Author Topic: Flour Substitutions  (Read 1994 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JoanNYC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
Flour Substitutions
« on: May 02, 2008, 02:21:17 PM »
I made a crust yesterday with 75% all purpose and 25% cake flour

I liked the results

However, I want to try the same recipe next time using 00 flour which I just found locally

Do I use the same amount called for in this recipe and future recipes I may want to try

Thanks

Joan/NYC


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21728
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Flour Substitutions
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2008, 02:43:20 PM »
JoanNYC,

It might help if you post the recipe you used and indicate what brands of all-purpose flour and cake flour you used and also what brand of 00 flour you intend to use.

Peter

Offline JoanNYC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
Re: Flour Substitutions
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2008, 02:50:46 PM »
Thanks Peter

The 00 is BelAria

The flour I used was King Arthur unbleaded all purpose and Pillsbury Softwasilk (non self rising)

The recipe was from Michele Scicolone's "1000 Italian Recipes".  It is the Neopolitan Dough.  I have had much success with the Focaccia recipes from this book

Ingredients:
1 tsp active dry or instant yeast
1 cup warm water
1 cup plain cake flour (non self-rising)
About 3 cups unbleached all-purpose
2 tsp salt

I used my kitchen aid to mix and knead ingredients.  Did a bit of hand kneading afterwards

Shaped into ball and let rise from approx 1.5 hours (covered)

Pressed out the air and let rise again (after dough was divided) and let rise for another hour

Used a baking stone (preheated) at 500 degrees and let bake for 6 or 7 minutes

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Flour Substitutions
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2008, 03:11:25 PM »
JoanNYC,

I'm assuming you're using the recipe from the Neapolitan-Style Pizza Dough section on page 486.  Cake flour and all-purpose flour can't absorb as much water as flours with a higher level of protein, but I have to say that's a pretty dry dough on paper.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21728
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Flour Substitutions
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2008, 03:38:35 PM »
JoanNYC,

I am puzzled by the recipe you used. If you actually used one cup of cake flour and three cups of all-purpose flour, one cup of water would, by my estimation, place the hydration (the weight of water in relation to the total weight of flours) at around 46% or less (depending on the accuracy of your water measurement). That would be a fairly stiff dough, and one with a hydration considerably less than the hydration typically used for Neapolitan-style doughs. I'm guessing that the recipe does not say to use all of the all-purpose flour or it may say to add more water if necessary. I have never been able to determine what the absorption rate is for the Bel Aria flour but, if I had to guess, I would say something around 56-58%. As November noted, that is less than what you would use for stronger flours.

I happen to have some Bel Aria flour on hand so I weighed out four cups textbook style. By "textbook" style, I mean that I measured out the flour by first stirring it in the flour bag to lighten it and then lifting the flour by a tablespoon into my 1-cup measuring cup just to the point of overflowing. I then leveled off the top with a flat edge of a kitchen knife. I did not shake the measuring cup or tamp it on a hard surface. I got a total weight of 17.2 ounces. Using a hydration of 58% yields 9.976 ounces of water by weight. Volumetrically, that is equivalent to 1 cup + 3 T. + 3/8 t. I think that is the amount I would try with the Bel Aria flour (4 c.). In measuring out the water in your measuring cup, you should line up the bottom meniscus of the water with the one-cup marking, at eye level on a flat surface. Even with this careful measuring, you may find it necessary to adjust the flour and/or water. My flour may not be as fresh as yours.

Peter

Offline JoanNYC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
Re: Flour Substitutions
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2008, 03:44:08 PM »
Thanks for the good advice

I think I wound up using twice the amount of water called for

Let you know how it comes out when I use the Bel Aria

I learned lots already from your replies

joan

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Flour Substitutions
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2008, 03:48:20 PM »
I'm guessing that the recipe does not say to use all of the all-purpose flour or it may say to add more water if necessary.

On the contrary, it even says that additional flour may be necessary, and that doesn't even include the bench flour.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21728
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Flour Substitutions
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2008, 03:52:59 PM »
Joan,

I neglected to mention that you should measure out the Bel Aria the same way I did if you plan to use the amount of water I specified. I think you may have already figured that out but I wanted to be clear on that point.

BTW, you shouldn't expect to get much crust coloration with the Bel Aria. If you do a forum search using my forum name (Pete-zza) and "Bel Aria", you will find a fair amount of information on my use of the Bel Aria.

Peter

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Flour Substitutions
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2008, 04:00:59 PM »
(Bellow is an excerpt from the relevant portions of the section on this style from this book.)

In Naples, where pizza making is an art form, the ideal pizza crust is chewy and only slightly crisp, flexible enough that it can be folded without the crust cracking.  Neapolitan pizzas are neither thick and cakey nor thin and crunchy.

