Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 241515 times)

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Offline nick57

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #780 on: October 31, 2014, 04:46:54 PM »
Thanks for the info. I'm pretty happy with the 2 day dough, but have been pondering going to 3 days to see if I like it better. I'n not trying to copy PJ's, I like how easy the dough is to work with. A few of my friends who have never made a pie before have followed your directions and have had good luck with it. The dough is great for first timers, and they were all surprised how well their pies turned out, along with myself. Thanks for all your hard work and sharing ;D


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #781 on: October 31, 2014, 05:19:44 PM »
Nick,

I'm glad this thread has been of help to you and your friends. The whole PJ clone experience has been a lot of fun for me and forced me to learn things that were completely unexpected. It is still hard work but in the end I think it is worth it, if only for the knowledge gained from the exercise and knowing that there are people out there taking a stab at the PJ clones.

Peter

Offline dantinap

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #782 on: November 09, 2014, 03:31:22 PM »
Hi guys, I have made this recipe, but with certain variations. I didn't get anything like the result Pete got :-D. Heres what I did, If you don't understand something, let me know please:

I made some variations to the recipe.
The quantities of ingredients used where the same, however, the qualities of ingredients were not.

Flour: used a brand called San Blas, with 11 % protein (can't find a higher protein content in my city, even in major supermarkets)
Water: purified water at 104F
Yeast: Instant yeast. Brand: Saf Instant (the happy baker logo)
Oil: olive oil extra virgin. Brand: Great Value
Salt: table salt. Brand: Fina (local)
Sugar: i guess its normal sugar, a bit brown, with normal size crystals.



I keep my yeast in the fridge, for longer life purposes, inside a small sealed plastic container, which is inside a black plastic bag. My fridge is at 48.2F.
So I followed the mixing instructions. I did the mixing by hand, cause I dont have any mixing machine in this moment.
Dissolved the sugar and salt with the water first, inside a big metal bowl I have.
I started pouring the flour at the bowl, followed by a bit of oil, followed by a bit of flour, and so on, till all the flour and oil were used.
I got the dough to be a single mass, and at this point I opened a whole in the dough, and put almost all of the yeast inside. I sprinkled the remaining yeast all over the surface of the dough.
I kept mixing for like 2 minutes, and then started kneading by hand, using the technique in this video: (), in which they used both hands. The intensity of my kneading was about 47 rolls per minute (like the rolls they show in the video, doing one roll per hand)
 After kneading, for 8 minutes, I made the windowpane test, and wasn't very happy with it. Did the same test at minute 12, and I got a much better outcome; repeated the test at minute 15, and the outcome was the same, but the dough looked shiny and kind of stood its place when I let it rest to check its strength. So at minute 15 I stopped kneading.
Then I shaped the dough into a ball and placed it in a sealed plastic container, without any holes in it, and without any oil, for exactly 5 days in the fridge at around 48F. This ball weighed 600 grs.

When I got the dough out, it had at a temperature of 46F. It looked very opaque, and it looked and felt "hard", cause I pressed my finger against it. It didn't seem to ahve a lot of gases inside, and didn't smell any alcohol, not even a little. It didnt have much bubble circles either. It also looked kind of dry. I checked the bottom of the ball and it was more wet and shiny, the color was more white. The inside of the bowl had water condensation in it. Anyway, I let it rest inside the bowl at room temp, with I guess was about 82F, but with the lid only placed on top, not sealed.
Meanwhile my gas oven preheated and was set to 572F. (It has a stone floor)
After an hour of waiting, the dough had a temperature of 67.9F. It was softer, the wet and shiny side was more wet and shinier, and the dry and opaque side was the same.

I stretched the dough using some flour of the same type to help me. It didn't tear appart. It wasn't that elastic, but it was extensible.
The stretched dough had a diameter of 14.56'', and 0.259'' thick (6 milimeters), at the rims, with the center being a little less thicker.

So I used a pizza sauce I had in the fridge, some cheese and pepperonis, and placed the pizza in the oven, at 572F.
I waited for 8 minutes, checked the pizza and the crust was still white, the pepperonis had started to dry, so did the cheese and the sauce.
I waited for minutes more, at minute 12, and the crust was still the same, but the sauce, cheesed and pepperonis were starting to overcook.
I waited 2 more minutes, at minute 14, and decided to take the pizza out cause I didn't want the toppings to taste like ashes.

