Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 271252 times)

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Offline freddy_krugerrand

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #325 on: November 05, 2011, 10:05:37 PM »
Is there a master list of all the different papa john recipes?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 10:08:13 PM by freddy_krugerrand »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #326 on: November 06, 2011, 09:20:11 AM »
Is there a master list of all the different papa john recipes?

Freddy,

There is no such list. However, if you scan the threads on the American board at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?board=36.0, you will see where several members attempted PJ clones. In some cases, they used variations of PJ clone recipes and posted their results using those versions. The member who did the most with PJ "clones" before this thread is Randy. He posted his PJ clone recipes in several different places over time, including at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5721.0.html and at Reply 19 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1698.msg15290.html#msg15290. I converted Randy's original PJ clone recipe to baker's percent format in the opening post of the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310. From that post, you will see that Randy was quite close on the PJ thickness factor, although at the time I entered that post I did not know what thickness factor PJ was using.

If you scan the American board (there are only seven pages of threads) and/or do a forum search, you should be able to put together your own list of PJ clone recipes. If you do, please share your list with the rest of the members.

Peter

Offline Pizzalovingal

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #327 on: November 10, 2011, 04:33:25 PM »
I plan to make a clone of this recipe when I get my new  performated disk pan in -  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197

It appears people use pizza screens for this recipe for the most part so I will post my results with this pan.  :pizza:

Perhaps a dumb question, but I just got a new oven that offers convection baking - in this recipe, it states: "lowest oven rack position, at around 500 degrees" - is this using convecting baking or the "regular" oven baking?

Thanks! :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #328 on: November 10, 2011, 04:45:00 PM »
I plan to make a clone of this recipe when I get my new  performated disk pan in -  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197

It appears people use pizza screens for this recipe for the most part so I will post my results with this pan.  :pizza:

Perhaps a dumb question, but I just got a new oven that offers convection baking - in this recipe, it states: "lowest oven rack position, at around 500 degrees" - is this using convecting baking or the "regular" oven baking?

Pizzalovingal,

I use only the "regular" oven bake (my oven doesn't have the convection feature). I have never used a perforated disk for the PJ clones so you may have to make some adjustments for its use in a standard home oven. Basically, that means watching the bottom and top of the pizza to get the right color balance.

Good luck. You picked the hardest of the PJ clones to make.

Peter

Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #329 on: November 22, 2011, 02:47:48 PM »
I made Pete's 2-day dough last night, and it turned out EXCELLENT.  I also used his PJ clone sauce.  This pie is very close to what you would get from Papa Johns, and is certainly on the same level in terms of quality.  A couple of things I noticed is that the dough seemed to be a lot "lighter" than what I remember papa john's being - although I haven't had it in quite some time.  I'm not sure if this is due to the flour that I used, which was Robin Hood brad flour (available in Canada).  I also used quite a bit of this for bench flour (didn't make a dustinator clone), and thus has a coating of powdery flour on the outside of the dough.  I didn't really notice this when eating the pizza, but i could feel it on my fingers and it also left the crust looking a sad, dusty grey.   :-D

I had actually made this once before, however IIRC I didn't oil or season the pan I cooked it on and thus the crust stuck to the pan, and it was kinda ruined (we still managed to eat most of it, but it's not the same). 

At any rate, Pete has come up with an outstanding formulation here.  I will certainly be making this one more, and in my pizza rotation I think it will replace the position previously held by the Lehmann NYC-style.   :chef: :pizza:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #330 on: November 22, 2011, 03:27:34 PM »
CDNpielover,
 
I'm glad you liked the recipe.

Papa John's does not use a two-day dough. Their dough balls (refrigerated) are delivered to their stores twice a week and are intended to last from about five days to nearly eight days. As best I can tell, some years ago PJ changed flours and went to a flour that is lower in protein. That flour is milled exclusively for them. They also use conveyor ovens. These differences help explain why it is hard to exactly replicate a Papa John's pizza in a typical home environment. The 5-8 day PJ clone dough takes a long time to execute. The two-day version was a compromise solution. I would say that the two-day version is the most popular of all the PJ clone doughs in this thread.

The PJ clone pizza sauce formulation was the best I could do working only from an ingredients list and without knowing for sure which Stanislaus tomato product is at the heart of the PJ pizza sauce.

