Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 296785 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #250 on: January 20, 2011, 01:17:50 PM »
neveroffline,

You don't mention your VWG count in the total.  I know you listed 2.85 T earlier of HM VWG, but I'm interested if you changed the flour levels at all, or?

I assume that you mean the dough formulation I posted in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197. If so, for that dough formulation I used only King Arthur bread flour (KABF), in the amount of 12.50 oz/354.44g. However, a few paragraphs below that dough formulation, I disclosed two different KABF/VWG blends. If you add the amounts of the KABF and VWG in both cases, the total weights should come to about 12.50 oz/354.44g.

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Also curious on the low yeast content and the no proofing period.  Is it ok to add hot water (115F), sugar, then the yeast in a Bread Maker and leave it on the dough cycle, then transfer to the fridge?

I used instant dry yeast (IDY) in the abovementioned dough formulation. It does not require rehydrating ("proofing"). I just add it to the flour or dough at some point (in the above case I added it to the dough). I see no reason why you can't use a bread maker to make the dough although I have never tried using a bread maker for any of my PJ clone doughs. However, when I have used my bread maker (a Zojirushi model) to make other kinds of doughs, I have used cold water and I kneaded the dough for only a short period of time. My bread maker generates a lot of heat by friction so the combination of cold water and short knead time was used to keep the finished dough temperature in the 80 degrees F range so that it didn't ferment too quickly, even when in the refrigerator. Whatever bread maker you use the objective is to get a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F (I shoot for 75-80 degrees F for a dough that is to be fermented in a standard home refrigerator).

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Also, can I substitute Brown Sugar for the White?  Should I add more yeast if I want to be able to use the dough within 24hrs?

Yes, you can substitute brown sugar for white table sugar although I have not tried that myself. And, yes, you should increase the amount of yeast if you want to use the dough within 24 hours.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #251 on: January 20, 2011, 01:44:25 PM »
pete, have you ever attempted the papa johns thincrust?   secondly, have you ever tried it?

c0mpl3x,

No, I have never attempted a PJ thin crust pizza nor have I tried one. I don't know who now makes the par-baked crusts for PJ but some time ago I found a listing of the ingredients for the par-baked crust at a website that has since disappeared. However, I had printed out the ingredients list before the information disappeared. The ingredients listed as of that time were:

Unbleached flour (wheat flour, malted barley flour), water, soybean oil, yeast, salt, natural and artificial flavors (milk), dextrose, calcium propionate (preservative), soy lecithin.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #252 on: January 20, 2011, 01:50:24 PM »
i will be making a PJ emergency same-day dough here very shortly.  i have to leave for work at 2:15, but all i make as of late is same-day, 2-6 hour doughs.  gotten quite good at it

c0mpl3x,

Your pizzas look quite good. I think a PJ emergency dough makes a pretty good pizza. It won't be as good as a PJ clone pizza made from a long, cold fermented dough in my opinion, but you don't have to wait several days to eat the pizza. Did you use one of the PJ clone dough formulations in this thread or did you come up with your own? And do you do anything different in making your versions at home as opposed to what you do at work at PJ's?

Peter

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #253 on: January 20, 2011, 02:05:15 PM »
c0mpl3x,

Your pizzas look quite good. I think a PJ emergency dough makes a pretty good pizza. It won't be as good as a PJ clone pizza made from a long, cold fermented dough in my opinion, but you don't have to wait several days to eat the pizza. Did you use one of the PJ clone dough formulations in this thread or did you come up with your own? And do you do anything different in making your versions at home as opposed to what you do at work at PJ's?

Peter
same %tages you cite in the start of this thread.  i don't have a docker, but with same day dough you rarely have the need for one.  cold fermented dough gets lots of bubbles for some reason.    i stretch it in the dustinator from PJ themselves actually.   i don't have a surface adequate enough to let the dough 'float' when i stretch it out, so i pile up a bunch of dustinator in a fullsheet pan to let me contain the mess and crust lock, then flip and stretch it NY style.  i rarely slap dough at home due to the insane amount of flour that gets everywhere.  baked at 550 in my home oven, which is about 500 on a thermometer.  don't know why the oven is off
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Offline ekang

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #254 on: January 31, 2011, 03:30:15 AM »
ekang,

Before I respond, can you tell me whether you are operating in a commercial environment or a home environment?

