Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 289776 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #550 on: June 17, 2013, 08:39:00 PM »
I used convection if that helps with the cheese.

Nate,

Thanks for telling me that you used the convection feature on your oven.  Your cheese sure looks nice.  :P  My home oven is very old and doesn't have a convection feature.

Norma



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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #551 on: June 19, 2013, 06:58:23 AM »
If anyone is interested this was my next attempt at cloning the PJ cheese sticks at Reply 14 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.msg260886.html#msg260886 

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #552 on: June 19, 2013, 12:46:37 PM »
Norma,

You might recall that I found an imitation butter flavoring from McCormick's that I felt might be a good candidate to use with the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread and a source of garlic flavor. The McCormick product I have in mind is not the one that you often see at retail in supermarkets. That product is like the one that you found locally (Shank's) and have been testing. Rather, it is the one shown at the Amazon website at http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012272X8/?tag=pizzamaking-20. The appeal of the latter product is that it has several of the ingredients used in the PJ Garlic sauce: soybean oil, natural and artificial flavors and lactic acid. It is the only butter flavoring that I could find that includes lactic acid. Some margarine products have lactic acid but none that we have been considering in this thread for cloning purposes.

This morning, I decided to see if McCormick's has a foodservice division that might be able to give you a sample of the McCormick's imitation butter flavor product for professionals. So, after finding a telephone number at the McCormick's website, I was able to speak with a customer service rep on the non-consumer side. After I told her what I was looking for, she said that they don't provide samples directly to interested parties but rather through brokers. I told her I was assisting you and that you are in Pennsylvania. She gave me the product number and suggested that you call the broker who services that part of the country and ask if a sample can be sent out to you. The item code number is 900023466. If you are interested, I can PM you with the name of the broker and the person to speak with.

I don't know if the above product is the magic bullet we are looking for but it seems to offer promise. It would be added to a margarine product like the Parkay Squeeze product along with a garlic product, such as the dry garlic powder. It might have to be thinned to get the right consistency but that is something that can be addressed later if needed.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #553 on: June 19, 2013, 08:12:17 PM »
Norma,

You might recall that I found an imitation butter flavoring from McCormick's that I felt might be a good candidate to use with the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread and a source of garlic flavor. The McCormick product I have in mind is not the one that you often see at retail in supermarkets. That product is like the one that you found locally (Shank's) and have been testing. Rather, it is the one shown at the Amazon website at http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012272X8/?tag=pizzamaking-20. The appeal of the latter product is that it has several of the ingredients used in the PJ Garlic sauce: soybean oil, natural and artificial flavors and lactic acid. It is the only butter flavoring that I could find that includes lactic acid. Some margarine products have lactic acid but none that we have been considering in this thread for cloning purposes.

This morning, I decided to see if McCormick's has a foodservice division that might be able to give you a sample of the McCormick's imitation butter flavor product for professionals. So, after finding a telephone number at the McCormick's website, I was able to speak with a customer service rep on the non-consumer side. After I told her what I was looking for, she said that they don't provide samples directly to interested parties but rather through brokers. I told her I was assisting you and that you are in Pennsylvania. She gave me the product number and suggested that you call the broker who services that part of the country and ask if a sample can be sent out to you. The item code number is 900023466. If you are interested, I can PM you with the name of the broker and the person to speak with.

I don't know if the above product is the magic bullet we are looking for but it seems to offer promise. It would be added to a margarine product like the Parkay Squeeze product along with a garlic product, such as the dry garlic powder. It might have to be thinned to get the right consistency but that is something that can be addressed later if needed.

Peter

Peter,

I do recall that you found the imitation butter flavoring from McCormick's that you felt might be a good candidate to use with the Parkay Squeeze and a source of garlic flavor.  I know that the McCormick product you have in mind is not the one that can be found easily at the retail level in supermarkets.  Interesting to hear that the imitation butter flavoring from McCormick has several of the ingredients used in the PJ Garlic sauce and the imitation butter flavoring does have lactic acid.

