Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 212099 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #260 on: February 19, 2011, 11:58:12 AM »
Thanks so much, Pete!

I really appreciate all of the expertise you are sharing on this site. . . it's truly an amazing amount of knowledge!

I didn't do the poppy seed trick, so you are right that I may have missed some expansion.  It definitely has grown some, just nothing like the basic NY dough recipe that I have used the previous couple times. 
Thanks for your advice!

Another issue I am having with my dough in general is that I can't seem to get it to form a really nice, homogenous sphere when I'm done kneading it.  The ball always has some "knots" or just other irregularities in texture that have in some cases caused issues when I go to actually prepare the skin.

Any suggestions there?  I don't have a stand mixer, so most of the time I'm using the Knead cycle on my Zojirushi Home Bakery Supreme bread machine.

Thanks again - you guys rock!!
Biz


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21694
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #261 on: February 19, 2011, 06:42:35 PM »
Biz,

In general, I have not had any problems in getting smooth and cohesive PJ clone dough balls. The particular PJ clone recipe you used, which is set forth at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, produces a dough with an "effective" hydration of 63.8%, which I calculated by adding the formula hydration (56.5%) and the formula oil (7.3%) together. That value is close to the rated absorption value of a high-protein flour. As a result, using a basic KitchenAid stand mixer or using hand kneading produces a somewhat underkneaded dough that is easy to form and shape into nice, round cohesive balls. I, too, have a Zojirushi bread maker but have not used it to make a PJ clone dough. However, I know from having used that machine to make other types of doughs that it is important not to overknead the doughs. That can result in drier doughs that are somewhat harder to form into nice tight balls without knots and other irregularities. I have also learned from working with different types of doughs that the doughs with the highest hydration values tend to be the easiest to shape and form into tight, smooth dough balls.

There are many videos and articles on how to shape and form dough balls. A couple you might want to look at are the Bruno's video at
Bruno's NY Style Pizza Dough
and the Lehmann/Zeak video at
How to Make Pizza Dough pt.2
I calculate that the "effective" hydration of the Bruno's dough, which is said to be a NY style dough, is around 54.2%. That is on the low side, and if you look at the dough ball shaping steps starting at around 5:45, you will see how it is a challenge to form the dough balls so that they are tight without seams, knots and the like. By contrast, if you look at the comparable steps in the Lehmann/Zeak video, starting at around 3:02, you will see that the dough balls are formed more easily. I suspect the reason is that the Lehmann/Zeak dough balls have a higher effective hydration. Another video, by Tony Gemignani, that shows similar dough forming methods, can be seen at
Balling pizza dough


You can also see one method of how Neapolitan-style dough balls can be formed at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm. If you click on the photos, you can see them in enlarged form. The dough balls shown in the article have a hydration of 55.6%. That is fairly close to the rated absorption value of 00 flour and should allow one to make good, tight dough balls.

Ultimately, it is likely to be practice that allows you to make nice, cohesive, tight dough balls. In your case, with your Zo machine, you might want to keep the kneading down to a minimum (you want the dough to be slightly underkneaded) so that you don't overly develop the gluten and end up with a dough that is dry and harder to form into dough balls.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #262 on: February 21, 2011, 10:32:24 AM »
Thanks again for the advice!  I will definitely have to check out those dough ball making resources!

As for my mutant PJ Clone dough ball I mentioned - it actually turned out surprisingly well!  I set it out at room temp about 10 hours ahead. It still didn't seem to expand much, so I actually put it in a slightly warm oven for a hour at the end, which did produce some expansion.

But regardless - the dough was easy to work with (though perhaps a little too soft) and most importantly - tasted fabulous! 
It didn't rise much during baking, which was ok but a little curious.   I can't wait to try it again. 

Any final thoughts on what went wrong  (in terms of the lack of expansion)?  I'm thinking I may want to get the dough a little warmer to activate the yeast, or even leave it at room temp for like an hour before putting it in the fridge for good.

Thoughts?  Thanks again!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21694
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #263 on: February 21, 2011, 02:34:50 PM »
Biz,

It would help if you posted some photos of the dough/skin/pizza. They might help provide a more complete answer to your questions.

The dough formulation you used can be tricky because of the timing issue, that is, making a dough that can last of up to eight or nine days. To do that successfully in a commercial environment means having to use small amounts of yeast, cool water and other techniques. You also have to achieve the proper finished dough temperature. To speed things up, you would have to take measures such as using more yeast, warmer water, a period of room temperature fermentation before refrigerating, using a longer temper time before using, or some combination of these measures. In your case, since you used your Zo to knead the dough, if that knead time was too long or too intensive, it is possible that you ended up with a stiffer and denser dough. That can also extend the window of usability of the dough. Can you describe the knead protocol you used with your Zo, in terms of knead duration, whether heat was applied during kneading, whether you used cold water, the finished dough temperature, etc.?

