Author Topic: Questions on my NY style attempt  (Read 5085 times)

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Offline KoolDO

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2008, 07:05:31 PM »
Thursday, May 22, 2008

Papa Joe’s NY Elite Dough Recipe Part III
Dough Ingredients:
Flour (100%):    759.78g | 26.8 oz | 1.67 lbs (King Arthur High Gluten Organic)
Water (61%):    463.46g | 16.35oz | 1.02lbs(starting water temp of 68 degrees F)
IDY (.25%):    1.9 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp (SAF Perfect Rise Instant Red)
Salt (1.75%):    13.3 g | 0.47oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.38 tsp | 0.79 tbsp (Atlantic Sea Salt)
Bowl Residue Compensation= 3%
Total (163%) 1238.44 g | 43.68 oz | 2.73 lbs | TF = 0.0765
Single Ball:   247.69g | 8.74 oz | 0.55 lbs
Makes 5 12” pizze
I.   Dough Preparation
Step 1.Autolyse
·   Put 464g of water and 13g of sea salt in the mixer bowl and stir.
·   Combine 1.9g of SAF Red Yeast and 75% of the flour (570g).
·   Mix on the lowest speed for 2 minutes with the paddle attachment.
·   Cover and let rest for 20 minutes.
Step 2.Wet Kneading
·   Mix on lowest speed for 8 minutes using the C-hook attachment
·   After 5 minutes add the remaining 25% of the flour (190g)
·   Increase the mixing speed to level 2 and mix for an additional 5 min until 78 degrees is attained (76 degrees was attained)
·   Total mixing time in Kitchen Aid mixer is 15 minutes
·   Let rest for 15 min
Step 3.Dividing into dough balls
·   Remove dough from mixer and hand knead on a lightly floured bench for 2 min.
·   Portion dough balls with metal scrapper into 247g balls.(total dough weight 1218g) so they were changed to 243g balls.
·   Lightly oil metal containers with EVOO and place dough balls inside and seal the top airtight.
·   Place containers with dough balls in the refrigerator for 24+ hours for fermentation.(were put into refrigerator at 6:45pm)
·   


Notes: 
The dough mass coming out of the mixer only weighed 1218g.  Only making 5 dough balls weighing approx. 243g instead of 247g.  Something is off, every time I make dough I am coming up light on the dough balls.  This dough batch I though I would account for this phenomenon by raising the bowl residue factor to 3%.
 
I also, cut down my total mixing time 5 minutes.  Next time I will try mixing straight up, because I noticed when I was shaping the balls there were some air pockets in some of the dough balls.  This time I was using a new scale and another precision scale, so the yeast amount was definitely accurate.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 07:07:19 PM by KoolDO »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2008, 08:18:44 PM »
Joe,

Thanks for the additional information.

I perhaps am not the best one to answer your kneading questions because I make much smaller dough batches. However, I think I would knead the individual dough balls after division rather than kneading the larger dough ball before division. It should be much easier and quicker to knead dough balls that weigh 243 grams (8.6 oz.) than a single dough ball that weighs 1218 grams (about 43 oz.). I try not to overknead the final dough balls. I use the final knead just to be sure the dough is in proper form and to get it into a nice round ball before going into its storage container.

For some additional thoughts and ideas on making pizzza dough in a home environment, you might want to take a look at this post by member Evelyne Slomon, who is an industry veteran and author of The Pizza Book, a classic book on pizza: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28773/topicseen.html#msg28773 (Reply 455). I don't follow all of the steps discussed by Evelyne for a standard hydration dough (e.g., I don't rehydrate IDY and I don't often use rest periods) but I follow most of the measures she recommends.

I am somewhat at a loss to understand why you have been experiencing such large dough losses. When I make a straight dough, I use a bowl residue compensation factor of 1.5%. When I use an autolyse or similar rest period, or if I use the whisk attachment, I use a bowl residue factor of about 2.5%. When using a poolish or other liquidy preferment, where I know that it will be hard to get every bit of the poolish/preferment out of the bowl, I use a bowl residue factor above 2.5%. In all cases, I try to make sure that all of the flour and water are fully combined in the mixer bowl and I scrape small scraps of dough off of the attachments and any spatulas or spoons that I might use. I also make sure that just about everything in the mixer bowl gets put on my work surface. I could be more casual about these sorts of things but I would have to use a much higher bowl residue factor to compensate. BTW, I only weigh the flour and water. For the rest of the ingredients, I just use the volume measurements.

Peter

Offline KoolDO

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2008, 09:59:37 AM »
Hey Pete,
Quote
BTW, I only weigh the flour and water. For the rest of the ingredients, I just use the volume measurements.
How do measure out .63 tsp of IDY or .79 tbsp of salt?

Also, if I remember correctly you have a kitchen aid mixer right?  I was thinking do you have a NY style recipe I could try even if its a smaller batch, so I can see how mine is supposed to come out of the mixer, then I can adjust and know what to look for when I go back and make my larger batch?

That post by Evelyne is very informative, I'm going to re-read it tonight, thanks for sending it to me.  Do you think the book is worth picking up?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2008, 10:22:31 AM »
Joe,

For volume measurements of ingredients like yeast, sugar, salt and oil, I use the closest fractional amount. For example, 0.63 t. of IDY is about 5/8 t., and 0.79 t. of salt is a bit more than 3/4 t. 

If you tell me what size NY style pizza you would like to make, and if you have a preferred thickness factor, I am sure that I can come up with a Lehmann NY style dough formulation for you to experiment with. However, keep in mind that that formulation calls for the use of some oil (1%), which your recipe does not.

In my opinion, Evelyne's book is a good one to have in a pizza book library. I found mine used at Amazon for less than $10.

