Author Topic: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce  (Read 5819 times)

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Offline Adam T

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Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« on: May 21, 2008, 10:00:17 AM »
I've been using the sauce recipe listed on the New York style pizza recipe page. My family really enjoys this recipe too, so thanks to whomever listed it.

28 oz. can whole peeled tomatoes (Redpack brand preferred)
1 clove garlic, minced
1 teaspoon dried oregano flakes

I'd like to try some different variations on this simple recipe but I'm not sure where to start. I like some sweeter sauces I've had at some pizza joints so I thought I might add some sugar. I don't know what quantities to add if I do add different ingredients.

Does anyone have any suggestions on ingredients to try adding for different effects?


Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2008, 10:45:15 AM »
The addition of a small amount of Fennel will impart a sweet flavor. A traditional Italian sauce ingredient. I use anywhere from 1/8 - 1/2 tsp for my sauce. A little goes a long way. I never add sugar.


PNW

Offline Adam T

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2008, 08:29:12 AM »
Thanks for the suggestion I'll give this a try sometime soon.

The addition of a small amount of Fennel will impart a sweet flavor. A traditional Italian sauce ingredient. I use anywhere from 1/8 - 1/2 tsp for my sauce. A little goes a long way. I never add sugar.


PNW

Offline toyman

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2008, 09:49:26 AM »
I just put together a very similar sauce from a previous post.  I used Delallo San Marzano canned tomatoes (28 oz), a large clove of garlic, 2 tsp of sugar, 1 Tbs dried oregano, 1 Tbs dried basil.  I moistened the oregano & basil & put in the microwave on defrost from another post to bring out the flavors.   I'm going to pull back on the oregano, as it was pretty noticeable.  The sauce turned out good for NY style pizza, but I would also like a thicker, sweeter sauce for those who like that better. 

Just an update.  I let the sauce sit in the fridge for a few days, and made pizza last Friday.  It was an entirely different sauce.  All the flavors came together, and it was thicker, sweeter, and delicious.  It's definitely a keeper for me as is. 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 09:23:57 AM by toyman »

Offline iamnotanumber

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2008, 01:41:45 AM »
Coming in kind of late to this topic.
I make my sauce thusly.
Place 1/4 cup olive oil in blender
To the oil add all of the spices
  1 small bay leaf crushed
  1 tbsp dried oregano
  1/2 tbsp dried basil
  1 large cloves of garlic pureed with 1 tbsp salt (dice the garlic pour the salt over it and grind the garlic into a paste with the flat of your knife and the salt crystals)
  1 small shallot diced
 
  1 28oz can of tomato puree
Put 1 cup of tomato puree on top of the oil spice mixture and blend. No need to be overly vigorous with the blender. Just bruise the spices into the oil and disperse the oil. The sauce will turn kind of orange but the color will return to normal in the oven. Stir the blended mixture into the rest of the tomato puree.
This can be used immediately or stored in the refrigerator for a week or more. There is no need for precooking this sauce.
The compounds in most dried spices dissolve in oil. In addition human taste buds receive taste through oils better. Getting the oil into the sauce with the spices rounds the flavors and intensifies them.
"This pizza is a symphony of flavors"

Offline November

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2008, 03:46:37 AM »
In addition human taste buds receive taste through oils better. Getting the oil into the sauce with the spices rounds the flavors and intensifies them.


Based on all the research I've seen, what you've stated is the exception, not the rule.  According to research published in the December 20, 1999 issue of the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry, and in the August 2003 issue of the Journal of Food Science, fat acts as a flavor reservoir causing flavors to release more slowly over time.  A reduction of fat in food generally causes an increase in flavor intensity.  Bellow is the abstract of yet another study supporting the same conclusion:

http://chemse.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/18/2/121

- red.november

Offline iamnotanumber

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2008, 02:38:06 AM »
This study was specific to salt, sweet and acid. These are flavors experienced on the tongue and I am not surprised that there is a suppressive effect on these flavors. The flavors I was referring to are those aromatics contained in spices and experienced through the nasal cavities. I will look for some specific citations. Its been awhile. But you can do your own study in your own kitchen for a few pennies. Try what I have suggested in my recipe. I think you might be surprised at how much flavor can be achieved with this method.
"This pizza is a symphony of flavors"

Offline November

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2008, 11:17:12 AM »
This study was specific to salt, sweet and acid.

