Author Topic: Questions on my NY style attempt  (Read 4928 times)

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Offline KoolDO

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Questions on my NY style attempt
« on: May 17, 2008, 03:22:23 PM »
Ok, fellas here it is, my latest pizza making venture.  I would appreciate some critiques or insight anyone might have.  I also have some questions listed at the end if anyone would like to share some help with me.  I’m anxious to move up the latter of pizza making artisanship so my first objective is to try and make some good pies with commercial yeast, then move onto some preferments, and then hopefully some day down the road move onto sourdough starters.

Papa Joe’s NY Elite Dough Recipe Part II
Dough Ingredients:
Flour (100%):    743.28g | 26.22 oz | 1.64 lbs (King Arthur High Gluten Organic)
Water (63%):    468.27 g | 16.52 oz | 1.03lbs(starting water temp of 66 degrees F)
IDY (.25%):    1.86 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp (SAF Perfect Rise Instant Red)
Salt (1.75%):    13.01 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.33 tsp | 1.07 tbsp (Atlantic Sea Salt)
Total (165%) 1226.41 g | 43.26 oz | 2.7 lbs | TF = 0.0765
Single Ball:   245.28 g | 8.65 oz | 0.54 lbs
Makes 5 12” pizze
I.   Dough Preparation
Step 1.Autolyse
·   Put 468g of water and 13g of sea salt in the mixer bowl and stir.
·   Combine 1.9g of SAF Red Yeast and 75% of the flour (557g).
·   Mix on the lowest speed for 2 minutes with the paddle attachment.
·   Cover and let rest for 20 minutes.
Step 2.Wet Kneading
·   Mix on lowest speed for 8 minutes using the C-hook attachment
·   After 5 minutes add the remaining 25% of the flour (186g)
·   Increase the mixing speed to level 2 and mix for an additional 5 min (74 degrees)
·   Mix another 2 minutes on Level 4 until 78 degrees is attained.
·   Total mixing time in Kitchen Aid mixer is 20 minutes
·   Let rest for 15 min
Step 3.Dividing into dough balls
·   Remove dough from mixer and hand knead on a lightly floured bench for 2 min.
·   Portion dough balls with metal scrapper into 245g balls.
·   Lightly oil metal containers with EVOO and place dough balls inside and seal the top airtight.
·   Place containers with dough balls in the refrigerator for 24+ hours for fermentation.
·   The pizze were baked 25-26 hours later.  The dough balls were proofed for one hour.


Notes: 
-The finished dough temperature was 78° and was taken with the probe thermometer.  The readings were inconsistent and different parts of the dough yielded different readings.  The IR thermometer gun readings were inconsistent and really way off.  I’m not sure if my method of taking the temperature is done properly.  How do you go about getting the most accurate dough temp reading?

-The result of the pizza was that I am getting “too much crust and not enough pizza” I was told by the samplers.  The crust was big and had nice oven spring, but I think I would like a smaller crust and possibly not so dramatically airy.  I’m not sure if the crust is a result of my poor stretching technique or not?  This also causes the problem of having the crust be too thin in the middle and thicker along the cornicione area. I would like to aim for a more uniform thickness along the entire pie with a slightly larger crust with some good oven spring.  How to a get a pizza with less crust and more uniform pie?

-Another point to note was that it seems as if I am getting a lot of air bubbles on a lot of my pizza.  When I begin to stretch the dough ball and first “palm” the dough ball there is a lot of air and when I begin to push down with my fingers I feel a lot of air bubbles popping.  I am concerned that maybe I am adding to much yeast, this week when my new scale arrives I will double check to ensure that the precise amount of yeast is being used.  Why am I getting so many bubbles?

-Also, another concern was the limpness of the center of the pie.  This was especially disappointing due to the fact that I had used KA organic high gluten flour to get a more “foldable” NY style crust.  In fact, the KA all-purpose at 61% hydration was a lot more stiff and NY like than this dough batch of 63%.  This could be due to the 2% higher hydration level. This batch with the KA organic high-gluten when stretching the dough it stretched out very easily and didn’t require much handling other than popping a lot of the air bubbles.  How do a get a more "firm" pie in the center and make it "foldable" when cut into slices?