Thanks for calling McCormick's and speaking to a customer service rep on the non-consumer side of McCormick's.  I am interested in knowing the broker's name if you could give it to me in a PM.  I know it might not be the magic bullet we are looking for but we would not know until I could try it.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #554 on: August 06, 2013, 01:47:04 PM »
For the 12th time in 14 years, Papa John's was #1 in customer satisfaction among the major pizza chains, and PJ is offering 50% off on online pizza sales to celebrate the occasion: http://www.restaurantnews.com/papa-johns-thanks-america-for-voting-it-1-in-customer-satisfaction/?utm_source=August+6%2C+2013b&utm_campaign=080613b&utm_medium=email. Even though we get little feedback on the PJ clones in this thread, someone is reading the posts in the thread to the point where the thread in at the #8 position on the forum in terms of page views.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #555 on: August 08, 2013, 12:41:27 PM »
If anyone is interested in what Papa John looked like in his early days of making pizza this is a photo of before and now.  It was posted on Papa John's Pizza facebook page a couple of hours ago.  I don't think I recall seeing pizzas sitting on those racks waiting to be baked before.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #556 on: August 08, 2013, 01:49:24 PM »
I don't think I recall seeing pizzas sitting on those racks waiting to be baked before.
Norma,

I do not think that that is the normal practice. I would say that the photos were taken at a high production period, such as around lunch or dinner. That is what I observed at the PJ store near me but without any sauce or anything else on the skins. However, the skins were docked while held in the racks.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #557 on: August 08, 2013, 02:13:38 PM »
If anyone is interested in what Papa John looked like in his early days of making pizza this is a photo of before and now.  It was posted on Papa John's Pizza facebook page a couple of hours ago.  I don't think I recall seeing pizzas sitting on those racks waiting to be baked before.

Norma
Papa needs a makeover!  :-\
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #558 on: August 08, 2013, 05:15:16 PM »
Norma,

I do not think that that is the normal practice. I would say that the photos were taken at a high production period, such as around lunch or dinner. That is what I observed at the PJ store near me but without any sauce or anything else on the skins. However, the skins were docked while held in the racks.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that you don't think that is normal practice at PJ.  I didn't know you observed docked skins held in racks.  I wonder if that man behind Papa John is the same person.  He kind of looks like the same person to me.

Norma


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #559 on: August 08, 2013, 10:23:02 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for telling me that you don't think that is normal practice at PJ.  I didn't know you observed docked skins held in racks.  I wonder if that man behind Papa John is the same person.  He kind of looks like the same person to me.

Norma
I'll bet he is Norma....and the guy behind him at the mixer too.  :o
Maybe that is why that photo was taken....that's pretty cool if it is true don't you think?   8)
All of 'em need makeovers though!  :-D
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #560 on: August 09, 2013, 08:12:35 AM »
I'll bet he is Norma....and the guy behind him at the mixer too.  :o
Maybe that is why that photo was taken....that's pretty cool if it is true don't you think?   8)
All of 'em need makeovers though!  :-D

Bob,

I didn't think about the guy at the mixer being the same man too, but I believe you might be right.  I don't know if you looked at the comments on facebook of that post of PJ, but some of them are interesting.  I thought it was kind of neat that those 3 men had the same pose as years ago.  Why do you think they need makeovers? 

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #561 on: August 09, 2013, 08:21:51 AM »
Why do you think they need makeovers? 

Norma
Just being silly Norma.   But hey... how about that John Schnatter fella, eh?  He sure has aged well. Hardly looks a day older than his "Before" pic.  8)  I hear he's a real health nut....lifts weights alot and stuff. I don't blame him...he gonna need to live a loooong time to be able to spend all the dough he's got!  :)
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #562 on: August 09, 2013, 08:45:02 AM »
I don't know if you looked at the comments on facebook of that post of PJ, but some of them are interesting.
Norma,

One of the interesting comments at the PJ Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/papajohns) is that the dough balls used at the PJ stores are "practically frozen" when they are unloaded from the trailer. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that were true. In fact, for a dough that is to last up to eight days, that is exactly what I would recommend if I worked for PJ. A few years ago, I ran into a Domino's employee in a local supermarket where I shop (he had the Domino's logo on his shirt)and I asked him if the Domino's dough balls were frozen. While he didn't exactly answer my question, he hesitated so long before responding that I came away with the impression that the dough balls were quite cold if not frozen. Tom Lehmann has reported over at the PMQ Think Tank that Domino's uses frozen dough balls, but I was told by a Domino's customer service rep that the dough balls are fresh. I'm not sure that it makes a great deal of difference. As you know, we discovered over at the Mellow Mushroom thread that frozen dough balls can perform extraordinarily well, and few diners are likely to be any the wiser. But for marketing purposes, both PJ and Domino's want to play the 'fresh dough' card. It apparently plays better on Main Street.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #563 on: August 09, 2013, 08:49:41 AM »
Peter,
Do you think Domino's employees have to sign a secrecy statement when first hired?
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #564 on: August 09, 2013, 09:50:27 AM »
Norma,

