Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 304599 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #525 on: June 16, 2013, 09:01:13 AM »
This is a photo of the Ingredients in the Shanks's Artificial Butter Flavor.  I tasted it again this morning and I really don't think it would be a good product to try for a PJ Garlic sauce clone since there is only artificial flavor in that product.

Norma


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #526 on: June 16, 2013, 09:41:05 AM »
I wonder what kind of product can be used to make the PJ Garlic Sauce that isn't that high in trans fats.
Norma,

As was discussed at Reply 518 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260292.html#msg260292, we already know how PJ keeps the trans fats low. It uses a blend of liquid soybean oil and an amount of hydrogenated soybean oil to keep the trans fats low. Looking at the various popcorn products and oils that you cited, none would fit the PJ Nutrition Facts. They either have Total Fat levels that are too high, or contain Trans Fats, Carbohydrates and, in some cases, even Cholesterol, Dietary Fiber and Protein. If you look at the PJ Nutrition Facts for its Garlic sauce at http://order.papajohns.com/nutrition/5/subMenu.html ,what you will see is 0 Trans Fats, 0 Cholesterol, 0 Carbohydrates, 0 Dietary Fiber, 0 Sugar and 0 Protein. Anything that changes those numbers can be ruled out of contention. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be tried and used. It only means that such products would not produce clones of the PJ Garlic sauce and perhaps should be addressed in their own threads.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #527 on: June 16, 2013, 09:54:44 AM »
This is a photo of the Ingredients in the Shanks's Artificial Butter Flavor.  I tasted it again this morning and I really don't think it would be a good product to try for a PJ Garlic sauce clone since there is only artificial flavor in that product.
Norma,

The current PJ formulation for its Garlic sauce (set forth below for convenience) includes "natural & artificial" flavor. Since garlic (dehydrated) is already cited in the list of ingredients and that list also has no reference to "natural garlic flavor", and since presumably the Garlic sauce needs some flavor beyond the lactic acid, such as a "butter" type flavor, I think that it would be reasonable to assume that the "natural & artificial" flavor could include a product such as the Shank's Artificial Butter Flavor. That product might be supplemented by a natural butter flavor but the other flavor might be a natural garlic flavor. We just don't know.

Current Version (2013): Soybean oil, water, salt, contains less than 2% of garlic*, vegetable mono & diglycerides, natural & artificial flavor, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, soy lecithin, lactic acid, sodium benzoate (a preservative), calcium disodium EDTA added to protect flavor, citric acid, carotene(color), Vitamin A palmitate added. *Dehydrated

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #528 on: June 16, 2013, 10:04:04 AM »
Norma,

The current PJ formulation for its Garlic sauce (set forth below for convenience) includes "natural & artificial" flavor. Since garlic (dehydrated) is already cited in the list of ingredients and that list also has no reference to "natural garlic flavor", and since presumably the Garlic sauce needs some flavor beyond the lactic acid, such as a "butter" type flavor, I think that it would be reasonable to assume that the "natural & artificial" flavor could include a product such as the Shank's Artificial Butter Flavor. That product might be supplemented by a natural butter flavor but the other flavor might be a natural garlic flavor. We just don't know.

Current Version (2013): Soybean oil, water, salt, contains less than 2% of garlic*, vegetable mono & diglycerides, natural & artificial flavor, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, soy lecithin, lactic acid, sodium benzoate (a preservative), calcium disodium EDTA added to protect flavor, citric acid, carotene(color), Vitamin A palmitate added. *Dehydrated

Peter

Peter,

What kind of product do you think that can be tried to get that buttery oily mouthfeel in a clone PJ Garlic sauce and still meet the current Ingredient List.  I am at a loss of what to try. 

I can put a little of the Shank's artificial butter flavor into the recent PJ attempt to see what happens.  I was going to make a dough for Tuesday yesterday, but since this PJ Garlic sauce is harder to replicate than I ever imagined, I think I will wait until another week to try the cheesesticks at market. 

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #529 on: June 16, 2013, 10:53:27 AM »
What kind of product do you think that can be tried to get that buttery oily mouthfeel in a clone PJ Garlic sauce and still meet the current Ingredient List.  I am at a loss of what to try. 

I can put a little of the Shank's artificial butter flavor into the recent PJ attempt to see what happens.  I was going to make a dough for Tuesday yesterday, but since this PJ Garlic sauce is harder to replicate than I ever imagined, I think I will wait until another week to try the cheesesticks at market. 
Norma,

I think I would go with the Shank's Artificial Butter Flavor to see if that gets you in the right direction. Unfortunately, there are so many forms and brands of artificial butter flavorings. However, here is one that is sold by Durkee Foods on its foodservice side that looks more promising because it has both natural and artificial flavors: http://profileshowcase.foodprofile.com/ProductUpc/000280tonebrothers/047600344936?MFR_NUM=000118. From the retail side of the Durkee website at http://www.durkee.com/productsearch?type=cat&cat=7&let=B, it looks like there may be a comparable product at the retail level but I did not see the ingredients list for that product.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #530 on: June 16, 2013, 11:05:11 AM »
Norma,

Here is another imitation butter flavor that looks even better than the Durkee product: http://www.amazon.com/McCormick-Imitation-Flavored-Extract-16-Ounce/dp/B0012272X8/?tag=pizzamaking-20. As noted at the Amazon website, the McCormick Imitation Butter Flavor includes Soybean Oil, Natural and Artificial Flavors and Lactic Acid. All of those ingredients are in the PJ Garlic sauce. Interestingly, there are no Nutrition Facts for the McCormick product since, as noted next to the ingredients list, the product has no significant nutritional value.

