Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 195621 times)

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Offline pythonic

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #460 on: June 13, 2013, 12:28:50 AM »
Bob,

Lol, I don't think the shift manager had any idea of who I am.  What pizza place would think some old lady would try to clone one of their products.   :P

Norma

A weirdo lady would.  Lol
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Offline JasonT

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #461 on: June 13, 2013, 12:41:20 AM »
JasonT,

Papa John's uses the same dough for its breadsticks as it uses to make its pizzas. However, the amount of dough to use to make the breadsticks depends on the type of breadsticks you want to make. As noted at http://order.papajohns.com/nutrition/2/subMenu.html, Papa John's makes three kinds of breadsticks--the regular Breadsticks, Parmesan Breadsticks and Cheesesticks. For the Breadsticks and Parmesan Breadsticks, PJ uses the same amount of dough, around 20 ounces, as it uses to make its large (14") pizzas. This is confirmed by the PJ Nutrition Facts. For its Cheesesticks, PJ uses the same amount of dough, around 14.5 ounces, as it uses for its medium (12") pizzas. This is also confirmed by the PJ Nutrition Facts.

You should also know that the serving sizes for the three forms of breadsticks and the way they are made are not the same. For example, the PJ Breadsticks and the Parmesan Breadsticks have 10 pieces. The Cheesesticks have 14 pieces, although some PJ stores cut the final product into 16 pieces. The way that the Breadsticks and Parmesan Breadsticks are made can be seen in these YouTube videos:

Papa John's Pizza offers more than just pizza, try a side

Papa John's breadsticks being made

For the Cheesesticks, see this YouTube video:

Bacon Cheesestick Product Showcase.m4v

Since I started this thread, there has been some new information brought to my attention on the PJ dough. I have also revisited the PJ Nutrition Facts and have done some additional analysis as a result. My suggestion at this point is to use the dough formulation at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25719.msg259461.html#msg259461 for a 14" PJ clone pizza (or for the Breadsticks and Parmesan Breadsticks), and the dough formulation given at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258178.html#msg258178 for a 12" PJ pizza (or for the Cheesesticks). The two formulations are for a 5-8 day cold fermented dough as was discussed on the first page of this thread. I do not think that the modified formulations as referenced above will produce materially different results than the original version in terms of the crust flavor or texture. Any differences in that respect will be masked by the sauce, cheese and toppings put on the pizza. The crusts will be thinner, however, using the modified formulations. There may also be some flavor and textural differences if the flours suggested in the abovereferenced links to the modified dough formulations are used instead of the KABF.

For those who prefer to use the other modifications of the original formulation set forth in this thread, the other formulations can still be used but they should use the same baker's percents for the oil and sugar (and maybe some minor changes in the hydration values) as noted in the new versions of the dough formulations mentioned above.

Peter


Thx Pete, I'll go over this and attempt it.

Jason

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #462 on: June 13, 2013, 07:13:54 AM »
A weirdo lady would.  Lol

That is me Nate.   :-D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #463 on: June 13, 2013, 07:25:18 AM »
This post is to comment a little more on what the dough ball for the cheesesticks looked like last evening when I was at Papa John's watching and other comments.  The dough ball didn't look like it had any fermentation bubbles in the dough when the shift manager was opening the dough ball, or when using his hands to open the dough before he used the docker.  I said I thought that dough looked hard to stretch.  He said it is sometimes, but he became used to that.  I only saw him dock the dough one time after pressing and moving the dough around with his hands.  I commented on the dough balls sitting in the dough trays, saying that dough looked nice and how does he know when to use that dough.  I did ask if the dough was made in that Papa John's store (although I knew it wasn't made there).  The shift manager told me that the dough is sent to them in a truck.  I said how did they know when it was ready to use after it arrives.  The shift manager told me that it needed at least 24 hrs. for it to be ready to be used and for the yeast to work.  I then asked what if they ran out of dough balls before then.  The shift manager told me then that the store could not use those dough balls and they had to call another Papa John's store to get some dough balls to use.  I also asked what kind of flour that was that he used to put the dough in.  He said it was wheat flour.  I said it doesn't look like any wheat flour I have ever seen when I make breads sometimes.  The shift manager then told me that there is soybean oil added to the wheat flour and that is why it looks like that.  I asked how the flour gets off of the dough ball, before the pizza or cheesesticks are put into the oven.  The shift manager told me that the slapping of the dough takes all of the flour off and then he showed me what the skin looked like after slapping the dough.  The shift manager was good at slapping the skin.  I could not see any of the flour then.  He also showed me how he can twirl the dough.