So, the crust I got, was way thinner thant Pete's, it was a lot more white. It barely rised in the oven. The final thickness of the rims had gone to 0.43 '' (1.1 cm), and 0.275'' in most of the center, even less in some parts. The rims were dry, and when you pressed them, the surface cracked.

I was expecting a thicker, less dry crust, with more flavour and bit more of "juice". I also wanted the crust to be way more crispy, how can I achieve that? I like really crispy crusts. I want it to be crispy with a brown color. How can I achieve my expectations?.Thanks for reading and for your time! :D



Offline dantinap

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #783 on: November 09, 2014, 03:35:39 PM »
PICTURES:
1.-The first picture is the dough just out of the fridge after the 5 day fermentation
2.-The second picture is the base of the dough, as I said it was more wet and shiny, even more white colored.
3.-Third picture is the thickness of the dough after being completely stretched.
4.-Fourth picture is the base of the crust after being cooked
5.-Fifth picture is the rim after being cooked and pressed down with my finger. It cracked.
6.-Sixth picture is the base of the crust after being cooked. Super white right?
7.-Seventh picture speaks for itself. Well I took a bite before taking the pic, so you could see the inside.
8.-Eight, crust base after being cooked.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #784 on: November 10, 2014, 06:50:35 PM »
dantinap,

It would help to see the amounts of the ingredients you used to make your dough. I assume that you used the PJ clone formulation as set forth at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197. I further assume that you baked the pizza directly on the pizza stone in your oven. Is that correct?

Since my son and his family live in Mexico and I visit them a couple of times a year, I am familiar with the San Blas all-purpose flour as well as a few other Mexican flours. And, like you, I scoured many of the supermarkets and big box stores just about everywhere I visited in Mexico and did not find any stronger flours, although I did often see whole wheat flours (like the La Perla Integral). I have written about Mexican flours on the forum on several occasions, and if you use the Advanced search feature (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=search) and enter the search terms "Mexico flour" (without the quotes) and my forum name (Pete-zza) as user, you will get many posts on my experiences (and my daughter-in-law's experiences) with Mexican flours.

But I can confirm your experience with such flours. Mexican all-purpose flours leave a lot to be desired from a pizza making standpoint. There are perhaps ways of making Mexican all-purpose flours better for pizza making purposes, but you either have to add certain ingredients to the flour, such as vital wheat gluten and dairy whey, neither of which is likely to be found easily in Mexico, or you otherwise have to use the right kind of oven, such as one that has a convection feature. If you don't mind, it would be helpful if you could tell me the ingredients of the San Blas all-purpose flour you used. My recollection is that most Mexican flours include some vitamins, an enzyme (which is likely a fungal amylase or cereal amylase), a bleaching agent, Azodicarbonamide (a dough conditioner and strengthening agent), and ascorbic acid (Vitamin C).

I also recall that one of our members, RamirOk, who also lived in Mexico, made a focaccia using the San Blas all-purpose flour and also some La Perla whole wheat flour, in an 80/20 ratio. As you can see from the photos at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16883.msg164507.html#msg164507, the focaccia had decent color, which was most likely attributable to the La Perla Integral, but the sprinkling of sugar on top of the focaccia may also have added more color. It might be that you can get better results using a similar flour blend, although the final crust may not be the most accurate representation of a Papa John's crust. You might also have to tweak the amount of water to properly hydrate the dough made with the flour blend to achieve a final dough that has the right "feel". I assume that you use a scale and, if so, that would make it easier for you to determine the amounts of flour and water used to make the final dough.

I have a few other observations.

First, when I have made PJ clone doughs, I do not try to knead the dough to the point where it can pass the windowpane test, although no doubt the dough balls made by Papa John's in its commissaries using massive mixers would most likely pass that test. Rather, I rely on the long fermentation window (several days) to achieve biochemical gluten development. You shouldn't need fifteen minutes of hand kneading to make a 600-gram dough ball.

Second, it isn't necessary to use olive oil. Papa John's uses soybean oil, also known as vegetable oil. It perhaps wouldn't matter if the amount of oil used by PJ was on the low side, but in an amount of around 7%, olive oil can impart a distinctive, and somewhat overpowering, taste.

