Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 278293 times)

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Offline HBolte

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #825 on: April 08, 2015, 12:38:01 PM »
After more careful reading of this thread I see that baking on the stone caused the dark bottom. Next week I'll use a screen!
Hans


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #826 on: April 08, 2015, 12:50:02 PM »
After more careful reading of this thread I see that baking on the stone caused the dark bottom. Next week I'll use a screen!
Hans,

This is a matter that comes up from time to time but some members have chosen to use a pizza stone instead of a screen. My advice to them is to closely monitor the bottom crust color development and be prepared to either pull the pizza sooner or raise the pizza to a higher oven position to escape the heat from the bottom heating coil (or its equivalent) but being careful as not to let the top of the pizza burn because of the increased top heat. I only used a screen for my experiments because I was trying to simulate what Papa John's does with its conveyor ovens.

Peter

Offline The Lord Of The Pizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #827 on: April 08, 2015, 03:39:39 PM »
The Lord of The Pizza,

Given the choice between (1) a PJ clone dough formulation that comes closest to what PJ does based on my research and analysis but is not the easiest to replicate in a home setting, or (2) a PJ clone dough formulation that comes reasonably close to what PJ does but is much easier to replicate in a home setting, which would you choose? Or maybe you would like one of each. ;D

Remember that we can never quite replicate in a home setting what PJ does because we won't have access to the flour that PJ uses (it is milled from a special strain of Kansas wheat exclusively for PJ) and a standard home oven is not a conveyor oven. Also, our home refrigerators cannot maintain temperatures like PJ's commissaries and refrigerated trucks that deliver fresh dough balls to most of its stores twice a week.

Peter
Both, my friend, if its not too much to ask.  This is right up my alley.  I love to make nearly identical versions and then do blind taste tests.  This will be great fun and the pizza will be awesome!  I will do pics and everything!
Cooking can be a reflection of your approach to everything. Do the best that you can and if you burn the toast, do it again, right.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #828 on: April 08, 2015, 07:14:55 PM »
Both, my friend, if its not too much to ask.  This is right up my alley.  I love to make nearly identical versions and then do blind taste tests.  This will be great fun and the pizza will be awesome!  I will do pics and everything!
The Lord of the Pizza,

The harder of the two PJ clone dough formulations is the one given in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58197#msg58197. Since I posted that particular formulation, I learned that PJ uses a dough ball weight of 20 ounces instead of 21 ounces. So, if you'd like, you can use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html to adjust the amounts of ingredients. There were also changes in the amounts of sugar and oil and salt that I made based on information that was not available at the time I posted Reply 2 but I don't think the changes will be noticeable in the finished product.

The easier PJ clone dough formulation is the one at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217. That may well be the most popular PJ clone dough formulation in this thread. Its advantage is that it only takes two days to make the pizza, whereas the one in Reply 2 takes at least five days. You will also note from Edit 2 at the bottom of the page of Reply 20 that I provided a link to an updated version of the original PJ clone dough formulation in Reply 10. The updated version reflects the changes mentioned above. It's up to you which version you would like to use.

Peter

Offline HBolte

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #829 on: April 13, 2015, 01:23:22 PM »
Tried a two day ferment. Reply #20. It was not that great. Not sure what I did wrong but the crust was very much like a Wonder bread texture. The exterior was soft, cornicione was like white bread, tiny holes no chew at all.  I'll have to try again.

No reflection on Pete!

Hans

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #830 on: April 14, 2015, 09:45:05 AM »
Tried a two day ferment. Reply #20. It was not that great. Not sure what I did wrong but the crust was very much like a Wonder bread texture. The exterior was soft, cornicione was like white bread, tiny holes no chew at all.  I'll have to try again.

No reflection on Pete!
Hans,

I appreciate the feedback even if you did not care for the pizza.

If you'd care to give me the details about how you made the dough and pizza, including and brand of flour that you used, maybe I can determine what governed your results.

