Anyone tried to make breadsticks and cheesesticks from Randy's recipe?

[November]

I don't know if that was the best approach to use, but it is the one I used.

   I can answer that.  No, it wasn't the best approach.  Nutritional information is based on room temperature food products.  Those weights you see at nutritiondata.com and at Papa John's website are all based on room temperature items.  You will continue to loose a lot of moisture as the pizza cools down.  A Kraft Foods patent submission I was reading recently mentioned letting their pizza crust cool down for 10 minutes before analyzing moisture loss.  That was just the crust (par-baked).  For a whole pizza you will probably want to let it cool down even longer.  Then you can start to compare your numbers to those reported by Papa John's.

I'm glad you said you weighed them right away, because I was beginning to think physics took a turn for the worse.

- red.november

[Pete-zza]

November,

I only eat a slice or two at a sitting but I want them to be as hot as possible. Of course, I don't dare tell anyone that I go around weighing pizzas .

Peter

[November]

Peter,

I'm picturing someone from a USDA-FSIS laboratory ordering a pizza from Papa John's and complaining that the pizza is too hot and fresh.  The technician might even exclaim, "Is this really what you deliver to people?  I don't taste enough cardboard!"

- red.november

[November]

I only eat a slice or two at a sitting but I want them to be as hot as possible.

Weigh what you have left after it cools down and do the math.

[Pete-zza]

Next ...

#5. Dough = 18.78 oz., 8.00 oz diced mozzarella cheese, sauce = 6.0 fl oz, loss during baking = ?%
#6. Dough = 21.00 oz., 8.00 oz diced mozzarella cheese, sauce = 6.0 fl oz, loss during baking = ?%

November,

Is there a particular blend and ratio of mozzarella cheese(s) that you would like me to try?

Peter

[scprotz]

Just wanted to post a follow-up:

I used Randy's standard recipe to create PJ/Domino style breadsticks -  I mixed the dough, let it rest for about 5 hours in the fridge, pulled it out about 30 minutes before I wanted to use it.  I made breadsticks (in the standard way - stretch dough out about 12 inches by 5 inches, docked it lightly on the top side, flipped it over, sliced it into 8 strips, cooked on a pizza screen at 550 for about 5 minutes)

I had some PJs pizza crust to taste-test against.  The consensus at my house was that the breadsticks were EXTREMELY similar (even my wife, who dreads the idea of me making more pizza/breadsticks/cheesesticks because I do it so often, gave a favorable response)   The only difference noted by anyone was that they weren't quite as 'fluffy' (this being due to the fact that I didn't let the dough sit in a walk-in cooler for a day or two I'm thinking).

So, I think the results were very Positive.  I'd give myself and Randy's dough an A- as breadsticks.  The dough was still a bit green/dense, but if I let the dough proof a bit more in the fridge, I think this will go to an  A+ for sure.  (sometimes, I'm a bit impatient )

-scprotz

[November]

Is there a particular blend and ratio of mozzarella cheese(s) that you would like me to try?

How about 2/3 Whole Milk Mozzarella and 1/3 Low Moisture Part-Skim Mozzarella.  That would match the characteristics of the cheese according to the Papa John's nutrition information.

[November]

docked it lightly on the top side [...] The only difference noted by anyone was that they weren't quite as 'fluffy' (this being due to the fact that I didn't let the dough sit in a walk-in cooler for a day or two I'm thinking).

You don't think it had anything to do with the fact you docked the dough?  The whole point of docking is to prevent large voids or over-rising for thin dough skins.

[Pete-zza]

How about 2/3 Whole Milk Mozzarella and 1/3 Low Moisture Part-Skim Mozzarella.  That would match the characteristics of the cheese according to the Papa John's nutrition information.

November,

By "whole milk" mozzarella, I assume you mean the fresh whole-milk mozzarella rather than the low-moisture whole-milk mozzarella. Is that right? I knows that Wal-Mart sells what I believe to be a whole-milk mozzarella but it is very hard to dice because it is so wet.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

The only difference noted by anyone was that they weren't quite as 'fluffy'

From my personal observation, and also in videos I have viewed, Papa John's aggressively docks their doughs. They use a small plastic dough docker and run it through a partially-formed skin several times, in every direction. They do it on only one side, which is what the manual must say to do since I have not seen double-sided docking. Yet, at the Papa John's website, the crust is described as being "light & fluffy" (see http://www.papajohns.com/pizza_story/dough.htm). I have used a dough docker (mine has blunt metal pins) with my clones and did not get significant bubbling with the finished crust, although it does appear to happen from time to time from what I have read of former Papa John's pizza makers who talked about using bubble poppers. I have seen doughs used cold, so that may account for that.

Peter

[November]

By "whole milk" mozzarella, I assume you mean the fresh whole-milk mozzarella rather than the low-moisture whole-milk mozzarella. Is that right? I knows that Wal-Mart sells what I believe to be a whole-milk mozzarella but it is very hard to dice because it is so wet.

I would just say, "Yes, you assumed correctly."  However, there isn't a lot of difference in moisture between the whole milk mozzarella I'm talking about and something that would be labeled low-moisture.  There's only a 3.3% moisture difference, but there's 18.2% more saturated fat in low-moisture whole-milk mozzarella.  If fat and cholesterol are what we look at, you could use low-moisture whole-milk mozzarella but at 88% of the amount (i.e. 4.7 oz instead of 5.3 oz) (and give the cheese a spritz of water ).  If total weight is what concerns you and not melt characteristics due to fat quantity, use either in the same proportion.

Or if you want extra cheese, say closer to 9 oz, use part-skim (not low-moisture) mozzarella for a match.