For those not paying attention, salty, sweet, and acidic are primary flavor enhancers themselves.  With one ingredient, oil, whose own flavor enhancing ability is debatable and only applicable to certain flavors, you've suppressed three primary flavors along with their undeniable enhancing ability.  (Not to mention I listed three studies.  Not just one.)

Try what I have suggested in my recipe.

Trust me, I've been around all the various molecules of sauce for quite some time.  I know what quality lipids primarily contribute to sauce: mouthfeel, and that's why oil is not in my sauce recipe.

EDIT: By the way, you get oil mixed in with the sauce during baking due to cheese runoff.  That's why I'll put oil in my pasta sauces (except for lasagna).  There is no layer of cheese providing the oil for mouthfeel when it comes to pasta.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 11:23:25 AM by November »

Offline November

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2008, 11:36:34 AM »
The flavors I was referring to are those aromatics contained in spices and experienced through the nasal cavities.

I would like to see that, as the vapor pressure for water is higher than it is for vegetable oil.

Offline iamnotanumber

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2008, 09:12:18 PM »
Here is at least one study that seems to contradict the studies you cite.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3394997
I really don't see what vapor pressure has to do with smell. Water vapor is by definition distilled and it is hard for me to understand how distilled water can communicate any flavour.
Ultimately what matters in my opinion is empirical evidence. Try it you will taste/smell the difference.
"This pizza is a symphony of flavors"


Offline November

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2008, 09:41:20 PM »
Here is at least one study that seems to contradict the studies you cite.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3394997
I really don't see what vapor pressure has to do with smell. Water vapor is by definition distilled and it is hard for me to understand how distilled water can communicate any flavour.
Ultimately what matters in my opinion is empirical evidence. Try it you will taste/smell the difference.


So you really didn't have any studies in mind when you said you would look for some specific citations.  I figured that was the case since to the best of my knowledge, humans don't have "taste buds" in their "nasal cavities."  You should be more discriminant when picking out a reference for your defense.  The article you cited deals with the comparison of two types of emulsions: water-in-oil and oil-in-water.  It has nothing to do with water versus oil, or how oil suppresses or enhances the action of other flavor compounds.

I'm surprised with your knowledge of olfaction flavor modality that you don't see how vapor pressure relates to smell.  You should start by considering Raoult's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoult%27s_law).  The vapor pressure of your sauce is determined by the vapor pressure and mole fraction of its components.  Add a component with a lower vapor pressure, and the vapor pressure of the sauce as a whole decreases.  In other words, add oil, and the vapor pressure of your sauce drops.  A lower vapor pressure means a decrease in volatile compounds reaching your nasal passage.

Ultimately what matters in my opinion is evidence that other people (preferably professionals) have verified.  Not just one person's claim to evidence.

- red.november

Offline iamnotanumber

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2008, 12:50:34 AM »
 :-D  Why would I have to search for citations if I had any in mind originally? I simply said I would do some searching. I am terribly sorry that my poor efforts have disappointed you.
You seem to want to make much of the distinction between taste and smell. I agree that the more correct term that I should have used in my original post was flavor. I was posting a recipe and not writing a scientific paper. Colloquial usage seldom discriminates between the two. I never meant to imply that humans have taste buds in their nasal cavities and I think you know that.
Then there is this study which says. Well I'll let you read it...
http://www.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/011203.Mattes.taste.html

