Author Topic: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce  (Read 5870 times)

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Offline iamnotanumber

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2008, 03:59:15 AM »
You are not reading all the way to the bottom. Lets take the last book you cite.
Flavor and Chemistry and Technology

It points out firstly that Roalt's law which was emphasized so dramatically earlier in this thread only applies to ideal equilibrium conditions in the headspace of the flavor system. For those who have been paying close attention to this thread this means... It doesn't apply to the complex dynamic situation encountered in eating pizza.

Let us go just a little further in this text. It clearly states that the effect of lipids in an emulsion has only a small effect on aqueous soluble compounds and that the concentration  of aqueous compounds in the air phase is unchanged. All of which disproves this irrelevant point because no one enjoys pizza by just sitting above it and inhaling.

Continuing in this text. I want everyone reading along now. :D
6.6 Summary

I hope everyone read that but let me paraphrase for those who didn't. What red is suggesting is theoretical and might provide some guidance in adjusting flavors if artificial simple flavors are used. And anyway food science doesn't really understand why food with fat tastes better but it just does. Then it goes on to explain that the best method of designing flavor is empirical.

We are right back where we started. Try adding oil as I have suggested to pizza sauce. It intensifies the flavor of the sauce.




"This pizza is a symphony of flavors"


Offline November

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2008, 05:07:15 AM »
It points out firstly that Roalt's law which was emphasized so dramatically earlier in this thread only applies to ideal equilibrium conditions in the headspace of the flavor system. For those who have been paying close attention to this thread this means... It doesn't apply to the complex dynamic situation encountered in eating pizza.

Almost all studies are conducted under consideration of ideal conditions.  That's how laws are applied to physical phenomena.  The ideal gas law is another example of a physical law that applies to only ideal conditions, but the fact it applies to ideal gasses doesn't mean it can't be statistically meaningful for non-ideal gasses.  This is just the way science works.  So it doesn't have to apply to the specific situation of eating pizza.  That's a system too dynamic to evaluate anyway, so for a research study it's more useful to look at components of the system.  There is no less relevance just because you don't like the results of the study.  What you're trying to argue is analogous to saying we can't prove gravity exists unless we can predict where every stelar object will reside in exactly 1027 years, 231 days, 5 hours, and 46 seconds.

Let us go just a little further in this text. It clearly states that the effect of lipids in an emulsion has only a small effect on aqueous soluble compounds and that the concentration  of aqueous compounds in the air phase is unchanged. All of which disproves this irrelevant point because no one enjoys pizza by just sitting above it and inhaling.

This is really getting very annoying.  You obviously have no clue as to what you're reading.  Of course lipids have only a small effect on aqueous soluble compounds.  Do you not know what an aqueous soluble compound is?  It's a compound that dissolves in water, NOT oil.  The only way you could cause a significant effect on the aqueous soluble compounds is to remove the water from the sauce.  Please end this discourse if you don't even know what the terms mean.

Continuing in this text. I want everyone reading along now. :D
6.6 Summary

I hope everyone read that but let me paraphrase for those who didn't. What red is suggesting is theoretical and might provide some guidance in adjusting flavors if artificial simple flavors are used. And anyway food science doesn't really understand why food with fat tastes better but it just does. Then it goes on to explain that the best method of designing flavor is empirical.

You're making a mockery of science and confusing your audience.  What you're trying to paraphrase applies to their theoretic model for chemical interactions.  That is not what we've been discussing.  We've been discussing the aroma release from compounds with or without the addition of lipids.  From the summary: "We will likely have better success understanding/predicting the effects of food rheology on aroma release than chemical interactions.  Mass transfer is a mature science whose principles can be directly applied to our task."  In addition, if you'll take a look at figure 6.3 you'll see two of the primary flavor chemicals in tomatoes: hexanol and ionone.  You'll notice in the bottom graph where oil is added that both chemicals become suppressed.  Ionone in particular becomes dramatically suppressed.

Disinformation and mistranslations aside, why did you cite this reference again?

We are right back where we started.

In a way we are back where we started, because we started with you making an unsubstantiated claim and it remains unsubstantiated.

- red.november

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2008, 07:35:03 AM »
A couple of famous movie quotes apply here I believe:

"What we have here, is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men."


Also: "Sometimes nothing can be a pretty cool hand."

Unless, of course, you are going up against November.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline iamnotanumber

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2008, 04:37:05 AM »
Quote
Almost all studies are conducted under consideration of ideal conditions.  That's how laws are applied to physical phenomena.  The ideal gas law is another example of a physical law that applies to only ideal conditions, but the fact it applies to ideal gasses doesn't mean it can't be statistically meaningful for non-ideal gasses.  This is just the way science works.  So it doesn't have to apply to the specific situation of eating pizza.  That's a system too dynamic to evaluate anyway, so for a research study it's more useful to look at components of the system.  There is no less relevance just because you don't like the results of the study.  What you're trying to argue is analogous to saying we can't prove gravity exists unless we can predict where every stelar object will reside in exactly 1027 years, 231 days, 5 hours, and 46 seconds.
I think we have agreement!! Despite the predictions of the ideal studies we know empirically that adding oil to pizza sauce as I have suggested intensifies the taste. ( Please note that I have intentionally returned to the colloquial term as a reminder that this discussion which started as a friendly expansion on simple pizza sauce has led us down some strange head spaces. How statistically meaningful is it to measure a few flavorants out of hundreds or in the case of pizza thousands? Then how meaningful is it to refuse to try a recipe because it might in some small measure diminish some of those flavorants?