As for the softness of the crumb, that is a characteristic of the Papa John's finished crust. It is the combination of high oil and sugar quantities, along with using a pizza screen, that produces that texture. It goes with the territory.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #264 on: February 21, 2011, 02:52:15 PM »
Yeah, I told my wife "I need to take pictures to show Pete!" but I didn't actually get around to doing it :(

I don't really need the long window of usability.  ..I just assumed that was important to achieving the proper flavor and texture of the finished product.  If not, hey, I'll use one of your shorter window formulations!  i'm just looking for the best flavor, really.

The way I mixed the dough was basically thus:
I used room temp water (probably about 60-65deg) and mixed initially by hand in the bowl.  Then I added the yeast and put into the Zo (BB-CEC20 model) on the "home made" course (manual) on the "Knead" cycle for about 6 minutes if memory serves correctly.  Then I oiled the ball and put it into a metal mixing bowl, covered with plastic wrap and put a tiny hole in the wrap.  Then into the fridge it went!
I'm not aware of any other way to use the Zo for kneading/mixing except perhaps the "mixing" part of the Cake cycle.
And if anything, it seemed like it wasn't kneaded enough, based on the aforementioned lack of homogenicity (noun form of homogenous?  ???) etc.  But then again, I'm a total beginner so I don't know much!

To start a separate conversation, I am using a pizza stone at 500 degrees with a 1-hour preheat.  I don't have a screen but thinking I may want to get one. ....  
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 02:55:56 PM by Biz Markie »

Offline c0mpl3x

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1062
  • Age: 27
  • Location: north of pittsburgh PA
  • crumb bubbles!
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #265 on: February 21, 2011, 09:27:36 PM »
if you need a screen i can send you one.
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #266 on: February 21, 2011, 11:07:11 PM »
Gee, thanks!  Appreciate the generosity, but I wouldn't want you to go to the trouble. .

However, if there's anything I need to look out for when purchasing one, or if you have any recommendations, let me know!

I saw some at Target the other day that looked decent. .. boy, I'm a total Noob!   LOL

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21694
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #267 on: February 22, 2011, 09:56:48 AM »
Thanks to member c0mpl3x, who works for Papa John's, here are a couple of good videos on forming skins that might be useful to those who attempt Papa John's clones as discussed in this thread:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbkfDqA8yKg" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbkfDqA8yKg</a>
and
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcTKeslAmk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcTKeslAmk</a>


The second video shows the method of forming skins that I have seen in the PJ store near me, in good part because of the use of the dough docker. But the methods shown by the gal in the first video also have merit in the context of a PJ dough, even though she does not use a dough docker. In fact, for my PJ clone doughs, most often I found that the dough was soft enough and extensible enough and warm enough as not to require using a dough docker. Often I used the dough docker anyway because I wanted to see how it affected the formation of the skins.

c0mpl3x describes how he forms his skins at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13063.msg127954.html#msg127954.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #268 on: February 22, 2011, 11:19:03 AM »
Thanks!

Any final suggestions on best way to mix the PJ Clone dough with the Zo?  Or perhaps doing it all by hand may be better?


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21694
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #269 on: February 22, 2011, 12:47:15 PM »
Biz,

As between the two methods, I would rather that you try to succeed using your Zo machine. If you do succeed, then we will know that it is a viable option. Of course, the parameters of the Zo process would have to be specified in sufficient detail so that others following in your footsteps would also have a chance at succeeding.

I have the BBCC-V20 model of Zo. Apparently, it has a programmable feature that allows me to turn off the preheat cycle and to set whatever mix/knead time I would like. However, when I conducted my experiments with the Zo, I started with the regular method, with a preheat cycle, and adjusted the water temperature and the knead time (which I monitored visually) so that the finished dough temperature would be in the desired range. For a dough to be fermented in the refrigerator, the ideal finished dough temperature would be 75-80 degrees F. If you'd like, you can see how I made a couple of my Zo doughs (for a NY style pizza) at Reply 51 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5486.html#msg5486 and at Reply 260 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17113.html#msg17113. I believe the methods I used with my Zo would work with a PJ clone dough although were I to consider using my Zo today for a PJ clone dough I would perhaps try using the programmable feature to disable the preheat cycle and I would perhaps keep the total knead time down to about 6-7 minutes once the kneading commences after the ingredients have been mixed together.