As for my previous citation. Last time I checked pizza sauce is an emulsion. Even your sauce has some fat in it even if in tiny amounts.
"No main effects of emulsion type occurred for taste intensity or slope of the tastant concentration - intensity relationships" This study found no relationship between emulsions of different concentrations and taste intensity. Are you arguing that even the tiniest amount of oil destroys the flavor and then adding even more oil doesn't destroy more flavor?
It seems to me that you would have us believe that
  bacon would taste better without the fat,
  peanut butter would taste better without the oil,
  croissants would taste better without butter,
  cheese would taste better without milk fat,
  lean steak tastes better than marbled,
  salmon would taste better without fat,
  ice cream tastes better than ice milk.
We all know for our experience with "Fat Free" products over the years that they do not have more flavor.

I believe McGee is where I originally read this.
http://books.google.com/books?id=oWqlY5vEafIC&pg=PA399&lpg=PA399&dq=spice+flavor+dissolved+in+oil&source=web&ots=ljF7qf3Z7Y&sig=sAH3sbRIwNxQ9M4s46vOzUcmisw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

And Raolt's Law in no way demonstrates that more volatile compounds reach your sniffer than otherwise.
It seems silly to argue all of this at a theoretical level when the issue can be simply resolved by trying a five minute recipe.

"This pizza is a symphony of flavors"

Offline Essen1

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2008, 01:49:27 AM »
Special announcement - RN vs INAN - Event of the Year. Available on Pay-per-view until August 1st

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RN (Red November) vs INAN (IamNotANumber)!

An event of immense proportions! Who will win?

The studies are out there. Expectations and hopes are running high. It seems both competitors are of almost equal strength. Vegas bookies favor, in their latest assessment, RN by two points, or so it seems according to the latest stats.

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=========================

Seriously, though, isn't pizza making and its tools used, about trial and error?

Yes, I know you can approach it from a scientific angle, but that's not what pizza making, at least for me, is all about.

It's about taste, it's about feel, it's about the moment you bite into a great crust, and right then and there your brain does backflips and goes... HUH?!?!

That "Huh" feeling, or confusion, comes a split second right before you roll back your eyes and pass out.

The flavor was too overwhelming, wasn't it?

Wimp. 


Anyhow, you can dissect all the pizza recipes you want, clone them, try to guess the ingredients, etc...but what it boils down to is one simple thing:

The ability to create your own pizza. The ability to create your own taste. Tailored to your own specific needs, likes, standards, ovens, techniques and tastes. Not to mention the sense of achievement you'd feel when others like what you came up with, whether there was science, some good ol' logic or a whole lot of guessing involved, don't you think?


Mike
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 03:59:12 AM by Essen1 »
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline November

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2008, 09:45:53 AM »
:-D  Why would I have to search for citations if I had any in mind originally? I simply said I would do some searching.


I will look for some specific citations. Its been awhile.


You answered your own question.  Specific citations would be ones you had in mind (that's what makes them specific rather than randomly found), and you would have to search for them because it has been a while since you've seen them.  Otherwise what, it's been a while since you pretended to see them?

You seem to want to make much of the distinction between taste and smell.


You made the distinction first, not me.  I didn't call attention to your error until after you failed to provide what you said you would.  It's not that I'm making much of the distinction.  It's that I'm making much of the lack of documented evidence on your part.  If you make a claim such as the one you did, then report you'll find a specific citation and don't, it's kind of hard to swallow anything else you say.  If you kept it as an opinion and stopped defending it as a fact, we wouldn't be where we are.

Then there is this study which says. Well I'll let you read it...
http://www.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/011203.Mattes.taste.html


Yes, I don't have to read far because it's an article I've read before.  Some people believe fat has flavor.  Okay.  If it does then I'm drinking from the wrong bottle, but I won't argue with those reports because it's not germane to this discussion.  In any case, what does that have to do with fat's ability to enhance other flavors?  Not one statement within that article addresses flavor enhancement.  Sugar and salt have flavor too, but their role in enhancing other flavors is well accepted.

