Author Topic: Need some help  (Read 2780 times)

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Offline paul h

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Need some help
« on: May 14, 2008, 11:07:12 AM »
Ok, I've been using a recipe that I've tweaked and it's ok but not great. Crust is still missing that chewy texture. Here is the recipe:
K.A. bread flour-13.3 oz
Whole wheat flour-2 oz
water-9 1/2 oz
ady-1/2 tsp
salt-1 1/4 tsp
Wheat gluten-2 tsp(I add this because the protein content in the KA flour is only around 4%)
Italian Seasoning-1 T
onion and garlic -1 T each
I combine both of the flours,wheat gluten, Italian seasoning ,onion and garlic powder, and salt in mixing bowl. Put  ADY in warm water until bubbles form.
Put stand mixer on the # 2 setting and add liquid to bowl. When the dough forms up around the hook I cover the bowl and let rest for 10 minutes. I then take the dough out and hand knead(the best part)for 5-8 minutes. I then oil a plastic bag and put it in the frig for 3-4 days. The finished ball weighs about 26 oz which is great for my size pizza. When it comes time to make the pizza I let the dough sit out for maybe an
Crust tastes ok BUT. I'd like a bigger end crust(more spring) and also a chewier texture to it also. When I make the pizza I let the dough sit out for maybe and hour. I preheat the oven to 500-525 and cook over pizza bricks. Any suggestions????


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need some help
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2008, 11:36:00 AM »
paul h,

I have a few questions that might help get a better fix on what you are doing:

1) What brand of whole wheat flour are you using?

2) What brand of vital wheat gluten are you using?

3) What brands of Italian seasoning, onion and garlic powders are you using?

4) Is the water recited in your recipe by weight or by volume?

5) Are you using the roughly 26 ounces of dough to make a single pizza or several pizzas and, in either case, what size(s) of pizzas are you making?

For your information, the KA bread flour has a protein content of 12.7%, not 4%. I believe you may have misconstrued the 4 g. protein per serving information on the flour bag as being the percent of protein.

Peter

Edit: Corrected protein content of KABF from 13.7% to 12.7%
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 12:30:14 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline paul h

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Re: Need some help
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2008, 12:03:53 PM »
Pete, The Vital Wheat Gluten is from Hodgson Mill. I'm using KA unbleached all purpose flour. You are right about the 4 grams vs the percent ::). I use generic seasonings that I've picked up at Sam's. The water measure is by weight. I'm making a "big boy" 18"   ;D

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need some help
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2008, 12:10:16 PM »
paulh,

To be clear, are you actually using KA all-purpose flour rather than the KA bread flour? And which brand of whole wheat flour are you using?

Peter

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Need some help
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2008, 12:12:35 PM »

For your information, the KA bread flour has a protein content of 13.7%, not 4%. I believe you may have misconstrued the 4 g. protein per serving information on the flour bag as being the percent of protein.


FYI

King Arthur Unbleached Bread Flour
• Milled from hard red spring wheat from the northern Great Plains
12.7% protein -- higher than ordinary bread flours
• Contains no bleach, bromate, or chemicals of any kind
• Contains no ascorbic acid (a yeast stimulant), letting the baker choose whether or not to add this ingre d i e n t
• Particularly well-suited for machine-kneaded yeast dough
• Creates strong gluten for a vigorous rise and for boosting breads containing whole grains, seeds, or other
low-gluten ingredients
How it performs: If the bread machine or heavy-duty mixer is a frequent prop in your culinary production, you'll want to call on King Arthur's Special Bread
Flour to take center stage. Our Bread Flour is a strong character which thrives under the rigors of mechanical kneading.


PNW

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need some help
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 12:28:12 PM »
PNW,

Thanks for catching my misstatement of the protein content of the KABF. I've done that before. I have corrected the error in my post.

Peter

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Need some help
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2008, 12:44:20 PM »
PNW,

Thanks for catching my misstatement of the protein content of the KABF. I've done that before. I have corrected the error in my post.

Peter

Peter,

Rare mistake on your part. The reason I caught it was that I have been switching back and forth between KABF & Stone Buhr bread flour (really cheap at Safeway). I have been trying to figure out why my dough is much wetter with Stone Buhr and at first I thought the KABF percentage you mentioned might be my answer, now I am looking at other things.

Thanks for your usual great detailed posts!

PNW

Offline paul h

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Re: Need some help
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2008, 03:33:16 PM »
Sorry for the confusion, It's KA unbleached all purpose flour not bread flour. The whole wheat flour is Gold Medal stone ground.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need some help
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2008, 06:06:31 PM »
paul h,

Thanks for the clarification.

