Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 288947 times)

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Offline Ardent1

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #225 on: November 12, 2010, 04:16:33 AM »
I just wanted to thank all of the people posting pictures, and Pete for working on this. I had been looking for recipes for Papa John's dough, the cheese, and the sauce for a long time. I've also REALLLYYYY wanted to know how they made their Perfect Pan Pizza, but I'm afraid that knowledge may be lost now as they no longer make it. If you have any way of making the dough and sauce of the Perfect Pan, that would be AWESOME! Still, you've done quite enough already. :)

While I don't have a lot of the fancy tools you guys seem to have, I might try this one day. The results shown are a bit inspiring, and at the very least seem aesthetically close to how Papa John's pizza generally looks. Some of the pictures here were quite shocking.

As someone fairly new to making pizza at home, Ive noticed a lot of the cheese companies don't really seem willing to sell to us "lesser folk" though. I was extremely happy, thanking God when I found out who seems to supply Papa John's with their cheese. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I could get that unless I start a business and want to buy it by the ton. Do you have any recommendations or advice on cheese for this recipe that is accessible by normal humans, that tastes good without having a bunch of crazy chemicals that will turn me into a mutant?

Thank you, and take care!


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #226 on: November 12, 2010, 11:05:37 AM »
Ardent1,

I have a three-ring binder of what I have found on Papa John's pizzas from the time that I started the reverse engineering/cloning project discussed in this thread. I reviewed those materials this morning and found the following ingredients lists for the PJ pan pizza:

Papa John's Pan dough 6": Enriched flour (bleached wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, and folic acid), water, shortening (partially hydrogenated vegetable oil, soybean and/or cottonseed oils), yeast, extra virgin olive oil, sugar, salt, glycerin, wheat starch, L-cysteine hydrochloride, Ammonium sulfate. (6/2/05)

Pan Pizza Shells: Enriched Flour (Bleached Wheat Flour, Malted Barley, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Water, Soybean Oil, Palm Oil, Yeast, Olive Oil, Sugar, Salt, Glycerine, Wheat Starch, L-Cysteine Hydrochloride, Ammonium Sulfate. (3/6/06)

It is hard enough to reverse engineer and clone an existing product never mind a defunct one, so I will leave to you and others to try to reverse engineer and clone the former PJ pan pizzas. If you decide to tackle such a project, feel free to start a new thread on your results.

With respect to the cheeses that Papa John's uses on its pizzas, you aren't likely to get much help from Leprino Foods, the supplier of cheeses to Papa John's. They are extremely secretive about their products, including at their website, making it almost impossible as individuals not in the pizza business to determine the precise blend of cheeses they sell to Papa John's or even the Nutrition facts for their cheeses. I recently tried to refer back to an informative piece at their website on their QLC/IQF cheeses only to discover that it was taken down. However, as you will see from Reply 9 in this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58413/topicseen.html#msg58413, one of Leprino Food's specialties is a flash frozen cheese (blend) that purportedly retains the original flavors and can also endure long periods in storage. I don't see any benefit for individuals to try to replicate that blend. I would just find the best mozzarella cheeses available to you where you shop. It can be a blend of low-moisture part-skim and whole milk mozzarella cheeses, or either individually if you prefer one over the other. I have always felt that the weak link in Papa John's pizza is the cheeses. Since Papa John's stores are unlikely to sell you any of their cheeses to make you happy, your best bet is to find the best cheeses you can use at home. I have not been disappointed with that approach.

Peter


Offline Sonic98

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #227 on: November 13, 2010, 04:41:49 PM »
The PJ Dough. It is well known, and reported by PJís itself in various company documents--including official documents filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission--that the dough balls used by PJ stores are made at company-owned commissaries (there are currently 11 such commissaries in the U.S., known as Quality Control Centers) and delivered fresh to the stores by truck twice a week. Having worked fairly extensively with long-lived doughs , I believe that the only way that this can be done and fit the twice-a-week delivery schedule is to prepare the dough balls under tightly controlled environmental conditions (for consistency at the store level), using small amounts of yeast (to slow down the fermentation), and taking steps to insure low finished dough temperatures, especially in the storage of the dough balls and during transit of the dough balls in trucks to stores.


If the hydration levels were much higher than noted above, I think PJís would experience many problems with extensibility in the preparation of their skins. That is something they can ill afford with a work staff that is prone to high turnover, not to mention the amount of training and experience that their pizza makers would need to develop the skills to successfully handle high-hydration doughs. As it is, I was told by a PJ pizza maker that it takes about three weeks of fairly steady work to be able to master the process of preparing skins.


