Anyone tried to make breadsticks and cheesesticks from Randy's recipe?

[scprotz]

First, has anyone tried to make breadsticks or cheesesticks out of Randy's dough?...that has always been the test for me.  If you can make breadsticks out of the dough, it gets a thumbs up (I mean PJs/Domino style bread sticks....you know..take a 16 ounce dough...flatten to about a half inch..stretch out about 12 inchs long...dock and then slice with rolling pizza cutter in to 8 semi-uniform strips...toss the 2 little end pieces away...bake at 550 for about 6 minutes)Huh???

Cheesesticks are similar (but the cheese flavor and and its melting/cooking characteristics make a big difference here obviously).  For those who haven't made cheesesticks ala PJs...its easy...

take a 10 oz dough ball...dock the *@#&$ out of it with a plastic docker stretching/docking it to a 10" circle...lay on pizza screen...butter with about 1.5 ounces of garlic butter (this also changes the flavor..if you don't have garlic butter...just take some butter or margarine, melt in microwave, and add garlic salt to taste), smear the garlic butter completely on the pizza (no edges here), and then top with plentiful amounds of diced cheese (no edges). Bake it at 550 like any other pizza.  When the top browns a bit (6+ minutes) it's done.


I'd like to see your responses....


Here are some pizzeria facts I've picked up about PJs and others over the years:

PJs uses a 6 ounce spoodle for a 14 inch pizza. (1/2-3/4 spoodle for a 10, and 1.5 spoodle for a 16)

Their 14 inch dough ball is 16 ounces
Their 16 inch dough ball is 20 ounces
Their 10 inch dough ball is 10 ounces (This one is a bit fuzzy for me..but I think that is about right)

Pizza hut 14 inch hand tossed (when it was hand made..not the new frozen kind) was about 20 ounces for a 14 inch pizza.

Pizza Hut mixes (mixed?..maybe they don't do this anymore?) their toppings in a bowl with the cheese and then topped the pizza (sliced Items went on the pizza first)...Talk about even distribution of toppings...though I wouldn't recommend this unless you leave the center a bit under-topped, otherwise you got a waterpool in the center of your pizza.

Pizza Hut uses about 8 ounces of cheese on a large (2 full 8 fl oz cups of diced)..PJs...a bit less (about the same, but I think their cups are slightly smaller..probably closer to 6 ounces of cheese on a large..unless it is a cheese pizza..then they can't hide the cheese 'underage')
    -oh..as a side note..if you pick up a block of low moisture mozz that you like (maybe fresh?)...throw it in a food processor..voila! diced cheese..not shredded...(this one is a kind of 'doh!' thing I figured out probably the same as millions of others)...I like diced..I think I get a more even spread..maybe its just me..heh

[Pete-zza]

scprotz,

I will leave to others to comment on the breadsticks part of your post since that is not one of my areas of expertise (at least not yet). So, I will limit my comments to the Papa John's part of your post.

I believe you are correct about the amount of sauce used at Papa John's for a 14" pizza. When I first started making PJ clone pizzas, I used about 5 ounces (by weight), based on a post by member dapizza at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,994.msg38390/topicseen.html#msg38390 (Reply 14). However, I subsequently came to the conclusion that that was a bit on the low side--and that maybe 5 ounces was for a smaller pizza. The last PJ pizza clone I made used about 5.5 ounces of sauce. However, when I was last in a Papa John's store, it seemed that the workers were using a bit more, possibly 6 ounces, which would be a good round number when using a Spoodle. As you may know, Spoodles (a trademarked product) were invented at Domino's and are color coded. I believe the original Spoodles were/are made by The Vollrath Company. However, there are now quite a few cheap knockoffs made abroad, with different color coding. The "Spoodle" I saw looked to be black or some other dark color. For my next PJ pizza clone, I plan to use 6 ounces of sauce (by weight).

I have been working with only 14" PJ pepperoni pizza clones, but I think your dough weight for that size is on the low side. According to the nutrition information at Papa John's website, a 14" baked pepperoni pizza weighs 1024 grams (8 slices x 128 g./slice), or a bit over 36 ounces. It is hard to say what the pre-baked weight is, but for the PJ clones I have been making, the losses during baking have come to around 7-9%, based on a roughly 8-minute bake in my home oven, on a 14" screen, at the lowest oven rack position, at around 500 degrees F. For the amounts of sauce, cheese and pepperoni I have been using, I believe that the amount of dough for a 14" pizza is closer to 21 ounces, and maybe a bit more. I have also weighed baked pepperoni pizzas from Papa John's. I have discovered that there is a lot of variations in those weights because of differences attributable to the use of different workers (some have heavier hands than others), how busy they are, etc. For example, the last two Papa John's pepperoni pizzas I bought weighed about 37 ounces and 33 ounces. The 37-ounce pizza was made when things were slow; the 33-ounce pizza was made during a busy period with only one worker in the store for most of the time that I was in the store. My last PJ pepperoni pizza clone (baked) weighed a bit over 35 ounces. I used around 9 ounces of diced low-moisture, part-skim cheese.

