Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza (Read 142496 times)

norma427 · « **Reply #80 on:** June 20, 2009, 10:48:10 AM »

Peter,
Thank you for your advise for trial of the PJ's clone and how to use the screens. I will keep a close eye on the bottom crusts.
After trying your PJ's clone and seeing if my hydration is high enough for this week, I will decide what to do next week. Maybe if my hydration isn't high enough I will try increasing the hydration next week. I would like to try the thinner version of Randy's American Style in the future.
I hate to keep asking you all these questions, but have you ever heard of anyone using a liquid corn syrup in place of sugar to make a pizza? I know they also have a dried version of the corn syrup, also. I know we used corn syrup as a sweetener along with sugar in our candy, fudge and caramel corn. I was just curious if this has been tried in place of sugar.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #81 on:** June 20, 2009, 02:07:27 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on June 20, 2009, 10:48:10 AM

I hate to keep asking you all these questions, but have you ever heard of anyone using a liquid corn syrup in place of sugar to make a pizza? I know they also have a dried version of the corn syrup, also. I know we used corn syrup as a sweetener along with sugar in our candy, fudge and caramel corn. I was just curious if this has been tried in place of sugar.

Norma,

I personally try to avoid using corn syrup, especially high fructose corn syrup, but I have heard of its use by some professionals. For example, Little Caesars, which also makes an American style pizza, uses both high fructose corn syrup and corn syrup solids in pizza dough for its Fund-Raising Program as detailed at http://www.pizzakit.com/lcpk_itk_ingredients.asp. I also believe that LC uses corn syrup solids in its store doughs. November once posted a LC dough recipe at Reply 62 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1515.msg33279.html#msg33279 that I used to make an LC clone but using regular Karo light corn syrup (I didn't have any high fructose corn syrup solids), as discussed at Reply 73 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1515.msg33473.html#msg33473.

Pizza Hut, also a producer of an American style pizza, also uses high fructose corn syrup for several of its doughs, many of which are delivered frozen to their stores in the U.S. (they still make fresh doughs in some places outside of the U.S.).

I believe that the reason why some professionals and chains use corn syrup is because it is cheaper for them than using regular sugar (sucrose). It also means not having to make hydration adjustments to compensate for the fact that liquid corn syrup contains 22-24% water. (Edit: An article at BusinessBaking.com at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9088.msg78634/topicseen.html#msg78634 discusses various aspects of the use of corn syrup in baked goods, including perceived benefits beyond cost.)

If I were to use something other than regular table sugar (sucrose), I would go with some of the more natural sweeteners, such as honey, molasses, maple syrup, non-diastatic malt (liquid or dry), or even brown sugar. Of course, the dough formulations would have to be adjusted to accommodate the liquid sweeteners.

To the best of my knowledge, Papa John's has never used corn syrup or corn syrup solids in any of its pizza doughs. To confirm this, I went back through my files of documents concerning PJ doughs going back many years and could not find any references to use of corn syrups or corn syrup solids in their doughs. They do use corn syrup in many of their sauces, like BBQ sauces, but that is an extremely common practice. These days, it's hard to find any BBQ sauce that does not contain corn syrup. However, because of rising health concerns about high fructose corn syrup, this is likely to change.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #82 on:** June 20, 2009, 03:01:29 PM »

Peter,
Thank you for your information about the corn syrup. I see you did use a dough forumlation from November and did use the corn syrup. That pizza looked great. I also saw you referenced Randy's pizza was made with light corn syrup, also.
I can understand how people today are trying to get away from high fructose items.
Thank you for taking the time to delve into your saved references.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #83 on:** June 20, 2009, 05:00:24 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on June 20, 2009, 03:01:29 PM

I also saw you referenced Randy's pizza was made with light corn syrup, also.

Norma,

Maybe I am getting old and my memory is starting to fail me but I don't recall that Randy uses, or has used, light corn syrup for his pizza dough. My recollection is that he uses honey. Possibly you are thinking of TronCarter's dough formulation at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5949.msg51025.html#msg51025 in which he substituted corn syrup for the honey in Randy's dough formulation.

