Author Topic: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.  (Read 6570 times)

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Offline XanderKane

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Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« on: May 11, 2008, 01:56:26 PM »
I know thats pretty vague.  I've just recently got into pizza making in the last 6 months so I don't really know what I'm asking here.  I was hoping that some more experienced members might have suggestions or guidance.

Presently I'm liking the revised version the crust recipe that billneild posted about. (sorry it won't let me post a link to the thread since I'm a new member.)  Its basically just water, flour, salt, yeast and a bit of olive oil.  I really do like the crust quite a lot, but its kind of flavorless.  Does anyone have anything to suggest that I could try to give it a little something more?  I wish I knew what i was asking for exactly, but I'm a beginner. 

Thanks!


Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2008, 02:19:27 PM »
I know thats pretty vague.  I've just recently got into pizza making in the last 6 months so I don't really know what I'm asking here.  I was hoping that some more experienced members might have suggestions or guidance.

Presently I'm liking the revised version the crust recipe that billneild posted about. (sorry it won't let me post a link to the thread since I'm a new member.)  Its basically just water, flour, salt, yeast and a bit of olive oil.  I really do like the crust quite a lot, but its kind of flavorless.  Does anyone have anything to suggest that I could try to give it a little something more?  I wish I knew what i was asking for exactly, but I'm a beginner. 

Thanks!

Start looking at the recipes on the forum that use a "poolish" as a first step. That should get you better flavor. Longer fermentation times, using the refrigerator will help. And if you want to really move up several levels than buy a starter from sourdo.com and get with the wild yeast program.

It all depends on how much time and effort you want to invest in this. I prefer the sourdough method, and as you use it you will be able to get consistent results at some point in your journey.

Good luck

PNW

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2008, 02:54:34 PM »
Bryan,

Is the billnield recipe you are referring to the one given in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2913.msg24981.html#msg24981? And what size pizzas are you making, or want to make?

Peter
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 02:57:43 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Central PAizza

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2008, 03:30:59 PM »
First post for me!  In my experience, using a starter or a poolish will give some great flavor.  I keep my dough in the refrigerator for at least a day or two before using.  I keep multiple batches in the refrigerator for up to a week.  Fermentation in the refrigerator is key in building flavor. 

Over the years, I've tried all sorts of additives- shortening, oil, milk, sugar, honey, etc.  In my quest to simplify the pizza making process, I've found that using a self-made starter, filtered water, KABF (I currently use All Trump), and kosher salt yields the best flavor that compliments the toppings without overpowering.  If you're looking for that arcade place pizza "flavor," use KA's 'Pizza Dough Flavor' which has some dehydrated cheeses, garlic, and a bunch of other powdered crap that gives that PH breadstick-like flavor to the crust.  It also gives me heartburn!  Hope this helps.

Offline XanderKane

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2008, 06:28:25 PM »
Thank you everyone for the responses thus far.

I hadn't seen that thread before.  the one I'm referring to started with him stating his dough was too tough to work with.  After some help tweaking it a little bit it ended up being:

16 oz Flour
10.08 oz water   
1 half package of yeast
5/8 tea salt
3 tsp olive oil

From there I let it to rise in the refrigerator overnight for use the next night.  The texture of the crust was great.  Crispy in the right places and chewy in others.  I was just a little let down by how bland it seemed.  I have a 15" stone so I'm trying to make pizza to fit that size.

I just learned about poolish a few days ago and attempted a recipe posted by Jerry I think it was.  It didn't come out that well for me.  It was really really sticky and tore before i managed to get it stretched.  I might not have developed it long enough. 