Third, my instructions as to bake temperature for the PJ clone pizzas is to use a temperature of around 500-525 degrees F. I do not have much experience with gas ovens, but I am surprised that you didn't get more bottom crust coloration at your bake temperature of 572 degrees F. I could see that if you used a pan of some sort but not baking the pizza directly on a preheated stone.

Fourth, I think it is best that we defer the issue of increased crispiness of the crust until you are able to achieve even a moderate success with a PJ clone dough.

Fifth, as an alternative option, you might want to try the PJ clone dough formulation as given at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217. That is perhaps the most popular PJ clone dough formulation among our members. But even that formulation can wait.

Peter

Offline dantinap

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #785 on: November 11, 2014, 11:54:24 AM »
Hi Pete, thanks for replying. I did use the amount of ingredients you wrote at Reply 2 at the beginning of this post, and I baked the pizza directly on the pizza stone. :)
I weighed the amounts with a normal kitchen scale (not digital).

Here is the information of the San Bls flour:

Size of portion-----100 grams
Energy-------------337 kcal
Proteins------------11 grams
Carbs--------------71 grams
-From which:
-Sugars------------1 gram
Diet Fiber----------0.05 grams
Fat-----------------1 gram
-From which:
-Saturated Fat-----0.5 gram
Sodium------------75 milligrams
Vitamin B1 tiamin------0.5 milligrams
Vitamin B2 riboflavin---0.3 milligrams
Vitamin b3 niacin------3.5 milligrams
Folic Acid----------0.2 milligrams
Iron (as ferrous ion)---4 milligrams
Zinc-------------- 4 milligrams


On the flour, it is sad that we don't have strong flours here in Mxico :'(. The big chains like Dominos, Pizza Hut and Little Caesars, are here in the city. But I guess they get their special flour manufactured in local Food Chemistry companies, or simply delivered from bigger production centers. There used to be one Papa John's, but It flew like 4 years ago.
Anyway, I have some theories of why I got these outcomes.  ??? from some stuff I noted at the final baked dough.

-The thing that surprised me the most is that, at the 5th day, I got the dough out of the fridge, and it didn't have any alcohol smell, and didnt look like it had a lot of gases inside. So maybe fermentation never took place, or it did but at a minimal amount. The reason for  this could be the temperature of the yeast I used. It was of 45F when I measured it just out of the fridge. And I DIDN'T proof it before mixing (It's an instant rise yeast, Saf Instant brand). I used water at about 86F on the mixing. So maybe the yeast never woke up, or only a few of it did. 
So, two days ago,I had to check if the yeast was still working. I took the yeast container out of the fridge, left it outside for a day to get it to room temperature (which got to 82.4F), and checked if there was something wrong with it. I used water at 98.6F, put the yeast inside and 1 tsp of sugar. It took 14 minutes for the yeast to start bubbling. So maybe when I mixed the ingredients in my "fail attempt", the yeast, which was way colder, did not have enough time to start working, before going to the fridge for fermentation.

-Despite using the amount of water and oil the recipe signaled, the final baked dough was dry. When I opened the bowl where the dough was rising, it had water condensation on the inside. The surface was dry, but the bottom was not. So im not sure, but I guess that the water moisture left the dough and condensed on the bowl walls. I didn't use any oil coating on the ball, so that might have left the door open, for the water to escape.

-Another theorie, which I hope is not true at the end, is that something is wrong with my oven. It is only like 2 months old. And I have made pizza doughs that got brown and crispy. So maybe I didn't pre heat the oven long enough (I am measuring this time), and maybe the oven wasn't really at 572F, due to fabric issues, or something bad going on in the gas supply for the oven, or who knows what.

So yesterday I tried to change these things on the recipe. Instead of making one ball weighing 600 grs, I adjusted the indications to make 3 balls weighing 300 grs each. Just an idea I had so I could learn more about the changes happening during the rising phase, and without using 600 grs in each "experiment".