BTW, when searching the above topic, I found this interesting thread on using corn syrup as a substitute for sugar: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4447.msg37059/topicseen.html#msg37059.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #84 on:** June 20, 2009, 05:46:15 PM »

Peter,
Sorry your memory isn't failing you, it was mine. I had read in RE: Ceasar Dough Recipe at reply #32 that Illini Pizza had substituted light corn syrup instead of honey for Randy's pizza. That is why I said Randy's pizza was made with corn syrup, also.
Thank you for the other information about the pizza made with corn syrup.
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #85 on:** June 22, 2009, 05:17:07 PM »

Peter,
Here is the Papa John's Clone dough I made Friday. It was how it looked in the deli case today. I will let you know how it turns out.
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #86 on:** June 22, 2009, 05:21:20 PM »

Peter,
Sorry, I forgot to add the picture.

Norma

bonesbr549 · « **Reply #87 on:** June 23, 2009, 09:45:57 PM »

Thanks for Posting the PJ's clone I'm new to this but after researching here and trying a few things of my own, I've got a good thing going. My son(13) pretty much will only eat PJ's and is picky on the rest of food as well. Never been able to get him to try home made. I've been doing home made since I was his age. I gave your dough a shot and it worked well. I live near Philly now and went down to the Italian market and bought some high gluten flour IDY and a dacor stone and decided to start having a go at it. My digital scale will not read below whole grams so all I could do is get close. I also took the advice and ordered some 6-in1's and they are great! The first try was made put in the fridge and let work for 5 days. It was very good and the son loved it. I was in a hurry last night and decided what would it be like to just to mix and use. It was great as well. The first try was a devil to spread out on the peel(the 5 day version). It was like rubber, but managed to make it and it cooked great on the stone (550) for about 8 minutes. Last nights version was a great dough. It was smooth easy to work and cooked up like a dream. I mixed and let set(in a bowl) in a larger bowl of hot water for an hour (hopefully to speed things up) and it helped. I would guess it came up about 50% in size. The crust was nice and brown and chewy on the inside. Here is what I had:

Flour 354grm
Water 200grm
IDY 1/2 tsp (on one pie and 1tsp on a second for comparison)
Salt 6grm
Olive Oil 6grm
Sugar 17grm

Add water salt sugar oil and stir till dissolved in a Kitchen aid. Mix IDY with HGF mix till ball comes together and switch to dough hook. Run at 5-6 for 2 minutes and lower to 2 and run for 8 minutes more. Weight 21.3 oz. I coated the ball with olive oil and put in bowl and set that one in another bowl of hot water and covered for 1 hour changing the water once. I dusted in a mixture of simolina flour and bread flour (50/50) and dusted the peel and spread out. Covered with veggies and fresh peperoni and buffalo mozz and fresh provelone from Dabruno's in Philly (God I love that place) sprinkled fresh graded parma and cooked at 550 for 8 minutes rotating about every 2 min's moved to the top rack for a quick broil to brown the cheese a bit (I like it that way) and it was fantastic! Here is my sauce:

1 can 6-in-1, 4t olive oil, 3.5 t sugar, ¼ t salt, ½ t oregano, ½ t garlic powder, ¼ t crushed fennel seed(ground with mortar), 5 basil leaves(I keep a pot growing in the kitchen window), ¼ t onion powder, and a dash of white pepper.

The wife and kids got me a mini food processor a while back for me to mix my rib rub mix and its great for this. Its about 3 cups. I drain the 6-in-1 through a strainer over a bowl while getting the other ingredients together. I dice the basil and all ingredients except the oil in the processor on high for a few moments and drizzle the oil in slowly to mix well. If by then its not spinning well, I add a touch more oil till its moving slowly around the bowl. Maybe another teaspoon max. Put in a bowl for use This will make about 3 12-14" pies. The sauce is killer. Even my son came in and asked what smelled so good! I made him one with just peperoni and cheese and for the wife and I one with the same plus some fresh veggies. Both pies were great. The crust was well done and the inside stayed chewy. My only problem at this point is that in order to get the pie to slide off my metal peel I dust with flour. The pies come out ok, but the flour is burning and creating smoke when I open the oven. Anybody got any ideas on how to get the pie off without flouring the peel? Sorry I did not think to take any pics. I've made the sauce twice now and both times great so I have something to run with. Next I want sourdough!!!! Thanks again for all the info!