I really want to get this right so anything that any of you want to teach me, I'm willing to learn.   I've been stumbling around the forum trying recipes here and there. :)

« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 06:31:54 PM by XanderKane »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2008, 07:55:38 PM »
Bryan,

I believe I have found the billnield dough recipe you used. It is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2774.msg24037.html#msg24037 (Reply 5), as modified in accordance with my suggestions in the following Reply 6 and also by your reduction of the salt from 1 5/8 t. to 5/8 t. The final modified dough formulation looks like this, as provided by the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
ADY (0.78125%):
Salt (0.76904%):
Olive Oil (3%):
Total (167.55029%):
453.6 g  |  16 oz | 1 lbs
285.77 g  |  10.08 oz | 0.63 lbs
3.54 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.94 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
3.49 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
13.61 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.02 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
760.01 g | 26.81 oz | 1.68 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: This dough batch appears to be for two pizzas

In Reply 7, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2774.msg24564.html#msg24564, billnield said that he found that using 10 ounces of flour worked well for a 15” pizza--the size you would like to make. On that basis, the above dough formulation can be restated as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
ADY (0.78125%):
Salt (0.76904%):
Olive Oil (3%):
Total (167.55029%):
283.5 g  |  10 oz | 0.63 lbs
178.61 g  |  6.3 oz | 0.39 lbs
2.21 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
2.18 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
8.51 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.89 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
475.01 g | 16.76 oz | 1.05 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: This dough batch is for one pizza; the calculated thickness factor is 0.0948175

Whichever dough formulation you choose to use, you might want to consider increasing the amount of salt used. In Reply 5, billnield originally used 1 5/8 t. of salt. As noted above, and also in the dough recipe you posted, you apparently reduced that to 5/8 t. Doing that reduced the salt from around 2% to 0.77% (by weight of flour). A more typical level for the type of pizza you are trying to make is 1.75%. I think if you increase the salt level to that value, you will increase the crust flavor. In the first dough formulation presented above, 1.75% salt is 0.28 oz., or a bit more than 1 3.8 t. In the second dough formulation presented above, 1.75% salt is 0.175 oz., or about 7/8 t.

There is one thing for you to note, however, about the two dough formulations. If you use the first dough formulation, the dough ball weights for the two dough balls (13.40 oz.) will not be the same as the dough ball weight from the second dough formulation (16.76 oz.). I assume that you used the first dough formulation to make two 13.40 oz. dough balls for two pizzas. If you use 15” as the final pizza size, the pizzas made using the first dough formulation will be thinner than the one made using the second dough formulation.

I believe that it is also possible to convert whichever dough formulation you choose to use to a modified-poolish preferment format. Like JerryMac’s recipe, that should provide additional crust flavor and also improved crumb texture. I believe that this can be done so that you can handle the dough quite easily. If you decide that you would like to try a preferment approach, you will have to tell me which dough formulation you would like to have converted. Of course, you also have the option of just using more salt before going the preferment route. It is up to you.

Peter

Offline XanderKane

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2008, 09:10:39 PM »
Peter, your knowledge on the topic is obviously formidable, and I greatly appreciate your input.  You'll have to keep in mind however that I'm in pizza crust pre-school at this point...at best maybe kindergarten. :)  I've seen a lot of mention on here of using bakers percentages instead of cup style measurements, but at the moment its all Greek to me.  I plan to study the idea more in the future though.  I used an ingredients converter I found online to figure out what the percentages roughly equaled.  Anyway...

You found the correct thread.  I didn't intentionally reduce the amount of salt used in the recipe.  It was likely an error on my part when I transfered it from screen to paper. I do distinctly remember using 5/8 instead of 1 5/8 though, so that's something to keep in mind.  I did split it into two parts for two separate pizzas. If you'd be willing to help me figure out how to make the recipe work with a poolish using the second recipe configuration and increased salt you suggested that'd be wonderful.  I really really appreciate the guidance.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2008, 10:11:03 PM »
Bryan,

At this point, the baker's percents presentations are more for my benefit than yours. The only way I can see what is really happening with a recipe is to look at it from a baker's percent perspective. It was easy to do in this case because billnield had given the weight of flour and enough other information to allow me to convert the recipe to baker's percent format and to analyze it. That format then allows us to manipulate the numbers to create a dough formulation for any number of dough balls, pizza sizes or crust thicknesses. If you would like to learn a bit more about baker's percents, you might take a look at this piece from King Arthur: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/bakerspercentage.pdf.

