Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza

[Pete-zza]

Even though the Expanded Pizza Dough Calculator doesn't have fields for ascorbic acid and sunflower oil, I instead used the input fields of olive oil and baking soda for the percentage calculation (I assumed every input field had the same basic percentage calculation).

james456,

The weights of the ingredients other than flour are based on a percent of the formula flour but the conversions from weights to volume measurements are different for the different ingredients (although some of the oil conversions are the same).

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I saw a new thread at the PMQ Think Tank today in which some of the members discuss how Papa John's ships dough balls that may be frozen. According to the thread, the practice that Papa John's allegedly follows is to ship dough balls at 32 degrees F, or just below freezing, allowing them to say in its ads that its dough balls are fresh. I wouldn't be surprised if some dough balls do actually freeze, most likely unintentionally, on their way to their destination in refrigerated trucks. The thread also notes that dough balls are not supposed to be held beyond seven days in the stores. Although I used a window of five days for the original PJ dough clone, as discussed in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58196.html#msg58196 I estimated a window of 6-8 days. So, seven days fits right in the middle of that range.

I personally haven't tried freezing PJ clone dough balls but I don't see any reason why they can't be frozen, at least for brief periods. Knowing in advance that I want to freeze the dough balls, I would perhaps increase the amount of yeast by 50-100%.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

While searching for something else at the Middleby Marshall website, I came across a video of John Schnatter, the founder of Papa John's, in which he discusses the merits of the WOW! conveyor oven from Middleby Marshall that his company uses in its stores, or at least many of the newer ones. The video can be accessed by going to http://www.middleby.com/corp_contact.htm, then clicking on Company Overview + Video! (at the top of the page), and then clicking on John Schnatter, Papa John's (under Middleby Media Center).

The WOW! video under the Middleby Media Center is also an interesting video on the WOW! oven.

As one might suspect, it is hard to get a standard home oven to behave like a conveyor oven like the WOW! oven. There is no way that I can bake a Papa John's clone pizza in my home oven in about 5 minutes, even a basic PJ clone pizza without a lot on it. My longer bake will result in greater weight losses during baking. That is one of the reasons why I increased the dough ball weight a bit over time above the original 21-ounce dough ball weight that I started out with in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197. I was trying to get my PJ clones to match the weights of the real PJ pizzas as given at the PJ website. I later learned (as previously reported) that a real PJ pizza can vary from the stated weights (under the Nutrition Facts) by plus or minus 20% (as permitted by government regulations). So, slight dough ball weight variations will almost always fall within the 20% variance.

Peter

[Sonic98]

This is a lot of useful information, but where is the actual recipe for your clone? Should I go back to your original reverse engineering thread? Also, have you tried to make the sauce they used when they were still selling the pan pizza. I found that sauce and pizza much better than their other offerings and have gone to PJ much less since they stop selling it

[Pete-zza]

This is a lot of useful information, but where is the actual recipe for your clone? Should I go back to your original reverse engineering thread? Also, have you tried to make the sauce they used when they were still selling the pan pizza. I found that sauce and pizza much better than their other offerings and have gone to PJ much less since they stop selling it

Sonic98,

I would say that the Papa John's dough clone recipe that I came up with that comes closest to what I believe Papa John's does in its business is the PJ dough clone recipe given in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197. Papa John's does not make more than one version of its dough--only the 5-8 day version. I came up with several other versions because I know that there are members who won't want to wait 5-8 days for the dough to be ready to use. So, I came up with several variations even though the results may not be exactly like the 5-8 day version. Of the other versions I came up with, I would say that possibly the most popular is the 2-day version given at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217. Another popular version is the PJ "emergency" clone dough version given at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. The dough for that version can be made and used within a few hours.

I did not attempt to reverse engineer and clone the PJ sauce that PJ used for its now defunct pan pizzas. I only tried to reverse engineer and clone the sauce used by PJ when I commenced my reverse engineering/cloning effort, using a small sample of that sauce. I described my results, using different possible tomatoes, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg56931.html#msg56931.

