Author Topic: Thin Crust with Semolina (Read 7531 times)

BTB · « **on:** April 26, 2008, 10:29:28 AM »

After my successful trials with making a couple of Chicago Style deep dish pizzas using semolina as part of the flour base, I recently attempted to make a thin crust pizza using some semolina. As I view a thin crust pizza of the type I developed similar to many generic Chicago area thin crust pizzas, I am reporting it here under the Chicago Style topic, even tho the basic recipe started under the American Style heading and is a variant of "Buzz' Awesome Thin Crust" formulation, which for me is one of the best.

I made a 14" thin crust using my old reliable 14" dark, anodized nonperforated cutter pan from pizzatools.com (which, again, I swear by for thin crust pizzamaking) using sifted Harvest King flour along with some Bob's Red Mill Semolina flour. Mixing by hand and a wooden spoon, I put ADY in 105 degree water for about 7 minutes and used sea salt. Using the expanded dough calculation tool, the formulation I used for the thin crust was as follows:

Flour & Semolina* (100%): 194.6 g | 6.86 oz | 0.43 lbs
Water (56%): 108.98 g | 3.84 oz | 0.24 lbs
ADY (1.25%): 2.43 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Salt (1%): 1.95 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Olive Oil (7%): 13.62 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.03 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%): 23.35 g | 0.82 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.19 tsp | 1.73 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7%): 13.62 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
Sugar (1%): 1.95 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Sweet Dried Dairy Whey (.7%): 1.36 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk (.9%): 1.75 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1.1%): 2.14 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Total (205.95%): 400.79 g | 14.14 oz | 0.88 lbs | TF = 0.08
*Note: The amount of white flour is 159.57 g./5.62 oz. (82%), and the amount of semolina is
35.03 g./1.24 oz. (18%); the total amount of oil is 51.33 g. (26%); the nominal thickness
factor used in the tool for this formulation is 0.08.

I put in a 15" size in the calculation tool for a 14" pizza and thus didn't need to provide for any bowl residue, which you often can do with the tool. I mixed everything together (not too much kneading however) except about 1/3 cup of the sifted Harvest King flour and let the covered dough rest for about 30 minutes. The dough was fairly "oiley" and again resembled a pancake batter (pictured below). After the rest period, I mixed in the rest of the flour plus a couple of teaspoons more (straight from the bag) to get a smooth round finished dough ball. I found with this high oil dough you need to frequently add a little more flour than the formulation calls for. I then put the dough ball in a ziplock bag and let it ferment on the counter for around 40 minutes and then into the refrigerator for 24 hours.

The next day I took the dough ball out a couple of hours before baking and rolled it out very easily. It was still fairly oily and very soft. After rolling it out on a floured counter to about 15 inches, I carefully rolled the skin onto the rolling pin and then onto the slightly oiled 14" cutter pan. You have to be patient and cautious at this point as the dough is pretty soft and pliable and comes apart easily. After rolling it off of the rolling pin and getting it in the pan, I needed to press out some parts of the dough to get it to fit into a nicely rounded shape.

I pre-baked the skin on the lowest oven rack at 450 degrees F for about 4 minutes plus (picture below). I forgot to dock it and midway through the pre-bake took it out of the oven and quickly docked it using just a fork. After the pre-bake and letting it cool on the counter for 10 minutes, I then put some non-drained 6 in 1 sauce on (mixed with Penzey pizza spices, minced roasted garlic, white pepper, salt, ginger, and honey).

BTB · « **Reply #1 on:** April 26, 2008, 10:32:54 AM »

After putting on some good Italian sausage, I then put some shredded mozzarella and provolone cheese, along with some grated parmesan, and baked it on the bottom oven rack at the same temperature for around 10 to 11 minutes until nicely browned.

The pizza turned out excellent, I thought, very tasty and crispy in a light airy kind of way. I think the combination of the high amount of oil along with some semolina in the flour base gives it a very nice crispy and light texture to the crust. I think the next time I try this, I will increase the semolina to 30 or 40%. I saw a TV program the other day that used a 50% proportion of semolina to their thin crust pizza formulation, so I'm anxious to see for myself what even more semolina in the recipe will do for the end product, as I've become a real fan of semolina-based pizza crusts.