A dominant feature of the PJ dough, alluded to above, is the amount of sugar and oil used in the dough. From my analysis, there are large quantities of both, and it is that combination that contributes to the characteristic soft and tender quality of a typical PJ crust and crumb. While I agree with Tom Lehmannís numbers on hydration, I believe he is low in both sugar and oil. I believe his numbers will work (with the amount of yeast he recommends) but not for a dough that will have a useful life of six or more days. Two days--maybe three--would be my best guess. In my clone experiments, when I tested a combination of high amount of yeast and a lot of sugar, I found that the dough fermented too fast and became a bit too extensible (though entirely manageable). To extend the dough fermentation window without reducing the amount of sugar I felt was needed in the dough, I found it necessary to use small amounts of yeast, along with relatively low dough storage temperatures. As noted below in Reply 2, my starting numbers were 0.14% IDY, 7.3% oil (soybean) and 4.8% sugar. For salt, I used the standard Lehmann value of 1.75%.

In order to produce a credible PJ clone dough formulation for the benchmark 14Ē pizza, it was necessary to determine how much dough to use. From nutrition information available from PJís at its website at, as well as the amounts of sauce and cheese reportedly used by PJís , weights of actual 14Ē pepperoni pizzas purchased from PJís, and from weights of the sauces, cheeses and toppings for my own PJ pepperoni pizza clones, I concluded that a typical PJ 14Ē pizza uses around 21 ounces of dough, and possibly a little bit more. To test my numbers, when I sauced, cheesed, topped (with pepperoni slices), and baked my last pepperoni clone pizza (the one shown in Reply 2), it weighed 35.34 ounces (after baking). PJís own nutrition information suggests that a fully baked pepperoni pizza weighs 1024 grams (8 slices x 128 g./slice), or a bit over 36 ounces. In my case, I took the weight of my fully baked pizza while it was hot rather than at room temperature, which, according to November, would have provided a more accurate comparison with the published PJ weight data that is based on room-temperature pizzas. So, the numbers I used for the PJ clone dough formulation may need adjustment once I do a more technically correct comparison. Nonetheless, based on the results I achieved, I believe that my numbers are reasonably good.

As an interesting side note, one of the things I learned about the PJ dough balls that surprised me is how they are delivered to PJís stores. I assumed that the dough balls were delivered to the PJ stores by PJís itself in company-owned trucks. As it turns out, the dough balls, as well as the pizza sauce, cheese, meat toppings and smallware, are all delivered from the PJ Quality Control Centers to the PJ stores by UPS. It is not the UPS that we are familiar with as individuals but rather a logistics subsidiary of UPS that specializes in solving complex logistical problems of its clients. In PJís case, the trucks bear the Papa Johnís insignia and the drivers wear Papa Johnís uniforms but all of the delivery aspects, including how to properly maintain dough temperatures during delivery runs, are handled by UPSís logistics unit
Peter



What was in the 2nd video? I tried to watch everything on PJ I could find after seeing first one. Ws it just more tossing?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #228 on: November 13, 2010, 06:05:42 PM »

What was in the 2nd video? I tried to watch everything on PJ I could find after seeing first one. Ws it just more tossing?

Apparently the second video was taken down or moved somewhere by YouTube, but it was more on making and tossing skins. I will revise the post that referenced the second video.

Peter

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #229 on: November 13, 2010, 10:13:39 PM »
pete, i think you need to get your hands on PJ dough.  there is just a feel to it that i've never felt or been able to recreate at home.
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Offline Sonic98

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #230 on: November 14, 2010, 03:21:50 PM »
pete, i think you need to get your hands on PJ dough.  there is just a feel to it that i've never felt or been able to recreate at home.

Maybe if he has a friend that works there he can get a ball from them. I know people who work at other pizza places and have been able to get pizza sauce, wing sauce, wings, and toppings before

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #231 on: November 14, 2010, 08:16:02 PM »
I really don't think that having a real Papa John's dough ball would tell me anything that I don't already know. PJ uses commercial dough mixers and dividers/rounders that produce a quality and robustness of dough balls that I cannot achieve using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook. The dough balls I have seen at PJ stores in person and in videos convince me that my PJ clone dough balls are not a particularly good match, even though they accomplish what I want them to accomplish. I think I might be able to make a better dough ball if I use my Cuisinart food processor, alone or in combination with my KitchenAid stand mixer, or possibly using my Zojirushi bread maker. Maybe at some point I will give those machines a chance.