Peter

Offline HBolte

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #831 on: April 15, 2015, 10:34:13 AM »
Thanks Pete, I'll try one more time and let you know.
Hans

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #832 on: April 15, 2015, 11:25:58 AM »
Thanks Pete, I'll try one more time and let you know.
Hans,

There are a few things to keep in mind. First, you may want to use bread flour or better protein-wise, and also keep the kneading of the dough on the brief side, to the stage where the dough is slightly underkneaded. If the dough is overkneaded, it can take on the character of a bread dough (with substantial gluten development), and the crust can develop a breadlike character with small, tight alveoles of similar size and little in the way of openness of the crumb. Another point to keep in mind is that a dough with a lot of sugar and oil will produce a tender crust since the sugar will act to retain moisture (it is a hygroscopic substance) and the oil will act to reduce evaporation of the moisture in the dough. Tenderness of the crust goes with the territory at the amounts of sugar and oil you used. You might try using a slightly higher hydration and a longer bake at a lower oven temperature to dry out the crust, including making it crispier, so that it doesn't seem as breadlike. Keeping the rim on the small side might also mitigate a breadlike crust.

Peter

Offline David Esq.

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #833 on: April 15, 2015, 12:48:31 PM »
I suppose that to each pizza lover there is a different ideal for their pizza.  The other day, I was passing a Papa John's and decided to give it a go.  The crust was nice and tender but it definitely did not present me with a wow factor that would make me want to create it at home or go back for another slice. 

Now pizza hut... that is another story. :)


Offline Rangulf

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #834 on: May 18, 2015, 04:07:16 AM »
Hey there Pete-zza.

I'd like to say thanks for all your hard work in reverse-engineering various pizza dishes. I like the science and investigation you've done in creating a clone of Papa John's pizza dough recipe.

Anyway, I tried the recipe using volume measurements in the first page, reducing the amount to make a 12 inch pizza using the dough calculator. I didn't have access to all the brand products used by Pete in the first page, so I made do with what I found in the nearby store. Instead of King Arthur bread flour (which we don't have here) I used Dough-It-All Bread flour. Sadly, there weren't any markings or notes that mention how much protein% that brand of flour has, all it mentioned was it was bread flour. I used Eagle brand for my IDY, mixed them together with the rest of the ingredients (by hand, sadly) as dictated in the first post, and let it refrigerate for 5 days before using the dough.

I didn't have a scale at hand, so I used a volume to mass converter I randomly found by googling. Also, my oven only goes up to 250^C (or just above 500^F), and I didn't have a pizza screen at hand. Instead I purchased a perforated pan so I don't know how that affected the final result. I also didn't have a dough mixer or a food processor, so I did all the mixing by hand.

Anyway, pics of my first attempt at making pizza from scratch below (Obviously, being my 1st pizza, it wasn't round at all. The hallmark of a beginner I believe :D ). The funniest thing tho, the pizza tasted EXACTLY like Greenwich Pizza (A local pizza chain here in the Philippines) instead of Papa John's, mine tasted slightly more breadier than PJ's, but it was the SAME as Greenwich. I even had a friend do a blind test where he ate my pizza and I asked him "Where did that pizza come from?" and he immediately said Greenwich (Which is not bad at all, it just wasn't PJ's).

Now I had Papa John's just a few days ago, and their pizza had a better crunch than mine, and was definitely a bit flakier on the crust and a chewier dough overall, and they've got that nice air holes in the crust that I'm missing. Any suggestions on how to achieve that texture? Should I have let it bake in the oven for more than 8 minutes on the bottom rack? Should I have moved it higher? Or is the whole thing a product of the flour itself?

I'm thinking of experimenting with the sugar/yeast amounts on the next pizza to get a more flakey crust if that's even related. Do you think that's a good idea?

Anyway, thanks again for this :)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 05:13:14 AM by Rangulf »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #835 on: May 18, 2015, 11:15:07 AM »
Rangulf,

All things considered, I think you did a very good job with your pizza. It looks like you unknowingly cloned the Greenwich Pizzeria pizza ;D. That would suggest that Greenwich uses a fair amount of oil and sugar in their dough. I found their website at http://www.greenwich.com.ph/ but I did not see any ingredients lists or nutrition information to be able to tell you what they appear to be doing with their dough. Or any other part of their pizza.