[Parenthetically, use of the Sweet Dried Dairy Whey and the Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk is not critical and the jury is still out -- to me -- on it's value in the formulation. I just used it because I have a good supply of it from Bob's Red Mill that I used on another pizza crust formulation (Wazatron's Donatos Pizza Recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5977.msg54434.html#msg54434). In this recipe, I added a "tad" of each just for curiosity but hadn't noticed any special characteristic of the affect of the ingredients.]

widespreadpizza · « **Reply #2 on:** April 26, 2008, 10:52:59 AM »

There is a pizza place near me that uses an woodstone oven to cook 100% semolina crusts in the thin/NY style. I have never tried 100% but maybe somebody will. Anyways nice looking pie. just wanted to add to your motivation to up the ante on the semolina. -marc

Pete-zza · « **Reply #3 on:** April 26, 2008, 01:14:00 PM »

BTB,

I try not to ask my dough formulations to do too much and, hence, I tend not to add too many ingredients that might compete with each other, add superfluous features, or interact in some unintended fashion. So, when I saw your dough formulation, I wondered why you used the nonfat dry milk and dried dairy whey.

Nonfat dry milk is usually added to a dough formulation to get increased crust coloration and to achieve a slightly more tender crust. There is also a bit of calcium added to the crust along with a minor dairy note, but that dairy note gets lost as soon as the cheese goes onto the pizza. In a similar manner, dried dairy whey is often added to a dough formulation to get increased crust coloration where that has been a problem or is likely to become one. The increased crust coloration comes from the lactose sugar in the dairy whey. Unlike other forms of sugar, the lactose sugar is not metabolized for the purpose of being used as food by the yeast so it is residual sugar that is available at the time of baking to contribute to crust coloration. An added side benefit of the dairy whey is that the lactose has a low sweetness factor. So, it doesn't show up in the finished crust as sweetness on the palate, which can be a real benefit if there is otherwise a lot of sugar used in the dough. Looking at the rest of the ingredients in your dough formulation, it seems to me that the usual benefits from using nonfat dry milk and dried dairy whey are not really needed in your case. There is plenty of tenderness in the finished crust (because of all the oil and the butter) and, using the Harvest King bread flour and sugar, crust coloration should not be a problem. The levels of the nonfat dry milk and dried dairy whey you used were lower than the usual recommended amounts, so that might account for why you didn't detect their contributions.

Peter

BTB · « **Reply #4 on:** December 21, 2008, 01:04:42 PM »

After making a number of Malnati style deep dish pizzas a number of times, I thought I'd return to trying out making a thin crust with semolina as it's been a great added ingredient for getting a nice crisp character to pizzas. So last night, I made a small 11" thin crust pizza using 20% semolina and added just a little NFDM (Baker's Non Fat Dry Milk) to the dough formulation that I often use for Malnati deep dish pizza with Semolina. With a thickness factor of .08, the dough formulation that I followed was:

Flour and Semolina Blend* (100%): 121.43 g | 4.28 oz | 0.27 lbs
Water (47%): 57.07 g | 2.01 oz | 0.13 lbs
ADY (1.5%): 1.82 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Salt (1.5%): 1.82 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
Olive Oil (4%): 4.86 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (20%): 24.29 g | 0.86 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.35 tsp | 1.78 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%): 1.82 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk (2%): 2.43 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Total (177.5%): 215.54 g | 7.6 oz | 0.48 lbs | TF = 0.08
*Note: The Flour and Semolina Blend is made up of 97.14 g. (3.42 oz.) all-purpose flour and 24.29 g. (.86 oz.) semolina flour.

I started the dough earlier in the morning mixing all the dry ingredients together by hand and wooden spoon using KAAP and Bob's Red Mill Semolina flour. I put the ADY in a little warm water (105 degrees F) for 9 minutes until it foamed up nicely and then mixed it in with the dry ingredients and remaining water. Then I added the oil and mixed by hand. Unfortunately I ran out of corn oil, which is my preference and first choice, and instead used some vegetable oil on hand. As happens sometimes with this oily dough, I found myself adding more flour until the dough formed a nice ball without the oily feel to it. I put the dough ball in a glass bowl, covered with a kitchen towel and into the warm oven (approx. 80 degrees F) for approx. 1 hour. After the dough rose nicely, I punched it down and returned to the warm oven for about 40 minutes more. I then punched it down again, put it into a zip lock bag and into the refrigerator just for a few hours.