Peter

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #232 on: December 03, 2010, 02:21:24 PM »
pete, do you know that the dough sits out for several hours every day outside of the walk-in cooler?  and the dough being used that day, the stack sits out almost the entire day.
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #233 on: December 03, 2010, 03:06:32 PM »
pete, do you know that the dough sits out for several hours every day outside of the walk-in cooler?  and the dough being used that day, the stack sits out almost the entire day.

c0mpl3x,

I can't say that I am the least bit surprised. I have seen dough balls in the PJ store near me that looked like they were on their last legs and I have seen dough balls that were taken out of the cooler right before my eyes. But it is still interesting to hear your report on the way it is done at the PJs where you work. I could see dough balls being held at room temperature for several hours if they were the dough balls on the day of delivery or the next day, but beyond the second day from delivery I would think that using a shorter temper time would be better. I have heard that workers in the stores of the chains break all of the rules. I don't know if it matters whether it is a company-owned store or a licensee.

Peter


Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #234 on: December 03, 2010, 03:54:42 PM »
the owner of the store i work at owns 4 (now 3) stores, one in PA, one in missouri, and one right next to PJ HQ (practically) and has met/had dinner/etc with john schnatter himself about once a year.  supposedly he is coming to the stores in my market area this christmas and hopefully i get the chance to meet him.

long story short, my store owner/manager does not deviate from papa johns store operations.  things like 'a few slices pepperoni' and 'no outer crust' we don't do.  i got a lecture about even bringing my own toppings in! the way dough and prep is handled, is by the book.  i can guarantee that.  we pass every inspection, secret shopper, and quality ratings.   we have been ranked a 9 store (on a scale of 0-9.9 as 10 is impossible and only possible in recreating pizzas for commercials/advertisements) for several years and myself and others hold placards with the awards.

the store i work at does between 14k-20k a week.  our delivery area isn't that big, but is very low income for a good majority of the residents. and a lot of them are 'white trash' or 'welfare rats' as society would call them.  and we rarely get complaints.    ever follow PJ on facebook and see the hundreds of complaints from all the KY TN IN MO etc stores in that area?  it's ridiculous.
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Offline james456

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #235 on: December 10, 2010, 02:18:13 AM »

...

There are a few points that one should keep in mind about the same-day clone dough that I made. The particular combination of yeast quantity, water temperature and room temperature I used are unique to this time of year. As the weather changes, and especially when cooler weather is upon us, the combination will have to be alteredóas by using more yeast and warmer water (in relation to the prevailing room temperature). For those who wish to modify the process this time of year, the fermentation time can be altered to increase it (by using less yeast and/or cooler water) or decrease it (by using more yeast and/or warmer water). For example, if I want to make a 24-hour dough, I might use 1/64 teaspoon of IDY (although I havenít actually tried it). But, whatever fermentation period is selected, I believe that using the poppy seed trick is a very valuable tool for monitoring the rise of the dough.

Peter


Peter,

the quote above is from your 12-hour-dough post. Can the relationship between room temperature, water and yeast be measured accurately? For example, using my room temperature as a base, 57 F, to what degree do I alter the yeast quantity and water temperature to maintain a 12 hour rise?

I'm sure after much of your experiences there must be some consistent patterns between the rise of the dough and its factors (room temp, water temp and yeast quantity) that can be put into some sort of pseudo algebra. 





« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 02:19:46 AM by james456 »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #236 on: December 10, 2010, 11:41:26 AM »
the quote above is from your 12-hour-dough post. Can the relationship between room temperature, water and yeast be measured accurately? For example, using my room temperature as a base, 57 F, to what degree do I alter the yeast quantity and water temperature to maintain a 12 hour rise?

I'm sure after much of your experiences there must be some consistent patterns between the rise of the dough and its factors (room temp, water temp and yeast quantity) that can be put into some sort of pseudo algebra. 

james456,

The question you pose is one that comes up from time to time on the forum, and is a natural one to ask since people would like to have some flexibility in making their doughs at different temperatures. Unfortunately, there are no charts that I am aware of that do that sort of thing. However, member November provided a mathematical approach that might help you if you are good at math and adept at using a scientific calculator. His solution is embedded in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572. Your example would be simpler than the one used in Reply 6 because you would be using only a single Predicted Rate period (12 hours at 13.89 degrees C). The Reference Rate you would use is the one that applies to the 12-hour dough that I described at Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59762.html#msg59762. That would be 12 hours at 26.67 degrees C (80 degrees F). I haven't worked this example out to completion, but I think you get the idea and should be able to complete the exercise.