Peter

[Ardent1]

I just wanted to thank all of the people posting pictures, and Pete for working on this. I had been looking for recipes for Papa John's dough, the cheese, and the sauce for a long time. I've also REALLLYYYY wanted to know how they made their Perfect Pan Pizza, but I'm afraid that knowledge may be lost now as they no longer make it. If you have any way of making the dough and sauce of the Perfect Pan, that would be AWESOME! Still, you've done quite enough already.

While I don't have a lot of the fancy tools you guys seem to have, I might try this one day. The results shown are a bit inspiring, and at the very least seem aesthetically close to how Papa John's pizza generally looks. Some of the pictures here were quite shocking.

As someone fairly new to making pizza at home, Ive noticed a lot of the cheese companies don't really seem willing to sell to us "lesser folk" though. I was extremely happy, thanking God when I found out who seems to supply Papa John's with their cheese. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I could get that unless I start a business and want to buy it by the ton. Do you have any recommendations or advice on cheese for this recipe that is accessible by normal humans, that tastes good without having a bunch of crazy chemicals that will turn me into a mutant?

Thank you, and take care!

[Pete-zza]

Ardent1,

I have a three-ring binder of what I have found on Papa John's pizzas from the time that I started the reverse engineering/cloning project discussed in this thread. I reviewed those materials this morning and found the following ingredients lists for the PJ pan pizza:

Papa John's Pan dough 6": Enriched flour (bleached wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, and folic acid), water, shortening (partially hydrogenated vegetable oil, soybean and/or cottonseed oils), yeast, extra virgin olive oil, sugar, salt, glycerin, wheat starch, L-cysteine hydrochloride, Ammonium sulfate. (6/2/05)

Pan Pizza Shells: Enriched Flour (Bleached Wheat Flour, Malted Barley, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Water, Soybean Oil, Palm Oil, Yeast, Olive Oil, Sugar, Salt, Glycerine, Wheat Starch, L-Cysteine Hydrochloride, Ammonium Sulfate. (3/6/06)

It is hard enough to reverse engineer and clone an existing product never mind a defunct one, so I will leave to you and others to try to reverse engineer and clone the former PJ pan pizzas. If you decide to tackle such a project, feel free to start a new thread on your results.

With respect to the cheeses that Papa John's uses on its pizzas, you aren't likely to get much help from Leprino Foods, the supplier of cheeses to Papa John's. They are extremely secretive about their products, including at their website, making it almost impossible as individuals not in the pizza business to determine the precise blend of cheeses they sell to Papa John's or even the Nutrition facts for their cheeses. I recently tried to refer back to an informative piece at their website on their QLC/IQF cheeses only to discover that it was taken down. However, as you will see from Reply 9 in this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58413/topicseen.html#msg58413, one of Leprino Food's specialties is a flash frozen cheese (blend) that purportedly retains the original flavors and can also endure long periods in storage. I don't see any benefit for individuals to try to replicate that blend. I would just find the best mozzarella cheeses available to you where you shop. It can be a blend of low-moisture part-skim and whole milk mozzarella cheeses, or either individually if you prefer one over the other. I have always felt that the weak link in Papa John's pizza is the cheeses. Since Papa John's stores are unlikely to sell you any of their cheeses to make you happy, your best bet is to find the best cheeses you can use at home. I have not been disappointed with that approach.

Peter

[Sonic98]

The PJ Dough. It is well known, and reported by PJ’s itself in various company documents--including official documents filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission--that the dough balls used by PJ stores are made at company-owned commissaries (there are currently 11 such commissaries in the U.S., known as Quality Control Centers) and delivered fresh to the stores by truck twice a week. Having worked fairly extensively with long-lived doughs , I believe that the only way that this can be done and fit the twice-a-week delivery schedule is to prepare the dough balls under tightly controlled environmental conditions (for consistency at the store level), using small amounts of yeast (to slow down the fermentation), and taking steps to insure low finished dough temperatures, especially in the storage of the dough balls and during transit of the dough balls in trucks to stores.