I will have to try your suggestion to use a food processor to dice the cheese. I have been doing it by hand, which takes a lot of time to get a fine dice. I have tolerated this in the name of trying to replicate Papa John's pizzas.

Peter

[scprotz]

You may be right on the sizes/weights of dough...it has been a LONG time since I had asked that question and could be off by 1 size
(i.e. 10 inch is 12 oz ball, 14 inch is 20 oz ball, 16 inch is 24 oz ball.)

As a matter of fact, now that I think about it..it seems like they used to do some odd things (like smash 2 small doughs together to make an XL/16", or split an XL to make 2 smalls, or use a small and a large, 12?+20?, to make an "extra dough XL" - which you can order..I got a buddy who does)...those measurements would be more inline if I were 'off by 1 size'.

I'll have to ask again, or gather some empirical evidence (my brain has aged about 10+ years since I asked this of them..and obviously I could have mis-remembered..heh)

[Pete-zza]

scprotz,

It would also be helpful to know whose flour is being used to make the Papa John's dough balls. Their ingredients list says unbleached, enriched, malted, with ascorbic acid and enzyme (which I believe is amylase, or diastatic malt). It would be interesting to know whether they are using bromated flours. Often, the ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is used as an alternative to potassium bromate in order to get a stronger gluten structure that can better retain the gases of fermentation during proofing of the dough.

Peter

[scprotz]

I don't have the flour info (there was a company in Louisville in the 80s that used to make it for them when PJs was very small, and would show you the recipe if you asked - Papa Gino's I think maybe?)

As far as the dough weights..I made a 12 inch pizza today with Randy's recipe and only used a 13oz ball at it was plenty big enough (this falls in line with my original numbers...also asked my bro..he worked there years ago..and he swears a large is a 16 oz ball)

I did some math and..lets assume you have a 14 inch sausage pizza from PJs:

Raw ingredients:
16 oz dough ball
8 oz cheese
6 oz sauce
6 oz sausage

(If this were Pizza Hut, I'd use higher numbers..and the cheese is conjectural, because the employees tend to throw that extra handful on single topping pizzas because they don't look full without it).

This is a total of 36 oz..Now if we take in the 7% or higher loss during cooking (remember PJs uses convection/conveyors...so they are blasting these things through a wall of hot air, unlike our small conventional house ovens...what does this mean?..they have a cook time of 5 minutes flat, while in my conventional oven I have to cook for about 7 minutes..those 2 extra minutes could be drying out the pizza..making it chewier/crispier/drier)..

Anyway...lets assume 36 oz with a 10% loss..that means we have 36 * .9 (the left over) = 32.4 ounces for a 1 topping pizza...I think this is well within the ballpark of a 1 topping PJs pizza.

I don't know what the pizza dough thickness is on that, but would be interested to find out.

[November]

This is a total of 36 oz..Now if we take in the 7% or higher loss during cooking (remember PJs uses convection/conveyors...so they are blasting these things through a wall of hot air, unlike our small conventional house ovens...what does this mean?..they have a cook time of 5 minutes flat, while in my conventional oven I have to cook for about 7 minutes..those 2 extra minutes could be drying out the pizza..making it chewier/crispier/drier)..

Anyway...lets assume 36 oz with a 10% loss..that means we have 36 * .9 (the left over) = 32.4 ounces for a 1 topping pizza...I think this is well within the ballpark of a 1 topping PJs pizza.

Around 6.2% of the loss would come from cheese alone.  I think your 7-10% estimation is low.  I also think 918.5 g is not in the ballpark of 1024 g.

EDIT:

It is hard to say what the pre-baked weight is, but for the PJ clones I have been making, the losses during baking have come to around 7-10%, based on a roughly 8-minute bake in my home oven, on a 14" screen, at the lowest oven rack position, at around 500 degrees F.

Peter, was that based on 10+ oz of cheese, 9 oz of cheese, or 8 oz of cheese?  The more cheese, the longer mass transfer takes, and the less moisture is lost.  Pepperoni is also going to provide a better barrier for the cheese than cheese alone or sausage.