One of the interesting comments at the PJ Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/papajohns) is that the dough balls used at the PJ stores are "practically frozen" when they are unloaded from the trailer. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that were true. In fact, for a dough that is to last up to eight days, that is exactly what I would recommend if I worked for PJ. A few years ago, I ran into a Domino's employee in a local supermarket where I shop (he had the Domino's logo on his shirt)and I asked him if the Domino's dough balls were frozen. While he didn't exactly answer my question, he hesitated so long before responding that I came away with the impression that the dough balls were quite cold if not frozen. Tom Lehmann has reported over at the PMQ Think Tank that Domino's uses frozen dough balls, but I was told by a Domino's customer service rep that the dough balls are fresh. I'm not sure that it makes a great deal of difference. As you know, we discovered over at the Mellow Mushroom thread that frozen dough balls can perform extraordinarily well, and few diners are likely to be any the wiser. But for marketing purposes, both PJ and Domino's want to play the 'fresh dough' card. It apparently plays better on Main Street.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that comment about the practically frozen dough balls was also interesting.  I know we found out over on the Mellow Mushroom thread that frozen dough balls can perform extraordinarily well, and few diners are likely to be any the wiser.  I can understand why for market purposes that both PJ and Domino's want to play the 'fresh dough' card.  The next time I visit PJ I might ask an employee if the dough balls are frozen when they receive them.

I was reading PMQ Magazine August's issue recently to see if I could get more marketing ideas for my own pizza stand.  I found the article about the X Factor interesting.  Part of the article talked about youth-targeted marketing tactics and an emphasis on simplicity and consistency having made Pizza X a Bloomington favorite for 30-plus years.  Mease and his business partner Lennie Busch broke away from Domino's.  They were employees of Domino's.  Another thing I found interesting in that article was on page 27 and the next few pages it says that they owe a debt to Domino's and it also mentions PJ also owes what is has done to Domino's.  This isn't the whole article that was in the PMQ Magazine, but part of it.  http://www.pmq.com/August-2013/Pizza-X-uses-youth-oriented-marketing-tactics-to-dominate-delivery-in-Bloomington-Ind/  I can't find the direct link to the X Factor article, but in it  says:  “I have tremendous respect for Domino's Pizza and Tom Monaghan and what they accomplished during their first 25 years.” Mease says.  “Monaghan revolutionized the business and demonstrated what was possible.  Many of us, from me to John Schnatter and everyone in between in the delivery business, owe our livelihood to him.”

Norma
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 09:52:27 AM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #565 on: August 09, 2013, 09:53:54 AM »
Just being silly Norma.   But hey... how about that John Schnatter fella, eh?  He sure has aged well. Hardly looks a day older than his "Before" pic.  8)  I hear he's a real health nut....lifts weights alot and stuff. I don't blame him...he gonna need to live a loooong time to be able to spend all the dough he's got!  :)

Bob,

I agree that Papa John has aged well.  I can only wish I could have some of his dough.   :angel:

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #566 on: August 09, 2013, 11:18:08 AM »
Do you think Domino's employees have to sign a secrecy statement when first hired?
Bob,

Most big companies require their employees to enter into non-disclosure agreements as part of their initial employment agreements. I would imagine that both Papa John's and Domino's have such agreements. Unfortunately, many low level employees, such as the ones hired at minimum wage, forget that they entered into such agreements, or maybe even flout them if they have a gripe, and are prone to revealing information that they should really keep secret. That is one of the reasons why many of the big chains use a commissary business model. It is at the commissary level that most of the trade secrets exist. At the store level, which are really just assembly operations, there are some but not a lot of important trade secrets. For stores that make their own dough, rather than from a commissary, there is a greater risk of disclosure of trade secrets although some of this risk can be mitigated by putting ingredients in containers that do not reveal source or other information. Jet's does a good job of this. Some chains, like Mellow Mushroom and Buddy's, do not state weights of what they consider to be a "serving". That is an indirect way of not disclosing some of their trade secrets.