If the hydration levels were much higher than noted above, I think PJ’s would experience many problems with extensibility in the preparation of their skins. That is something they can ill afford with a work staff that is prone to high turnover, not to mention the amount of training and experience that their pizza makers would need to develop the skills to successfully handle high-hydration doughs. As it is, I was told by a PJ pizza maker that it takes about three weeks of fairly steady work to be able to master the process of preparing skins.


A dominant feature of the PJ dough, alluded to above, is the amount of sugar and oil used in the dough. From my analysis, there are large quantities of both, and it is that combination that contributes to the characteristic soft and tender quality of a typical PJ crust and crumb. While I agree with Tom Lehmann’s numbers on hydration, I believe he is low in both sugar and oil. I believe his numbers will work (with the amount of yeast he recommends) but not for a dough that will have a useful life of six or more days. Two days--maybe three--would be my best guess. In my clone experiments, when I tested a combination of high amount of yeast and a lot of sugar, I found that the dough fermented too fast and became a bit too extensible (though entirely manageable). To extend the dough fermentation window without reducing the amount of sugar I felt was needed in the dough, I found it necessary to use small amounts of yeast, along with relatively low dough storage temperatures. As noted below in Reply 2, my starting numbers were 0.14% IDY, 7.3% oil (soybean) and 4.8% sugar. For salt, I used the standard Lehmann value of 1.75%.

In order to produce a credible PJ clone dough formulation for the benchmark 14” pizza, it was necessary to determine how much dough to use. From nutrition information available from PJ’s at its website at, as well as the amounts of sauce and cheese reportedly used by PJ’s , weights of actual 14” pepperoni pizzas purchased from PJ’s, and from weights of the sauces, cheeses and toppings for my own PJ pepperoni pizza clones, I concluded that a typical PJ 14” pizza uses around 21 ounces of dough, and possibly a little bit more. To test my numbers, when I sauced, cheesed, topped (with pepperoni slices), and baked my last pepperoni clone pizza (the one shown in Reply 2), it weighed 35.34 ounces (after baking). PJ’s own nutrition information suggests that a fully baked pepperoni pizza weighs 1024 grams (8 slices x 128 g./slice), or a bit over 36 ounces. In my case, I took the weight of my fully baked pizza while it was hot rather than at room temperature, which, according to November, would have provided a more accurate comparison with the published PJ weight data that is based on room-temperature pizzas. So, the numbers I used for the PJ clone dough formulation may need adjustment once I do a more technically correct comparison. Nonetheless, based on the results I achieved, I believe that my numbers are reasonably good.

As an interesting side note, one of the things I learned about the PJ dough balls that surprised me is how they are delivered to PJ’s stores. I assumed that the dough balls were delivered to the PJ stores by PJ’s itself in company-owned trucks. As it turns out, the dough balls, as well as the pizza sauce, cheese, meat toppings and smallware, are all delivered from the PJ Quality Control Centers to the PJ stores by UPS. It is not the UPS that we are familiar with as individuals but rather a logistics subsidiary of UPS that specializes in solving complex logistical problems of its clients. In PJ’s case, the trucks bear the Papa John’s insignia and the drivers wear Papa John’s uniforms but all of the delivery aspects, including how to properly maintain dough temperatures during delivery runs, are handled by UPS’s logistics unit
Peter

What was in the 2nd video? I tried to watch everything on PJ I could find after seeing first one. Ws it just more tossing?

[Pete-zza]

What was in the 2nd video? I tried to watch everything on PJ I could find after seeing first one. Ws it just more tossing?

Apparently the second video was taken down or moved somewhere by YouTube, but it was more on making and tossing skins. I will revise the post that referenced the second video.

Peter

[c0mpl3x]

pete, i think you need to get your hands on PJ dough.  there is just a feel to it that i've never felt or been able to recreate at home.

[Sonic98]

pete, i think you need to get your hands on PJ dough.  there is just a feel to it that i've never felt or been able to recreate at home.