[Pete-zza]

scprotz,

According to the nutrition information at Papa John's website at http://www.papajohns.com/menu/index.htm#, a baked 14" sausage pizza weighs 1072 grams (8 slices x 134 g./slice), or 37.81 oz. When I was last in my local Papa John's store, I saw that my pizza, and others as well, took about 6 1/2 minutes to make it through the oven. I originally used over 10 ounces of cheese on my clones and found that to be too much in relation to the Papa John's pizzas against which they were compared.

I have made several "thin" versions of Randy's American style, and reported on them at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310. The "thickness factor" was 0.10-0.11 and the dough weight was almost 17 ounces for a 14" size and almost 20 ounces for a 16" size. A 16 ounce dough ball for a 14" pizza translates into a thickness factor of 0.103938 [16/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.103938]. That is a value that is more commonly associated with a NY street style pizza.

Peter

[November]

The "thickness factor" was 0.10-0.11 and the dough weight was almost 17 ounces for a 14" size

I have to admit that's a bit disturbing.  I commonly use about 480 g (16.931502 oz) of dough for a 14" American style pizza.  Most of the images you see me post on this forum are of pizzas made with that amount of dough or very close.  They are by no means thin.

[November]

Based on nutritional information provided by Papa John's, USDA, and Stanislaus, Papa John's is using 300 g of flour in their whole wheat crust for a 14" pizza.  It's the most accurate fix I have gotten to date on a Papa John's pizza ingredient, thanks to knowing the amount of sauce, and to the fact whole wheat flour is 12.2% dietary fiber pretty much everywhere, no matter the brand.

I can't imagine Papa John's using an amount far from the 300 g per 14" when it comes to their regular crust.

- red.november

[scprotz]

I don't really know how to do the calculations, but I used Randy's recipe today and made a 12" pizza with 13 oz of dough.  It came out looking almost just like  PJ pizza (not as 'fluffy' in the edge crust, but that has more to do with the fact that I made it, let it rest 1 hr in the fridge, and then took it out and let it 'blow' for an hour and a half - 'blowing' meaning letting it wildy proof at room temperature - the same technique used at Domino's and PJs on 'green'/fresh dough - this is why even their dough is dense sometimes.)

What is the thickness on my 12" (of 13oz?).  I've attached a picture of my pizza below (its a knock-off of 'the works'..though no ham..I was out   )

[Pete-zza]

Peter, was that based on 10+ oz of cheese, 9 oz of cheese, or 8 oz of cheese?  The more cheese, the longer mass transfer takes, and the less moisture is lost.  Pepperoni is also going to provide a better barrier for the cheese than cheese alone or sausage.

November,

I was playing around with different variables, all with respect to 14" pepperoni clone pizzas, but here is a summary of some of the clone pizzas I made:

#1. Dough = 20.40 oz., 10.58 oz. diced mozzarella cheese, sauce = 4 oz., loss during baking = 6.8%
#2. Dough = 20.24 oz., 10.69 oz. diced mozzarella cheese, sauce = 5 oz., loss during baking = 9.38%
#3. Dough = 21.16 oz., 10.72 oz. diced mozzarella cheese, sauce = 5 oz., loss during baking = 7.37%
#4. Dough = 21.30 oz., 9.00 oz. diced mozzarella cheese, sauce = 5.4 oz., loss during baking = 8.49%

I forgot to note it in my journal, but one of the pizzas, I believe it was #3 referenced above, used a 50/50 blend of low-moisture, part-skim (LMPS) and low-moisture, whole milk (LMWM) diced mozzarella cheese. I also attempted a same-day preferment-based version using 20.80 oz. of dough, 10.65 oz. of diced mozzarella cheese, and about 5 oz. of sauce. That one sustained a loss during baking of 6.20%. All of the pizzas used 44 Hormel pepperoni slices, weighing about 90 grams (except #4, at 82 g., in which I used a fat reduction method to reduce oiling on the pizza). All of the pizzas were baked pretty much the same way although I did experiment a bit with bake temperature and time in order to determine whether one set of conditions was better than another.

Peter

 

[November]

Papa John's is using 300 g of flour in their whole wheat crust for a 14" pizza. [...] I can't imagine Papa John's using an amount far from the 300 g per 14" when it comes to their regular crust.

Out of curiosity, I used Randy's percentages and the 300 g flour amount to see what a dough ball would weigh.  The result: 532.5 g (18.783385 oz).