After out of the refrigerator for about 75 minutes, I flattened it out on the counter top by hand to a circle of approx. 11" in diameter. I then rolled it up onto my rolling pin and unrolled it carefully onto my slightly oiled 14" cutter pan and par baked it on the second from the bottom rack in a 475 degree oven for exactly 3 minutes. After cooling for 10 minutes or so, I dressed the pizza up first with undrained 6 in 1 sauce (mixed with pizza spices, minced garlic, and honey), then put on some uncooked sausage and as well as some previously "nuked" pepperoni on half of the pizza along with the sausage. I then topped it with around 6 oz. of shredded mozzarella and provolone combination cheese and sprinkled some grated parmesan on top of that.

BTB · « **Reply #5 on:** December 21, 2008, 01:07:38 PM »

I baked the pizza on the second from the botton oven rack at 475 degrees for approx. 15 to 18 minutes until nice and golden brown, turning from time to time in the oven. The pizza turned out really great and a couple of my pizza tasters said it was my best thin crust pizza yet. When I first cut into the cooked pizza with the wheel pizza cutter, I could hear and feel that nice "crunch" to the crust that signified a nice crispy, yet light and tender crust. And I think the sugar and NFDM contributed to a nice golden color. I have another dough ball in the refrigerator now that is basically the same formulation, only with 56% hydration instead of 47% as in this formulation. I'm anxious to try it out in the next day or two and see how that compares. I, of course, continue to be a big, big fan of using semolina flour in pizza dough formulations.

JConk007 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 21, 2008, 02:52:08 PM »

Damn you BTB!
YUM! Now I have to try this one too

If its anything as good as the Malnati deep dish I am in. I did that last week see your thread
and they turned out great. Now this one I'll try the holiday pies. and thanks to you, I have plenty of semolina bobs red mill and KA so gotta use it up! oh and the 6 in 1s came from escalon no excuses here.
Thanks
John

Pete-zza · « **Reply #7 on:** December 21, 2008, 03:02:16 PM »

BTB,

Nice job, as usual

.

Were you able to tell the difference between the vegetable oil and the corn oil and, if so, do you have a preference for this type of pizza?

Peter

BTB · « **Reply #8 on:** December 21, 2008, 04:05:12 PM »

John, this pizza making stuff is really great, isn't it? There are so many types and varieties to work with and eat. My pizza tasters keep telling me I should open a pizzeria and make lot's of money because they think it's much better than any commercial product. But you know how that goes. If you try this thin crust, remember to par bake the crust or skin for a short time (don't get it brown). Many people who've tried this forgot to par bake the crust and while it turns out good, it isn't as good as if you par baked the crust. And remember to dock it with a fork or a docker so it doesn't puff up on you. I just received a reorder of my 6 in 1, so I'm set on that too for a while also.

Peter, I was going to say that corn oil is far superior, but reflecting back on the taste of this pizza, it was very, very good. I know I can tell the difference in a pizza made with vegetable oil and one made with corn oil as corn oil has a very distinctive taste (i.e., a good one). But this was so good that I will have to re-assess my thinking in the future when I try this again with corn oil. The dough in my refrigerator awaiting use in a day or two that I mentioned above also has vegetable oil, so I'll have to wait for a week or two to do one with corn oil. I remember reading Tom Lehmann when he answered someone asking how to make a crispier pizza. He said --surprisingly -- that the answer was more water and not less water (as a general rule). This pizza that I reported about here was very crispy at 47%, so I wonder how the one with greater hydration (56%) will compare.

BTB · « **Reply #9 on:** December 31, 2008, 03:04:14 PM »

After making the pizza mentioned in Reply #4 and #5 above (which was a "same day dough" crust) and which many of my tasters rave about, I made 2 additional thin crust pizzas within a few days afterwards, both having the dough made in the same manner and refrigerated in ziplock bags. One pizza used the identical formulation as recited above in Reply #4 and was refrigerated (retarded) for 48 hours. The other pizza had the same % ingredients, except the hydration or water was 56%. That dough was refrigerated for 72 hours. In both cases, the dough was allowed to rise a good amount for 2 to 3 hours and punched down a couple of times before refrigerating.

My guests all loved these pizzas and those that were familiar with Chicago thin crust pizzas all said they were better than or as good as many thin crust pizzas that they've had in Chicago. But interestingly, those who had tasted the pizza referred to in my Reply #4 and #5 above all said that while those with the retarded doughs were excellent, the first one that I made and reported on in #4 above was much better. And the reason they gave was that the crust on that pizza was much crunchier and crispier, making for a much tastier pizza. Even tho the pizza with the 48 hr dough was identical, it did not crisp up as well as the same day dough crust, despite my par baking it for a minute or two longer than the original one. And the pizza with the 72 hr dough and the higher 56% hydration, while very good in taste, still did not match the crunch/crisp factor that others found to be so desirable in tasting the pizza. And I even par baked the crust on that one a minute or so more than the others.