Maybe if he has a friend that works there he can get a ball from them. I know people who work at other pizza places and have been able to get pizza sauce, wing sauce, wings, and toppings before

[Pete-zza]

I really don't think that having a real Papa John's dough ball would tell me anything that I don't already know. PJ uses commercial dough mixers and dividers/rounders that produce a quality and robustness of dough balls that I cannot achieve using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook. The dough balls I have seen at PJ stores in person and in videos convince me that my PJ clone dough balls are not a particularly good match, even though they accomplish what I want them to accomplish. I think I might be able to make a better dough ball if I use my Cuisinart food processor, alone or in combination with my KitchenAid stand mixer, or possibly using my Zojirushi bread maker. Maybe at some point I will give those machines a chance.

Peter

[c0mpl3x]

pete, do you know that the dough sits out for several hours every day outside of the walk-in cooler?  and the dough being used that day, the stack sits out almost the entire day.

[Pete-zza]

pete, do you know that the dough sits out for several hours every day outside of the walk-in cooler?  and the dough being used that day, the stack sits out almost the entire day.

c0mpl3x,

I can't say that I am the least bit surprised. I have seen dough balls in the PJ store near me that looked like they were on their last legs and I have seen dough balls that were taken out of the cooler right before my eyes. But it is still interesting to hear your report on the way it is done at the PJs where you work. I could see dough balls being held at room temperature for several hours if they were the dough balls on the day of delivery or the next day, but beyond the second day from delivery I would think that using a shorter temper time would be better. I have heard that workers in the stores of the chains break all of the rules. I don't know if it matters whether it is a company-owned store or a licensee.

Peter

[c0mpl3x]

the owner of the store i work at owns 4 (now 3) stores, one in PA, one in missouri, and one right next to PJ HQ (practically) and has met/had dinner/etc with john schnatter himself about once a year.  supposedly he is coming to the stores in my market area this christmas and hopefully i get the chance to meet him.

long story short, my store owner/manager does not deviate from papa johns store operations.  things like 'a few slices pepperoni' and 'no outer crust' we don't do.  i got a lecture about even bringing my own toppings in! the way dough and prep is handled, is by the book.  i can guarantee that.  we pass every inspection, secret shopper, and quality ratings.   we have been ranked a 9 store (on a scale of 0-9.9 as 10 is impossible and only possible in recreating pizzas for commercials/advertisements) for several years and myself and others hold placards with the awards.

the store i work at does between 14k-20k a week.  our delivery area isn't that big, but is very low income for a good majority of the residents. and a lot of them are 'white trash' or 'welfare rats' as society would call them.  and we rarely get complaints.    ever follow PJ on facebook and see the hundreds of complaints from all the KY TN IN MO etc stores in that area?  it's ridiculous.

[james456]

...

There are a few points that one should keep in mind about the same-day clone dough that I made. The particular combination of yeast quantity, water temperature and room temperature I used are unique to this time of year. As the weather changes, and especially when cooler weather is upon us, the combination will have to be altered—as by using more yeast and warmer water (in relation to the prevailing room temperature). For those who wish to modify the process this time of year, the fermentation time can be altered to increase it (by using less yeast and/or cooler water) or decrease it (by using more yeast and/or warmer water). For example, if I want to make a 24-hour dough, I might use 1/64 teaspoon of IDY (although I haven’t actually tried it). But, whatever fermentation period is selected, I believe that using the poppy seed trick is a very valuable tool for monitoring the rise of the dough.

Peter

Peter,

the quote above is from your 12-hour-dough post. Can the relationship between room temperature, water and yeast be measured accurately? For example, using my room temperature as a base, 57 F, to what degree do I alter the yeast quantity and water temperature to maintain a 12 hour rise?

I'm sure after much of your experiences there must be some consistent patterns between the rise of the dough and its factors (room temp, water temp and yeast quantity) that can be put into some sort of pseudo algebra. 

[Pete-zza]

the quote above is from your 12-hour-dough post. Can the relationship between room temperature, water and yeast be measured accurately? For example, using my room temperature as a base, 57 F, to what degree do I alter the yeast quantity and water temperature to maintain a 12 hour rise?