Even in the U.S. it is a challenge to try to reverse engineer and clone the PJ pizzas. We just don't have access to the brands of ingredients and suppliers that PJ uses to make its pizzas. And home ovens are not the same as conveyor ovens. You can see some of the differences if you do a Google Image search of actual PJ pizzas. And even then, you will note that there are a lot of differences in the appearance of the pizzas made in the various PJ stores. And I am willing to bet that the pizzas will also taste different and have different textural qualities and characteristics because of these differences. The variations are inevitable when you have thousands of stores across the world operating on their own even when they are given all of the training and tools and manuals to make what PJ corporate considers their ideal pizza.

I note that you used a perforated disk to bake your pizza. For many years PJ used screens but in recent years it has been going to perforated disks in many of its stores. Unfortunately, while perforated disks appear to work well in PJ's conveyor ovens, in my experience they do not work particularly well in my standard home oven. They are prone to warping or buckling at the desired oven bake temperature, and the bottom crust development is not as good as with screens in my home oven because it takes time for the disks to reach the necessary bake temperature before good crust development can take place. Also, the oven spring is not as good. That is perhaps why you did not get a more open and airy crumb at the rim. In your case, you might try starting your pizza at the lowest oven rack position and with the oven at its highest operation temperature to maximize the oven spring as much as possible. Once it appears that the maximum oven spring has occurred, I would then lower the oven temperature and let the pizza bake longer than usual to get it to dry out more and be a bit chewier and less bread like. If needed, you can move the pizza to an upper rack position in your oven to get more top crust development and more cooking of the cheese and toppings if needed. I discussed several ways of using a home oven at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965. Maybe you will get some useful tips from that post to help you with your oven and disk.

If you decide to try the same PJ clone recipe again, I suggest that you use the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to convert from weight to volume for the flour once you have the amounts of ingredients you would plan to use to make the desired size of pizza. I would use the Textbook flour Measurement Method to do the flour conversion, and I would use either the General Mills Harvest King or King Arthur bread flour as a proxy for the bread flour that you have available to you in the Philippines. This is not a perfect method but it is more accurate than any other conversion methods I have seen. Only a decent scale is the solution to accuracy of weights of ingredients. The fact that you do not have a mixer or food processor should not be a deterrent to making a decent PJ clone. In fact, I described a method for hand kneading a PJ clone dough at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg66312#msg66312.

At this point, I would prefer to defer making changes to the sugar and oil in your next PJ clone until we see if you get better results following the suggestions given above. Reducing the sugar and oil will make for a more tender crust but you might be able to get the results you are after without making changes in those ingredients. Some members use pizza stones to get similar results but such use necessitates close monitoring of the bottom crust bake to be sure that the bottom crust does not brown too quickly, or even burn, because of the high sugar content.

Good luck on your next try and let us know how you make out if you decide to proceed.

Peter


Offline Rangulf

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #836 on: May 18, 2015, 09:53:09 PM »
Thanks for the awesome reply. I'm learning more and more every time I browse through these forums.
 
I see that this might be a temperature game after reading your post on your tips regarding home ovens, so I plan to change things to accommodate that new information. I whipped up a batch this time using the same ingredients and methods as the last time (with slightly less oil this time), and I plan on following your suggestion on playing around with the baking method as soon as the dough is ready in a few days. I plan to set my oven at its maximum temperature about 30 minutes before I start baking the pizza. I'll then place the pizza at the bottom of the rack, and let it bake for about 10 minutes, then reduce the temperature, and let it bake for maybe another 5-10 minutes at the top rack position. I'll take pictures and let you know how this one turns out.

Mighty thanks for that mass-to-volume converter, I bookmarked that immediately for future use, though in the long run the scale is going to be a worthwhile investment. I'll look into pizza screens too since I've been reading in the forums that it's much better than a perforated pan.

I also read somewhere in the forums that someone got good results from a perforated pan and a regular oven b par-baking the crust before using it for the pizza. Would that be advisable?