To achieve the right balance with the type of flour available in the United States, a combination of soft, low-gluten cake flour and harder, higher gluten all-purpose flour is needed.  For a crisper crust, increase the amount of all-purpose flour and proportionally decrease the amount of cake flour.  Bread flour, which is very high in gluten, would make the pizza crust too hard.

1) Sprinkle the yeast over the water.  Let stand until the yeast is creamy, about 2 minutes.  Stir until the yeast dissolves.

2) In a large bowl, combine the two flours and the salt.  Add the yeast mixture and stir until a soft dough forms.  Turn the dough out onto a lightly floured surface and knead until smooth and elastic, adding more flour as necessary to make a moist but not sticky dough, about 10 minutes.


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21728
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Flour Substitutions
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2008, 04:07:42 PM »
On the contrary, it even says that additional flour may be necessary, and that doesn't even include the bench flour.


November,

I used your Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator (http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/) using the GM all-purpose flour as a proxy for the KAAP, and I weighed out a cup of the KA cake flour (as a proxy for the Softasilk cake flour), which gave me a total of around 46% hydration for a cup of water weighing 8 ounces. It would be a bit higher less if the water was measured out more accurately. Once in a rare while I will read of a hydration of around 50% for a Neapolitan-style dough but I doubt that anyone will tell you that that is high enough. You have to start at around 55% and go up from there to the extent that the flour can take the higher hydration and the dough maker can handle the higher hydration doughs. I used the textbook feature of your tool. It's hard to imagine how one would be able to measure out "lighter" cups.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 08:18:59 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline JoanNYC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
Re: Flour Substitutions
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2008, 04:37:10 PM »
I probably worked backwards... not having much experience with this

I used the total amount of flour (not approx) and then realized it needed more water

It actually came out pretty good

Better than doughs I made in the past

I remember making one from Marcella Hazan's cookbook using part Semolina

Well, I will be experimenting with different recipes

I am going to look around here later on today to find some of your favorite recipes

I just don't want to make tons of dough which lots of these recipes call for

I would rather make it from scratch each time as I don't have a houseful of people to feed... Just me and my doxie Purl who loves pizza but doesn't get any (maybe a itsy bitsy piece of crust!)

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Flour Substitutions
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2008, 05:44:13 PM »
I used your Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator

Peter,

I assumed as much.  Do you happen to have any mass-volume (and protein for Bel Aria) data for the Bel Aria and King Arthur cake flours that I can add to the food product database?  Am I correct in assuming a cup of Bel Aria flour weighed 121.9 g for you on average?  I don't believe you indicated how much your KA cake flour weighed.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21728
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Flour Substitutions
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2008, 06:10:57 PM »
November,

I was afraid you were going to ask me about more data for the calculator ;D. For purposes of replying to Joan, I just took the four weighings of the four cups of flour. You are correct on the average weight of 121.9 g. (4.30 oz.). I made two 1-cup weighings of the KA cake flour using the textbook method and they were both 3.75 oz.

I was never able to find any useful data on the Bel Aria flour, even from the importer. The data on a bag of the Bel Aria flour says 4 g. of protein for a 140 g. serving size. Clearly, 2.86% can't be right. I once discussed the Bel Aria flour with the importer of the Caputo flours, to whom I was referred by the importer of the Bel Aria flour when they couldn't tell me anything about the flour, and he said that he thought that the Bel Aria flour was at about 10% protein. I wouldn't want to hang my hat on that number.

As time permits, I will make a large number of weighings of the Bel Aria and KA cake flours using the different size measuring cups. Although I store my flours in a cooler part of my home, I am sure that they are over a year old. So I don't know how much that might affect the numbers and their reliability.

Peter

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: Flour Substitutions
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2008, 11:14:45 PM »
I was afraid you were going to ask me about more data for the calculator ;D.

Peter,

I'm just thinking of saving you some work in the long run.  The sooner I get data for those flours, the sooner you can stop manually measuring every time a recipe shows up on the forum using those flours.  I certainly don't benefit from having the data.  I don't think I would ever use those flours.

I noticed the 10% protein level stated for the Bel Aria flour in other threads, but I also noticed that it was an educated guess so I never added it to the database.

You would think I would have written some kind of software for logarithmic [base] regression with as much mathematical derivation as I've done for these tools.  That absorption formula that I showed you was still done by hand, and in case you were wondering, was a time-consuming pain in the neck.  Maybe by the time you get around to weighing those two flours, I will have an interface for you to enter your weighings so that the necessary values can be calculated automatically, and perhaps even added to the database without my mediation.

- red.november


 

pizzapan