Author Topic: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?  (Read 182670 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #2120 on: February 23, 2015, 10:53:08 AM »
I also think there is about 20 grams of molasses per medium, and the rest of the sugars comes from some type of dry sugar or a clear liquid sugar (i.e., not a "refined white sugar").
PrimeRib,

As you know, the meaning of "refined white sugar" had been much debated in this thread. In fact, this morning, I searched the thread using "refined white sugar" as keywords and got 43 hits. As you also know, at its website, MM has said that it uses no refined white sugar in its dough (http://mellowmushroom.com/philosophy) and, in this regard, has been consistent since its founding in 1974. Query: By saying that it uses no refined white sugar in its dough does MM mean that it uses "unrefined" white sugars, whatever that might be, or are they merely trying to appease and appeal to a customer base that demands a more natural and pure product and to whom "refined" is a dirty word? Interestingly, I also noticed that at its website, MM does not mention molasses as one of its dough ingredients. It mentions the high protein unbleached flour and the Appalachian spring water, but not the molasses. Why would they omit the molasses, a key and critical component of its dough that distinguishes MM from its competitors?

I'm not sure that we can conclude that MM is using something more than molasses as a sweetener for its dough. However, if you were to ask me to give you some examples of unrefined white sugars, I could do so. In fact, I gave one such example in the last paragraph of Reply 1510 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3940.msg175533;topicseen#msg175533. My list of unrefined white sugars might be shorter than others because I do not completely trust the industry's definitions of the term "refined". As I previously reported, I once looked at the sugar products in my supermarket and I was surprised by how many of the producers described their sugars as pure or raw or natural when many of such products looked like white refined sugars to me. There was just too much self-serving puffery for me. That said, if I were to be convinced that MM is using something more than just molasses, I would  personally lean toward a cane syrup product, like the Steen's, or something similar to that, such as an evaporated cane juice product, as an unrefined white sugar. And it would be combined with molasses, mostly to get a better color and sweetness match since products like the Steen's are lighter in color and sweeter than the more traditional molasses products.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #2121 on: February 23, 2015, 11:16:02 AM »
When I use molasses to fill in the nutritional number for sugars, which numbers I think are overall incorrect on protein and fiber, but accurate on sugars, the dough it too dark. Thats why I think MM is playing with words when using "no refined white sugar."  To match both the color and sweetness, a sugar of some sort, in conjunction with molasses, is likely being used.

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #2122 on: February 24, 2015, 02:03:44 PM »

Finally. when I calculated the water content for a dough using the above formulation, it was 40.15%.


Is the 40.15% water content of the dough ball based upon water added (i.e., water and the water content of molasses), or does the 40.15% also account for the moisture component of the "dry" ingredients (i.e., flour has 10-15% moisture content)? 

If it is based upon water added, then the dough would have a traditional hydration rating of 67% (as that term is typically used in a bakers percent recipe to represent the water added). 

If it is based upon the total volume of water in the 18 ounce dough ball regardless of the source of the water, then the traditional “hydration” value will be lower. 

From the looks of the recipe in your post from  February 04, 2015, 04:06:00 PM, the 40.15% water content represents the moisture weight in the dough ball from all sources.  If that is the case, then the February 04, 2015, 04:06:00 PM recipe has a traditional hydration rating of 53.7% (based upon 305.1 grams flour, 154.75 grams of water and the water content of the molasses, say 25% of 37.17 grams = 9.3 grams, so 154.75 plus 9.3 equals about 164, divided by 305.1, equals 53.7% traditional hydration).  With only 1.9% oil, the traditional effective hydration (adding the % oil to the % water) would be 55.6%. 

Does effective hydration of 55.6% seem on the low side?  I know some MMs workers can toss the MM dough like crazy, and my reading on tossable dough indicates a lower hydration is better, so maybe 55.6% is an accurate measure of the traditional effective hydration rating for MM dough.   
 

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #2123 on: February 24, 2015, 03:19:24 PM »
Is the 40.15% water content of the dough ball based upon water added (i.e., water and the water content of molasses), or does the 40.15% also account for the moisture component of the "dry" ingredients (i.e., flour has 10-15% moisture content)? 

If it is based upon water added, then the dough would have a traditional hydration rating of 67% (as that term is typically used in a bakers percent recipe to represent the water added). 

If it is based upon the total volume of water in the 18 ounce dough ball regardless of the source of the water, then the traditional “hydration” value will be lower. 