- red.november

[November]

From my personal observation, and also in videos I have viewed, Papa John's aggressively docks their doughs.

Have you seen them specifically dock the breadsticks?  A whole pizza makes sense from a bubbling perspective, but breadsticks are so narrow I don't see why anyone would waste their time, or a company's dime for that time.  The cutting action for making breadsticks should be sufficient.

[Pete-zza]

Have you seen them specifically dock the breadsticks?  A whole pizza makes sense from a bubbling perspective, but breadsticks are so narrow I don't see why anyone would waste their time, or a company's dime for that time.  The cutting action for making breadsticks should be sufficient.

November,

Unfortunately, the times I was in the PJ store I did not see any breadsticks being made. My comments were with respect to the normal docking. However, it will be interesting sometime to see if the workers dock the dough skins to make breadsticks, if only out of habit. I am sure if I ask, a worker will tell me what they do in that case.

From what I recall from videos of Domino's dough making methods, they also use a docking method like PJ's. What I found most interesting in both cases is that the docking is done before slapping and stretching and tossing, not just before dressing, which is where I have used it to reduce the likelihood of bubbling. That made me wonder whether the docking is to help open up the dough more easily by doing something to the gluten structure.

Peter

[November]

What I found most interesting in both cases is that the docking is done before slapping and stretching and tossing, not just before dressing, which is where I have used it to reduce the likelihood of bubbling. That made me wonder whether the docking is to help open up the dough more easily by doing something to the gluten structure.

It would seem to be a more effective means of docking, not to mention more efficient.  An unshaped dough has less surface area to cover.

[scprotz]

I have seen them on many occasions dock breadsticks (I had a bro who worked there, so I hung around a lot).  They tend to do it more often with blown dough, but they also do it with fresh/green dough because it is hard to work with.  With very sweet doughs, there tends to be lots of black bubbles in breadsticks.

[Pete-zza]

#6. Dough = 21.00 oz., 8.00 oz diced mozzarella cheese, sauce = 6.0 fl oz, loss during baking = ?%

November,

Yesterday, I decided to make another PJ clone pizza based on the profile for Dough #6 quoted above.

In order to conduct the weight test more quickly than the last one (the one reported on at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197), I decided to convert the dough formulation for the last PJ clone pizza to a preferment format so that I could make the pizza in the same day, rather than five days as with the last PJ clone.

For some reason (perhaps related to loss of water through evaporation in the preferment), I ended up with a dough weight of 591 g. (20.85 oz.) instead of 21 oz. However, the pizza sauce was 6 oz. by volume (184 g., or 6.5 oz. by weight), and the diced cheese weighed 227 g. (8 oz.). The sauce I used was the one described at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg57044.html#msg57044. The cheese was diced low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, the only kind I had on hand. I also put pepperoni slices (Hormel) on the pizza. I used 44 slices, which weighed 88 g. However, to reduce the fat content of the slices, which had led to excessive oiling on the clone pizzas in the past, I microwaved the slices for about 10-15 seconds and then removed the surface fat by pressing the slices between sheets of paper towels. That lowered the weight of the pepperoni slices to 76 g. (2.68 oz.). 

So, to summarize:

20.85 g. (591 g.) dough
6 oz. (by volume) pizza sauce, or 184 g. (6.5 oz.), by weight
8 oz. diced mozzarella cheese
2.68 oz. pepperoni
Total unbaked pizza weight = 1078 g. (38.02 oz.)

After baking (on a 14” pizza screen on the lowest oven rack position at about 525 degrees F for about 8 minutes), the weight of the pizza was 1002 g., or 35.34 oz. The baked pizza was weighed as soon as it came out of the oven. From the above numbers, the loss of weight of the pizza during baking was 7.05%.

I than allowed the pizza to cool off to room temperature. It took about an hour for the weight of the pizza to stop declining. Its weight at that point was 34.22 oz. (970 g.). That represents a loss of weight of 1.12 oz., or 3.17%, from the point that the pizza was taken out of the oven until it reached room temperature.

What was clear from the taste test is that the sauce was definitely too much. The 5.5 ounces (by weight) I used the last time seemed to be closer to the mark. This may suggest that the 5 ounces of pizza sauce, presumably by volume, is the correct amount to use, as noted at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,994.msg38390.html#msg38390.

As the above numbers suggest, I still came up a bit short of the weight—36.11 oz.—given at the PJ website for a (room-temperature) pepperoni pizza. If I adjust my numbers to add a bit more to the dough, another ounce for the cheese (9 oz. vs. 8 oz.), subtract an ounce for the excess sauce, and add a bit more for the pepperoni slices, there is still a shortage. I have no way of knowing what that really means. As noted previously, the weights of the pizzas I previously purchased from PJ’s varied by several ounces. Of course, my home oven is not the same as an impingement conveyor oven.

The photos below show representative photos of the finished pizza.

Peter

[scprotz]

Just another comment:  A large pizza (14") dough is the exact same as an order of breadsticks (assuming they don't cut off the tips of the breadsticks after docking them).

[Pete-zza]

Just another comment:  A large pizza (14") dough is the exact same as an order of breadsticks (assuming they don't cut off the tips of the breadsticks after docking them).

At the Yahoo! Answers website, someone asked how Pizza Hut makes its breadsticks. A poster, who works for Papa John's, posted the following answer:

I work at Papa John's if its anything like we do it they take a Large pizza dough and stretch it out to its maximum (then it shrinks back) and then take a roller and flatten it out and cut the ends then cut halves until they get 10 then they go through the oven and then put a parmesan mix over the bread sticks.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080122200233AAzmCJ1

Peter