Peter

Offline Pizzalovingal

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #331 on: November 22, 2011, 04:39:16 PM »
Pizzalovingal,

I use only the "regular" oven bake (my oven doesn't have the convection feature). I have never used a perforated disk for the PJ clones so you may have to make some adjustments for its use in a standard home oven. Basically, that means watching the bottom and top of the pizza to get the right color balance.

Good luck. You picked the hardest of the PJ clones to make.

Peter

Thank you!  I just got my pans from Pizza Tools!  I am making a thin crust pizza tonight and plan to make this recipe soon.  I discovered the King Arthur flour I bought from WM is NOT the protein loaded kind (just 4%) so now I'm wondering where to get high protein flour.  I might have to try a "real" food store (not Wal-Mart).

Offline apizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #332 on: November 22, 2011, 07:00:39 PM »
Grams is not %. KAAP is 11.7% protein, which will work for a lot of baking including some pizzas. Look for %, not grams. I say use it up, since you payed for it. Hope this helps.
Marty

Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #333 on: November 22, 2011, 09:22:17 PM »
CDNpielover,
 
I'm glad you liked the recipe.

Papa John's does not use a two-day dough. Their dough balls (refrigerated) are delivered to their stores twice a week and are intended to last from about five days to nearly eight days. As best I can tell, some years ago PJ changed flours and went to a flour that is lower in protein. That flour is milled exclusively for them. They also use conveyor ovens. These differences help explain why it is hard to exactly replicate a Papa John's pizza in a typical home environment. The 5-8 day PJ clone dough takes a long time to execute. The two-day version was a compromise solution. I would say that the two-day version is the most popular of all the PJ clone doughs in this thread.

The PJ clone pizza sauce formulation was the best I could do working only from an ingredients list and without knowing for sure which Stanislaus tomato product is at the heart of the PJ pizza sauce.

Peter

Oh just to be clear I wasn't complaining or saying it was inferior to a PJ pie - you did a great job!  i think the differences were probablly due to me not being a very experiences pizza maker LOL.


Offline ggrashow

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #334 on: November 22, 2011, 09:34:33 PM »
Pete...... so now it's almost 4 months and I'm replying.  For some reason, I didn't find your response back in July.  I've been using the recipe as a favorite since I posted back in June.  Flour (100%), water (56.5%), IDY (0.14%), salt (1.75%), vegetable oil (7.3%), sugar (4.8%), total (170.49%).  Lately, I've been making a double batch each time.  I freeze half.  The frozen dough doesn't work as well as the fresh dough, but it still works pretty well.  I've got a double batch in the refrigerator now and I added 4 tbsp of wheat gluten to the mix.  I'd like to be able to toss the pizza dough and am hoping that this will help.  The dough that I've been making is easily shaped into a crust.  It's almost too loose to toss.  You mentioned adding some ascorbic acid to the mix.  How much do you add and what does it do to the dough?

Thanks again for a stupendous dough recipe.  It's been getting rave reviews since June......Gary, New Hampshire

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #335 on: November 23, 2011, 08:19:36 AM »
Oh just to be clear I wasn't complaining or saying it was inferior to a PJ pie - you did a great job!  i think the differences were probablly due to me not being a very experiences pizza maker LOL.

CDNpielover,

Please know that I did not take your comments as complaints. I was just trying to point out some of the challenges involved in taking what Papa John's does in a commercial environment and replicating it in a home environment. I am always trying to close the gap between what Papa John's does and what we can realistically do in a home environment, whether it is finding a better retail-level flour to use, using a better thickness factor and more accurate baker's percents, or better ways of baking the clone pizzas in a standard home oven. There will always be some gaps, but I think it is possible to nonetheless come up with PJ clone pizzas that home pizza makers can enjoy, hopefully more than the real thing. I actually think that we have an advantage over PJs in the cheese department. PJ uses a highly commercialized pizza cheese product (from Leprino's) that I believe is not as good as what we can use in our home versions of their pizzas.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #336 on: November 23, 2011, 09:02:25 AM »
Pete...... so now it's almost 4 months and I'm replying.  For some reason, I didn't find your response back in July.  I've been using the recipe as a favorite since I posted back in June.  Flour (100%), water (56.5%), IDY (0.14%), salt (1.75%), vegetable oil (7.3%), sugar (4.8%), total (170.49%).  Lately, I've been making a double batch each time.  I freeze half.  The frozen dough doesn't work as well as the fresh dough, but it still works pretty well.  I've got a double batch in the refrigerator now and I added 4 tbsp of wheat gluten to the mix.  I'd like to be able to toss the pizza dough and am hoping that this will help.  The dough that I've been making is easily shaped into a crust.  It's almost too loose to toss.  You mentioned adding some ascorbic acid to the mix.  How much do you add and what does it do to the dough?