Since you used billnield's dough recipe I assume that you have a scale of some sort. Is that correct? While I await your reply, I will start thinking how to convert the dough formulation you selected to a preferment format. I will increase the salt level to 1.75% and shoot for a same-day dough. I may also add a bit of sugar to the formulation to help with the crust coloration. If this combination doesn't provide sufficient improvement, we can then look at other possibilities, including a cold fermented (refrigerator) version.

Peter

EDIT (3/15/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the King Arthur article on baker's percents, see http://web.archive.org/web/20090106001715/http://www.kingarthurflour.com//professional/bakerspercentage.pdf
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 05:19:27 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline XanderKane

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2008, 10:21:42 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for the link.  I'll definitely study up on it. 

I'm sorry to say that I don't have a scale yet.  Its next on my list of things to buy.  I've already got myself a stone, screen and a peel.  In a pinch I used a converter I found on the Gourmet Sleuth site.  I know its not the most accurate thing, but you can search for specific ingredients and enter the weights to get a fairly close measurement.  I promise you I will be getting a scale soon.  This is a whole new world and much more involved than I expected.  I must saying I'm enjoying the process of learning it all though.

Oh, and up to this point everything I've done has been cold fermentation over night. I'm all for trying a same day method though.  whichever you recommend.

--Bryan
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 10:28:36 PM by XanderKane »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2008, 10:28:24 PM »
Bryan,

Can you tell me what type and brand of flour you will be using? I might be able to convert the weights to volumes. Please also indicate what size measuring cups you have to measure flour and water.

Peter


Offline XanderKane

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2008, 10:36:56 PM »
Peter,

I'm using Gold Medal bread machine flour which is an unbleached white.  I have a wet measuring cup that goes up to 2 cups and dry from 1/4 up to 1 cup. 

I'm excited to try what you suggest :)

--Bryan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2008, 10:43:09 PM »
Bryan,

Is the flour the Gold Medal "Better for Bread" flour, which is now often called Harvest King flour? Or is it the Gold Medal all-purpose flour? And do you happen to have an instant-read digital or analog thermometer by any chance?

Peter

« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 10:46:22 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline XanderKane

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2008, 10:47:08 PM »
Peter,

Yes, its the Better for Bread variety.  I do have a cooking thermometer.  Just your standard mercury style. 

--Bryan
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 11:04:37 PM by XanderKane »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2008, 08:34:53 AM »
Bryan,

I forgot to ask you. What will you be using to make the dough--a regular bowl with a spoon, a stand mixer or a food processor?

Peter

Offline XanderKane

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2008, 11:16:22 AM »
So far I've been using the dough setting on my bread machine, and then hand kneading after.

--Bryan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2008, 02:09:18 PM »
Bryan,

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I came up with the following preferment-based billnield dough formulation for you to try:

Harvest King Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
ADY (0.85%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (3%):
Sugar (1%):
Total (164.6%):
297.65 g  |  10.5 oz | 0.66 lbs
172.64 g  |  6.09 oz | 0.38 lbs
2.53 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.93 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
8.93 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.98 tsp | 0.66 tbsp
2.98 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
489.93 g | 17.28 oz | 1.08 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

As you will note, I made a few changes to the dough formulation I previously posted for a single 15” pizza. Specifically, I increased the salt level and I added some sugar, mainly to help with crust coloration, and I also lowered the nominal hydration to 58%. The hydration change was purely to simplify the math and some of the preparation steps because you will be using ADY, which requires activation (rehydration) in a small amount of warm water. I decided to treat the water used for ADY activation separately. When it is added to the formula water noted above, the effective hydration will be close to the original 63%. I also used a bowl residue compensation of 2.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation. Even with the above changes, I think you should be close to the originally calculated amount of dough for a 15” pizza. To do the conversions of weights of flour and water to volumes, I used member November’s Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. In both cases, I selected the “textbook” option, which I will describe more fully below.