 -Another “problem” is reaching the desired dough temperature, and also the total mixing time.  I’m not sure how long I should be mixing for and on what level?  It seems as though I am mixing for a very long time too long of time with my room temp 66 degrees bottled water.  Possibly, should I start with a higher water temp so bring down the total mixing time? A professional baker told me that to find the proper dough temp to use the following formula:  If you wan at dough temp of 75 degrees you multiply 75 x4=300. The four signifies air temp, flour temp, poolish temp (if you have one), and friction temp.  You then add all of the temperatures minus them from the 300 and that will give you the water temp.  The problem is how would you measure the temperature of friction if you were either hand kneading of using a mixer?  And also how would you account for the length of time and the level of speed you have the dough in the mixer for?  The bottom line is using Kitchen Aid artisan mixer how do I go about finding the proper mixing procedure as far as length of time and mix speed?

  Sorry for to bombard you guys with the longest post on pizzamakings history.  I will also be posting some pics next on the thread.


Offline KoolDO

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2008, 03:40:10 PM »
Heres are some close ups.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 03:43:41 PM by KoolDO »

Offline 2stone

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2008, 03:49:02 PM »
KoolDO,

Looks like a near perfect pie to me!

willard
2Stone blog: www.2stoneblog.com

Offline KoolDO

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2008, 03:51:41 PM »
Heres a shot of the bottom of the pie- no leapording which is disappointing.  Also, if you look in the center of the pie the pizza lifts up a little bit and kind of bubbles up rather than staying flat on the stone.  This is a common problem for me, I'm not sure why that's happening.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 04:04:41 PM by KoolDO »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2008, 05:10:22 PM »
Joe,

Here are my comments, in no particular order.

First, what you call an autolyse is technically not a autolyse. The classic autolyse typically does not include the yeast or salt during the autolyse rest period because of the effects of yeast in acidifying the dough and the effects of salt on the gluten and enzymes (like protease). The yeast and salt are added after the rest period. I realize that a lot of people use the term "autolyse" incorrectly but if the rest period is long enough, the yeast will start the fermentation process. There is little fermentation with a classic autolyse because of the late addition of the yeast. I estimate that from the moment you added the yeast to the mixer bowl until the dough balls went into the refrigerator, the total elapsed time was 54 minutes, and perhaps a bit longer to account for the times between steps. At normal room temperatures this time of year, I suspect your dough was fermenting in a material way before it went into the refrigerator. It is possible that all of the preliminary dough make-up and fermentation activity were responsible at least in part for the bubbling in the dough that you experienced. The protocol you used is very good at introducing air into the mix so that the yeast can readily start to multiply (bud); and your kneading steps no doubt develop a robust gluten structure that will efficiently retain the gases of fermentation. I might add that bubbling in the dough per se is not a bad thing. Unless it is the result of overfermentation, arguably it is a good because it will lead to bubbles in the crust and a nice open and airy crumb, especially with the added effects of the use of the rest periods. In your case, a simple way to determine if the detailed steps you used to prepare the dough were responsible for the bubbling is to repeat the exercise but make a straight dough. That is the way that the old NYC masters who made "elite" NY style pizzas did it. They did not know what an "autolyse" rest period--or any other rest period--was. Who knows? Maybe a straight dough will lead to the stiffness in the slices you are after.

Second, you should not knead the dough to the point where the temperature reaches the desired finished dough temperature. The usual way to achieve a particular finished dough temperature is to do so by controlling the water temperature. The equation your baker friend gave you is correct but it usually only works reliably for a dough batch that is made the same time after time, in the same mixer and under the same set of conditions. Otherwise, the friction factor will change with each situation. For example, the friction factor depends on the bowl shape and size, the amount and type of dough that is to be made, the attachment(s) used, the hydration of the dough, and the mixer speeds and times. Change any of these, and the friction factor changes. Most pizza operators make straight dough batch mixes. They do not use rest periods. In fact, rest periods will themselves alter the finished dough temperature because the dough either gives up heat to the room during the rest periods (if the dough temperature is above room temperature) or takes on heat from the room (if the dough temperature is below room temperature). Pizza operators (and many bread bakers) who make standard dough batch sizes use tables to determine what water temperature to use, based on room temperature and flour temperature; the friction factor itself is fixed (a typical value for a Hobart planetary mixer is 25 degrees F). For background reading purposes, you may want to take a look at this Lehmann article on this subject: http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml.