The result of these trials leads me to the conclusion that for my thin crust pizzas with semolina as part of the flour blend, same day dough (in my case between 6 and 7 hours) brought about a superior result in terms of getting a much crispier and crunchy pizza that appealed to a lot more pizza tasters than doughs refrigerated (retarded) for 1 to 3 days afterwards. I'm not quite certain of the reason for it and maybe it was a quirk, but I will definitely be inclined to repeat this using same day pizza dough crusts. This was for thin crust and I'm wondering what same day dough will be like for deep dish, which I usually always refrigerate a day or two before using the dough.

Incidentally, some have asked how I get this very soft dough onto a cutter pan or screen. I don't have a very good rolling pin, but I roll it up onto the rolling pin as best I can -- with a lot of overlap unfortunately -- and place it down in my cutter pan. Simetimes there are some holes or breaks, but they're easy to patch with some excess dough. Since the dough is similar to that used for deep dish pizzas, I suppose one could just press it out in the cutter pan, which I've never tried yet. A screen, however, would be a much different matter.

JConk007 · « **Reply #10 on:** December 31, 2008, 03:22:41 PM »

BTB
The last one is.08 thickness factor as in reply 4? the .06 thin/cracker I made looked to rollout much thinner than your picture
Did not look as supple / oily either Just curious .Also thats an 11" pie in a 14"? pan recipe in reply 4 is for what final size cutter pan?
THANKS
John

BTB · « **Reply #11 on:** January 01, 2009, 09:06:16 AM »

John, I just "posed" the pizza skin like that for the camera. I was afraid if I shot pictures of it when I made it thinner, it might get torn or get holes in it and not look as good. I pressed it out thinner by hand to about .08 before finally par baking it. For these soft doughs, I just press it out with the palm of my hand into a round pizza shape and then wrapped it up onto a rolling pin. For cracker crust doughs, which are very dry, much stiffer, and not as giving, I need to use a rolling pin and work fairly hard at getting it thin. And unlike a cracker crust, this was easy to roll or spread out. The 11" pie mentioned in #4 above was just placed in my 14" cutter pan. You can do all kinds of sizes in it, of course, up to 14". I'm not sure that answers your question, tho. Keep up the great pizzamaking work.

JConk007 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2009, 09:56:40 PM »

I tried this recipe last weekend along with the Home Run Inn. I had all the ingredients of the 11 listed except the baker whey. at 1.36G I did not think that would be an issue. I added an extra .5g of the Bakers dry milk (not sure why Peter, I'm not even sure what these 2 do. I think for browning?) I had enough for my 10" cutter pan and the balance went toward the three bean turkey chili pie posted here. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7697.msg66048.html#msg66048
Well it wasn't my best effort because of my slight mistake I will fill you in on. Your 14" cutter skin appears shrunk down in the photo after the par bake. This was the experience I had when making the cracker crust as well. You can see by my picture of the perfect edge when my oven lost heat. A lesson I learned here was don't use the timer on the fancy digital oven, while I was timing out the Home Run Inn somehow I shut the oven down

I was watching and knew something was off when par baked for 4 min and the dough did not seem to move much. After I figured out the mistake I made and got done kicking myself in the #$!@ the oven was down to about 340 degrees not exactly pizza temp. Lesson I learned was don't try to do much at once. I had 3 different doughs that required 3 different temps. and trying too watch football and eat the HRI I just made at the same time! May have lost my Pizza face for a bit. Any way what to next? crank it up to 500 what else since the last pie was a NY style. I will also post that was sweet, after another reheat of the stone. So the cheese got a bit crispy and the bottom a little light and did not shrink too much Pretty circle
Anyway I pulled it off with about 45 down time but feel I must try again with the whey and the proper temp. I tried to do like your 3rd pie. First the cheese it and scoop hand crushed San marzanos here and there.
As allways tasted great with the additional semolina and the high oil content.
If Nothing else I got a good pic a proper use of a cutter pan! you can see the minimal leftover dough life ring in the pic
Never give up the ship

Pete-zza · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2009, 10:09:28 PM »

Quote from: JConk007 on January 15, 2009, 09:56:40 PM

I had all the ingredients of the 11 listed except the baker whey. at 1.36G I did not think that would be an issue. I added an extra .5g of the Bakers dry milk (not sure why Peter, I'm not even sure what these 2 do. I think for browning?)

