Brooklyn style Sicillian Pizza?

[Tonio]

While surfing about the web getting info on Sicillian style pizza I came across this:
http://www.sevenfishesblog.com/7/2008/02/draft-brooklyn.html

what you guys think?

I must say that Pizza Making. com has much better recipes and some are home brew.

T

[Rock808]

I've seen that vid and the pizza looks awesome. I have never been to that place or L&B Spumoni gardens but it looks like I will have to make the trip soon. Funny thing is I had a very similar pizza to the "brooklyn style" in that vid in a place in upstate NY called Joe's pizza and it was some of the best I've ever had.

[Jose L. Piedra]

Might as well set try the ball rolling here.

The dough formula: 70% hydration, .25 IDY, 2% salt, 5% olive oil. Overnight cold rise (12.5 hours), then 3.5 more on the counter. It was pressed out and then placed in the pan, topped and baked with no pan rise @ 550 on the low rack for 11 minutes.

It seems plausibly convenient to use processed mozz slices for a pizza like this. That's what I thought, too. Don't do it. That stuff burns like crazy even when it's covered in tomato sauce. I actually had to amputate some sections of a few slices that were covered with a horrible jet-black skin, which operation of course took off the top off the crust along with it.

The taste was excellent, though, with the boiled mozz providing a rich and creamy complement to the tomato. I didn't have any pecorino on hand and so the pie wasn't fully topped, but there's definitely going to be a next time here and when the time comes, I'll use some. I may also make the next one more traditionally Sicilian by using anchovies.

JLP

[Jose L. Piedra]

Cross section:

[scott123]

Nice Job, Jose.

Yes, that processed mozz is an abomination.

I don't know how authentic you're trying to be, but if you want something closer to L&B, you might want to dial back the thickness factor a bit.  Also, I can't say for certain, but I think the dough for Brooklyn Sicilian might be a bit leaner. Maybe.

I never thought I'd say this, but I think I might actually eventually try my hand at an L&B clone.  I'm not a big fan of Sicilian (cheese never bubbles right), but L&B isn't a pure Sicilian, more of a Roman/Sicilian hybrid and it really is one of the best pizzas in the country.

[Jose L. Piedra]

Thanks Scott, appreciate the feedback. The dough is just a generic, all-purpose formula of mine; I really have no idea at this point what exactly they do over in Brooklyn. I do agree that it was too thick, though.

[JimmyG]

Jose: Here is one I did about a month ago, trying to replicate my favorite Sicilian joint, Umberto's in New Hyde Park (not too far away from Brooklyn proper) http://www.originalumbertos.com/gallery.php photo#9. This one I did with a 64% hydration and about 2% EVO added in. The rest of the formula and methods were very similar to yours. I was not too happy with the cheese on this pie. I normally will cube it and freeze it, which I didn't do and it burned (room temp and shredded). But other than that I was pretty pleased with how it turned out.
 

[JimmyG]

Here is a photo of the pan I used for it. It is a heavy gauge aluminum pan which worked out alright.

[Jose L. Piedra]

Nice.

With respecting to over-browning/burning cheese: I looked through several dozen photos of Spumoni Gardens pizzas yesterday evening and I noticed that they completely dredge the top with sauce (and lots of it). Hence the cheese is completely protected even though the crust is baked to the point of blackening. With that in mind, I sauced the leftover slices of yesterday's effort a second time before putting them in the oven for re-heating, and the burning cheese problem seems to have been solved.

JLP

[JimmyG]

Jose,
I think I am going to try what your suggesting next time, add more sauce, which makes a lot of sense. I know that my sauce application was on the thin side, even though I dumped it over the cheese.  How much more sauce are you thinking, compared with say a NY style? I wish their was a TF reference for sauce application for the different styles of pies.

[Jose L. Piedra]

Jose,
I think I am going to try what your suggesting next time, add more sauce, which makes a lot of sense. I know that my sauce application was on the thin side, even though I dumped it over the cheese.  How much more sauce are you thinking, compared with say a NY style? I wish their was a TF reference for sauce application for the different styles of pies.

Judging by the following video:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocs79_IbJ-g" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ocs79_IbJ-g</a>

and the following pics:

http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/vyoA8dxwScuMV_AsTcjQcg?select=vr_aZ-MBvNdGwSraUaBiKg

the answer would seem to be: lots. More specifically, at least enough to cover the cheese completely with no bare spots. This in turn raises the question of how much is too much, but that's probably something we'll all have to learn the hard way.