Everything was the same, the kneading time, the mixing process, the fridge temp. Except for these changes:

-Baker's percents are the same, except for sugar.  I added 50% more sugar on the recipe >:D (To get crispier and brownier crust)
-This time the yeast I used was not on 45F when mixing, it was of 82.4F. (to avoid yeast sleeping during fermentation)
-I coated each of the three dough balls with a bit of olive oil, in the surface and also the bottom of the bowl where fermentation would occur. (to avoid lost of moisture)

Maybe with more gases and less moisture loss, the dough thickness and "mood" will be close to a PJ pizza.

I made this yesterday on nov/10/2014. I am checking the outcomes on each of the three doughs, and cooking one on the 3rd day, one on the 4th day, and the last on the 5th day.
I'll comeback with pics.






Offline nick57

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #786 on: November 12, 2014, 09:54:02 PM »
"First, when I have made PJ clone doughs, I do not try to knead the dough to the point where it can pass the windowpane test, although no doubt the dough balls made by Papa John's in its commissaries using massive mixers would most likely pass that test. Rather, I rely on the long fermentation window (several days) to achieve biochemical gluten development. You shouldn't need fifteen minutes of hand kneading to make a 600-gram dough ball."

 Pete, I was wondering about the windowpane test. I do knead it till the dough passes. It takes about 6 minutes in the KA mixer to get there. I usually only do the two day rest. The crust is very crispy, but has a nice chew. The two pies I made last week had a TF of about 0.08. They did not droop like a NY type. If I wanted the crust to droop more, would upping the hydration do that.  Should I on the next PJ clone cut back on the knead time? Those maybe dumb questions, but I was thinking out loud.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #787 on: November 13, 2014, 11:20:53 AM »
Nick,

Like you, in the early days of my pizza making "career", way back in 2004, I also used the standard windowpane test. In good measure, my use was based on the fact that several well known bakers and cooks at the time used that method, including Peter Reinhart, Alton Brown and Jeffrey Steingarten. It wasn't until I had an exchange with Tom Lehmann in which I had mentioned the windowpane test in passing (I had originally asked him for advice on other matters) that he told me to forget the windowpane test. You can see the substance of that exchange at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5319.html#msg5319. From that time on, I pretty much stopped using the windowpane test but I continued to post on this subject from time to time since the matter of windowpaning a dough would come up from time to time with new (and existing) members. As examples of posts where I further elaborated on the windowpane test, see Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5083.msg43133.html#msg43133, Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12291.msg116476/topicseen.html#msg116476, and Reply 440 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28694/topicseen.html#msg28694.

Interestingly, I later got the impression from member John Fazzari (fazzari) that Peter Reinhart had moved away from the idea of windowpaning, as I so noted at Reply 27 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14038.msg141035#msg141035. However, it is not clear what motivated such a change.

As for how to get more "tip" droop for your PJ clone slices, that is not something I specifically tried to do with my PJ clone doughs in this thread because I was trying to emulate as much as possible the dough formulation that PJ was using, which I concluded from my research and analysis suggested a nominal hydration value of less than 60%. However, I had previously done a fair amount of experimentation with a version of a PJ clone dough that member Randy had come up with before I embarked on the work I described in this thread. And his version called for a higher nominal hydration value than I used for my PJ clone doughs, as well as a fair amount of honey and oil that, together with the higher nominal hydration value, resulted in a dough with an "effective" hydration that was similar to the effective hydration of a typical PJ clone dough as described in this thread.

However, as I noted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310, Randy used a thickness factor (around 0.126-0.141) that was quite a bit more than I wanted to use (around 0.105-0.11), given that I was trying to come up with a "thin" version of Randy's PJ clone (as the topic heading made clear). So, I played around a lot with Randy's formulation and eventually came up with a formulation that was essentially a cross, or hybrid, between an American style (from an ingredients standpoint) and a NY style (from a crust thickness standpoint), with a thickness factor of 0.10. And that formulation led to a pizza where the slices had that NY "tip droop". The post that describes all of this is Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15953.html#msg15953. As you will see from Reply 8, the effective hydration is considerably higher than for the PJ clone doughs discussed in this thread. I mention all of this because you might be able to increase the nominal hydration of a PJ clone dough, such as the one you have been using, but you may have to decrease the thickness factor to get the tip droop. You might even try the dough formulation as set forth at Reply 8 to see if that takes you in the right direction. Who knows? You might even like that version better than the ones you have been making.