Thanks again! This thread and forum is such a big help :)

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #837 on: May 19, 2015, 11:54:24 AM »
Rangulf,

With respect to your proposed bake times, I would say that they are too long. Ideally, the entire pizza should be done in about 7-8 minutes depending on the size of your pizzas and what you put on them in the way of cheeses and toppings. My guess is that it should only take a couple of minutes, if that, at the high oven temperature for the oven spring to do its job expanding the rim, and maybe several minutes at the reduced oven temperature to allow the bottom crust to develop the desired color and to dry the dough out to yield a chewier, less bread-like crust. The rest of the time, if needed to get more or better top crust color development or to brown the cheese more or cook the toppings more, should be at a higher oven rack position. I don't recall having to use the broiler element on any of my PJ clone pizzas.

It is important to keep in mind that home ovens can be tricky things. They differ from one brand and style and model to another and from one home setting to another and they can have their own unique designs and idiosyncrasies and peculiarities that force you to adapt to them if you are going to succeed. In this vein, it helps if your oven door has a window so that you can observe what is happening to your pizza as it bakes. Otherwise, you may find that you have to open the oven door from time to time to see what is happening. And with every door opening, you will lose about 50 degrees F in heat. That may increase the total bake time. Your best ally in cases like this is your eyes. As Yogi Berra, the all-time great catcher for the New York Yankees who recently turned ninety, once said: You can observe a lot by watching. ;D The rest is usually the application of logic and common sense and reliance on your natural instincts. But with practice, you should eventually master your oven and succeed. But keep in mind that each style of pizza has its own related set of oven "rules" that you have to master in order to succeed. Success is being able to achieve the needed harmonious relationship between the dough you are using and the oven you are using and how the pizza is baked once in the oven. Without that harmony, you will not get optimum results even though you usually will still be able to eat your sub-par pizzas and maybe some of your failures.

With respect to par-baking crusts, there are some applications, such as with some cracker style pizzas, where pre-baking crusts on perforated disks or cutter pans is a good approach to use, or where crusts are par-baked and stored (at room temperature or in the refrigerator or freezer) for later use, but for an American style pizza like a PJ clone, I would not recommend pre-baking or par-baking the PJ clone crusts. I think it would work for a PJ clone crust but would not produce the optimum results in terms of freshness and taste and texture.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #838 on: May 24, 2015, 09:43:22 AM »
For those who are interested, this article discusses how much it costs to purchase a Papa John's franchise, for which there is special pricing at the moment:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-much-costs-open-papa-132737092.html

Peter

Offline Rangulf

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #839 on: May 24, 2015, 10:04:40 PM »
Welp, a 2nd attempt on the PJ clone. This one turned out better than the first. That trick where you put the pizza on the top rack at the final stretch of baking did wonders for the top crust, the edges finally browned to a somewhat satisfactory point by my standards (I kept a close eye on the entire baking process). Also, I discovered that there wasn't much of a bottom heating element in my current oven, and thus the bottom part of the crust didn't brown as much as I had hoped for. I'll try to use the other oven, which has a bottom heating element to even out the baking process next time.

For this pizza, I used red onions, green peppers, some chopped fried chicken patties mixed with BBQ sauce and pepperoni. It felt like a good party in my mouth that didn't have any direction. :P

Of course, the pizza still wasn't round, but I keep trying. I aim to make at least one pie a week to improve whatever I can in making pizza. These small improvements feel good.

Also, my perforated pan's non-stick coating started to peel off, which gives me a good excuse to look for and buy a pizza screen. Anything I should look out for with regards to screens?

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #840 on: May 25, 2015, 09:50:53 AM »
Rick,

From the top side the latest pizza looks quite good, but the bottom clearly needs more bottom heat. More bottom heat should also produce a better oven spring with a more open crumb. With experience, you should be able to get the pizza to be properly round.

As for pizza screens, there is nothing special that you should look for other than the size. A 14" screen is a good size because it lets you make pizzas up to that size. A 16" size is also good if your oven can handle that size. I know that Sbarro, which is big in the Philippines, uses pizza screens in the U.S. but I don't know if that is true with Sbarro in the Philippines. If so, one of their stores might be able to give you the name of a source for screens.

Peter