Third, when I use my IR thermometer to measure the finished dough temperature of my dough, I usually just poke my finger deep into the center of the dough ball and aim the beam from my IR thermometer into the depression. I have found that the temperature there is a few degrees different than the surface temperature. But, I wouldn't worry too much about this. As long as you are roughly in the 75-80 degrees F range, you should be fine. If your readings fluctuate too much, I suggest that you use a simple instant-read probe thermometer. The IR thermometer has greater value in my opinion in determining the temperature of my oven or stone.

Fourth, the unevenness of your dough from the center to the edge may be due to insufficient experience in shaping and stretching doughs. What you experienced is quite common among beginning pizza makers at pizzerias. One possible solution--which Tom Lehmann often recommends--is to use a rolling pin (or its equivalent in a pizzeria) to roll out the dough skin part way and then stretch it out the rest of the way. For example, in your case, for a 12" pizza, you might roll out the skin to 9" and stretch it out the rest of the way by hand, to 12". Since you have several dough balls to work with, this would be an easy experiment for you to try until you gain more experience working with high hydration doughs. Remember also that professional pizza operators rarely use hydrations above 60%. The doughs are much easier to work with (they are less extensible) when the hydration is around 56-58%. Try making a dough for an 18" pizza sometime with a hydration of 63% or more and a 2-3-day fermentation period and you will see what I mean.

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 05:15:01 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline KoolDO

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2008, 07:43:20 PM »
Quote
Looks like a near perfect pie to me!
  Thanks Willard, but I think it looks better than it tastes.lol.

Pete-  I'm not really concerned about making a truly "authentic" NY style pizza.  I'd like to stay within that framework and categorize that as my goal so that were all on the same page, but what I am really after is what is necessary to give me the best pie possible, despite what traditionally the original makers of NY style pizza were doing at the time.  If there are techiques that we are now aware of and available to me that are going to improve my pizza I would like to implement them.  However, that being said, do you think that the autolyse is something that I should not implement into my technique, because of the reasons you've stated such as it will vary the finished dough temp etc.?  Or do think I should implement the autolyse more accurately without the salt and yeast?

Quote
Second, you should not knead the dough to the point where the temperature reaches the desired finished dough temperature. The usual way to achieve a particular finished dough temperature is to do so by controlling the water temperature.
Is there a sugested framework of mixing times and speed I should be using to achieve an optimal dough for NY style pizza and then adjust my water temp accordingly or do you suggest I leave my mixing regimen the way it is and just maybe use warmer water?  If you were trying to make the best NY style pizza dough what king of mixing times and speeds would you use?

Quote
Remember also that professional pizza operators rarely use hydrations above 60%. The doughs are much easier to work with (they are less extensible) when the hydration is around 56-58%. Try making a dough for an 18" pizza sometime with a hydration of 63% or more and a 2-3-day fermentation period and you will see what I mean.
  What is the reason that most pizza operators don't work with the higher hydration doughs?  And also by your comment did you mean the longer the fermentation period, the dough will become more difficult to work with?  Do you think by lowering the hydration of my dough that it will allow me to achieve the more "foldable" firmer crust?


Quote
I suggest that you use a simple instant-read probe thermometer.
I used both the IR and the probe thermometers and even with the probe in different spots of the dough, it would yield different temps, is that normal?

Thanks a lot Pete for your help, I appreciate it. 

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2008, 09:39:55 PM »
Joe,

Whenever I have attempted to "design" a dough formulation using "best practices" that I have picked up over time, invariably I don't get the results I was looking for. I have found that sometimes using the simplest and most straightforward practices work the best. It was in that vein that I made the suggestion that you consider making a straight dough and comparing the results with what you have achieved using what you apparently deem to be "best practices". I also did not mean to suggest that using the classic autolyse is better than the method you used, although it is definitely an option to consider. I have learned that I am not smart enough to design the "perfect" dough on paper. So, I just experiment until I get what I like. I recall reading where Randy took several years to perfect his Papa John's clone dough recipe, and I believe JerryMac recently said that it took him eight years to develop his NY style dough recipe.

If memory serves me correct, the dough making procedure you used is basically the one that Jeff Varasano came up with. However, Jeff uses a natural preferment (IDY is optional), a DLX mixer and an oven with a modified clean cycle. How well this combination transfers into your operating environment is an open question. Unless you have the same operating environment, you can only try the principles Jeff came up with and hope they work in your particular environment. In my experience using Jeff's method and also pftaylor's own unique version with his Raquel dough formulation, I found the natural starter/preferment versions of both dough formulations to be superior to the IDY-only versions. In my standard grade unmodified home oven, I am sure that my results were different (less good) from what either Jeff or pftaylor achieved using their methods and oven configurations. Consequently, I chose not to spend a lot of time trying to perfect an IDY-only version.