From the looks of the recipe in your post from  February 04, 2015, 04:06:00 PM, the 40.15% water content represents the moisture weight in the dough ball from all sources.  If that is the case, then the February 04, 2015, 04:06:00 PM recipe has a traditional hydration rating of 53.7% (based upon 305.1 grams flour, 154.75 grams of water and the water content of the molasses, say 25% of 37.17 grams = 9.3 grams, so 154.75 plus 9.3 equals about 164, divided by 305.1, equals 53.7% traditional hydration).  With only 1.9% oil, the traditional effective hydration (adding the % oil to the % water) would be 55.6%. 

Does effective hydration of 55.6% seem on the low side?  I know some MMs workers can toss the MM dough like crazy, and my reading on tossable dough indicates a lower hydration is better, so maybe 55.6% is an accurate measure of the traditional effective hydration rating for MM dough.   
 
PrimeRib,

Those are all good questions.

By way of background, the roughly 40% number came as a result of hydration bake tests that Norma and Chicago Bob conducted with real MM doughs. I later achieved the same numbers with some of my MM clone doughs on which I conducted my own hydration bake tests. That gave me some confidence in the water content of the MM clone doughs. By "water content", I mean the totality of the water that is bound up in the flour, the formula water, and the water content of the molasses products. Under U.S. law, the FDA says that the moisture content of flour cannot exceed 15% (http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=137.105) but most domestic white flours typically are at around 14%. However, the actual moisture content of the flour can fall below that as the flour moves through the distribution channel and ends up in warehouses and, eventually, the users' facitilies, whether it is a bakery or a consumer's home. To cite an example, a sample of the Gigantic flour was tested by an outside laboratory and the moisture content of that flour was 12.22%, as noted in the nutrition document at http://cdnimg3.webstaurantstore.com/documents/nutrition/104gigantic.pdf. Since I don't know in any given instance what the actual moisture content is for a flour that I am studying, I use the 14% number. If it so happens that I add vital wheat gluten (VWG) or wheat germ, which have generic moisture contents of 8.2% and about 11%, respectively, I take those water contents into account when I do my calculations although as a practical matter they do not move the water needle much.

As for the water content of molasses, the typical water content of a generic molasses is 22%, but for a product like the Steen's 100% pure cane syrup, it is between 23-25%. So, when I come up with MM clone dough formulations using these products, including blends, I take the water content of those products into account when I do my calculations of the total water content of the dough in question.

Normally, when we talk about formula hydration, we don't usually talk about the moisture content of the flour or other ingredients that contain water, but to have a better understanding of the actual hydration, it makes sense to take into account the water content of ingredients other than the flour that do contain water. It might be eggs, or milk, or liquid sweeteners, or beer, or whatever. Factoring the water contents of these ingredients into the hydration calculus gives us a better idea as to what the actual hydration of a dough is. I would not consider a hydration number in the mid-50% range in cases like this to be unusual. Adding oil to the equation will increase that number, and gives us the effective hydration of the dough. I have long believed that MM uses a high protein. high gluten flour and a relatively low hydration value (nominal and as adjusted as discussed above) so that the dough in the hands of young, often transient workers is idiot-proof. In my mind, that is the genius of what MM has done. Workers are able to easily toss and spin skins and if tears develop they fix them and move on.

To cite a specific example of the above matters, yesterday and today I played around with an MM clone dough formulation for an 18-ounce dough ball that was based on using the nutrition information for the Gigantic flour (as given in the above referenced pdf document) and a molasses blend of 65% Steen's and 35% Grandma's Original molasses. My calculations were premised by the MM nutrition information. This is what I ended up with:

Gigantic High Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (49.54%):
IDY (0.60%):
Salt (1.81209%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.55067%):
Steen's/Grandma's Molasses Blend (11.3685%):
Total (164.87126%):
309.51 g  |  10.92 oz | 0.68 lbs
153.33 g  |  5.41 oz | 0.34 lbs
1.86 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
5.61 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
4.8 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.06 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
35.19 g | 1.24 oz | 0.08 lbs
510.3 g | 18 oz | 1.13 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

As you can see, the nominal hydration is only 49.54%. But when you add in the roughly 8.2 grams of water in the molasses blend, the adjusted hydration becomes about 52.2%. And when you add in the roughly 1.55% soybean oil, the effective hydration becomes about 53.75%. When I calculated the total water content of the dough, using the more standard 14% number for the flour which I deem to be more typical for a fresh flour, it was 40.14%. Since I don't have access to the Gigantic flour, I cannot say with certainty how the above formulation will work out but I know that I can always tweak the dough with whatever flour I do use if it is too dry by adding a bit more water.

Each MM clone dough formulation stands on its own and will vary depending on the type of flour used and the molasses or molasses blend used.

Peter




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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #2124 on: February 26, 2015, 10:08:40 AM »
How would corn syrup work in place of Steen's Pure Cane Syrup?  I'm not sure we have Steen's in Oregon.