John,

See Reply 3 in this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6605.msg56646.html#msg56646.

Peter

JConk007 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 15, 2009, 10:24:35 PM »

Peter ,

Yes,I did see that when reading thread, just forgot. I am not used to seeing all those ingredients. I think if my oven temp was right the coloration would have been perfect even without the whey. It still tasted like the other Chicago style none the less. Very much to my liking again BTB!
John

BTB · « **Reply #15 on:** January 16, 2009, 09:45:29 AM »

Don't feel so bad, John. I hate to count the number of times when making a pizza that I later noticed that I or someone accidentally shut the oven off earlier. Oh well, it happens.

A couple of days ago I, too, made a thin crust with Semolina, only I did one following the formulation in my Reply #4 above. I like the affect of the lower hydration with this pizza, not the one with the higher amount of water as in the first posting. Anyway, the only change I made was to use the GM Better for Bread flour rather than the KAAP. I also made it for a 12" size, but put in a 13" size in the calculation tool so I didn't need to provide for any bowl residue. The thickness factor was .08 and the formulation was as follows:

Flour* (100%): 169.6 g | 5.98 oz | 0.37 lbs
Water (47%): 79.71 g | 2.81 oz | 0.18 lbs
ADY (1.5%): 2.54 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
Salt (1.5%): 2.54 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Olive Oil (4%): 6.78 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.51 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Corn Oil (20%): 33.92 g | 1.2 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.54 tsp | 2.51 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%): 2.54 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk (2%): 3.39 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Total (177.5%): 301.04 g | 10.62 oz | 0.66 lbs | TF = 0.08
*Note: The Flour blend consisted of 80% GM Better for Bread flour (135.68 g. or 4.78 oz) and 20% Semolina flour ( 33.92 g. or 1.2 oz).

I used Buzz' autolyse technique withholding about 1/3rd cup of flour for a half an hour before adding it to the rest of the mixed ingredients. I also par baked the skin for 3 or 4 minutes at 475 degrees F and used the dough some 5 or 6 hours later (i.e., same day dough), after punching the expanded dough down several times. The process had been similar to others, except I put a little corn meal on the cutter pan underneath the pizza skin.

BTB · « **Reply #16 on:** January 16, 2009, 09:47:27 AM »

I added a little fresh mozzarella along with shredded mozz and added some pepperoni on top of the cheese on half of the pizza, altho I feared it may burn being on top of the cheese.

BTB · « **Reply #17 on:** January 16, 2009, 09:51:19 AM »

The pizza turned out very nice and crispy and not a piece was left. I think, however, I will return to using the KAAP flour for this style pizza, along with semolina, of course. And I do like using the Baker's NFDM. Besides assisting in getting a nice color, it aids in adding a light tender flakiness to the crust, I think. I really don't like the ultra light or white color of some of the baked pizza crusts that I've seen made recently and like to see a nice medium golden brown color to the crust, sometimes with a little darkened edges. To me that's perfect.

Mad_Ernie · « **Reply #18 on:** January 16, 2009, 10:12:54 AM »

Very nice, BTB!

Okay, I'm ready for some pizza already!

P.S. What did you not like about the GM bread flour as opposed to the KA-AP?

JConk007 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 16, 2009, 10:18:08 AM »

BEAUTIFUL!! Even with my rookie pin

I think I like the low Hydration for this as well. I will try this one Next !
You rehydrate the ADY Right? So you par baked then put in fridge for 4 hrs? and you took out the Whey right? I like the fresh mozz touch too but I may put that and the pep under the thicker shred when baking. What was your total bake time after toppng?
Also, It appears that you are using your trustyold 14" cutter pan as sort of a disk you do not take the dough right out to the edge and up the side and cut, and shooting for a 12" final size, I kinda missed that too on my first attempt too
Well give her another go soon.
Thanks for all your posts and guidance! The great pictures are priceless in preparing these formulas.
John

ps My 14" cutter should be here by pizza day this weekend ! also got 1 new 12"X2 "pstk for those deep dish formulas. Hey, whats another pan or 2 on the pizza tools shelf ? A beautiful thing thats what!