As far as finished dough temperature is concerned, using an autolyse or similar rest period(s) does complicate the calculation of the required water temperature. The only way I can think of to get the desired finished dough temperature when an autolyse or similar rest period(s) is used is to identify a water temperature that will get me close to the desired finished dough temperature. To do this, I might use the Lehmann finished dough temperature calculation method to get a rough idea as to the water temperature needed (based on the room temperature, flour temperature and the friction factor) and then use something less (or maybe more in the winter) in order to compensate for the rest periods. This time of year, if the rest periods are long in duration, I might also use less yeast to slow down the fermentation. BTW, for my KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook, I use 10-12 degrees F for the friction factor. However, that is for the basic dough batch size that I use, which is quite a bit less than yours. I calculated the friction factor by starting with water at a known temperature and then checking to see how far off my finished dough temperature was. I then adjusted up or down accordingly. Workers who make pizza dough in pizzerias and who do not use tables generally know that the water used to make dough in summer should be cooler than in winter, and vice versa in the winter. With a bit of experience, that simple method also works reasonably well in a home pizza making environment.

You asked about mixer knead speeds and times. Unfortunately, there is no good answer to that question. Mixer speeds and times are related to dough batch size and hydration. For regular doughs, such as the NY style, I usually just strive to get a dough that is smooth (without a lot of surface irregularities), cohesive, pliable, and a bit on the tacky side.

The main reason why professional pizza operators use lower hydration levels than the flours can handle is because the dough balls can be shaped and stretched (and tossed) more easily and be far less extensible than when higher hydration levels are used. Long fermentation times also tend to make dough more extensible, and that is a major reason why most pizza operators do not make doughs that go out more than a day or two. Our members tend to favor high hydration doughs and long fermentations, both of which tend to lead to more highly extensible doughs. They are also harder to shape and stretch. Often, they can't be tossed. In your case, it is possible that you can get a dryer and firmer finished crust in the middle by lowering the hydration level. But with a thin crust, you still have to be careful as not to oversauce the pizza or load it up with too much cheese and too many toppings. Otherwise, the bottom crust may not dry out enough to achieve the degree of crispiness you are after. Another way to get increased crispiness (and chewiness) is to use a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. That will allow for more time for the crust to dry out.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 18, 2008, 09:27:30 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline KoolDO

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2008, 10:25:58 PM »
Thanks Pete,
I guess experience will be the greatest teacher.
 
Quote
If memory serves me correct, the dough making procedure you used is basically the one that Jeff Varasano came up with. However, Jeff uses a natural preferment (IDY is optional), a DLX mixer and an oven with a modified clean cycle. How well this combination transfers into your operating environment is an open question. Unless you have the same operating environment, you can only try the principles Jeff came up with and hope they work in your particular environment.

You are correct mostly, my procedure is all things that I have read and seen pictures of here on the forum.  The main sources for my technique were from Jeff's and pftaylors formulations.  I have also experimented with some of Pamela Sheldon Johns mixing advice she wrote in her book Pizza Napoletana which if I recall off hand was a really long mixing time.  You're absolutely right about hoping that my technique that I have learned works in my particular environment.  That is why I asked and am looking for a starting point for my mixing technique.  But I see what your saying as far as having the experience of trial and error to know what I am looking for.

I think for my next batches I'm going to experiment with the different variables, I'll lower my hydration to 61% and maybe not go as quite as thin for my TF in addition to experimenting with the classic autolyse, and mixing things straight up.    I'll keep you posted on how things go. 
Thanks again,
Joe

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2008, 07:39:11 AM »
I have also experimented with some of Pamela Sheldon Johns mixing advice she wrote in her book Pizza Napoletana which if I recall off hand was a really long mixing time. 


Joe,

I have commented on this matter before, but I believe that Pamela Sheldon Johns gave incorrect mixing instructions in her book. I think she gave mixing instructions from the VPN document that were intended for 00 flours, not for blends of other flours. See, for example, Article 3 in the translated VPN document at http://www.fornobravo.com/vera_pizza_napoletana/VPN_spec.html. But, according to pizzanapoletana (Marco), even the VPN instructions (disciplinaire) are suspect as he noted at Reply 116 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13378.html#msg13378, in which he referred to the VPN disciplinaire mixing times as "crap". Another point to keep in mind is that the Italians use different mixers than most pizza operators in the U.S. use, which is planetary mixers. As noted by Marco at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4154.msg35301.html#msg35301, the Italians use fork mixers, diving arm mixers, and, occasionally, spiral mixers. Those machines operate much differently than planetary mixer (I believe they work more slowly, among other things). So, you can't just use mixing times specified for these mixers with planetary mixers.