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #2125 on: February 26, 2015, 11:58:29 AM »
How would corn syrup work in place of Steen's Pure Cane Syrup?  I'm not sure we have Steen's in Oregon.
hockman4357,

The matter of using corn syrup, and also high fructose corn syrup (HFCS), to make a clone MM dough came up several times in the course of this thread but we considered them to be refined sugars and, hence, did not explore them much further although one member opined that MM might have been using corn syrup at Reply 453 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3940.msg157682;topicseen#msg157682. Whether it is possible to make a credible MM clone dough using corn syrup or HFCS is hard to say but ACH Food Companies, the producer of the Karo corn syrups, says in its FAQ section, at http://karosyrup.com/faq.html, that it does not recommend that corn syrup be substituted for molasses because the finished product will have different flavor characteristics. Yet, in the same FAQs, Karo says that their dark corn syrup is made with refiners' syrup, a type of molasses. I have seen blends of cane syrup and corn syrup, such as the Alaga syrup at http://www.amazon.com/Alaga-Original-Syrup-Single-Bottle/dp/B0043JBBYI/ref=pd_sim_sbs_gro_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1D7H7C3NW8EQ2DCY9M1T, but I have never seen it in any markets near me, and is likely also to be unavailable to you where you are in Oregon unless, of course, you order it from Amazon, as you could also do with the Steen's although I wouldn't recommend it because of the exorbitant prices (http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Asteens%20cane%20syrup). Steen's also sells its products from its website at http://www.steensyrup.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=STEENS&Category_Code=SYR but not by the single bottle.

If a product like Steen's is not readily available, I would recommend using a standard middle-of-the-road supermarket molasses like Grandma's Original molasses. The problem with most supermarket molasses products is that they yield a dough that is too dark when used in an amount to achieve the desired degree of crust sweetness. However, while I have not tried it, it may be possible to dilute a molasses like the Grandma's Original molasses (or even a darker form of molasses) to make it lighter in color and lower the hydration of the dough to compensate for the water added to the molasses to dilute it. A possible downside of diluting the molasses is that you may end up with a reduced sweetness level. The reason I suggested using the Steen's cane syrup is because it is sweeter than the standard forms of molasses. The downside of the Steen's if used alone is that it yields a more golden color than a brown- or tan-like color. The blend I proposed is intended to achieve a compromise between color and sweetness.

Peter



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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #2126 on: February 26, 2015, 06:22:54 PM »
hockman4357,

The matter of using corn syrup, and also high fructose corn syrup (HFCS), to make a clone MM dough came up several times in the course of this thread but we considered them to be refined sugars and, hence, did not explore them much further although one member opined that MM might have been using corn syrup at Reply 453 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3940.msg157682;topicseen#msg157682. Whether it is possible to make a credible MM clone dough using corn syrup or HFCS is hard to say but ACH Food Companies, the producer of the Karo corn syrups, says in its FAQ section, at http://karosyrup.com/faq.html, that it does not recommend that corn syrup be substituted for molasses because the finished product will have different flavor characteristics. Yet, in the same FAQs, Karo says that their dark corn syrup is made with refiners' syrup, a type of molasses. I have seen blends of cane syrup and corn syrup, such as the Alaga syrup at http://www.amazon.com/Alaga-Original-Syrup-Single-Bottle/dp/B0043JBBYI/ref=pd_sim_sbs_gro_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1D7H7C3NW8EQ2DCY9M1T, but I have never seen it in any markets near me, and is likely also to be unavailable to you where you are in Oregon unless, of course, you order it from Amazon, as you could also do with the Steen's although I wouldn't recommend it because of the exorbitant prices (http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Asteens%20cane%20syrup). Steen's also sells its products from its website at http://www.steensyrup.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=STEENS&Category_Code=SYR but not by the single bottle.

If a product like Steen's is not readily available, I would recommend using a standard middle-of-the-road supermarket molasses like Grandma's Original molasses. The problem with most supermarket molasses products is that they yield a dough that is too dark when used in an amount to achieve the desired degree of crust sweetness. However, while I have not tried it, it may be possible to dilute a molasses like the Grandma's Original molasses (or even a darker form of molasses) to make it lighter in color and lower the hydration of the dough to compensate for the water added to the molasses to dilute it. A possible downside of diluting the molasses is that you may end up with a reduced sweetness level. The reason I suggested using the Steen's cane syrup is because it is sweeter than the standard forms of molasses. The downside of the Steen's if used alone is that it yields a more golden color than a brown- or tan-like color. The blend I proposed is intended to achieve a compromise between color and sweetness.