I watched how the shift manager applied the garlic sauce to the skin before the mozzarella was added.  He put the garlic sauce (shown in the squeeze bottle) in a spiral pattern and then put the two ends of the skin together and pressed a little to distribute the garlic sauce all around the skin.  That did a good job of distributing the garlic sauce.  Then the mozzarella was added.  I think the shift manager added two of those portioning cups of mozzarella to the skin.  I asked how he knew how much mozzarella to use and he showed me the portioning cup (which is show in the photos).  The cheesesticks were a round pizza and were baked as long as a regular pizza.  The cheesesticks were cut after the bake.

When received my order I asked how they get their garlic sauce in the store and he said in big containers.   

These are the photos of when the 3 cheesesticks were reheated in the microwave last evening.  I didn't want to reheat another way, because I like soft cheesesticks.  The garlic sauce was very good and I thought it really added to the flavor of the cheesesticks.  There is a garlic taste, but it wasn't really strong to my tastes. 

I think it can be seen in the squeeze bottle and the small tub of what I received of the garlic sauce the oil does want to separate some from the ingredients. 

Norma
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 07:30:24 AM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #464 on: June 13, 2013, 03:03:46 PM »
Peter,

I have to check at market tomorrow, but I am not sure what size pan I have to use for an attempt on the PJ cheesesticks.  I am not sure if I have a 12 or a 14 pan to try. 

When you posted at Reply 28 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258372.html#msg258372  how would I determine how much garlic sauce to brush on the dough for either size pan? 

I am going to use your guide to make the garlic sauce from what you posted at Reply 50 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg259010.html#msg259010 with the Parkay Squeeze product.  I put some of the Parkay Squeeze product in a small plastic container to see how it tastes and looks when it was cold and when it got warmer.  These two photos are of the Parkay Squeeze product when it was cold right of the fridge and after it sat out a few hours.  The color of the Parkay Squeeze does compare pretty well to the PJ garlic sauce. 

I plan on doing a 3 day cold ferment, but am not sure what flour, or flours to try.  I have KABF and Mondako flour if you think those combinations might work.  If you don't think they will work, what flour, or flours would you recommend? 

I also plan on trying the formulation you set-forth for Nate at Reply 6 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258178.html#msg258178  all depending on what size pan I have.

Is there anything you think I might have missed to ask you?  I am getting a little mixed up going back and forth between the two threads.  I would like to make the attempt on Sunday for the cheesesticks and the garlic sauce and make the mix the dough later on today is that is possible.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #465 on: June 13, 2013, 03:23:21 PM »
Norma,
That squeeze Parkay looks like it's going to work good.
Just a thought...are there any folks at your Market that sell garlic juice? I wonder how that would taste instead of/or in addition to garlic powder?

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #466 on: June 13, 2013, 03:45:25 PM »
Norma,

While Nate used a pan to make the PJ clone Cheesesticks, I believe that PJ uses a pizza screen or maybe a perforated disk (I didn't see either in the photos you posted). Also, PJ uses only the 12" dough ball, not a 14" dough ball, to make the Cheesesticks. For the 12" size, I estimated from the PJ Nutrition Facts that the amount of Garlic sauce was about 1 1/2 ounces, by weight. If you decide that you would rather go with the 14" size, the amount of garlic sauce would be about 1 1/2 x (49/36) = approx. 2 ounces, also by weight.

As for the flour, I have been suggesting that one use a flour with a protein content of about 13.4-13.6%. That is higher than the protein content of the KABF (12.7%) and Mondako (12.9%) flours. Nate used the Bouncer flour, which has a protein content of 13.8 +/- 0.3%. If you have a high-gluten flour available for use to make the PJ clone Cheesesticks, maybe you can blend that with the KABF or Mondako flour. I can help you with the calculations once you decide on the size issue. I might add that the brands of flours that I previously mentioned were selected because they are not bromated.

I don't see any other unresolved issues.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #467 on: June 13, 2013, 05:00:31 PM »
That squeeze Parkay looks like it's going to work good.
Just a thought...are there any folks at your Market that sell garlic juice? I wonder how that would taste instead of/or in addition to garlic powder?