Peter

Hi Peter,

It would be for a commercial outdoor environment.  We will be using gas conveyor ovens as that is the only option for us at this point.  We are looking at an American style pizza recipe because of the limitations of the oven (500F), am I correct in saying this?  We would like to make a NY style but from what I've read it is tough to do with conveyors.

Operating outside we are limited to space and refrigeration that is why we are looking for room temp fermentation and keeping the dough in bulk batches and portion out on the go as needed.  The desired crust for us is something that is fairly thin, crispy on the outside and chewy on the inside without being too "bready".  I understand American style is more on the soft and chewy side but it seems as though I can add less oil (2.8%) to get a crispier crust, is this true?  Our initial calculation is to use 200g of dough for a 9" pizza.

We are looking for mass production but we don't want to sacrifice quality.  We want to produce a crust with great flavour and it seems as though a natural preferment is the way to go.  I've read about ones using raisins and seems as though it would add a unique flavour to the crust.  However, all the posts I've read use high temp ovens 700F +, can a preferment be used for conveyor ovens and produce a nice browned crispy crust?

Also, is there a limit to how many times one can punch down a dough.  From what I've read once the dough reaches double in volume it should be used or punch down to prevent over-fermentation.  If it is being used throughout the day and kept outside it could potentially double multiple times, can the dough be constantly punched down and still produce the same quality pizza?

I know this is a lot to ask and I appreciate any input you can give.

Kind regards,
ekang

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #255 on: January 31, 2011, 07:08:38 PM »
ekang,

It sounds like you are outside of the U.S. and are thinking of an "American" style pizza in a generic sense. In the U.S., an "American" style pizza is a specific style of pizza that is made with a dough that contains a lot of oil and sugar and has a relatively thick crust that can sometimes be on the bready side. The best manifestation of this style is what the chains Papa John's, Domino's and Little Caesars produce. This thread is dedicated solely to the Papa John's style of American pizza.

What I suggest you do is to start a new thread at the General Pizza Making board and set forth what equipment and other facilities you have, as well as the types of flours and other ingredients you have at your disposal, and, in general, what style or type of pizza you want to make, including the characteristics of the crust you are after. That way, you should get a broader range of suggestions from a broader range of members. I think the first objective is to find a basic dough recipe that will work with your oven to produce the style of pizza you want to make. If you'd like, if you decide to start a new topic, you can combine your earlier post at Reply 244 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg123254.html#msg123254 with your last post.

Peter

Offline bpizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #256 on: February 04, 2011, 07:56:46 PM »
Pete-zza, I was looking over your recipe in post #20, but the mixing instructions are for a KitchenAid mixer. Are the instructions applicable to a dlx mixer or would I have to modify them?

thanks

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #257 on: February 06, 2011, 11:49:33 AM »
Pete-zza, I was looking over your recipe in post #20, but the mixing instructions are for a KitchenAid mixer. Are the instructions applicable to a dlx mixer or would I have to modify them?

bpizza,

I don't have a DLX mixer and don't recall any other member discussing use of same to make a Papa John's clone dough. However, the PJ clone doughs contain a lot of oil, which I think makes the doughs easier to prepare than other doughs. I see no reason why they shouldn't work in just about any type of mixer, and even by hand kneading. However, each type of mixer has its own peculiarities that make it different from other mixers, so it may take some experimenting with your mixer to get the desired finished dough condition.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza - Dough Ball SOS
« Reply #258 on: February 19, 2011, 10:08:59 AM »
Hey y'all,

I currently have a PJ Clone dough ball in the fridge, on day 4, based on the original formulation at the start of this thread.