As for my previous citation. Last time I checked pizza sauce is an emulsion. Even your sauce has some fat in it even if in tiny amounts.
"No main effects of emulsion type occurred for taste intensity or slope of the tastant concentration - intensity relationships" This study found no relationship between emulsions of different concentrations and taste intensity. Are you arguing that even the tiniest amount of oil destroys the flavor and then adding even more oil doesn't destroy more flavor?


You are beating this into the ground without a clear understanding of its basis.  They are comparing the difference between water-in-oil and oil-in-water emulsions.  They take a 50% water-in-oil emulsion and a 50% oil-in-water emulsion and try to determine if there is a difference in flavor and viscosity between the two.  They are NOT comparing the flavor of an oil-in-water emulsion to the flavor of a water only solution which would be the analog of our subject at hand.  No, I'm not suggesting that a tiny amount of oil destroys any flavor.  There is already a tiny amount of fat in tomato to begin with.  You aren't really reading what I'm writing if you believe that.  I even stated that there were exceptions to the rule where fat does enhance flavor, but for whatever reason you choose to ignore that now.  This discussion is about whether it's a broadly accepted fact fat intensifies other flavors as you put it.  Furthermore, if you truly believed this article was relevant (which it isn't), it would go to disprove your assertion that fat intensifies other flavors, since it stated there were NO flavor differences between the samples.  Are you sure you want to keep citing this article?

It seems to me that you would have us believe that
  bacon would taste better without the fat,
  peanut butter would taste better without the oil,
  croissants would taste better without butter,
  cheese would taste better without milk fat,
  lean steak tastes better than marbled,
  salmon would taste better without fat,
  ice cream tastes better than ice milk.
We all know for our experience with "Fat Free" products over the years that they do not have more flavor.


Firstly, you're wandering into the territory of, "Does fat have flavor?"  Regardless of that conclusion, you're also talking about the level to which one feels sated with the food they've eaten.  Fat has always been known to satisfy.  It's a primal thing related to survival.  If you look carefully at your list though, you'll notice that only one item is primarily composed of water, and that item is a known exception to the rule.  Ice cream contains vanilla which fat has been shown to enhance the flavor of.  Not to mention fat's ability to provide a notable mouthfeel to the ice cream's creamy texture.  Fat will certainly carry flavor as water does, just not as well as water does, which is the point of contention.  This should be intuitive as water and oil don't mix under normal circumstances, and both the mucus in our nasal passages and saliva in our mouths are water based.

I could come up with a list too, and it would look a lot like yours except that it would compare moist food to dry food.  As one would expect, moist food seems to win most of the time.  So fat isn't any more special than water when it comes to this type of comparison.

I believe McGee is where I originally read this.
http://books.google.com/books?id=oWqlY5vEafIC&pg=PA399&lpg=PA399&dq=spice+flavor+dissolved+in+oil&source=web&ots=ljF7qf3Z7Y&sig=sAH3sbRIwNxQ9M4s46vOzUcmisw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result


So you did have something in mind.  Thanks for wasting my time explaining you did, then you didn't.  Also, thank you for providing yet another reference on my behalf.  What is stated in that book is nearly identical to the article I cited.  From your reference: "Oils and fats dissolve more aroma molecules than water during cooking, but also hang on to them during eating, so that their flavor appears more gradually and persists longer."  This is the antithesis of intensity.  The flavor lasts longer.  It isn't more intense.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.

From my perspective, I take care of the extraction using MAE, so the condition that oil dissolves more molecules doesn't fully apply.  What's relevant is the clear evidence oil traps flavor molecules so that they are released more slowly, thereby lowering their intensity.  That's what Raoult's law would demonstrate.

And Raolt's Law in no way demonstrates that more volatile compounds reach your sniffer than otherwise.


I'm sorry that went past your nose and over your head.