Quote
This is really getting very annoying.  You obviously have no clue as to what you're reading.  Of course lipids have only a small effect on aqueous soluble compounds.  Do you not know what an aqueous soluble compound is?  It's a compound that dissolves in water, NOT oil.  The only way you could cause a significant effect on the aqueous soluble compounds is to remove the water from the sauce.  Please end this discourse if you don't even know what the terms mean.
I think you misunderstood my point. I am sorry that your confusion causes you annoyance.

Quote
Disinformation and mistranslations aside, why did you cite this reference again?
This reference is cited because it seems to be an authoritative text that supports the position that food flavors still need to be designed empirically. I believe my paraphrase is fair and accurate. The text is straightforward and short enough for anyone to read. There is no intention on my part to mislead anyone.

Let me offer a speculation. I know! I know! The huddled masses flee in panic. I am going way out on a limb here but pizza on earth is a cause I will take even the greatest risk to achieve. This is how I think my sauce works. Rank speculation coming...
Many spices (oregano, basil, bay) contain oil soluble flavourants.  In my recipe I blend the spices and the oil together. The oil absorbs some of those flavourants. When I blend the flavoured oil with the tomato sauce I create an emulsion that distributes these flavors into the sauce. Because of the emulsification of the oil the flavors in the oil are more accessible when everything gets masticated. This has the effect of intensifying the taste of the sauce. (intentional imprecision).
It may be as RN states that some tastes and flavors are suppressed by the presence of the oil. But (ah you all knew there was a but coming) pizza sauce is a very robust flavor system. It can take more than a few hits in more than a few categories. Maybe I add a bit more salt, I use the San Marzano tomatoes which are a bit more acid and have a little bitterness. The oil probably smoothes out all of those tastes. But! But! not sews ya'd notice. The intensified flavors from the spices are well worth the purported tradeoffs.
It seems to be RN's position that because of these studies he cites we shouldn't try certain flavor combinations and when we do try things that aren't predicted by current science he believes we should ignore the evidence of our own senses!
Science for him has put to rest the age old adage. "de gustibus non est disputandum".


"This pizza is a symphony of flavors"

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2008, 05:31:24 AM »
Cool Hand Luke still applies.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 06:10:39 AM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Offline November

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2008, 05:48:54 AM »
I think we have agreement!!

Your muddled position hasn't been solidified enough in any respect to be able to agree on anything.  First it's taste buds, enhancing, intensifying, then it's nasal cavities, then it's back to chemical interactions, and who knows what comes next.

I think you misunderstood my point. I am sorry that your confusion causes you annoyance.

I didn't misunderstand anything, and I'm certainly not confused.  I understand you pulled a sentence out of the text that looked like it might serve to discredit the very reference you cited once you realized it didn't support what you initially stated, but unfortunately you didn't really know what it meant.  I thought at least the picture in the book would have helped you comprehend it.  Aqueous soluble compounds are not what we're discussing here because aqueous soluble compounds are not significantly affected by lipids, hence the reason for that statement in the book.  Lipophilic compounds are what we're discussing as they are dissolved by and interact with lipids.  In fact, lipophilic compounds are your only chance at even having an ounce of truth attributed to your statement, so you can comfortably ignore anything you read about hydrophilic (aqueous soluble) compounds.  They don't pertain to your argument.  If you still don't understand the text, you could just count the dots drawn in the picture.  Two hydrophilic dots floating in the air on both sides, but four lipophilic dots floating above the water and only one lipophilic dot floating above the water-oil mixture.  Score: water = 6, water-oil = 3.  Winner: water.

My annoyance comes solidly from the fact you posted a handful of references where it appears you didn't read beforehand or didn't quite understand.  It's one thing to cite references to defend your claim.  It's quite another to throw whatever you can find in a Google search into the discussion without a concern for correlation.  It's a waste of time and is rather insulting.  It sounds like in the end you tried to use the results of scientific work to prove science isn't worth looking at, which is just about the most absurd thing I have ever seen.  You would have been better off keeping science out of it and stated in the beginning you don't believe in the application of science in culinary arts.

I'm sorry you've wasted so much of your time trying to understand your own references, but without actually presenting facts to support your statement, your case boils down to opinion.  So you enjoy the flavor of your sauce more with oil than without oil.  This is anecdotal, but perfectly valid and acceptable.  Instead of using olive oil which is well-recognized for its flavor, why don't you try adding safflower oil instead?  If your statement holds true, you should still experience an "intensification" of the herb flavors as you described.  The funny thing is, I don't see safflower oil in a lot of sauce recipes, and no, I don't wonder why.  Commercial canners and food product manufactures use oil in their products because it helps to stabilize the flavors for a longer shelf life.  The home sauce maker does not require this.

- red.november