Preparation of the Preferment

To prepare the preferment, you should measure out all of the formula water (6.09 oz.) into a work bowl. The 6.09 ounces of water translates into ½ c. + 3 T. + 2 t. This water can be around 70 degrees F. When measuring out the water, you should view the marking on your measuring cup at eye level with the measuring cup on a flat surface (you should view the bottom of the meniscus). This is the “textbook” method of measuring out water by volume. Next, you should place one-half of the ADY (1/3 t.) into a small container and add three teaspoons of additional water, which should be at around 105 degrees F. Stir to dissolve and let the mixture set for about 10 minutes. It should then be added to the water in the work bowl. The next step is to add 5.29 ounces of the flour to the work bowl. That amount of flour translates into 1 c. + 4 T. To measure out that flour volumetrically, you should first stir the flour in your flour container to loosen the flour. Then, using a scoop or a tablespoon, repeatedly lift the flour from the container into your measuring cup until it is above the level of the measuring cup. Then, sweep a flat edge, such as the flat edge of a knife, across the top of the measuring cup to level the flour in the cup. This is the textbook method of measuring out flour volumetrically. When using measuring spoons, you want level measurements, not heaping or scant.

After the above steps, mix the flour, water and IDY in the bowl with a sturdy spoon. You can also use an electric hand mixer if you wish. Either way, you want the ingredients to be well combined. Once you have done this, cover the bowl. I usually use a plastic hotel shower cap so that I can see what is happening in the bowl, but you can also put a sheet of plastic wrap and secure it to the bowl with a rubber band. The bowl should then sit at room temperature for about 4 hours, or until the preferment expands and there are bubbles throughout the preferment, which will be especially noticeable at the surface. The preferment should look something like the first photo in this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg56131.html#msg56131 (Reply 4). I was using a more classic poolish, so your preferment, which has a hydration of around 125%, may be even more bubbly than the one shown in the photo. The time for the preferment to become really bubbly will depend on the temperature of the preferment (which is related to the temperature of the formula water) and the room temperature of the room where the preferment will ferment (rise). Usually, you want to use the preferment within a reasonable period of time after it peaks and starts to collapse upon itself. This is called the “break”. I have found that using the preferment an hour or so after the break point does not adversely affect the final results. In fact, the crust flavors may be even more pronounced. But you don’t want to go overboard and let the preferment sit for several hours beyond the break point. Doing that may toughen the gluten structure of the final dough and yield a crust that is light in color because of the sugar depletion.

The Final Mix

To prepare the final dough, you should combine the preferment with the remaining ingredients. As with the preferment, you will have to first activate the remaining ADY (1/3 t.) with three teaspoons of warm water (at around 105 degrees F) and let it sit for about 10 minutes. It can then be combined with the preferment, the remaining flour (5.21 oz.), and the salt, sugar and olive oil. The 5.21 ounces of flour translates volumetrically into 1 c. + 3 T. + a bit less than 2 t., also measured out textbook style as previously described. If you plan to use your bread maker, I suggest that you bypass the preheat cycle if that is possible and use only the knead cycle. You may find that you will need to add a little bit of water or flour to the bread pan to get the desired final condition of the dough (smooth and pliable yet a bit tacky).

I will leave to you to decide whether to use the machine’s rise cycle. My personal preference would be to let the dough (shaped into a round ball) ferment at room temperature in a covered container until it about doubles, punch it down and reshape it into a round ball, and let it proof until it about doubles again. The times for these conditions to occur will be governed by the temperature of the dough and your room temperature. Once the proof period is over, I would gently press down the dough and shape and stretch it out to the desired final size (15” in this case). I would not re-knead or re-work the dough ball since that will only toughen the gluten structure and make it difficult to work with the dough. Once the 15” skin has been formed, it can be dressed and baked on your pizza stone. Since you are familiar with these steps, I will not elaborate further on them.