If my math and calculations are correct, I got the following for your dough formulation:

100% Flours, 15.51 oz. (13.3 oz. KAAP, 2 oz. GM whole wheat, and 0.21 oz. Hodgson VWG,)
61.3%, Water, 9.5 oz.
0.43%, ADY, 0.07 oz. (1/2 t.)
1.59%, Salt, 0.25 oz. (1 ¼ t.)
0.71%, Italian Seasonings, 0.11 oz. (1 T.)
2.27%, Garlic Powder, 0.35 oz. (1 T.)
1.96%, Onion Powder, 0.30 oz. (1 T.)
Total dough weight = 26.09 oz.
Thickness factor = 0.1025

In arriving at the above analysis, I assumed that your GM whole wheat flour has a protein content of 13.33%, based on the nutrition information for that flour given at the General Mills website. I weighed the Italian seasonings and the onion and garlic powders (1 T. of each) on my MyWeigh 300-Z scale. My numbers may not be the best numbers because my Italian seasonings and onion and garlic powders are not exactly the freshest. But I was mainly interested for now in getting some ballpark numbers. Separately, I used member November’s Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to determine the protein content of your blend of KAAP, GM whole wheat and Hodgson VWG flours. The number I got was about 12.66%. As you may note, that is about equal to the protein content of the KA bread flour (12.7%). This suggests that you could switch to the KABF and at least achieve a comparable protein level. There may be other differences in the final results only because your blend of flours is not an exact replacement of the KABF.

As I went through the above analysis, I couldn’t help but notice the amounts of Italian seasonings and onion and garlic powders you are using, and especially the onion and garlic powders. I suspect that the Italian seasonings are unlikely to have a material effect on the chemistry of the dough, but both onion and garlic powders are known to act as dough relaxants, much like professionals use PZ-44 to tame a “bucky” high-gluten dough. The relaxing effects of the onion and garlic powders, especially at the high levels you are using (about 4.2% total), is to cause the dough to open up more during fermentation and result in a softer crust. However, that may work against the chewiness characteristic you are after. It may also be preventing getting a more open and airy crust and crumb. As a simple experiment, you might want to sometime try making your dough without using the Italian seasonings and the onion and garlic powders and see what effect that has, if any, on the texture and chewiness of the finished crust. If your problems are solved by doing this, you can always add back the Italian seasonings and onion and garlic powders, but at levels that are unlikely to have an adverse effect on the dough performance.

You asked for ways to get increased chewiness. There are several possible ways to do that, independent of the above suggestion regarding the Italian seasonings and onion and garlic powders. The first, and most obvious, is to simply switch to a higher-protein flour, such as a high-gluten flour with a protein content of around 14-14.2%. That may or may not be an option for you given that high-gluten flour is hard to come by at the retail level and has gotten more expensive recently, especially when shipping charges are included. But high-gluten flour would be a good option if you have easy access to it.

Second, you can add more vital wheat gluten (VWG) to your flour blend. However, I have discovered that there is a limit as to how much VWG you can add to an all-purpose flour and get the desired results you are after. You are more likely to get better results supplementing bread flour with VWG. In that case, you can use November’s tool referenced above to determine how much VWG to use to get to whatever final protein content you would like to achieve. I would think that 14-14.2% would be your targeted protein content.

Third, you can use a combination of either all-purpose flour or bread flour and semolina flour. Most recommendations suggest replacing up to about 25% of the total flour with the semolina. If this approach is of interest, you might start with 10-15% and go from there. I am not a big believer in loading up dough recipes with ingredients, so I would be inclined to use only the all-purpose flour or bread flour with the semolina flour and not use the whole wheat flour or the VWG as part of the blend.

Fourth, you can use a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. For example, the bake temperature could be around 475 degrees F. The longer, slower bake will cause the pizza to dry out more and, as a result, be chewier (and maybe crispier as well).

As you might suspect, it is possible to implement several of the above suggestions simultaneously. Or, you can be more scientific in your approach and change only one parameter at a time.

Good luck. If you achieve the results you are after, I hope you will come back and tell us how you did it.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 08:28:19 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline paul h

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Re: Need some help
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2008, 09:42:05 PM »
Peter, thanks for the suggestions. Since I've got one dough already made I'll try the temp idea first. I'm sure a higher quality flour would really help but I was just trying to use what was available locally. However, I just got my King Arthur catalog and I've been eying the high protein-high gluten flours


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Need some help
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2008, 10:03:36 PM »
paul h,

I often recommend that people try using bread flour before going to high-gluten flour. I personally like the King Arthur bread flour but I have also used the Harvest King ("Better for Bread") flour successfully. When a recipe calls for high-gluten flour, I use the bread flour and supplement it with vital wheat gluten (the same brand you are using). Both the King Arthur bread flour and the Harvest King flour can be found in many supermarkets.

Peter

Offline paul h

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Re: Need some help
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2008, 06:50:01 PM »
Pete, you were right about the onion powder. The dough literally fell apart in my hands. Had to stretch it out on a pizza pan inorder to cook it.The bad thing was it really wasn't that tasty after all :-[. The good thing is I get to start over and try what you suggested.  :P