I'm getting a little worried that there has been almost no expansion of the dough.  In preparing the dough, I don't think the dough temperature was quite up to the range suggested by Pete-zaa, but it was pretty close

Could it be that the temp didn't get high enough to activate the yeast? 

I guess by bottom-line question is, if I still don't have any rise by the day I am planning to use the dough (about 32 hours from now), what should I do?

Should I pull it out of the fridge several hours before I plan to use it so that it can get a little rise (potentially) at room temp?

Any advice appreciated!
Biz


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #259 on: February 19, 2011, 11:48:41 AM »
Biz,

It is perhaps too early to know when your dough will show more signs of life. Unless you used some method, such as the poppy seed trick, it is possible that the dough has risen but you couldn't detect it visually. As I understand it, Papa John's doughs can last for up to eight days of cold fermentation, maybe even nine days. In your case, I suggest that you let the dough ferment for another 24 hours. If you don't see clearer signs of expansion, you might bring the dough out to room temperature around 8-10 hours before you plan to use it. This is something that I did with one of my PJ clone doughs when it behaved similarly to yours, as I discussed at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #260 on: February 19, 2011, 11:58:12 AM »
Thanks so much, Pete!

I really appreciate all of the expertise you are sharing on this site. . . it's truly an amazing amount of knowledge!

I didn't do the poppy seed trick, so you are right that I may have missed some expansion.  It definitely has grown some, just nothing like the basic NY dough recipe that I have used the previous couple times. 
Thanks for your advice!

Another issue I am having with my dough in general is that I can't seem to get it to form a really nice, homogenous sphere when I'm done kneading it.  The ball always has some "knots" or just other irregularities in texture that have in some cases caused issues when I go to actually prepare the skin.

Any suggestions there?  I don't have a stand mixer, so most of the time I'm using the Knead cycle on my Zojirushi Home Bakery Supreme bread machine.

Thanks again - you guys rock!!
Biz

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #261 on: February 19, 2011, 06:42:35 PM »
Biz,

In general, I have not had any problems in getting smooth and cohesive PJ clone dough balls. The particular PJ clone recipe you used, which is set forth at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, produces a dough with an "effective" hydration of 63.8%, which I calculated by adding the formula hydration (56.5%) and the formula oil (7.3%) together. That value is close to the rated absorption value of a high-protein flour. As a result, using a basic KitchenAid stand mixer or using hand kneading produces a somewhat underkneaded dough that is easy to form and shape into nice, round cohesive balls. I, too, have a Zojirushi bread maker but have not used it to make a PJ clone dough. However, I know from having used that machine to make other types of doughs that it is important not to overknead the doughs. That can result in drier doughs that are somewhat harder to form into nice tight balls without knots and other irregularities. I have also learned from working with different types of doughs that the doughs with the highest hydration values tend to be the easiest to shape and form into tight, smooth dough balls.

There are many videos and articles on how to shape and form dough balls. A couple you might want to look at are the Bruno's video at and the Lehmann/Zeak video at I calculate that the "effective" hydration of the Bruno's dough, which is said to be a NY style dough, is around 54.2%. That is on the low side, and if you look at the dough ball shaping steps starting at around 5:45, you will see how it is a challenge to form the dough balls so that they are tight without seams, knots and the like. By contrast, if you look at the comparable steps in the Lehmann/Zeak video, starting at around 3:02, you will see that the dough balls are formed more easily. I suspect the reason is that the Lehmann/Zeak dough balls have a higher effective hydration. Another video, by Tony Gemignani, that shows similar dough forming methods, can be seen at

You can also see one method of how Neapolitan-style dough balls can be formed at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm. If you click on the photos, you can see them in enlarged form. The dough balls shown in the article have a hydration of 55.6%. That is fairly close to the rated absorption value of 00 flour and should allow one to make good, tight dough balls.