JLP

[JimmyG]

Thanks for posting that Jose. The L&B work flow makes a little more sense with the Sicilian style crust than what I was trying to do. I was trying to imitate what they do at Umberto's for their grandma style as shown in this video (starts around 4:00)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eQrFsLvf8Y" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eQrFsLvf8Y</a>

only I was trying to apply this to a Sicilian style crust. So I was just dolloping on a thicker sauce with cubes of cheese in between as if the two style were the same. Where as L&B is doing some thin slices of cheese with a thinner sauce applied a little more liberally all over the top. Got it now.

[sum1else]

Jimmy,

That looks just like Umberto's. I remember when Umberto's opened in Huntington and introduced us to the "grandma" slice. It was my favorite slice until they sold that location to someone else. For the Grandma, I believe they do not use their regular sauce. They use something with more spices. They also use parmesan and perhaps romano baked into the pie. I know there are at least 3 cheeses in it, I just can't remember exactly which ones. Also, a lot of Long Island joints (but not necessarily Umberto's-you could ask them) par-cook their Sicilian pies before topping with cheese and sauce. I know that Cugini and Mario's do this.

Having been to LB, you should know its absolutely nothing like an Umberto's sicilian. It's something you need to experience to understand.  Simply changing your workflow to look like LB's will not get you there, although it could help with your cheese problem. Their dough is unique. The outer layer is crispy yet the inside is gooey. If you end up going to LB, order a pie half-cooked so you can bring it home and freeze it. My freezer is stocked!

[JimmyG]

Here is my latest attempt at the "Brooklyn style" Sicilian with some direction from video posted by Jose, thanks again for posting that Jose . The only place I really diverged from the method outlined was with the dough formula. I am big fan of semolina doughs so... Anyways the dough formula was:
100.0% flour (1:2 ratio of AP flour and Semolina)
69.0% water
2.0 % salt
0.3 % yeast
TF of 1.4 for a 14*14 inch pan

I increased the hydration of this dough due to my previous experiences with semolina dough's performance in relation to straight white flour doughs.  AP was added to reduce the chewiness in the final dough (semolina can get quite tough). The dough was mixed in a food processor and proofed at 50F for 3 days. Other than that, I followed the construction methods in the video and even bought some deli sliced cheese. The pie was baked at 550F. I was really pleased with the results. I wish I had a crumb or undercarriage shot but the pie was gone before I could snap a photo. Does anyone have a Sicilian pie sauce recipe? I was wanting to compare notes.
Jim

[Jose L. Piedra]

That looks really proper JimmyG. How was it texturally (e.g. crispy, or soft, or chewy, etc.) ?

JLP

[JimmyG]

Jose,
The texture was great. When my bottom teeth and others bit into the crust, the crunch was definitely audible. The chewiness was on par with a typical NY crust, if slightly more so. So I may need to up the AP the next time around to reduce the toothsomeness. The addition of the semolina added a fantastic sweet and grainy flavor that I have yet to experience from a normal BF dough. If there was one thing I would change would be the amount of oil I added to the pan. I think I may have been a little heavy handed and the flavor the olive oil did come through.  While it was not unpleasant, it made the pie feel heavier than it should have been.
Jim

[fcbuilder]

Hey jimmy , I know a little about what goes on in Umberto's . My sister worked there for about 9 years and my uncle worked there in his retirement stocking supplies. My sister told me that the sicilian pies have a different dough then all there other pies and the sauce is cooked with pork and beef bones. I have asked my uncle one time what kind of flour they use and he told me all trump's but my guess is that they use other flours as well in the sicilian. My sister also told me that they are very secretive when mixing there dough only Carlo ,Umberto,his nephews and son do the mixing. hope this helps. I am going to give it a try soon also.

[JimmyG]

Thanks for the intel about Umberto's! "...the sauce is cooked with pork and beef bones." Really??? That sounds like my ragu, minus the meatballs. Wow, I never would have guessed that one. I wonder if the sauce has some tomato paste in it too? May have to play around with this one. Thanks again.

[fcbuilder]

Thanks for the intel about Umberto's! "...the sauce is cooked with pork and beef bones." Really??? That sounds like my ragu, minus the meatballs. Wow, I never would have guessed that one. I wonder if the sauce has some tomato paste in it too? May have to play around with this one. Thanks again.

   
 
also they do par bake the sicilian crusts.