Gary,

I'm glad to hear that the PJ clones have been working out well for you and that you are getting good reviews. You have been using the PJ clone recipe that is perhaps closest to the real thing but perhaps the hardest to execute successfully in a home environment. Where Papa John's has an advantage is that it is better able to control the temperature of its dough balls from its commissaries to its stores than you are able to do with a standard home refrigerator. Studies by companies that sell home refrigerators indicate that there are about 35-50 door openings a day on average for a typical two- or three-person household, with the duration of the door openings being from about 7-21 seconds. That environment is not the best for dough ball that are intended to last for up to eight days in the refrigerator, even if one places the dough balls in the back of the refrigerator away from the door. You may even experience more fermentation of the dough balls with increased extensibility. A better place to hold the dough balls would be a spare refrigerator that gets less traffic on a daily basis.

In your case, I do not believe that adding vital wheat gluten (VWG), or using more of it, is going to help with the extensibility issue. My advice would be to lower the amount of oil and, to compensate for the loss of some potential tenderness of the finished crumb, increase the amount of sugar. You might try around 5.5% oil and about 6% sugar. If you decide to make those changes, please let me know how they turn out. You will also want to use a thickness factor of around 0.12992-0.13317, along the lines as discussed earlier in this thread at Reply 311 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg156236.html#msg156236.

I am not surprised by the degraded performance of the frozen versions of the PJ clone dough balls. Freezing causes permanent damage to the yeast cells (as water freezes and expands). This damage is significant when you consider that there is only 0.14% yeast (IDY) to begin with. You would have to dramatically increase the amount of yeast in order to be able to sacrifice some of it to the harmful effects of freezing. Even then, you perhaps shouldn't freeze the dough balls for more than about ten days if you have a standard freezer compartment that has a cyclical defrost feature. If you want to make frozen versions of your PJ clone dough balls, you should use maybe triple the amount of yeast and, after a brief period of room temperature fermentation, go directly to the freezer. Of course, this means having to make a separate batch of dough balls, not just taking your regular dough balls and freezing them.

With respect to your question about ascorbic acid (Vitamin C), you can read the reasons for using ascorbic acid in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#A. In Papa John's case, I believe that the main reason for using ascorbic acid in their dough is as a dough conditioner that is intended to be a substitute for bromates that are most often used in commercial flours. None of the big pizza chains, including Papa John's, Domino's, Pizza Hut, etc., use bromated flours. That is because they do business in California, where there are very strict notice requirements for those who use bromates, which are deemed to be carcinogenic. Using nonbromated flours avoids the California problem altogether, even though is is generally regarded that ascorbic acid is not a particularly effective substitute for bromate (potassium bromate). In those cases where ascorbic acid is used in a particular flour, the usage level is around 30-50 parts per million. At the home level, one might use a pinch of ascorbic acid. I have tried doing that but did not notice a difference in the results. I would have to do a fair amount of experimenting to learn more about the benefits, if any, of using ascorbic acid in a PJ clone dough. Since my kitchen is not set up to do scientific experiments, it is unlikely that I will pursue the use of ascorbic beyond just using a pinch of it now and then and assessing its potential effects.

Peter

Offline ggrashow

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #337 on: November 27, 2011, 09:23:49 PM »
Hi Peter.............We just made a pizza from the double batch of dough I added (4) tbsp of wheat gluten too.  I was the best yet.  I don't know if it was the wheat gluten or the extra day on refrigeration (6 days this time). 

I do a few things differently in putting the pizza together.  Olive oil is brushed on the screen as well as the top side of the pizza rim.  Cheddar Cheese was sprinkled on the rim along with some of the mozzarella and I start with a little fresh Parmesan under the sauce layer.  It makes for some great flavors.

What do you think?

Gary from New Hampshire

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #338 on: November 28, 2011, 10:35:08 AM »
Gary,

There is a pizza chain in the Northeast part of the country called Papa Gino's that uses a three-cheese blend on its pizzas that comprises low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, aged cheddar cheese (I believe that it is a mild white cheddar cheese), grated Romano cheese and oregano (http://www.papaginos.com/nutrition.html?topic=ingredients). You used your cheeses differently on your PJ clone but I often thought that a Papa John's pizza might benefit from use of a multi-cheese blend inasmuch as I am not a big fan of the pizza cheese that PJ uses even though I can appreciate that it is difficult for a chain with thousands of stores to use a less commercial cheese product. I think that substituting grated Parmesan cheese for grated Romano cheese would also make for a nice cheese blend when used with the other cheeses.