The only other solution I have seen, which is more general than the one given in Reply 26, and no doubt is not as accurate, is the one given under "Quantity to use" at http://www.dclyeast.co.uk/www.dclyeast.co.uk/DCL_Main/main_tech/tech_dried.html. You might do both calculations to see how they compare, and post your results. In the latter case, you would have to do an additional conversion from active dry yeast (ADY) to instant dry yeast (IDY) since I used IDY for the 12-hour dough you mentioned. That might yield some slight differences in the calculations since ADY and IDY don't necessarily perform identically even when used in the proper quantities.

Peter

Offline TMTM

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #237 on: January 12, 2011, 04:31:07 PM »
I tried out the recipe.. I didn't have a screen.. so I just one of those pizza pans with the little holes on the bottom... the bottom of he pizza browned up and some black spoting on the bottom faster then the top of the pizza and came out crispy and not soft and flexible as PJ's.. reminded me of a NY pizza kinda.. tasted good... is it the type of pan I used that did this?

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #238 on: January 12, 2011, 06:35:31 PM »
I tried out the recipe.. I didn't have a screen.. so I just one of those pizza pans with the little holes on the bottom... the bottom of he pizza browned up and some black spotting on the bottom faster then the top of the pizza and came out crispy and not soft and flexible as PJ's.. reminded me of a NY pizza kinda.. tasted good... is it the type of pan I used that did this?

TMTM,

There could have been other factors involved, such as type of oven, oven bake temperature and time, and oven rack position, but I suspect that your perforated pan, especially if it is a dark (seasoned or anodized or coated) pan, was perhaps the cause of the results you got. All of my PJ clone doughs were devised to be used with pizza screens, which is what Papa John's uses. One of the critical ingredients of the PJ doughs is the amount of sugar, typically over 4%. That amount of sugar does not lend itself well to using pans or pizza stones instead of screens. You can materially lower the sugar content and possibly get better results with your perforated pan, but then you will have changed the dough formulation. Your pizza might then not be like a Papa John's pizza.

Can you tell me which specific PJ clone dough formulation you used? It may not matter but your answer may trigger some other possibilities.

Peter

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #239 on: January 12, 2011, 09:22:04 PM »
TMTM,

There could have been other factors involved, such as type of oven, oven bake temperature and time, and oven rack position, but I suspect that your perforated pan, especially if it is a dark (seasoned or anodized or coated) pan, was perhaps the cause of the results you got. All of my PJ clone doughs were devised to be used with pizza screens, which is what Papa John's uses. One of the critical ingredients of the PJ doughs is the amount of sugar, typically over 4%. That amount of sugar does not lend itself well to using pans or pizza stones instead of screens. You can materially lower the sugar content and possibly get better results with your perforated pan, but then you will have changed the dough formulation. Your pizza might then not be like a Papa John's pizza.

Can you tell me which specific PJ clone dough formulation you used? It may not matter but your answer may trigger some other possibilities.

Peter

pete:

the food industry is stating that replacement screens are to be the perforated disc style, not the expanded aluminum style that most shops currently use.  i don't know if this is a papa johns corporate thing, or industry-wide, but we can no longer purchase expanded aluminum screens.

secondly, you can clean/sanitize the perforated disc screens.   this is a major health department/fda/NSF/serv-safe trick-pony selling point.
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #240 on: January 12, 2011, 09:58:10 PM »
the food industry is stating that replacement screens are to be the perforated disc style, not the expanded aluminum style that most shops currently use.  i don't know if this is a papa johns corporate thing, or industry-wide, but we can no longer purchase expanded aluminum screens.

secondly, you can clean/sanitize the perforated disc screens.   this is a major health department/fda/NSF/serv-safe trick-pony selling point.

c0mpl3x,

Thank you very much for the update. It helps to have someone on the inside who knows about these sorts of matters. The last time I was at the PJs near me they were still using the screens. However, I have been reading for years that health departments have been increasingly making a push for disks. The folks at pizzatools.com have also been emphasizing that health departments approve of disks, as you will note at http://www.pizzatools.com/Original_Quik-Disk_40/31089/subgrouping.htm. In fact, my recollection is that PizzaTools once said that screens were outlawed by the City of Dallas.

It seems to me that the best disk would be one with a lot of good-sized holes (3/8" seems to be typical), to simulate a pizza screen. That is what Costco uses in at least some of their food courts although the ones I saw were raw aluminum disks that get seasoned over time, as can be seen at http://www.flickr.com/photos/hectoracuna/3046628755/. The same photo shows a conveyor in which the pizzas are baked.