Peter


Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #270 on: February 22, 2011, 01:18:37 PM »
Sounds like a plan!

I am determined to keep a detailed log, with photos, of my next attempt.  I should like to do it tonight.. .we'll see!

I can indeed turn off the preheat, which I did on my last (and only to-date) PJ attempt.  So basically it was just "kneading" for 6 minutes, after I had formed a scrappy dough in a bowl with a spatula.

I am certain my dough temp was not in the desired range on my first attempt.

Again, I'll keep you posted!

Offline bpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #271 on: March 03, 2011, 09:30:14 PM »
What's the best recipe for a 13 inch and 24hr rise?

Thanks

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21694
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #272 on: March 04, 2011, 10:33:54 AM »
What's the best recipe for a 13 inch and 24hr rise?


bpizza,

I perhaps would go with the PJ clone formulation discussed at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60197.html#msg60197. However, you will need a mini-measuring spoon to measure out the small amount of yeast for a 13" pizza and you may have to adjust the amount of yeast based on your prevailing room temperature. If you would like to proceed, let me know and I should be able to convert the dough formulation in Reply 35 for the 13" size. Or you can use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html and do the conversion for yourself. In that case, I suggest that you use a thickness factor of 0.13642 and a bowl residue compensation of about 1.5%.

Peter

Offline c0mpl3x

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1062
  • Age: 27
  • Location: north of pittsburgh PA
  • crumb bubbles!
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #273 on: March 04, 2011, 10:06:21 PM »
17-17.5 oz of dough will approximate the thickness of the PJ crust in 13"
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21694
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #274 on: March 04, 2011, 10:25:15 PM »
17-17.5 oz of dough will approximate the thickness of the PJ crust in 13"

c0mpl3x,

I get 3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5 x 0.13642 = 18.11 ounces. I think what you are saying is that one should use a smaller thickness factor for the smaller size pizzas. I have only made the 14" size in this thread and have assumed that the same thickness factor is used across all PJ pizza sizes. I know that that isn't always the case, for any number of reasons.

Peter

Offline c0mpl3x

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1062
  • Age: 27
  • Location: north of pittsburgh PA
  • crumb bubbles!
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #275 on: March 04, 2011, 10:33:08 PM »
pete did you ever run the numbers i gave you for size/weight?  they increase in TF as the size goes up, iirc
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline Biz Markie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 147
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Pass the partially-hydrogenated lard
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #276 on: March 05, 2011, 07:25:00 PM »
I wanted to finally get back to y'all on my experience with the PJ Clone dough using the Zojirushi BBCEC-20 Bread Machine.

My first attempt at the PJ Clone (BTW, I am using the formulation and fermentation as set forth at the beginning of the thread) was somewhat of a failure.  The dough did not rise at all in the fridge over the 5 days. 
My problem, I realize(d) is that the dough temperature upon completion of mixing was just not high enough.  I had not achieved the minimum 75 degrees. 
Basically after a couple more tries using the Zojirushi to mix the dough, I have determined that the machine adds very little heat to the dough.  I had actually read this before, so not surprising.  However there does seem to be some variation: in my first attempt, the dough gained about 10 degrees from the initial water temperature.  In my most recent attempt, it seemed to gain almost no heat.

In both of my subsequent attempts, I have just added the water, oil, sugar (in my case I am using Molasses, as I am actually trying to mimic my favorite crust, Mellow Mushroom.  More on that later, perhaps), and salt together from the outset.  I pour the mixture into the bread machine and then add all the flour (flour/VWG blend in my case). 
My model of Zojirushi has a "Homemade" Course, which allows you to turn off or on each individual cycle (preheat, knead, rise, bake) and input a time for each cycle.  Therefore, it is possible (and preferable) to have no preheating, just pure kneading. 
So for my experiments, I have just programmed Kneading, and set a 15 minute timer.  That way I can watch the timer count down and thus knead the dough for as long as I want.
Trying to follow the mixing instructions from the initial post in this thread, I allowed the machine to knead for 3 minutes, then popped it open and sprinkled the IDY onto the dough mass (while it was still kneading, of course).  I then allowed it to knead for additional time (only 3 minutes in my second attempt, and 6 additional minutes in my third attempt).
The consistency of the dough in both attempts was quite good.  The ball was cohesive and uniform in texture.

In my first attempt, I used a water temp of about 60 degrees.  The finished dough was only about 71 degrees.  Clearly using the Zojirushi requires a much warmer water temperature than the 55 degrees mentioned in Pete's initial recipe.  My second attempt I used about 77 degree water, but the finished dough after 9 total minutes of kneading was really about the same.  So not sure if my initial measurement was wrong, or if the water cooled a bit when I added the flour into the machine's pan, or it simply didn't gain much heat from the kneading. 