The more important agreements are often those with top management personnel that are more privy to the company's trade secrets. In addition to non-disclosure provisions, their agreements can also include noncompete provisions.

Domino's is actually quite open about many parts of its business. It provides Nutrition Facts and ingredients lists at its website, it provides weights of what it considers to be a "serving", and it has participated with others in creating videos that describe many aspects of its business. Papa John's also publishes Nutrition Facts and serving size weights but not the ingredients list. However, PJ will sometimes reveal ingredients for some of its products if a customer or a consumer with concerns about allergies, veganism or other health or nutrition related concerns raises such issues with the company. But, this is done only on a case by case basis and directly with the customer or consumer. PJ will not provide documentation for all of their products as it once did, although a lot of their old information can be found on the Internet. 

Peter


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #567 on: August 14, 2013, 12:49:45 AM »
Peter,

I don't know if you saw the article on PJ's but there was an article about Papa John's on Yahoo News yesterday at http://news.yahoo.com/papa-johns-doesnt-want-know-food-194013379.html   

This is what Papa John's Pizza replied on facebook.  https://www.facebook.com/papajohns/posts/10151621872917639 

Some of those comments are interesting.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #568 on: August 14, 2013, 08:01:46 AM »
Norma,

Thank you for the articles. I had not seen them. However, they do confirm what has been posted before in this thread on the frozen versus fresh dough matter, and also the degree to which Papa John's discloses information on its ingredients to end users (see Reply 562 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg271739/topicseen.html#msg271739 and Reply 566 just before your last post).

The claim that PJ uses frozen dough has dogged PJ for years. As I recently noted, I think it is possible that some of the PJ doughs balls could well be frozen by the time they are delivered to PJ stores. When you are trying to keep dough balls just above freezing temperature, things will happen that occasionally and unintentionally push that temperature below freezing. Welcome to the real world. But as you and I know from our Mellow Mushroom experience, frozen dough balls are not the end of the world.

While I haven't yet read all of the Facebook comments, from those that I have read I do not see anything new as far as the PJ dough is concerned.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #569 on: August 14, 2013, 08:23:56 AM »
I read some of those comments and all I can say is that American pizza chain eaters have been conditioned to eat some real crap pizza. It's very sad IMO. Face Boogers left an right defending PJ's...."oh no; it's never frozen, I worked there!" etc.  How pathetic.  Frozen or not it's still a crummy pizza with a crummy dough man!  Sheesh!!   IMO that is.  ;)
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #570 on: August 14, 2013, 09:03:03 AM »
Norma,

Thank you for the articles. I had not seen them. However, they do confirm what has been posted before in this thread on the frozen versus fresh dough matter, and also the degree to which Papa John's discloses information on its ingredients to end users (see Reply 562 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg271739/topicseen.html#msg271739 and Reply 566 just before your last post).

The claim that PJ uses frozen dough has dogged PJ for years. As I recently noted, I think it is possible that some of the PJ doughs balls could well be frozen by the time they are delivered to PJ stores. When you are trying to keep dough balls just above freezing temperature, things will happen that occasionally and unintentionally push that temperature below freezing. Welcome to the real world. But as you and I know from our Mellow Mushroom experience, frozen dough balls are not the end of the world.

Peter

Peter,

I agree with what you posted and do think it is possible that some of the PJ dough balls could well be frozen by the time they are delivered to PJ stores.  I also agree that when trying to keep dough balls just above freezing temperatures things could happen.  I know from our work on the Mellow Mushroom thread frozen dough balls aren't the end of the world.  I don't think I would have known the difference in the taste of the final MM pizza with or without a frozen dough ball. 

That same article was posted at USNews too.  http://health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/eat-run/2013/08/13/what-papa-johns-doesnt-want-you-to-know-about-their-food

I get a few chuckles out of comments on facebook.  Maybe I should post your PJ clone pizza on PJ facebook page.  >:D That could rile people up more, or either have more people try to make their own PJ pizzas.  I think people would find out that your clone is quite tasty.  :P

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #571 on: August 14, 2013, 09:06:26 AM »
Frozen or not it's still a crummy pizza with a crummy dough man! 