Peter

Offline TMTM

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #241 on: January 13, 2011, 12:05:53 AM »
the recipe i did wass the first one.. the dough that needs to set in the fridge for about 5 days... sounds like the pan.. screen should be delivered soon


Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #242 on: January 13, 2011, 02:36:26 AM »
this is the type.  closely bunched holes.   
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #243 on: January 13, 2011, 02:09:12 PM »
One can get a case of astigmatism or go cross-eyed trying to count the number of holes in the disk shown by c0mpl3x, but I get 370 holes. As far as a possible source of such a disk is concerned, American Metalcraft sells what it calls a Superperf Disk-Hardcoat, with 370 holes for a 14" disk. Details can be see at page 3 of the listing at http://www.amnow.com/Pizza-Trays/Perforated-Disks/Superperf-Disks. One can easily beat the AM price by doing a Google search, which should turn up many low-cost sources of the disk. See, for example, http://www.etundra.com/14__Hard_Coat_Superperforated_Disk-P30844.html?utm_source=google%2Bproduct&utm_medium=organic. A more detailed view of the disk can be seen by enlarging the photo at the etundra website.

Peter

Offline ekang

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #244 on: January 14, 2011, 01:28:34 AM »
Hi Pete,

I'm new here and came across your thread.  Great work!

I had a few questions:

1. If you wanted to use the dough straight from the fridge how would the formula change?  Would it be a matter of increasing the yeast %?
2. You mention the dough after mixing to be in a certain temperature range.  How much does this affect the dough?
3. For cold fermentation, at what temperature is optimal?
4. Because of storage constraints, I would need to make batches everyday.  Do you have any suggestions for best results?  Would an overnight fermentation be enough to achieve PJ type results?

Thanks for all of your help.

-ekang

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #245 on: January 14, 2011, 03:41:42 PM »
ekang,

Before I respond, can you tell me whether you are operating in a commercial environment or a home environment?

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #246 on: January 19, 2011, 09:11:13 PM »
Hi Pete,

You don't mention your VWG count in the total.  I know you listed 2.85 T earlier of HM VWG, but I'm interested if you changed the flour levels at all, or?

Also curious on the low yeast content and the no proofing period.  Is it ok to add hot water (115F), sugar, then the yeast in a Bread Maker and leave it on the dough cycle, then transfer to the fridge?

Excited to try this, but don't want to mess it up.  Also, can I substitute Brown Sugar for the White?  Should I add more yeast if I want to be able to use the dough within 24hrs?

Thanks!

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #247 on: January 20, 2011, 10:19:25 AM »
Hi Pete,

You don't mention your VWG count in the total.  I know you listed 2.85 T earlier of HM VWG, but I'm interested if you changed the flour levels at all, or?

Also curious on the low yeast content and the no proofing period.  Is it ok to add hot water (115F), sugar, then the yeast in a Bread Maker and leave it on the dough cycle, then transfer to the fridge?

Excited to try this, but don't want to mess it up.  Also, can I substitute Brown Sugar for the White?  Should I add more yeast if I want to be able to use the dough within 24hrs?

Thanks!


i would lessen the water temp to slightly above room temp.  85-90, and stop the dough cycle once the dough is very incorporated into itself and no longer clings/looks 'wet and sticky'.     don't over-work the dough in the bread machine unless you want to bake a loaf of bread.
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Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #248 on: January 20, 2011, 10:25:57 AM »
pete, have you ever attempted the papa johns thincrust?   secondly, have you ever tried it?

i will be making a PJ emergency same-day dough here very shortly.  i have to leave for work at 2:15, but all i make as of late is same-day, 2-6 hour doughs.  gotten quite good at it
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #249 on: January 20, 2011, 12:40:44 PM »
pete, have you ever attempted the papa johns thincrust?   secondly, have you ever tried it?

i will be making a PJ emergency same-day dough here very shortly.  i have to leave for work at 2:15, but all i make as of late is same-day, 2-6 hour doughs.  gotten quite good at it

kitchen was very warm today, the cat decided she wasn't going to block all the register heat for once!  my adjusted yeast for the temp, made the dough rose about an hour above schedule.   so here's the results.

my camera was stuck in macro mode and i didn't realize it so the aerial pictures are blurry, but for a cellphone, the macro is FANTASTIC.  better than some of the full-blown cameras i see out there
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