But finally on this most recent attempt, my dough finally started rising somewhere between day 3 and 4 in the fridge.  SUCCESS! 

So the lesson learned for using the Zojirushi appears to be that the initial water temp needs to be very near to the target finished dough temperature. 

As mentioned above, I admit that I am really trying to clone the Mellow Mushroom crust (very surprised no one here has tried!  Pete - you should give it a go! LOL).  It has one very unique flavor that some have attributed to Molasses.  This agrees with the fact that their dough is a golden brown color, even in the crumb. 
Anyway, despite the initial weirdness in my first 2 PJ/Mellow Shroom Clone attempts, the flavor has indeed been very close to the 'Shroom, and the results not too shabby.

Feeling as though I have solved the mystery of getting well-behaving doughs using the Zojirushi, I have now decided to try to conquer another issue: the fact that I do not have a kitchen scale.
In my most recent attempt, I used the Expanded Dough Calculator to come up with a formulation that results in nice, neat volume measurements for all ingredients (or very close to it).  I also decided that the PJ/Mellow Shroom clone doughs I've done so far have been a little on the oily side (could have something to do with the fermentation issues I've had though).  So the dough I currently have in the fridge has the following formulation:

Flour (100%):   451.71 g  |  15.93 oz | 1 lbs
Water (58%):   261.99 g  |  9.24 oz | 0.58 lbs
IDY (.165%):   0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Salt (1.85%):   8.36 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Oil (4.49%):   20.28 g | 0.72 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.51 tsp | 1.5 tbsp
Sugar (4.85%):   21.91 g | 0.77 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.5 tsp | 1.83 tbsp
total   764.99 g | 26.98 oz | 1.69 lbs | TF = 0.1385   (I used a diameter of greater than 14 inches even though that is the size I am making.  I did this as a layman's way of hopefully achieving a thicker overall crust than my prior attempts, which came out too thin in the middle).      

I will let you know how it goes.  I am now obsessed with coming up with a good formula that has all even volume measurements!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21694
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #277 on: March 05, 2011, 07:53:18 PM »
Biz Markie,

Thank you for the experiments with your Zo and the update. If you succeed in achieving a credible Mellow Mushroom clone, you perhaps will want to start a new thread devoted to your efforts to clone that particular product.

As you know, my initial efforts were to try to make a cold fermented Papa John's clone dough that could make it out to around 8 days or so. There are several ways to do this. One is to use a small amount of yeast, such as IDY, and add it late in the dough preparation process, as you did. You can also use ADY dry, as I tried and discussed in another post earlier in this thread. Although I haven't tried it with a PJ clone, you can also use a smaller amount of salt. But, whichever method is used, it is very important that you get some fermentation going. And, for this to happen, in a home setting you need to get a finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F.

Peter


Offline bpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #278 on: March 05, 2011, 11:44:18 PM »
Thanks Pete-zza and c0mpl3x.

Pete-zza, thanks for the recommendation, but can you recommend a cold rise recipe? I can use the expanded dough calculating tool and do the conversion myself.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21694
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #279 on: March 06, 2011, 11:23:13 AM »
Pete-zza, thanks for the recommendation, but can you recommend a cold rise recipe? I can use the expanded dough calculating tool and do the conversion myself.


bpizza,

The only other 24-hour PJ clone dough that I discussed is the one at Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60076.html#msg60076. That one is for a 24-hour cold fermented PJ clone dough. I had suggested the 24-hour room temperature fermented PJ clone dough at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60197.html#msg60197 because that dough is more likely to come closer to a real PJ dough. I don't know the exact relationship, but a dough that is fermented at room temperature for 24 hours is equivalent to several days of cold fermentation. And that is the reason I developed the 24-hour room temperature version. However, that shouldn't deter you from trying a 24-hour cold fermented dough even though the results won't be quite as good as a longer fermented dough. If you can spare a second day, you might try the PJ clone dough formulation (which calls for two days of cold fermentation) set forth in Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217. That version appears to be one of the most popular versions in this thread.

Whichever dough formulation you settle upon, you might want to use the Dough Weight feature of the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html and use the 17-17.5 ounces of dough that c0mpl3x suggested in Reply 273. If you prefer to use the Thickness Factor option of the expanded dough calculating tool for the 13" size pizza, the thickness factor that corresponds to 17-17.5 ounces of dough is 0.12808-0.13184.

Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter