Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza

[c0mpl3x]

pete:

i've been following your thread for a little over a year, i finally sat down and read it beyond page two


i've worked for multiple mom and pop shops, along with vocellis an east coast pizza chain. ~240 stores.  dough comes from WPP dough in johnstown in case you don't know.

and currently am employed by papa john's as a cook/driver
the large pizza uses 48 slices.  24 outside, 16 mid, 8 center with a void dead center to ease cutting and snowplowing of the topping. 
hm..  the dustinator in-store feels like sand.  very dry like day old cornmeal on a floater table.  if you want im sure i can get you some of this.  dough in-store can sit out all day on the table with little overproofing.  they change the yeast in the dough based on regional and temperature(winter/summer) differences such as lower humidity in winter. ovens used are the middleby marshall, but they run at 6:30 tunnel time and ~544ºf .  sauce is never refrigerated, always kept room temp.  can't think of much else. if you want, i'll snag you a sauce label and a cheese label if you want.  all their toppings are in-house PJ branded except the anchovies.


i'm sure i can get you more info as an employee over a consumer, anything you have in mind?     on a side note, i currently have a single doughball of your pj-clone proofing in my fridge as we speak.  aiming for a 24-36 hour proof.   added 1tsp powered milk due to my taste in dough, and i used corn oil instead of soybean due to taste again.   i've experimented heavily with replicating pizzeria uno deep dish and have got damn close, but the popcorn butter they use to make the dough is hell to find.

[Pete-zza]

bbp c0mpl3x,

Thank you very much for your kind offers. However, as you may know from reading this thread, over time I have learned a lot about the PJ pizzas, including a fair amount of information that was given to me by PJs itself a few years ago. One piece of information that has escaped me thus far is the weight of a dough ball used to make a 14" pizza. However, as an employee of PJs, you no doubt are under an obligation of confidentiality to preserve and protect PJ's trade secrets. So I wouldn't want you to get into trouble by revealing anything that you are not allowed to disclose.

I look forward to the results you get with the PJ clone dough you made.

Peter

[c0mpl3x]

i believe that the large dough is 22oz, i will check when i get there shortly. 

[c0mpl3x]

i believe that the large dough is 22oz, i will check when i get there shortly. 

correction. 
xl dough is 20oz for 16"
lg dough is 16oz for 14"
med dough is 12oz for 12"
sm dough is 10oz for 10"

my store does not use the 6.5"/8" personal size that the free cinnapies used.  also discontinued the 14" square 'pan pizza' they used to carry LC style

[c0mpl3x]

update on the dough.  seems to be a very hard dough.  still cold, almost doubled.  will take it out in a little and let it warm up see if it softens.   i have a feeling this is going to turn out sicilian style 

on a side note, i am speed thawing a cafe 80005 in case the dough goes south.  5 hours from freezer to useable.  put it back in the freezer when fully thawed to get it cold again on the outside so you can handle it.     

[Pete-zza]

bbp c0mpl3x,

Thanks for posting the PJ dough ball weight information.

The main PJ clone pizza size that I have been making is the 14" size. For that size, I have been using a dough ball weight that has ranged from about 20 ounces to 22 ounces. I originally started at 20 ounces but as I conducted weight tests in my home electric oven and as I learned more about the PJ pizzas, I inched that up to around 22 ounces. My main benchmark was a 14" PJ pepperoni pizza. When making a clone of that pizza, I tried to get the finished dough weight out of my electric oven to be the same as I calculated and estimated using anecdotal information on typical sauce and cheese weights (more on this below) and also Papa John's own nutrition data and weights of pizzas I purchased from my local PJ store. For example, if you look at the PJ nutrition data on a 14" original pepperoni pizza, at http://www.papajohns.com/menu/popup_pepperoni.shtm, a typical 14" PJ pepperoni pizza, consisting of eight slices, should weigh about 8 x 130 = 1040 grams, or 38.68 ounces. Since PJ's updates its nutrition data from time to time I do not recall what the numbers were that I used but the current numbers should suffice for our analysis. FYI, as I noted at Reply 135 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg81078.html#msg81078, the PJ nutrition data is for fully baked pizzas. Presumably there is some weight loss during baking, so the unbaked pizza should weigh more than the weight calculated from the nutrition data. I had no way of knowing those losses when using a MM conveyor oven and bake temperatures and times.

For my purposes in assembling a 14" clone PJ pepperoni pizza, I used about 5.5 ounces of sauce by weight, around 8.5-9 ounces (by weight) of diced mozzarella cheese, and about 3 ounces of pepperoni slices (about 44 slices versus the regulation 48 slices). I know that PJ uses "Spoodle" type ladles to measure out the sauce (John Schnatter once said that for a typical pizza 5 ounces of sauce was used, presumably by volume) and portioning cups to measure out the cheese (John Schnatter said two cups, presumably using portioning cups, not one-cup measuring cups). Using the PJ weight data mentioned above for the 14" size, and adjusting it to compensate for some weight loss during baking, and then backing out the weights of sauce, cheese and pepperoni slices, I ended up with the 20-22 ounce dough ball weights. Obviously, if my weights of sauce, cheese and pepperoni slices are off, or my oven produces greater weight losses than your MM oven, my dough ball numbers could be off. However, I was pretty much able to make a 14" PJ pepperoni clone pizza in my home oven that reasonably fit the PJ weight data and the weights of 14" pepperoni pizzas that I purchased from PJs. Maybe you can spot something in my numbers that might account for the differences between my 14" clone pepperoni pizzas and PJ"s 14" pepperoni pizzas.

If you notice any other information that I have posted in this thread that does not appear to be correct, please feel free to comment, if you can do so without telling me things that you are obligated to maintain in secrecy.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

update on the dough.  seems to be a very hard dough.  still cold, almost doubled.  will take it out in a little and let it warm up see if it softens. 

bbp c0mpl3x,

Can you tell me which PJ clone dough formulation you used to make your dough? And did you weigh the flour and water?

Peter

[c0mpl3x]

bbp c0mpl3x,

Can you tell me which PJ clone dough formulation you used to make your dough? And did you weigh the flour and water?

Peter

well, i know the cheese comes in frozen.  i know this adds a great deal of moisture. 95% sure the portion cup is a 4oz cup as i've worked pizza shops before that have used the same cup only it was marked. sausage mushroom cheese  all use 4oz at pj's.

flour water i used your converted volume measurement.  i'm in a slight legal battle over backpay and theft of (my) property with a pizza shop i worked at a few months ago, which includes my digital scale.  its a real bitch when the owner didn't keep payroll employees

[c0mpl3x]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/c0mpl3x/0722101627.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/c0mpl3x/0722101628.jpg

edit #30: can't get images to work?

16" pizza.  topped it PJ style but kept the pepperoni up top.   

sad thing is pete, the dough went rather south.  opened it up and it smelled rank so i tossed it.  dough pictured is cafe 80005, i had 5 people eating it and had to do something so like i said last night, i salvaged it by thawing out dough beforehand.  needed another hour thawing though, it's slightly underproofed

[Guitar100]

I wish i was a baker or someone who understands weight conversions.I`ve tried to study it but to complex for me.Steve,the administrator,tried to help many months ago but its like a first grader looking at algebra.I would love to make a pizza like in the first post.All i understand is cups,teaspoons and tablespoons.Would it be possible for someone to convert a 14" Papa John`s clone for me in first grader language?   Thanks for listening.

[Pete-zza]

sad thing is pete, the dough went rather south.  opened it up and it smelled rank so i tossed it.

bbp c0mpl3x,

I'm sorry your PJ clone dough did not work out. If you can tell me which PJ clone recipe you used and how you made and managed the dough, I'd be happy to try to diagnose what happened. I don't use powdered milk in the PJ clone doughs but it is hard to see how that might have caused the odor you mentioned unless, possibly, you used a long room temperature fermentation. I have never had a PJ clone dough smell bad.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I wish i was a baker or someone who understands weight conversions.I`ve tried to study it but to complex for me.Steve,the administrator,tried to help many months ago but its like a first grader looking at algebra.I would love to make a pizza like in the first post.All i understand is cups,teaspoons and tablespoons.Would it be possible for someone to convert a 14" Papa John`s clone for me in first grader language?   Thanks for listening.

Guitar100,

Most of our members get around the problem you have by using a digital scale. It is only needed to weigh the flour and water since the dough formulations I post list the volume measurements for all of the other ingredients used to make doughs. The reason why I don't convert weights of flour and water to volume measurements is because no two people measure out volumes of flour and water the same way. For example, for flour I can think of at least a half dozen ways to measure it out volumetrically, and if I were to weigh the flours on a scale I would get at least six different weight values. Because not all members have digital scales or choose not to use them for some reason, one of our members, November, developed a Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator specifically for such members. It is shown at http://tools.foodsim.com/. If you check the pull-down menu under "Measurement Method", you will find five ways of measuring out flour volumetrically. I usually recommend the Textbook method but you can select and use any one of those choices. Then, you can use the "Measurement Conversion" section of the calculator to convert weights (in either ounces or grams) of flour to volume measurements based on the particular measuring cups and measuring spoons you have at your disposal. It took literally hundreds of flour measurements for November to design the calculator, using different measuring cup sizes, so the results should be fairly accurate. However, volume measurements of flour are inherently imprecise so no one can guarantee that your volume measurements will be exactly the same as weight measurements.

To convert weights of water to volume measurements, you should select "Water" in the "Substance" pull-down menu.

Peter

[Guitar100]

Ok....Thanks.I`ll give it a try.

[Guitar100]

I want to apologize to everyone for my "noob-ness".I`m trying to understand......Peter,if i get a digital scale and according to the third post for a 14" pizza,flour should weight 12.5 oz , water  7.06 oz , IDY 0.02 oz , salt 0.22 oz , veg.oil 0.91 oz , sugar 0.6 oz.