Peter


Offline nick57

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #788 on: November 13, 2014, 03:26:03 PM »
Thanks Pete! That's a lot of great info. I may try your version of Randy's pie, it looks like it might be a fun experiment. I've been doing some different things with your PJ's clone. It's a great starting point to try some different hydrations and TF's.  Who knows, I may come up with a combination I really like. I have not had a failure yet with your clone. Thanks again. :)

Offline aspendos

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #789 on: December 07, 2014, 06:06:53 PM »
I am going to make pj clone pizza this week. How much gramm dough ball should i use for 12" pizza?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #790 on: December 07, 2014, 06:36:49 PM »
I am going to make pj clone pizza this week. How much gramm dough ball should i use for 12" pizza?
aspendos,

I would use 14.5 ounces, or about 411 grams.

Peter

Offline aspendos

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #791 on: December 15, 2014, 07:26:58 AM »
Here is pete's papa john clone.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #792 on: December 15, 2014, 09:07:00 AM »
aspendos,

From the crust standpoint, your PJ clone pizza looks a lot like one of the PJ professionally photographed pizzas, as noted below. How did you like the pizza?

Peter

Offline aspendos

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #793 on: December 15, 2014, 09:17:05 AM »
Hi Peter

i dont know how real papajohn pizzas taste  but this one tasted great. You recommend high protein flour with min 13%. I still cant find any high gluten high protein flour in germany.  I used bread flour with 11% and some diastatic malt. I baked at between 572-662 F.

Offline BrandonSi

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #794 on: December 17, 2014, 05:21:50 PM »
This is probably a silly question that may not make sense, just blame my newbieness in pizza making.

I'd like to try this recipe but will only have about 2-3 days to let the dough cold ferment in the fridge. Original notes seem to indicate this won't work out so well (I'm also trying this with ADY initially [same amount of water / sugar, just using some of it to bloom the yeast first], but will pick up IDY next trip out).

Would letting the dough ball proof at room temperature for 2-3 hours or so, then refrigerating for 2-2.5 days work out? I don't suppose there's any easy ratio for warm proof (hours) to cold ferment (days)..

Slightly related question.. if I doubled the initial recipe, at what point would it be best to split it into halves.. right out of the mixer, or after taking out of the fridge (and before letting it warm up to room temp, putting the other half back into the fridge)?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #795 on: December 18, 2014, 09:26:01 AM »
Brandon,

I think that there are a couple of ways to proceed. First, you can do as you propose but 2-3 hours of room temperature fermentation may not be enough. However, that will depend on your room temperature and, at this time of year, indoor temperatures are generally cooler for most of the country, even here in Texas where I live. The second approach you can use, which appears to be the most common approach among the members who have provided feedback, is to use the PJ two-day clone dough formulation set forth in Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217 (as is or as updated under EDIT 2).

To answer your second question, you should divide the dough as it comes out of the mixer. That is the way the PJ does it but with much larger quantities of dough balls.

If you are using ADY instead of IDY, you really should use the proper amount of ADY. For conversion purposes, you should use ADY in an amount that is about one-third greater (by weight) than the specified amount of IDY. 

Peter

Offline BrandonSi

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #796 on: December 18, 2014, 11:16:46 AM »
Brandon,

I think that there are a couple of ways to proceed. First, you can do as you propose but 2-3 hours of room temperature fermentation may not be enough. However, that will depend on your room temperature and, at this time of year, indoor temperatures are generally cooler for most of the country, even here in Texas where I live. The second approach you can use, which appears to be the most common approach among the members who have provided feedback, is to use the PJ two-day clone dough formulation set forth in Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217 (as is or as updated under EDIT 2).

To answer your second question, you should divide the dough as it comes out of the mixer. That is the way the PJ does it but with much larger quantities of dough balls.

If you are using ADY instead of IDY, you really should use the proper amount of ADY. For conversion purposes, you should use ADY in an amount that is about one-third greater (by weight) than the specified amount of IDY. 

Peter

Thanks so much! I did do the conversion from IDY to ADY (I believe it came out to 0.03oz vs 0.02oz in your original recipe, which confirms the 1 1/3rd conversion rate).

I had not found an answer about when to split the dough, so I very much appreciate that. Have not yet seen the two-day clone dough formulation so I will certainly review and adjust accordingly.

I appreciate your response! :)


 

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