I'm sure after much of your experiences there must be some consistent patterns between the rise of the dough and its factors (room temp, water temp and yeast quantity) that can be put into some sort of pseudo algebra. 

james456,

The question you pose is one that comes up from time to time on the forum, and is a natural one to ask since people would like to have some flexibility in making their doughs at different temperatures. Unfortunately, there are no charts that I am aware of that do that sort of thing. However, member November provided a mathematical approach that might help you if you are good at math and adept at using a scientific calculator. His solution is embedded in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572. Your example would be simpler than the one used in Reply 6 because you would be using only a single Predicted Rate period (12 hours at 13.89 degrees C). The Reference Rate you would use is the one that applies to the 12-hour dough that I described at Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59762.html#msg59762. That would be 12 hours at 26.67 degrees C (80 degrees F). I haven't worked this example out to completion, but I think you get the idea and should be able to complete the exercise.

The only other solution I have seen, which is more general than the one given in Reply 26, and no doubt is not as accurate, is the one given under "Quantity to use" at http://www.dclyeast.co.uk/www.dclyeast.co.uk/DCL_Main/main_tech/tech_dried.html. You might do both calculations to see how they compare, and post your results. In the latter case, you would have to do an additional conversion from active dry yeast (ADY) to instant dry yeast (IDY) since I used IDY for the 12-hour dough you mentioned. That might yield some slight differences in the calculations since ADY and IDY don't necessarily perform identically even when used in the proper quantities.

Peter

[TMTM]

I tried out the recipe.. I didn't have a screen.. so I just one of those pizza pans with the little holes on the bottom... the bottom of he pizza browned up and some black spoting on the bottom faster then the top of the pizza and came out crispy and not soft and flexible as PJ's.. reminded me of a NY pizza kinda.. tasted good... is it the type of pan I used that did this?

[Pete-zza]

I tried out the recipe.. I didn't have a screen.. so I just one of those pizza pans with the little holes on the bottom... the bottom of he pizza browned up and some black spotting on the bottom faster then the top of the pizza and came out crispy and not soft and flexible as PJ's.. reminded me of a NY pizza kinda.. tasted good... is it the type of pan I used that did this?

TMTM,

There could have been other factors involved, such as type of oven, oven bake temperature and time, and oven rack position, but I suspect that your perforated pan, especially if it is a dark (seasoned or anodized or coated) pan, was perhaps the cause of the results you got. All of my PJ clone doughs were devised to be used with pizza screens, which is what Papa John's uses. One of the critical ingredients of the PJ doughs is the amount of sugar, typically over 4%. That amount of sugar does not lend itself well to using pans or pizza stones instead of screens. You can materially lower the sugar content and possibly get better results with your perforated pan, but then you will have changed the dough formulation. Your pizza might then not be like a Papa John's pizza.

Can you tell me which specific PJ clone dough formulation you used? It may not matter but your answer may trigger some other possibilities.

Peter

[c0mpl3x]

TMTM,

There could have been other factors involved, such as type of oven, oven bake temperature and time, and oven rack position, but I suspect that your perforated pan, especially if it is a dark (seasoned or anodized or coated) pan, was perhaps the cause of the results you got. All of my PJ clone doughs were devised to be used with pizza screens, which is what Papa John's uses. One of the critical ingredients of the PJ doughs is the amount of sugar, typically over 4%. That amount of sugar does not lend itself well to using pans or pizza stones instead of screens. You can materially lower the sugar content and possibly get better results with your perforated pan, but then you will have changed the dough formulation. Your pizza might then not be like a Papa John's pizza.

Can you tell me which specific PJ clone dough formulation you used? It may not matter but your answer may trigger some other possibilities.

Peter

pete:

the food industry is stating that replacement screens are to be the perforated disc style, not the expanded aluminum style that most shops currently use.  i don't know if this is a papa johns corporate thing, or industry-wide, but we can no longer purchase expanded aluminum screens.

secondly, you can clean/sanitize the perforated disc screens.   this is a major health department/fda/NSF/serv-safe trick-pony selling point.