Thanks for your time.

.....Ricky.....

[Pete-zza]

I want to apologize to everyone for my "noob-ness".I`m trying to understand......Peter,if i get a digital scale and according to the third post for a 14" pizza,flour should weight 12.5 oz , water  7.06 oz , IDY 0.02 oz , salt 0.22 oz , veg.oil 0.91 oz , sugar 0.6 oz.

Ricky,

No need to apologize. We were all newbies at one point.

I assume you are referring to this dough recipe, from Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197:

Flour (100%): Water (56.5%): IDY (0.14%): Salt (1.75%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%): Sugar (4.8%): Total (170.49%):

354.44 g  |  12.5 oz | 0.78 lbs 200.26 g  |  7.06 oz | 0.44 lbs 0.5 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp 6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp 25.87 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.7 tsp | 1.9 tbsp 17.01 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.27 tsp | 1.42 tbsp 604.28 g | 21.31 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A

Most good digital scales can handle both grams and ounces. Ideally, you want to get a scale that has an accuracy to one gram and 0.1 ounce. Even then, you will have to round off some of the numbers to the nearest gram or 0.1 ounce. For example, 7.06 ounces (for the water) rounds off to 7.1 ounces on the scale. 354.44 grams (for the flour) would round off to 354 grams.

There is no need to weigh the IDY, salt, sugar or oil. Their values are too small for most scales to weigh. You can safely use the volume measurements. These should also be rounded off, as follows:

0.16 t. IDY= about 1/8 t. + a bit less than one half of 1/8 t. (you can just eyeball this)
1.11 t. salt = about 1 1/8 t.
5.7 t. oil = about 5 3/4 t.
4.27 t. sugar = about 4 1/4 t.

The hardest part of the above recipe is following the instructions carefully and keeping everything cold so that the dough can last several days in the refrigerator without overfermenting. Several members have reported good results using the dough recipe at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217. That recipe is for a two-day dough and might be easier for a newbie.

Peter

[Guitar100]

Thank you Peter....I feel more confident now. You mentioned a pizza sheet.Can i still use my pizza stone? Again,thank you.

[Pete-zza]

You mentioned a pizza sheet.Can i still use my pizza stone?

Ricky,

Since I was trying to replicate a Papa John's pizza, and since they use pizza screens, I also used pizza screens. However, there are some members who have used pizzas stones. See, for example, the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10376.msg91459.html#msg91459 and Reply 136 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg82317.html#msg82317. However, when using a pizza stone you have to be careful that the bottom of the crust doesn't brown too quickly or even burn. This can happen because the dough includes a lot of sugar. Also, you don't want to overload the pizza with cheese and toppings because that is more likely to lead to premature bottom crust browning and you can end up with the rest of the pizza being insufficiently baked.

Peter

[Guitar100]

Peter,I want to thank you for your advice.I made the pizza from reply #20....and it came out GREAT! I`m eating as i type.I bought a digital scale as you recommended,followed the recipe to a "T". I did use a pizza stone,for i dont have a pizza screen,yet.This is the best pizza i ever made.Again,Thank you.....   O`my,the crust is awesome.....Great flavor!
I want to make like a million dough balls and freeze them.When is the best time to put in freezer? After two days in fridge?

[Pete-zza]

Ricky,

I'm glad that everything worked out so well for you.

I have never frozen a PJ clone dough but I don't see any reason why you can't do it. A while back I posted Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10056.msg89496/topicseen.html#msg89496 in which I described the results that Cook's Illustrated got when they froze dough before fermenting and after fermenting and concluded that the results were better freezing the dough after fermenting rather than at the outset. However, most home refrigerators have static freezers that cycle on and off, which can result in a degradation of dough performance in a fairly short period of time. Typically, the recommended outside limit is about 10-15 days of freezing to minimize the effects of freezing in static freezers. So you may not want to make a lifetime supply of dough balls and freeze them. Commercial frozen pizza dough companies use extremely low temperatures and flash freezing, which can extend the useful life of the dough balls for many months without significant degradation of performance.

In your case, you might try both freezing approaches, right after making and after fermenting for about two days. You might also test different freeze times to see where dough performance starts to fall off. Usually when I know up front that I am going to freeze dough balls, I double or triple the amount of yeast to compensate for the fact that freezing kills some of the yeast. That is what commercial frozen dough ball companies do, along with other measures. However, Cook's Illustrated did not do that for their tests. If you do decide to try freezing, please let us know what approach you use and with what results. That is how we all learn.

Peter

[Guitar100]

Hi Peter......I made a pizza today. Unfortunately , not the same results as the last one.I did everything exactly the same except did not use a pizza stone. My wife bought me a pizza sheet but has hundreds of tiny holes in the bottom.The crust didnt rise very much.The top of crust looked very well done, but the inside seemed raw.Could it had been the hole-ly pizza sheet?I also rolled out the dough a bit larger.About 15"....

.....Ricky.....