Peter

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2008, 03:37:27 PM »
Joe,

Re the matter of opening up dough balls, you may find the series of PMQ Think Tank posts starting at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=34333#34333 to be of interest.

Peter


Offline KoolDO

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2008, 06:55:46 PM »
Hey Pete, thanks I'm gonna check out that thread in more detail tonight, looks very helpful.
  Just by briefly reading some of the posts they had mentioned video instrucionals how to stretch a pizza.  Are you aware of any good pizza prep instructionals out there? 
  Also,  Do you think that by "palming" the dough the way pftaylor shows in his his video that he posted may cause me to have that more dramatic crumb and a thinner center?  I was thinking about this, because a lot of my dough balls don't really ferment quite the same way as his, mine expand outward more, while his seems to ferment more upward maintaing the ball shape more.

Thanks,
Joe

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2008, 09:00:17 PM »
Joe,

Over time, I have seen quite a few videos. Most of them are at places like YouTube although not too long ago I found a PMQ Tom Lehmann video, at http://www.pizzatube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=4bf8ce0ff2ec19b37151, in which he shows how to make a NY style pizza. Tom readily admits that he is toss-spin challenged, but he shows the basics in the video anyway. You might also find this video of interest featuring Tom Lehmann and one of his associates: http://www.pizzatube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=8161a8cdf4ad2299f6d2.

I am more likely to look at the shape-stretch-toss techniques used by some of the chains like Domino's and Papa John's with volume production and organized methods for preparing their pizzas. Their doughs, however, are lower hydration doughs than what most of us on the forum use for our standard pizza doughs. They are also of better quality because professionals have the best mixers and other equipment. To give you an example, take a look at this video that I found when I was doing research on the Papa John's original pizza: http://pop.youtube.com/watch?v=PPm8aHvpjE8. Judging from the elastic nature of the dough, along with having to use a dough docker (which appears to be standard operating procedure in PJ's), the dough is either cold, underfermented or of relatively low hydration in order to be opened up the way shown in the PJ video. I would guess the hydration of the PJ dough to be around 56-58%, even with a high-gluten flour. I subsequently found a website, http://tipthepizzaguy.com/, in which a driver for PJ's said that there was a PJ manual that said how many times their pizza makers were supposed to slap the dough between their hands (I think it was twice although I have seen several more slaps). I have made several PJ clone doughs with relatively low hydration (around 57-58%) and they are indeed easier to handle, shape, stretch and toss. However, a typical PJ dough has a thickness factor that I believe from my research is just under 0.14, which make such doughs easier to work with than doughs like yours with a thickness factor of 0.0765.

I will have to go back to revisit pftaylor's videos to better address your question on his doughs and the use of the palming technique. However, my recollection is that his doughs are of very robust character and can be handled pretty much at will without fear of thin spots or tears forming. This leads me to believe that it is the dough quality rather than the method employed to shape and stretch it out that is more important. 

Peter

« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 11:07:00 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline KoolDO

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2008, 09:55:12 AM »
Hey Pete, thanks for those videos.  WOW that kid at PJ's is really impressive..  The Tom L. are the extremely helpful, they should be compulsory viewing before being able to post here lol.  That was probably the single most helpful video or anything I've come across on my pizza quest other than this site.  Have you ever used those dough dockers, what's your opinion on them?  Also, why does Tom instruct not to de-gas the crust when they put it through the sheeter it all gets pressed down anyway?  I was also wondering why they cross stack the boxes and lightly cover them with oil to prevent crusting, when they could just stack them on top of each other?  I think his associate tried to answer that question but I really wasn't too sure what he meant when he was saying he wanted the cold air to be exposed to the dough balls?  They still get cold even if they are stacked on top of each other and locked airtight to they don't get crusty. 

