere on the forum here that made the light bulb go on in my head. Hope I don't butcher it up too much!

All you need to do is think of it as a RATIO.....thickness factor(x) is a percentage of an ounce of dough....and that small amount of dough is how much you will find in (y), a given area of the rolled out dough. I think (y) is one square inch of area.     So,you have dough weight : surface area.   You want it thicker? You up the thickness factor # (weight) in relation to the area (y).  The number is NOT a measurement number (1/16"),it is percent of an ounce.
The thickness factor numbers we see on the recipes are a given that that has been established from peoples trials and errors....it gives you a starting point.

Now, I hope someone will chime in here if I have this all cornballed up..... :-D

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Thin Crust with Semolina
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2012, 12:32:59 PM »
This thread may be helpful on the matter of thickness factor: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17813.0.html.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Thin Crust with Semolina
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2012, 07:12:33 PM »
This thread may be helpful on the matter of thickness factor: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17813.0.html.

Peter
Peter,

Is there something that I missed in my explanation to Cory?  I'm here to learn too,thanks.

Bob
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Re: Thin Crust with Semolina
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2012, 10:01:48 PM »
Peter,

Is there something that I missed in my explanation to Cory?  I'm here to learn too,thanks.

Bob

Bob,

I believe you stated the matter correctly. It is ounces per surface area, where the area is given in square inches. I usually think of the matter in mathematical terms, where the thickness factor is equal to the dough ball weight divided by the surface area of the skin formed from the dough ball. So, for example, for a skin with a radius R, the thickness factor, TF, is equal to the dough ball weight divided by the expression (3.14159 x R x R). As the value of R goes up, the thickness factor goes down, and vice versa. I use the expression "thickness factor" but Tom Lehmann uses the expression "density loading factor".

For a shape other than circular, the same principles apply. For example, for a rectangular or square pizza skin, the thickness factor is equal to the dough ball weight divided by the expression (L x W). If you made an oval skin, the thickness factor would be equal to the dough ball weight divided by the surface area of the oval skin. In all cases, it is weight per square inch.

Peter



Offline rcbaughn

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Re: Thin Crust with Semolina
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2012, 04:01:15 AM »
I just saw all the thickness factor replies. Thanks guys, you are all awesome. I am going to go read it all right now before I go bake my MM pie. -Cory
More is better..... and too much is just right.

Offline David Deas

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Re: Thin Crust with Semolina
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2012, 07:45:20 AM »
Speaking of Buzz, what ever happened to him?  He still around under a different handle or something?