Pete-zza · « **Reply #88 on:** June 23, 2009, 10:38:48 PM »

bonesbr549,

I am glad to hear that your recent efforts at Papa John's clones turned out well and that the pizzas have been well received by your son. Maybe in due course you can teach your son how to make the pizzas also. In my experience, kids who take an "ownership" interest in their pizzas are more likely to eat them also.

I noticed that you significantly reduced the amount of oil in the dough formulation you posted. Next time, you may want to increase the amount of water to compensate for the reduction in the oil. Otherwise, the dough may be stiffer than desired and harder to work with. Many people tend to forget that oil has a "wetting" effect also.

The best solution to the peel sticking problem is to use a wooden peel. I have two types of peels--one made of wood and a metal one. I use the wooden peel to load unbaked pizzas into the oven and the metal one to move the pizzas around while in the oven and to remove them when they are done baking. It is possible to use a metal peel for small pizzas with few toppings but the dough you made was 21.3 ounces before putting anything on it. By the time you were done topping it, the pizza perhaps weighed close to 35 ounces, if not more. That's a lot of weight for a metal peel. To handle that weight, you would have to use a lot of flour. If too much of that flour ends up in the oven on the stone, it will bake up with a bitter flavor. You should be able to get away with a lot less flour if you use a wooden peel. As you may have noted, I use a pizza screen to make the PJ clones. That avoids the flour issue altogether.

BTW, my digital scale also weighs in whole grams only. There are a few members with more accurate (and expensive) scales, but for most of us using the rounded out numbers is plenty good enough.

I hope sometime you can post some photos of your future PJ clones.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #89 on:** June 24, 2009, 06:44:36 AM »

bonesbr549,
That's great to hear of your success!

Pizza making is fun and I am also new to making pizza. 13 weeks to be exact. I have learned a lot, but have so much more to learn. Keep up the good work.
Much success to you!
Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #90 on:** June 24, 2009, 06:53:22 AM »

Peter,
The Papa John's clone was a success. Although my pictures of the pizza don't nearly look as tasty as yours, the crust tasted really good. My crust was more light and airy, but not like yours. The taste of the crust was great. I will try more experimentation, but this week I am too busy. Maybe next week I will try the higher hydration. Maybe 60%.
Thank you for your Papa's John clone recipe. Thank you and all the members of this forum for helping me understand all the ways to make pizza. Here are a few pictures.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #91 on:** June 24, 2009, 09:13:19 AM »

Norma,

Your pizza looks very tasty to me. Since it was the first time for you using the PJ clone recipe, I think you did very well. Remember also that you used a thinner dough.

Did you use the pizza screens (one or more?) and did you offer, or do you plan to offer, the PJ slices/whole pizzas for sale?

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #92 on:** June 24, 2009, 09:44:43 AM »

Peter,
Thank you for the compliment.
I used one screen as I already do. I noticed after I took it off the screen the bottom browned faster, because of the added oil. It was only about 15 seconds until the crust was finished. I like the taste of the crust much better. When I get to try higher hydration, I will see how that affects the crust.
I don't know if I plan on offering the PJ's Clone for sale at this time. I am just experimenting right now with different formulations. Maybe in the future I will. I first want to make sure I have the best tasting crust I can make. If I can consistently make the same formulation week after week with various temperatures, longer fermentation and humidity, then I can make that decision. With having a longer ferment, I now can see how that effects the taste of the crust.
Thank you for your PJ's Clone forumlation!

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #93 on:** June 24, 2009, 10:55:46 AM »

Quote from: norma427 on June 24, 2009, 09:44:43 AM

I noticed after I took it off the screen the bottom browned faster, because of the added oil. It was only about 15 seconds until the crust was finished.

Norma,

Oil has good heat transfer characteristics but, at 4.8% sugar, I believe that it was the sugar that was more responsible for the degree of bottom crust coloration.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #94 on:** June 24, 2009, 04:09:54 PM »

Peter,
Thank you for the information. I wonder why then, in using my regular Tom Lehmann's formula for NY Style pizza there isn't any sugar for a browner crust?