Ultimately, it is likely to be practice that allows you to make nice, cohesive, tight dough balls. In your case, with your Zo machine, you might want to keep the kneading down to a minimum (you want the dough to be slightly underkneaded) so that you don't overly develop the gluten and end up with a dough that is dry and harder to form into dough balls.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #262 on: February 21, 2011, 10:32:24 AM »
Thanks again for the advice!  I will definitely have to check out those dough ball making resources!

As for my mutant PJ Clone dough ball I mentioned - it actually turned out surprisingly well!  I set it out at room temp about 10 hours ahead. It still didn't seem to expand much, so I actually put it in a slightly warm oven for a hour at the end, which did produce some expansion.

But regardless - the dough was easy to work with (though perhaps a little too soft) and most importantly - tasted fabulous! 
It didn't rise much during baking, which was ok but a little curious.   I can't wait to try it again. 

Any final thoughts on what went wrong  (in terms of the lack of expansion)?  I'm thinking I may want to get the dough a little warmer to activate the yeast, or even leave it at room temp for like an hour before putting it in the fridge for good.

Thoughts?  Thanks again!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #263 on: February 21, 2011, 02:34:50 PM »
Biz,

It would help if you posted some photos of the dough/skin/pizza. They might help provide a more complete answer to your questions.

The dough formulation you used can be tricky because of the timing issue, that is, making a dough that can last of up to eight or nine days. To do that successfully in a commercial environment means having to use small amounts of yeast, cool water and other techniques. You also have to achieve the proper finished dough temperature. To speed things up, you would have to take measures such as using more yeast, warmer water, a period of room temperature fermentation before refrigerating, using a longer temper time before using, or some combination of these measures. In your case, since you used your Zo to knead the dough, if that knead time was too long or too intensive, it is possible that you ended up with a stiffer and denser dough. That can also extend the window of usability of the dough. Can you describe the knead protocol you used with your Zo, in terms of knead duration, whether heat was applied during kneading, whether you used cold water, the finished dough temperature, etc.?

As for the softness of the crumb, that is a characteristic of the Papa John's finished crust. It is the combination of high oil and sugar quantities, along with using a pizza screen, that produces that texture. It goes with the territory.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #264 on: February 21, 2011, 02:52:15 PM »
Yeah, I told my wife "I need to take pictures to show Pete!" but I didn't actually get around to doing it :(

I don't really need the long window of usability.  ..I just assumed that was important to achieving the proper flavor and texture of the finished product.  If not, hey, I'll use one of your shorter window formulations!  i'm just looking for the best flavor, really.

The way I mixed the dough was basically thus:
I used room temp water (probably about 60-65deg) and mixed initially by hand in the bowl.  Then I added the yeast and put into the Zo (BB-CEC20 model) on the "home made" course (manual) on the "Knead" cycle for about 6 minutes if memory serves correctly.  Then I oiled the ball and put it into a metal mixing bowl, covered with plastic wrap and put a tiny hole in the wrap.  Then into the fridge it went!
I'm not aware of any other way to use the Zo for kneading/mixing except perhaps the "mixing" part of the Cake cycle.
And if anything, it seemed like it wasn't kneaded enough, based on the aforementioned lack of homogenicity (noun form of homogenous?  ???) etc.  But then again, I'm a total beginner so I don't know much!

To start a separate conversation, I am using a pizza stone at 500 degrees with a 1-hour preheat.  I don't have a screen but thinking I may want to get one. ....  
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 02:55:56 PM by Biz Markie »

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #265 on: February 21, 2011, 09:27:36 PM »
if you need a screen i can send you one.
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Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #266 on: February 21, 2011, 11:07:11 PM »
Gee, thanks!  Appreciate the generosity, but I wouldn't want you to go to the trouble. .

However, if there's anything I need to look out for when purchasing one, or if you have any recommendations, let me know!