[November]

Peter,

Next ...

#5. Dough = 18.78 oz., 8.00 oz diced mozzarella cheese, sauce = 6.0 fl oz, loss during baking = ?%
#6. Dough = 21.00 oz., 8.00 oz diced mozzarella cheese, sauce = 6.0 fl oz, loss during baking = ?%

 

- red.november

[Pete-zza]

What is the thickness on my 12" (of 13oz?).  

scprotz,

Thickness factors are just guides, but for a 12" pizza using 13 oz. of dough, the thickness factor comes to 0.11495.

Peter

[November]

The 6.2% moisture loss from cheese I stated is based on baking the cheese until it browns.  It is possible that the pizzas, including Peter's, are not baking until that condition is met, but I think you will find a higher moisture loss (percentage-wise) with less dough (if your primary source of heat is on the bottom) or with a decrease in toppings.

[Pete-zza]

November,

My recollection is that you often proof your skins before dressing and baking, which should help produce a thicker crust (and a light one). I do not proof any of my skins unless the instructions I am using call for it. There is sometimes some proofing that goes on in Papa John's stores, as when skins are prepared in advance and placed on screens in preparation for being slammed.

In developing my PJ clone dough formulation, which I hope to report on soon, I came up with different numbers than Randy uses, for just about every ingredient. I also did not use any honey or raw sugar (I used table sugar). My preparation methods were also different than what Randy uses. My objective all along has been to try to come up with a credible recreation of a Papa John's pizza based on the equipment and ingredients at my disposal. I am not trying to make a better version, as Randy has apparently attempted to do.

I don't have a problem trying your Doughs #5 and #6 at some point, although I would prefer to use the baker's percents I have developed for my basic PJ clone dough formulation. At some point I would also like to develop a same-day version based on using a preferment, and also to develop a version that can be used in a couple of days, rather than about 5 days with my current formulation.

In terms of the cheese coloration, I tried to emulate that aspect of Papa John's pizza with my own pizzas also. The Papa John's pizzas did not exhibit a great deal of browning of the cheeses.

Peter

[November]

Peter,

I also meant to ask how long you are letting your pizzas cool before you weigh them.  So, how long are you letting your pizzas cool before weighing them?

- red.november

[scprotz]

Would this also be the case in a down-draft convection oven vs a conventional home oven?

I mean...PJs uses a convection/conveyor system (I've had one - a big ugly/beautiful Lincoln triple stack, and YES the exact same pizza has a completely different texture in one of these than it does in a home oven).  I tend to find home ovens make the same pizza crispier/crunchier/drier, which would explain moister (and hence) weight loss.

Also, I was trying to do some deductive analysis on this question: I know that Papa John's makes 1 order of breadsticks from 1 large pizza dough and you get 8 breadsticks.  Now I went on their nutrition site and it says that 2 breadsticks (at 115g total) is a single serving (BUT they also say an order contains 5 servings, which is empirically inaccurate - unless they give you the 2 little nibs they cut off the ends).  So, if you get 8 breadsticks (post back) for a total of 460g is a hair over 16 oz.  If you were to get 10 breadsticks (which I have yet to see, but could be possible), then you get a hair over 20 oz.

As a side note, in stonetree's response to the weight of a 14" Pizza Hut Pan Pizza, he states (as a GM for Pizza Hut) that it is 22 ounces.  It seems incongruous that a PJs 14" would be only 2 oz lighter (since it is a MUCH thinner crust, even figuring in the moisture retention and airy/proofed disposition of the PAN pizza making it seem larger than it may really be)  

Anyway..we have gotten off subject a bit.  Has anyone tried to make Randy's dough as just breadsticks?  heh....thought I forgot about that one didn't ya'll?

[scprotz]

Other comments on Randy's recipe:

I used table sugar also - and I'm betting PJs doesn't invest in tons of honey to make their dough.  If I had a guess they'd probably ditch the table sugar/raw sugar/honey and go with HFCS (Corn Syrup) because it is cheap, super sweet, and easy to handle.

Also, they note on their web site that they don't  use Olive oil in the crust, they use Soy Oil.

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

I also meant to ask how long you are letting your pizzas cool before you weigh them.  So, how long are you letting your pizzas cool before weighing them?

- red.november

November,

Good question. I thought to weigh the pizzas I bought from Papa John's in my car outside of the store, but gave up on that idea because it would have been awkward to do with my particular scale. For the clone pizzas I made, I weighed them as soon as possible after removing them from the oven. I don't know if that was the best approach to use, but it is the one I used.

Peter