If you used the PJ clone recipe at Reply 2 at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, but for a double batch, that would mean that your flour/VWG blend had a protein content of about 15.3-15.4% (according to the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/). That is considerably higher than the protein content of the flour that PJs uses for its pizzas (below 14%). However, if you liked the pizza with that amount of VWG, that is all that matters. But, it is possible that your improved results were more attributable to the extra day of cold fermentation than to the added amount of VWG. You would have to repeat the experiment without the VWG to have a better idea.

Peter

Offline BardParker

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #339 on: November 28, 2011, 10:33:04 PM »
Hybrid Clone - Fiery Hawaiian

My most recent favorite Pizza store pizza is Dominos Fiery Hawaiian.  It is not available in all stores however.  I have recently started making the Pete-zza's clone recipes.  I I have made all 3 versions: Fast, 2-Day, "original".  I usually make a 5-6 pizza batch.  I am on my 5th batch of the original 5-day clone.  Since the pizza I have made is a part clone of Dominos and part clone of Papa Johns it qualifies as a TRUE HYBRID.

This batch was made almost exactly as described in reply #2 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197.  The one exception is that I used a Pendleton Pizza blend flour - not premix - for this batch.  The dough was mixed in a Berkel 10 quart planetary mixer.  Dough balls were divided weighed, rolled,  placed on trays with loose fitting covers and placed in the garage refrigerator (not disturbed much) for 5 days.  The dough was removed 2 hrs prior to expanding and the covered trays were placed on a rack over a warm surface. Then the dough is formed in the manner of Papa John's using clone dustinator blend, pressing out and creating a rim, rotating radial stretch, docking, hand tossing and placing on pizza peel.  My pizza peel has circles drawn onto it so I can approximate a 14" pizza. 

The pizza is dressed with:
1. PJ clone pizza sauce (as described) using Wal -Mart Great Value Tomatoes 5.5 - 6  oz (I used to measure - now I approximate)
2. Wal-Mart Part Skim Mozzarella grated: - cut into tiny cubes with food processor.  85% of the cheese I add before the toppings and the remaining 15% last.
3. Chopped Ham pieces (Usually a Honey Ham from Safeway)
4. Kirkland (Costco) crumbled bacon bits - not too heavy
5. Mezzetta Roasted Bell Peppers - sliced and diced into 5mm x 10mm pieces
6. Star Sliced Jalapenos -  quartered
7. Pineapple pieces (tidbits)- I use these because they come in smaller pieces out of the can.  I press them between 2 towels to dry a bit
6. Ashanti (from Safeway) chicken wing sauce (I like this more than some hotter brands): drizzled on in a spiral pattern.
7. Remaining 15% Mozzarella - extending onto the undressed rim.

The pizza peel is covered with dustinator but the pizza usually needs to be broken loose with a few back and forth jerks before placing into the oven to prevent toppings from falling off onto the hot surface - any toppings that fall off breaking loose are replaced onto pizza.

I cook on a thin pizza stone - about 1/2" stone.  My 2" granite stone (left over from a bathroom counter job) broke and wont fit in my new oven.   I baked the pizza at 550f for 8 minutes.  I have baked on a screen but have not had results as good as the stone.

I let it cool for a few minutes, slice and place on a perforated pan.  I usually make 3 pizzas in rapid sequence and then they are consumed by myself and family.  Any remaining slices are left out on the counter and there is usually none left to put in the refrigerator by bedtime.

I love the Pete-zza original clone.  It takes a bit of discipline to make it and wait 5 days.  Saturday is my mix day - I mix a 6 pizza batch and then make pizza Thurs-Sat. The sauce is made in batches and sealed in Mason Jars ready for pizza day.

I am very happy with this HYBRID Fiery Hawaiian pizza.
Next I will have to do a side by side taste comparison.

Brent

 :pizza:

Offline BardParker

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #340 on: November 28, 2011, 10:34:59 PM »
Forgot to post the bottom view of the Fiery Hawaiian Hybrid.
 ???