I saw some at Target the other day that looked decent. .. boy, I'm a total Noob!   LOL


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #267 on: February 22, 2011, 09:56:48 AM »
Thanks to member c0mpl3x, who works for Papa John's, here are a couple of good videos on forming skins that might be useful to those who attempt Papa John's clones as discussed in this thread:

and

The second video shows the method of forming skins that I have seen in the PJ store near me, in good part because of the use of the dough docker. But the methods shown by the gal in the first video also have merit in the context of a PJ dough, even though she does not use a dough docker. In fact, for my PJ clone doughs, most often I found that the dough was soft enough and extensible enough and warm enough as not to require using a dough docker. Often I used the dough docker anyway because I wanted to see how it affected the formation of the skins.

c0mpl3x describes how he forms his skins at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13063.msg127954.html#msg127954.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #268 on: February 22, 2011, 11:19:03 AM »
Thanks!

Any final suggestions on best way to mix the PJ Clone dough with the Zo?  Or perhaps doing it all by hand may be better?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #269 on: February 22, 2011, 12:47:15 PM »
Biz,

As between the two methods, I would rather that you try to succeed using your Zo machine. If you do succeed, then we will know that it is a viable option. Of course, the parameters of the Zo process would have to be specified in sufficient detail so that others following in your footsteps would also have a chance at succeeding.

I have the BBCC-V20 model of Zo. Apparently, it has a programmable feature that allows me to turn off the preheat cycle and to set whatever mix/knead time I would like. However, when I conducted my experiments with the Zo, I started with the regular method, with a preheat cycle, and adjusted the water temperature and the knead time (which I monitored visually) so that the finished dough temperature would be in the desired range. For a dough to be fermented in the refrigerator, the ideal finished dough temperature would be 75-80 degrees F. If you'd like, you can see how I made a couple of my Zo doughs (for a NY style pizza) at Reply 51 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5486.html#msg5486 and at Reply 260 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17113.html#msg17113. I believe the methods I used with my Zo would work with a PJ clone dough although were I to consider using my Zo today for a PJ clone dough I would perhaps try using the programmable feature to disable the preheat cycle and I would perhaps keep the total knead time down to about 6-7 minutes once the kneading commences after the ingredients have been mixed together.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #270 on: February 22, 2011, 01:18:37 PM »
Sounds like a plan!

I am determined to keep a detailed log, with photos, of my next attempt.  I should like to do it tonight.. .we'll see!

I can indeed turn off the preheat, which I did on my last (and only to-date) PJ attempt.  So basically it was just "kneading" for 6 minutes, after I had formed a scrappy dough in a bowl with a spatula.

I am certain my dough temp was not in the desired range on my first attempt.

Again, I'll keep you posted!

Offline bpizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #271 on: March 03, 2011, 09:30:14 PM »
What's the best recipe for a 13 inch and 24hr rise?

Thanks

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #272 on: March 04, 2011, 10:33:54 AM »
What's the best recipe for a 13 inch and 24hr rise?

bpizza,

I perhaps would go with the PJ clone formulation discussed at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60197.html#msg60197. However, you will need a mini-measuring spoon to measure out the small amount of yeast for a 13" pizza and you may have to adjust the amount of yeast based on your prevailing room temperature. If you would like to proceed, let me know and I should be able to convert the dough formulation in Reply 35 for the 13" size. Or you can use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html and do the conversion for yourself. In that case, I suggest that you use a thickness factor of 0.13642 and a bowl residue compensation of about 1.5%.

Peter

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #273 on: March 04, 2011, 10:06:21 PM »
17-17.5 oz of dough will approximate the thickness of the PJ crust in 13"
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #274 on: March 04, 2011, 10:25:15 PM »
17-17.5 oz of dough will approximate the thickness of the PJ crust in 13"

c0mpl3x,

I get 3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5 x 0.13642 = 18.11 ounces. I think what you are saying is that one should use a smaller thickness factor for the smaller size pizzas. I have only made the 14" size in this thread and have assumed that the same thickness factor is used across all PJ pizza sizes. I know that that isn't always the case, for any number of reasons.

Peter


 

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