- red.november
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 09:54:04 AM by November »

Offline iamnotanumber

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2008, 11:45:13 AM »
 You mean this whole discussion is over my use of the word "intensifies"?
"This pizza is a symphony of flavors"

Offline iamnotanumber

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2008, 12:05:51 PM »
 :-DThanks Essen thats cute.
Red is obviously a very learned fellow.
As I stated several times previously for me the ultimate arbiter is my own experience with the sauce.
I know that the oil makes my sauce have better flavor for me. (He said trying to choose his words very carefully since he knows he will be quoted by the world at large)
When you add the oil and disperse it in the tomato sauce. The sauce tastes more oreganoey, more basily, more garlicy, more bay leafy. More better in general.
I put it to the vast listening audience. Try it with and without oil and report back here. You don't have to commit to making pizza. Put a spoon in it and tell us which has better flavoure. (In your humble opinions of course)
"This pizza is a symphony of flavors"

Offline November

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2008, 12:26:14 PM »
You mean this whole discussion is over my use of the word "intensifies"?

"Intensifies" is an operative word in your claim.  Are you now claiming you didn't mean to use the word intensify?  Perhaps you meant to use the word "suppresses."  Please enlighten me on what in particular you thought we were discussing.

(He said trying to choose his words very carefully since he knows he will be quoted by the world at large)

If choosing my words carefully is a criticism, I'll take it.  Words lead to sentences, which lead to concepts, right and wrong.  The words you choose determine the outcome.

Offline iamnotanumber

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2008, 01:42:50 PM »
The flavors I use in my pizza sauce are intensified by the way I use oil in my sauce recipe.
No one need rely on experts or extensive google searches to determine this basic fact. Try it you might like it.
No criticism was implied or intended.
Cooking in general has been more magic than science for centuries. It is a testimonial to the complexities involved that only in this modern age are we beginning to understand fundamental principals. Chefs pass around conventional wisdom as fact even when it make no sense. For example many bakers maintain that salt kills yeast. The flaw in reducing cooking to a science however is that sometimes what we know empirically is not what is predicted by studies.
"This pizza is a symphony of flavors"


Offline November

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Re: Looking to expand on simple pizza sauce
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2008, 02:49:17 PM »
Cooking in general has been more magic than science for centuries. It is a testimonial to the complexities involved that only in this modern age are we beginning to understand fundamental principals. Chefs pass around conventional wisdom as fact even when it make no sense. For example many bakers maintain that salt kills yeast. The flaw in reducing cooking to a science however is that sometimes what we know empirically is not what is predicted by studies.


Now what can of worms are you trying to open?  Would you mind qualifying your statement with what salt concentration level you are referring?  Sea water for instance can even kill a human.  I think you should consider choosing your words carefully all the time, and not just for special occasions.

:chef:
More Google

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14434587
http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/news/ng.asp?id=85352-emulsion-flavour-release-aroma
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=185514
http://books.google.com/books?id=TFSdiC4i2bkC&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=flavor+oil+lipid&source=web&ots=gaKfiLl1v5&sig=IsLoFlrQ40L5DcsgLLiaRnV05Zo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA141,M1



One at a time...

1) The study is comparing two types of lipids, not lipids with water.
2) Wow.  You provided yet another reference on my behalf.  Are you reading what you're citing?  From your second reference:
"An increase in lipid/oil fraction was found to decrease the release of both aroma compounds, according to data obtained using static headspace gas chromatography."
3) Studying flavor stabilization, not flavor enhancement.
4) You are obviously not reading what you're citing.  From your fourth reference:
"When oil is added to the food system forming an emulsion, the lipophilic odorant phase prefers to reside in the particulate oil phase and its concentration phase is decreased greatly thereby lowering its concentration in the air phase."  They even drew a pretty picture for you showing that when you add oil, there are fewer aroma compounds in the air.  They also described how Raoult's law predicts this.

Do you have any more articles you would like to present that support my case?  I honestly hope you're about done.

- red.november


 

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