Brent

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #341 on: November 29, 2011, 09:33:09 AM »
Brent,

That is a beautiful looking pizza. It's looks like a work of art, and I bet it tasted great. Thanks for posting the photos and the details of the preparation of the pizza.

You must have quite a large family to polish off three 14" pizzas in an evening. ;D

Peter


Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #342 on: November 29, 2011, 10:42:16 AM »
Brent,

Thank you for posting your Fiery Hawaiian PJ hybrid pie!  I've never seen that pie before, but it sure looks like a stellar topping combination!  I am going to make this within the next couple of weeks.


Offline PHXCobra

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #343 on: November 29, 2011, 02:58:43 PM »
Will be trying that with my more adventerous friends soon.  The gf and her 3 year old aren't too hot on the hot stuff.

Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #344 on: November 29, 2011, 07:28:32 PM »
BardParker, I see Frank's in the photo but don't see where you mention adding it.  Do you add that to the wing sauce?

Also, is they wing sauce like the typical buffalo wing sauce - i.e. can I use a mix of butter and Frank's?

Offline BardParker

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #345 on: November 29, 2011, 10:56:31 PM »
BardParker, I see Frank's in the photo but don't see where you mention adding it.  Do you add that to the wing sauce?

Also, is they wing sauce like the typical buffalo wing sauce - i.e. can I use a mix of butter and Frank's?

I have used both hot wing sauce brands in the trials.  I prefer the Ashanti brand - it is more mild and the Kids like it better too. I also think it is more like that used by Dominos (NO idea what they really use). I haven't tried mixing them but I have added them after the pizza sauce layer.  I used the Franks last time I made the recipe and it was still very good.  Need to take a trip to the store & get more.
 
Brent

Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #346 on: November 30, 2011, 10:49:33 AM »
I just did a tiny bit of googling, and while I didn't come across an official Domino's list of toppings, I did see one site which listed "hot sauce."  good thing, otherwise I would have been adding homeade wing sauce to my pizza (butter, franks and garlic).  I think i'll try using Franks when I do this, and maybe let people add it to their own liking.

Offline FeCheF

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #347 on: November 30, 2011, 12:21:40 PM »
I just did a tiny bit of googling, and while I didn't come across an official Domino's list of toppings, I did see one site which listed "hot sauce."  good thing, otherwise I would have been adding homeade wing sauce to my pizza (butter, franks and garlic).  I think i'll try using Franks when I do this, and maybe let people add it to their own liking.

When I make buffalo chicken pizza I find that you get enough flavor and grease from the cheese so there is no need to add butter to the hot sauce. Ive used franks before, but i prefer texas petes buffalo style wing sauce. Also instead of pouring or drizzling the hot sauce you can dip whatever meat topping you plan on adding in it instead. For example I use shredded chicken breast and let it soak in hot sauce while i add other ingredients. Also another ingredient i use is kens special reserve blue cheese dressing. After i add my pizza sauce I take a squeeze cap and stick it on the dressing bottle and lightly drizzle the blue cheese dressing over the pizza sauce in a spiral motion. Then i add the cheese and the rest of the toppings.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #348 on: December 06, 2011, 12:50:59 PM »
Today, at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16096.msg162383.html#msg162383, I reported on a phone call that I made to the company that makes a new line of tomato products that are sold at Wal-Mart under the name of Classico, a company that, like Escalon, is owned by Heinz. The specific product that I called about is the Classico crushed tomatoes. As noted in Reply 8, I was told that the Classico crushed tomatoes are very similar to the Escalon 6-in-1s that I have used to make a Papa John's clone pizza sauce for use with a PJ clone pizza. In fact, the Classico crushed tomatoes are produced by Escalon. I can't see any reason why the Classico crushed tomatoes can't be used in lieu of the 6-in-1s to make a credible PJ clone pizza sauce. I suspect the same is also true of the Classico ground peeled and unpeeled tomatoes that are also sold at Wal-Mart's. They are all of the fresh-pack variety, as is the case with the Stanislaus tomatoes used by Papa John's for its pizza sauce in its stores.

Peter

Offline PHXCobra

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #349 on: December 07, 2011, 08:53:41 PM »
Tried the fiery Hawaiian. Used a mix of different cheeses ( Mozzarella, Kroger Habaņero cheese, and Kroger nacho and taco), Franks Red Hot, and added pepperoni. Quite delicious although there is too much sugar in the dough and my kneading an balling needs some help
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 09:11:37 AM by PHXCobra »