Bob,

Did you ever try Peter's PJ clone pizza.  I think you would be surprised on how good it tastes if you didn't try it.  :pizza:

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #572 on: August 14, 2013, 09:09:04 AM »
Bob,

I do not see anything fundamentally wrong with the PJ dough formulation, although I can understand and appreciate that some people will not like a dough/crust and/or a pizza sauce with a lot of sugar. My quibbles with the PJ pizzas as sold commercially have always been in two areas.

First, is the cheese. At PJ's website, this is what PJ says about the cheese:

If you like cheese, you'll love our signature mozzarella cheese. It's exclusive to Papa John's and crafted from 100% mozzarella and high-quality milk by one of America's finest cheese producers. Mild and delicate, yet full-bodied in flavor, it's proof that cheese really can “make” the pizza!

The above description might lead one to conclude that only 100% mozzarella cheese is used, and is made from high-quality milk, and nothing more. However, as was recently pointed out at Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046/topicseen.html#msg260046, and also in prior posts dating back several years, the PJ cheese comprises the following ingredients:

Cheese: Part-skim mozzarella cheese (pasteurized milk, cultures, salt, enzymes [chymax – NOT animal derived]), modified food starch [derived from corn], powdered cellulose (added to prevent caking), whey protein concentrate, sodium citrate, sodium propionate (added as a preservative). Contains MILK

I am pretty certain that the supplier to PJ of the above cheese product is Leprino Foods, out of Colorado, and a giant in the cheese industry. Leprino will formulate a cheese product in any way that its customers want. Alas, in this case, I think that a freshly shredded mozzarella cheese is a much better option. Unfortunately, PJ is not likely to go that route. With over 4000 stores, it just doesn't fit the PJ business model.

My second quibble has to do with the assembly of pizzas in PJ's stores, at least the one near me. The dough balls aren't always in the optimum state (they are often either underfermented or overfermented) and skins prepared for slam times are often held too long in their racks. And the skins can be docked unmercifully, even in the rim areas. All of these problems can be remedied in a home setting by people who are careful and care about the end product.

As for some of the other items used to make PJ pizzas, the sauce is based on Stanislaus tomato products. For the type of pizza that PJ makes, you really can't do much better than that. Its pepperoni products come from reputable, quality sources. The sauce used by PJ is as follows:

Pizza Sauce: Vine-ripened fresh tomatoes, sunflower oil, sugar, salt, spices [oregano, black pepper, basil], garlic*, extra virgin olive oil and citric acid. *Dehydrated No trans fat.

For some, the sauce might be too sweet but that goes with the territory when purchasing PJ pizzas. In a home setting, a clone can be made with less sugar, and using Stanislaus (or Escalon or Classico) products.

So long as people choose to buy PJ pizzas rather than making clones at home that better meet their needs, they will continue to be disappointed in many cases.

Peter


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #573 on: August 14, 2013, 09:10:17 AM »
Bob,

Did you ever try Peter's PJ clone pizza.  I think you would be surprised on how good it tastes if you didn't try it.  :pizza:

Norma
Nope, but I'm sure Peter's is light years different than the luke warm, barely cooked through stuff I've gotten out of PJ's cardboard box.  :-\
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #574 on: August 14, 2013, 09:25:15 AM »
I get a few chuckles out of comments on facebook.  Maybe I should post your PJ clone pizza on PJ facebook page.  >:D That could rile people up more, or either have more people try to make their own PJ pizzas.  I think people would find out that your clone is quite tasty.  :P
Norma,

I labor under no pretenses that the PJ pizzas, clone or otherwise, are the end all or be all. My original reason for trying to reverse engineer and clone the PJ original dough was because the PJ pizzas scored well in customer satisfaction surveys and I had sufficient information in order to conduct my experiments. I was also able to purchase real PJ pizzas. I would never had proceeded with the project if I had not asked for and received the ingredients list from PJ at the time. The Nutrition Facts for the PJ pizzas existed then but they would have been inadequate without more. Also, back then, I knew considerably less about Nutrition Facts and how best to analyze and use them.

As for posting my clone formulation, I would rather not see that happen. I don't want to have to look out of my windows for men in black suits wearing sunglasses and hiding in the bushes and talking into their lapels, or someone hacking my email accounts, or cross-examining Craig and other members because I attended Craig's Summits. Also, I would prefer not to have to hire food tasters to sample my meals before consuming them.

Peter


 

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