Thanks,
Joe

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2008, 10:49:35 AM »
Joe,

Yes, I have a dough docker but I usually use it only for making cracker-style or similar crusts. Pizza operators usually use dough dockers because 1) they have experienced excessive or irregular bubbling in their finished crusts (which may or may not be formulation related), 2) they want to save time by using the dough cold (cold dough is highly prone to bubbling if not docked), 3) they want to use dough that has been underfermented (either intentionally or unintentionally), or 4) the dough is overly elastic (and often of low-hydration). I believe it is one or more of these reasons that PJ's uses dough dockers.

I don't recall all of the details of the Lehmann video but he often recommends that dough skins that come out of the sheeter or roller be allowed to proof before dressing and baking so that the skins have some height to them, for example, for standard type pizzas. This may mean using something other than the thinnest setting of the machine for doughs that call for some height.  Skins intended to be used to make cracker-style crusts don't need gas in the crusts. So, forcing the gases out of those skins is not a problem.

The reason for cross stacking trays of dough balls is given in the instructions accompanying Tom Lehmann's NY style dough formulation at http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=52. Oiling the dough balls keeps skins or crusts from forming on the dough balls, and cross stacking the dough balls allows the dough balls to dry out completely and uniformly so that they don't ferment too quickly and helps keep moisture down in the dough trays that might cause the dough balls to get wet. These are not normally problems in a home environment where usually only a few dough balls are involved and they cool down fairly quickly in their storage containers.

Peter


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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2008, 04:57:33 PM »
Also, why does Tom instruct not to de-gas the crust when they put it through the sheeter it all gets pressed down anyway?


Joe,

I went back and took another look at the Lehmann video you mentioned. What they did with the sheeter was to roll a skin out to something less than the final desired size. That is the method discussed in the series of posts starting at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=34333#34333 that I referenced in an earlier post and, more particularly, at Tom's post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=34335#34335. To keep the skin from being degassed, they no doubt used a setting for the sheeter that would not degass the dough, or at least keep it at a minimum. Tom then used the undersized skin to show how to open it up further. You perhaps can use a rolling pin to open up a dough ball part way and then finish with hand pressing and stretching, as Tom shows in the video.

For purposes of videos, or for training purposes, they almost always use a low-hydration dough and a small skin size. I'd love to see them make a 27-ounce dough ball with 63% hydration and see how they open that dough ball up to 18" after say, three days of fermentation.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 05:04:22 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline KoolDO

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2008, 05:24:51 PM »
Hey Pete,
Even though my hydration is higher than Tom's in the video, do you think I would still necessarily look for the same characteristics he described as to when the dough is mixed properly?  The reason being because when I mixed my dough last night, when I took it out of the mixer the dough still stuck to my hand, and tore a little bit when I kneaded it by hand before shaping them into dough balls.  I didn't take his advice to continue mixing, due to the fact that I accounted for having a higher hydration dough.  Also, I noticed that the longer I kept mixing the dough, it seemed as though it was more susceptible to tearing, not the other way around as he described as mixing it longer would make it less likely to tear. 

Joe

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2008, 06:19:06 PM »
Joe,

It's hard to say without seeing the dough but usually a higher hydration dough is smoother than a low hydration dough. It may also be a bit tackier although to a degree that depends on the flour used and how effective the hydration is. Sometimes the dough will stick to my fingers when it comes out of the mixer bowl but when I hand knead it while shaping it into a nice round ball, it absorbs the wetness and becomes smooth--usually without having to use any bench flour. Generally speaking, I look for the same finished dough characteristics for a high hydration dough as a lower one like Tom used. But the higher hydration dough will usually be softer and smoother and a bit stickier. 

The last batch of dough that you described in the opening post weighed around 2.7 pounds. What did last night's dough batch weigh and how long did you knead it?

Peter

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2008, 06:30:23 PM »
Peter,
The dough mass came in at 1218g.  It came short of making 5 247g balls, instead I had to make 5 243g balls, even though i put the bowl residue factor on 3%.  This phenomenon keeps happening to me for some reason.  I hand kneaded for about 2 min and it came out nice and smooth and wasn't tacky after I kneaded it at all, but it was tearing a bit when I was hand kneading.  I was using the quarter turn method to knead the dough.
Joe

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2008, 06:31:54 PM »
I also forgot to mention I lowered my hydration to 61% and I'm using KA organic high gluten dough.

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2008, 06:41:05 PM »
Joe,

And how long was the dough kneaded in the mixer bowl? And how long did you knead the dough by hand?

Peter
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 06:42:45 PM by Pete-zza »


 

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