Peter

Offline KoolDO

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2008, 10:39:14 AM »
Peter,
Ok, that would be great, I don't have any problems with oil.  I like my pies about 12" pie with a tf of .075.  But it doesn't really matter, I'm looking to get a bit of your perspective, and try and look for things a more seasoned pizza maker would look for.  Thanks a lot I appreciate it.

Tonight I'm going to be baking the batch I just posted so I'll keep you updated on how that goes, good, bad, or indifferent.

Joe

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2008, 11:45:26 AM »
Joe,

I have presented below a typical Lehmann NY style dough formulation for two 12" dough balls. I doubled the amount of dough for a single 12" pizza because the dough for a single 12" pizza (8.48 oz.) is too small to effectively knead in a stand mixer, even my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook. As you will note, the formulation is similar to the one you have been using but for the inclusion of 1% oil. I used a bowl residue factor of 1.5%, which is the value I use when making a straight Lehmann dough in my KitchenAid stand mixer. The instructions I often recommend to beginning pizza makers are those that appear at the middle of Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563. The same thread, starting with Reply 9, shows some of the steps involved in making a NY style dough (in that case, Canadave's NY style dough).

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1%):
Total (166%):
Single Ball:
294.07 g  |  10.37 oz | 0.65 lbs
185.27 g  |  6.53 oz | 0.41 lbs
0.74 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
5.15 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.92 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
488.16 g | 17.22 oz | 1.08 lbs | TF = 0.076125
244.08 g | 8.61 oz | 0.54 lbs
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; nominal thickness factor is 0.075

Peter

Offline KoolDO

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2008, 11:14:53 AM »
Hey Peter,
I baked the last dough formulation I posted last night.  The videos you sent me were extremely helpful and I was able to eliminate the the ultra thin center by more properly stretching out the dough.  The only the that went "wrong" was that I had planned to bake the dough in 24 hours, and things came up and wound up baking them a little over 48hrs, and I think they were a little bit overfermented.  The bottom of the dough balls were kind of very moist and sloppy like, and it was almost too easy to stretch out.  I would have liked them to retain form a little bit better but over all, they baked really well.  I still would like to get some more foldability anad stiffness in the center of the pie but I'm getting there.  I would post some pics but everytime I try to its a major pain in the a$$, its either the files too big or when I'm able to post them they are too small or blurry.  Anyway, I will be trying the formula you just sent me in the next couple of days, I'll let you know how it works out.
Joe

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2008, 12:20:44 PM »
Joe,

This time of year, with warmer weather upon us, you may want to reduce the amount of yeast a bit, use cold water right out of the refrigerator or slightly warmer, and put the finished dough in a metal storage container with a lid to go into the refrigerator. That should help prolong the period of fermentation.

Normally, with a dough formulation such as the one you have been using, with only flour, water, yeast and salt, you should be able to get a reasonably firm slice in the 12" size pizza. Most NY slices have a small amount of droop, especially when the pizza comes out of the oven and hasn't had much time to cool. It's possible in your case that the Varasano method you have been using is creating a more tender and soft crust and crumb. Maybe the next dough without using that method will tell you whether the method is denying you the crispy and firm slice you are after. You might also consider a longer bake at a lower temperature to dry out the crust a bit more and make the crust firmer. With the thinness of your pizza, you also don't want to overload it with sauce (or use a dryer sauce), cheese or toppings. Another possibility is to pre-bake the crust before dressing it and finishing the bake.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 12:23:52 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline KoolDO

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2008, 12:50:31 PM »
Peter,
Thanks a lot, I'm going to try the formulation you recommended before I try the prebake.  But I have to say this weeks batch did come out a bit more firm in the center, some of the pies were almost where I wanted them to be.  A couple of pies I baked at 550 for about 5 or 6 minutes and although I liked the way the bottom of the pie was cooking at those temps the top of the pie was getting too brown and dried out.  I guess I'm really just being very picky, but to me that's the fun of the hobby.

Also, I have been using these fermentation conatainers, http://www.akitchen.com/store/PZ-DRPE800.html which I'm not sure if I like yet.  I think I prefer the glad container so I can see the underside of the dough.  The glad containers also make it easier for the dough balls to come out, even when I use a generous amount of oil in the metal containers it still gives me a hard time.

Also, if I use colder water to mix the dough with it probably won't bring me to the finished dough temp of 75-80 degrees, is that alright?

Joe

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Questions on my NY style attempt
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2008, 01:15:53 PM »
Also, if I use colder water to mix the dough with it probably won't bring me to the finished dough temp of 75-80 degrees, is that alright?

Joe,

That is correct. Depending on your dough batch size and knead speeds/times, the finished dough temperature might be below 75-80 degrees F. However, using the steps I mentioned in my last post should allow the dough to ferment for several days, not just two or three. If you want to be sure that fermentation gets a kick start, you can always rehydrate the IDY in a small amount of the formula water (warm) before adding it to the rest of the ingredient in the mixer bowl or to the rest of the formula water, which should be on the cool or cold side. If you want to stay within a 2-3 day window for using the dough balls, I would use water at about 70 degrees F as a start, and adjust from there for future dough batches.

To see the results of an experiment in which I used formula water at 47 degrees F and achieved a finished dough temperature of 67 degrees F, see Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370. That dough was stored in a metal lidded container and used after about 10 days. One of the measures I used with that dough to prolong the fermentation time was to add the IDY at the end of the kneading process, not at the beginning, which is the usual method. For another example in which I used water temperature at 44.1 degrees F and got a finished dough temperature of 65.2 degrees F, see Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081. In that case, the dough went out to over 12 days.

Peter

« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 01:44:57 PM by Pete-zza »