Bob,

That is a good thought on the garlic juice. The original ingredients list that I saw simply said "garlic" and "natural garlic flavor". I thought that that was an odd pairing and distinction but, to me, that means two different forms of garlic. As best I can tell, garlic can be fresh garlic, dried garlic powder, dried minced or granulated garlic, garlic paste, or garlic juice. I would think that whatever forms of garlic are used in the PJ Garlic sauce they would have to be reasonable in price, pose no health issues (as can exist in certain cases with fresh garlic), and not include anything else beyond pure garlic. Garlic powder and garlic juice would seem to be a good combination, although it appears that some garlic juices are not pure garlic juices and can include other things like vinegar and salt. But, there appear to be some pure garlic juices, with the Garlic Valley Farms product such as shown at http://www.garlicvalleyfarms.com/product1.html appearing to be a pure and natural garlic product. I would imagine that not much garlic juice would have to be used in making a garlic sauce and, in the volumes that PJ would need, the price should not be an issue. At the consumer level, one can see the price for 8 ounces of the Garlic Valley Farms product at Amazon at http://www.amazon.com/Garlic-Valley-Farms-Pressed-Juice/dp/B000Z8P34A. Whether one can make a credible clone of the PJ Garlic sauce at a competitive price is an open question at this point. It might turn out that it is cheaper to buy the little tubs of Garlic sauce from PJ.

There may be other flavor issues with the Parkay Squeeze product. However, I don't think that consistency of the final product will be an insurmountable problem.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #468 on: June 13, 2013, 05:13:09 PM »
Yes, Norma's room temp Parkay almost looks like it is begging for a 'lil garlic juice to bring the viscosity more towards PJ's product.
I looked at Garlic Valley Farms site before making the juice recommendation.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #469 on: June 13, 2013, 06:40:23 PM »
Norma,
That squeeze Parkay looks like it's going to work good.
Just a thought...are there any folks at your Market that sell garlic juice? I wonder how that would taste instead of/or in addition to garlic powder?

Bob

Bob,

I am not aware of anyone that sells garlic juice at market, but then I don't have that much time to look around when I am working.  Your idea is good though about the garlic juice and if I see any garlic juice in my area I will think about purchasing some.  The Parkay Squeeze does have somewhat the same taste as the PJ's garlic sauce, but the garlic flavor is missing and also the little bit of separation of the oil something like the PJ's garlic sauce has.  I think Peter's idea of adding a little soybean oil will help the separation a little.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #470 on: June 13, 2013, 07:00:57 PM »
Norma,

While Nate used a pan to make the PJ clone Cheesesticks, I believe that PJ uses a pizza screen or maybe a perforated disk (I didn't see either in the photos you posted). Also, PJ uses only the 12" dough ball, not a 14" dough ball, to make the Cheesesticks. For the 12" size, I estimated from the PJ Nutrition Facts that the amount of Garlic sauce was about 1 1/2 ounces, by weight. If you decide that you would rather go with the 14" size, the amount of garlic sauce would be about 1 1/2 x (49/36) = approx. 2 ounces, also by weight.

As for the flour, I have been suggesting that one use a flour with a protein content of about 13.4-13.6%. That is higher than the protein content of the KABF (12.7%) and Mondako (12.9%) flours. Nate used the Bouncer flour, which has a protein content of 13.8 +/- 0.3%. If you have a high-gluten flour available for use to make the PJ clone Cheesesticks, maybe you can blend that with the KABF or Mondako flour. I can help you with the calculations once you decide on the size issue. I might add that the brands of flours that I previously mentioned were selected because they are not bromated.

Peter



Peter,

I think the PJ's pizzeria I went to did use dark disks to bake the cheesesticks on.  I have a dark disk and also a screen, so whatever you think might be better to try is what I will do.

I would rather go with 12 for the cheesesticks first.  That is the size I purchased last evening.  Thanks for telling me the amount of garlic sauce for the 12 cheesesticks. 

I do have some of the Power flour, that isn't bromated and also KAAP.  The other flours I have are bromated.  If you think I should mix one of the bromated flours with another flour I can also do that.   

This is the kind of granulated garlic I have at market to try.  http://www.webstaurantstore.com/regal-granulated-garlic-12-oz/10207059.html  Do you think that granulated garlic will be okay to try in the PJ's garlic sauce?

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #471 on: June 13, 2013, 07:20:56 PM »
Norma,

I assume that you will be making the PJ clone Cheesesticks at market. If that is so, you should use whichever carrier (screen or disk) you think will work better in your deck oven at market.

The Power flour is a good choice to make the PJ clone Cheesesticks because its protein content is 13.5%. It is also an unbromated flour. That flour should be a good test to compare the results using that flour with the real PJ Cheesesticks.