Peter
Thanks so much for the response, Peter.  Just for the heck of it, I am going to make a 16" Mellow Mushroom pizza in accordance with the recipe that you posted above but use a 50/50 combination of Karo Dark Syrup and Grandma's Molasses for the molasses component.  I will be letting the dough rest in the fridge for 24 hours then set it out for 2 hours at room temperature prior to baking.  In addition, I am going to bake the pizza on 1/2" steel preheated for 2 hours on the center rack of my oven most likely for 10-12 minutes.   I'll post the outcome of this experiment.

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #2127 on: February 26, 2015, 07:05:07 PM »
hockman4537,

The 18-ounce dough ball is intended to make a medium pizza, which is 16" in diameter.

The formulation I posted and that you plan to use was developed for a frozen MM clone dough. MM distributes fresh dough to its stores in the area around Atlanta, GA but everyone else gets frozen dough balls. I don't know if the fresh dough balls have the same amount of yeast as the frozen ones but my practice for a two-day cold fermented dough would be to use quite a bit less yeast. Maybe something around 0.35% IDY or maybe a bit more due to the relative stiffness of the dough.

You should also watch the bottom crust color development during the bake because of the high sugar content of the dough, which can cause the bottom crust to turn brown fairly quickly and possibly burn.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #2128 on: February 26, 2015, 08:06:57 PM »
hockman4537,

The 18-ounce dough ball is intended to make a medium pizza, which is 16" in diameter.

The formulation I posted and that you plan to use was developed for a frozen MM clone dough. MM distributes fresh dough to its stores in the area around Atlanta, GA but everyone else gets frozen dough balls. I don't know if the fresh dough balls have the same amount of yeast as the frozen ones but my practice for a two-day cold fermented dough would be to use quite a bit less yeast. Maybe something around 0.35% IDY or maybe a bit more due to the relative stiffness of the dough.

You should also watch the bottom crust color development during the bake because of the high sugar content of the dough, which can cause the bottom crust to turn brown fairly quickly and possibly burn.

Peter
Good info, Peter.  I am going with a 24-ounce dough ball for my 16" pizza using All Trumps flour.  I will make the dough tonight about 7 and take it out of the refer tomorrow night about 7 for a 2 hour room temp rise prior to baking.  I left the IDY at 0.60% but maybe I should cut back to 0.50% with the 24 hour cold ferment.  I will indeed watch the bottom of the crust carefully.  Maybe I should cook it at 450 instead of 500.  Thinking out loud.

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hockman4357,

I wish you luck with your MM clone, and look forward to your report on the results you achieve.

In a home setting, we are limited as the types of sweeteners that might work to get one within earshot of a real MM pizza. I routinely check the sections of the supermarkets around me where the molasses and molasses-like products are stocked and invariably there is only one or two of such products. I know that in other parts of the country, such as in the South, there are many more retail options, such as cane syrup "molasses", a combination of cane syrup and molasses, and various combinations of cane syrup and corn syrup. Most of these products were created for other than use in pizza dough or commercial high-volume dough production. Of course, it is possible to take a basic supermarket molasses, from first boil to third boil, and add any number of other sweeteners to that core product, including honey, raw and refined sugars, corn syrup, liquid barley malt, sorghum, etc., in the hope of getting something that is a credible MM clone and that you can enjoy eating. In cases like this, there will always be differences in the color and sweetness of the finished crusts. And there will always be different olfactory and other sensory systems among people that dictate how they perceive taste, sweetness and smell.

Peter


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Friday night's Mellow Mushroom pepperoni pizza.  I used a 50/50 combo of Karo Dark Syrup and Grandma's Molasses with a 24 hour cold ferment followed by 2 hours at room temperature and a 425 degree bake on 1/2" steel. 

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   Nice pizza hockman.  I think the color on that crust looks very good. I know it is difficult to tell with internet pics but I think you did real well as far as MM coloring goes. Crumb looks right too.  Good job!  :chef:
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Friday night's Mellow Mushroom pepperoni pizza.  I used a 50/50 combo of Karo Dark Syrup and Grandma's Molasses with a 24 hour cold ferment followed by 2 hours at room temperature and a 425 degree bake on 1/2" steel.
hockman4357,

Your pizza does look like the photos of some of the MM pizzas I have seen. Can you tell me how long the pizza baked on the steel? Because the bottom crust was darker than the top crust at the rim, if you repeat the experiment you might cut down on the bake time on the steel and raise the pizza to the top oven rack position to get more top heat.

The most important question is whether you liked the pizza and, if so, why, and if not, why? Or any other comments, suggestions or observations for that matter.

Peter