Good luck, and please let us know how things turn out.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 09:10:00 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline XanderKane

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2008, 03:33:49 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for the incredibly comprehensive reply.  I'm very grateful that you took the time to give me a hand with something like this.  Thank you so much.

I appreciated the thoroughness of your post.  It was nice to get confirmation that I am doing some things right and get a little guidance on the things I'm not.  I was a little remiss in not mentioning that I've been using Fleischmann's Bread Machine yeast as opposed to ADY.  I do appreciate the explanation on what I'd need to do should i use ADY.  I expect that will be helpful in the future.  For now though, am I right in assuming that I can forgo the activation of the yeast and combine the water amounts from the beginning?  I'm really sorry I didn't mention that sooner.  That was my mistake and I hope it doesn't frustrate you.

--Bryan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2008, 04:39:37 PM »
Bryan,

The bread machine yeast you have been using is actually instant dry yeast (IDY). I thought to ask you earlier if you had any IDY on hand because that would have made my work much easier. But, I didn't ask since most people new at pizza making do not have IDY or know where to get it. Since the billnield recipe called for ADY, I just decided to go with that and see what I would end up with.

To switch from ADY to IDY, you simply use 25% less (by weight). I went back to the original dough formulation for the 15" pizza and changed it to use IDY instead of ADY. Going back to that dough formulation also meant going back to 63% hydration, increasing the salt and adding sugar. Doing all of these things produces the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.58594%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (3%):
Sugar (1%):
Total (169.33594%):
289.32 g  |  10.21 oz | 0.64 lbs
182.27 g  |  6.43 oz | 0.4 lbs
1.7 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.56 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
5.06 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.91 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
8.68 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.93 tsp | 0.64 tbsp
2.89 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
489.93 g | 17.28 oz | 1.08 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

I had originally selected the ADY at 0.85% mainly to give us 2/3 t., which could be easily divided in half. As you can see from the above table, the volume of IDY is just a little bit less than what we recited for ADY. So, you should be able to use a bit over 1/4 t. both in the preferment and as part of the final mix. You are correct about the use of the IDY (bread machine yeast). You can add it directly to the flour in the preferment and to the ingredients that form the final mix. There is no need to rehydrate it.

You will note that going back to the original dough formulation for the 15" pizza changes the amounts of flour and water. Now, the amount of water that goes into the preferment becomes 6.43 oz., which converts volumetrically to 1/2 c. + 1/4 c. + a bit less than 1 t. The amount of flour that goes into the preferment now becomes 5.14 oz., which translates volumetrically to 1 c. + 3 T. + a bit less than 1 t. The hydration of the preferment (weight of the water divided by the weight of the water) remains at 125%. The remaining flour that goes into the final mix becomes 5.07 oz., which converts volumetrically to 1 c. + 2 T. + 3 1/4 t.

Now we have two ways to make essentially the same dough, one with ADY and one with IDY.

Peter


Offline XanderKane

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2008, 04:44:49 PM »
Peter, you are my hero.  I'll keep you posted with my results when I give it a try tomorrow.

--Bryan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough needs more flavor...but i don't know what to try.
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2008, 05:09:34 PM »
Peter, you are my hero.  I'll keep you posted with my results when I give it a try tomorrow.

--Bryan

Bryan,

I hope it works. There are so many ways of converting the recipe to preferment format, and different conversions can produce different results. When testing out different versions, having a good digital scale comes in real handy. I think you can see that it takes a lot more time and work to convert weights of water and flour to volume measurements. Weighing those ingredients on a scale takes only seconds.

I think we will both learn from your experience. I usually don't deconstruct and reconstruct a recipe like the one you will be using, so I look forward to your results, for better or worse.

Peter