I think you can use the granulated garlic if you think it will dissolve sufficiently in the Parkay Squeeze product. Granulated garlic is of a coarser grind than the garlic powder and has a more potent garlic taste than the garlic powder and you can use less of it than garlic powder. Garlic powder is said to dissolve better and faster in liquids.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #472 on: June 13, 2013, 07:27:52 PM »
Does the PJ sauce have an oil/water separation to it that causes one to want to stir it up before using?
If so then maybe a small amount of water to dissolve Norma's granulated garlic might be the ticket.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #473 on: June 13, 2013, 07:38:36 PM »
Bob,

Since the PJ Garlic sauce is basically a margarine spread, it includes water. However, that spread also includes mono-and diglycerides and soy lecithin. These are emulsifiers that are commonly used to bind oils and water.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #474 on: June 13, 2013, 07:56:36 PM »
Norma,

I assume that you will be making the PJ clone Cheesesticks at market. If that is so, you should use whichever carrier (screen or disk) you think will work better in your deck oven at market.

The Power flour is a good choice to make the PJ clone Cheesesticks because its protein content is 13.5%. It is also an unbromated flour. That flour should be a good test to compare the results using that flour with the real PJ Cheesesticks.

I think you can use the granulated garlic if you think it will dissolve sufficiently in the Parkay Squeeze product. Granulated garlic is of a coarser grind than the garlic powder and has a more potent garlic taste than the garlic powder and you can use less of it than garlic powder. Garlic powder is said to dissolve better and faster in liquids.

Peter

Peter,

No, I am first going to try and make the cheesesticks at home to get some practice, before I try them at market.  That is why I posted that I wanted to try them this coming Sunday.  I guess a screen would do better in my home oven that doesn't get too hot. 

I do have garlic salt and garlic powder at home if you think either one of them would be a better choice than the granulated garlic.

Norma
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #475 on: June 13, 2013, 08:18:17 PM »
Does the PJ sauce have an oil/water separation to it that causes one to want to stir it up before using?
If so then maybe a small amount of water to dissolve Norma's granulated garlic might be the ticket.

Yes it does but not always.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #476 on: June 13, 2013, 08:21:02 PM »
Peter,

No, I am first going to try and make the cheesesticks at home to get some practice, before I try them at market.  That is why I posted that I wanted to try them this coming Sunday.  I guess a screen would do better in my home oven that doesn't get too hot. 

I do have garlic salt and garlic powder at home if you think either one of them would be a better choice than the granulated garlic.

Norma

I was worried about drippings of the garlic butter so I used a pan directly on the rack.  Do u plan to use the screen on a preheated stone or the rack?

Nate

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #477 on: June 13, 2013, 08:25:04 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the clarification. I found that a pizza screen works better in my home electric oven than a disk, so you might use a screen in your home oven also. Maybe at a later date you can try the disk since that is what the PJ worker used at the PJ store that you recently visited.

I would not use the garlic salt since that form of garlic was not recited in the ingredients list for the PJ Garlic sauce.

If you have garlic powder at home you might use that instead of the granulated garlic since it is less potent than the granulated form and you might be able to better control the rate at which it is added to the Parkay Squeeze product. You don't want to overdose the Parkay product.

If you can't find garlic juice locally, you can make your own using a garlic press or a food processor. If you do a Google search on how to make garlic juice, you will find instructions on how to do it.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #478 on: June 13, 2013, 08:34:30 PM »
I was worried about drippings of the garlic butter so I used a pan directly on the rack.  Do u plan to use the screen on a preheated stone or the rack?

Nate

Nate,

I didn't think about drippings from the garlic sauce if I use a screen.  I would think the mozzarella would soak it up, but maybe that might not be right.  I really didn't think about using the screen on my pizza stone.  Which way is best, on a rack or on the pizza stone?

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #479 on: June 13, 2013, 08:40:38 PM »
Norma,

I found that a pizza screen works better in my home electric oven than a disk, so you might use a screen in your home oven also. Maybe at a later date you can try the disk since that is what the PJ worker used at the PJ store that you recently visited.

I would not use the garlic salt since that form of garlic was not recited in the ingredients list for the PJ Garlic sauce.

If you have garlic powder at home you might use that instead of the granulated garlic since it is less potent than the granulated form and you might be able to better control the rate at which it is added to the Parkay Squeeze product. You don't want to overdose the Parkay product.

If you can't find garlic juice locally, you can make your own using a garlic press or a food processor. If you do a Google search on how to make garlic juice, you will find instructions on how to do it.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that a screen would work better in my home oven.  I can try the disk at market.

I will use the garlic powder I have at home since garlic salt was not recited in the ingredients list for the PJ Garlic Sauce.  I might do a sample run on the Garlic Sauce tomorrow to see if I can make it taste anything like the PJ Garlic Sauce.

I do have a small food processor and garlic press at home.  I will google how to make garlic juice. 

Norma
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