I thought the added sugar was for longer fermentation for the PJ's clone. Sorry, I didn't mean to post on another formula on this post, but just wondered.
Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #95 on:** June 24, 2009, 04:47:04 PM »

Norma,

The biggest difference is that the Lehmann dough formulation is intended to be used to make a NY style dough that is to be baked directly on a hot stone surface, such as the stones in a deck oven. For that application, you don't want to have a lot of sugar in the dough since it can lead to premature or excessive bottom crust browning. You might add sugar to such a dough if you want to use a cold fermentation that goes beyond a couple of days. If you add sugar and you later decide that you don't want the longer fermentation time after all, the added sugar will manifest itself as more crust color (or worse). Tom Lehmann discusses these aspects at a PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=26890#26890. In fact, a good part of the thread where that post appears makes for a good read on sugar in a dough in its many possible forms.

A typical Papa John's dough, whether the real thing or a clone such as discussed in this thread, includes sugar for multiple purposes. Crust coloration is one, but a sweeter tasting crust is a second reason. The sweeter tasting crust, and a sweeter sauce as well, are signature features of a PJ pizza. No doubt, the higher sugar levels of a PJ dough help sustain the yeast through a long fermentation time, but there is plenty enough sugar in the dough for all of its many purposes. It is also important to keep in mind that since a typical PJ pizza is baked on a pizza screen and in a conveyor oven, there is little risk of getting an overly dark or burned bottom crust.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #96 on:** June 24, 2009, 05:34:53 PM »

Peter,
Thank you for that post and thread. It was interesting and I have learned from reading.
Norma

smarttowers · « **Reply #97 on:** June 28, 2009, 08:24:01 PM »

Pete was wondering if you could help me select a dough for PJ clone that would be appropriate for a 48 hour rise?

Using a bread flour and got VWG to try to increase the protein. Was going to use the KABF/VWG percentages to calculate it since I don't know the protein of the flour.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #98 on:** June 28, 2009, 10:04:05 PM »

smarttowers,

I describe a roughly two day PJ clone dough at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217. That version makes use of the King Arthur bread flour. When I used that flour to make the pizza shown in Reply 20, I did not supplement it with vital wheat gluten (VWG). However, if you wish to increase the protein content of the KABF, you can use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/ to do the calculations. For example, you can increase the protein content of the KABF, which is 12.7%, to something that approximates the King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour, which has a protein content of 14.2%. You should keep in mind, however, that you may have to adjust the hydration of the dough to compensate for the addition of the VWG.

For the dough for the pizza at Reply 20, I used a small amount of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C). It's up to you but I don't think that you need to do the same.

Peter

smarttowers · « **Reply #99 on:** June 29, 2009, 12:12:43 AM »

Ok I went ahead and made the dough you suggested with a slight variation of increasing the yeast a little bit.

Here is the formulation I used:

Flour (100%):
Water (56.5%):
IDY (.3%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (170.05%):
Single Ball:

928.28 g | 32.74 oz | 2.05 lbs
524.48 g | 18.5 oz | 1.16 lbs
2.78 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.92 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
16.24 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.91 tsp | 0.97 tbsp
67.76 g | 2.39 oz | 0.15 lbs | 4.97 tbsp | 0.31 cups
38.99 g | 1.38 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.78 tsp | 3.26 tbsp
1578.55 g | 55.68 oz | 3.48 lbs | TF = 0.1384663
789.27 g | 27.84 oz | 1.74 lbs

I made two balls one I will make in ~ 2 days the other probably a couple days later. Now my next question is I do not have a pizza screen all I have is a pan similar to this http://www.amazon.com/OvenStuff-Non-Stick-Inch-Pizza-Pan/dp/B001BCNRF6/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1246247870&sr=1-12. Now I tried making the PJ clone dough twice before once messed it up by doing it on the stone and another time I made it and had the oven too high for my pan and the bottom didn't cook quick enough so i tried transferring it to the stone to cook it some and resulted in a destroyed pizza. We still ate it and it did end up done and the crust that was not destroyed was very tasty actually.

So my question is with a pan similar to the one I posted what would be a good oven temperature to bake the pie at to have it come out fully cooked?