As you can see from http://www.amazon.com/McCormick-Imitation-Butter-Flavor-1-Ounce/dp/B000B6FLOI/?tag=pizzamaking-20, the retail McCormick Imitation Butter Flavor has entirely different ingredients. They are the same as your Shank's product.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #531 on: June 16, 2013, 12:01:01 PM »
Norma,

I think I would go with the Shank's Artificial Butter Flavor to see if that gets you in the right direction. Unfortunately, there are so many forms and brands of artificial butter flavorings. However, here is one that is sold by Durkee Foods on its foodservice side that looks more promising because it has both natural and artificial flavors: http://profileshowcase.foodprofile.com/ProductUpc/000280tonebrothers/047600344936?MFR_NUM=000118. From the retail side of the Durkee website at http://www.durkee.com/productsearch?type=cat&cat=7&let=B, it looks like there may be a comparable product at the retail level but I did not see the ingredients list for that product.

Peter

Norma,

Here is another imitation butter flavor that looks even better than the Durkee product: http://www.amazon.com/McCormick-Imitation-Flavored-Extract-16-Ounce/dp/B0012272X8/?tag=pizzamaking-20. As noted at the Amazon website, the McCormick Imitation Butter Flavor includes Soybean Oil, Natural and Artificial Flavors and Lactic Acid. All of those ingredients are in the PJ Garlic sauce. Interestingly, there are no Nutrition Facts for the McCormick product since, as noted next to the ingredients list, the product has no significant nutritional value.

As you can see from http://www.amazon.com/McCormick-Imitation-Butter-Flavor-1-Ounce/dp/B000B6FLOI/?tag=pizzamaking-20, the retail McCormick Imitation Butter Flavor has entirely different ingredients. They are the same as your Shank's product.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the links to the Drukee products and the McCormick products both at retail and on the foodserice side. 

I did try adding 2 grams of the Shank's product to my last PJ Garlic sauce attempt and although it gave a better butter taste and mixed well, there still wasn't that oily mouth-feel.  I then added a little more soybean/vegetable oil and water to see if that would make the ingredients separate more, or give it a better mouth-feel, but that didn't happen.  The mixture was still homogeneous.  I now put both my attempt and the PJ Garlic sauce into the freezer to see either of them separates and also to see which one might freeze faster.  I might end up mixing my attempt and the PJ Garlic sauce together to see what happens.

What could be in the PJ Garlic sauce that gives it the really good mouth-feel?

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #532 on: June 16, 2013, 12:22:04 PM »
What could be in the PJ Garlic sauce that gives it the really good mouth-feel?
Norma,

I think it is the emulsification of the oils by the mono- and diglycerides and the soy lecithin. The PJ Garlic sauce and the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread have similar ingredients in that respect although the Parkay product does not have diglycerides listed as an ingredient, only the monoglycerides. The consistencies of the products may also have an effect on how the products feel in the mouth.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #533 on: June 16, 2013, 12:59:58 PM »
Norma,

I think it is the emulsification of the oils by the mono- and diglycerides and the soy lecithin. The PJ Garlic sauce and the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread have similar ingredients in that respect although the Parkay product does not have diglycerides listed as an ingredient, only the monoglycerides. The consistencies of the products may also have an effect on how the products feel in the mouth.

Peter

Thanks for explaining that you think it is the emulsification of the oils by the mono- and diglycerides and the soy lecthin, or maybe the consistencies of the two products may have an effect on how the products feel in the mouth.

Norma



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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #534 on: June 16, 2013, 03:26:56 PM »
My curiosity got the better of me so I decided to purchase some Parkay Squeeze margarine spread and to conduct a hydration bake test using that product.

For my test, I decided to try to emulate the PJ Garlic sauce from a weight perspective. To do this, I added some dried garlic powder, a bit of soybean oil, and a bit of salt to the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread. I allowed a little slack in my numbers to account for the small amounts of the other ingredients used in the Parkay Squeeze product. The ingredients and their weights were as follows:

26 grams, Parkay Squeeze margarine spread (60% vegetable oil)
1.134 grams soybean oil (1/4 t.)
0.60 grams of dried garlic powder
0.17 grams, salt (1/32 t.)
Total weight = 27.904 grams

I put the above mixture into a metal jar lid (with a weight of 12 grams) and heated it in my countertop oven for about 1 1/2 hours. My oven does not have very accurate temperature control but I estimate that the temperature varied between 200-230 degrees F, particularly with the many door openings to check the progress of the test. After about a half hour, I noticed that the mixture was bubbling. I continued the test until I saw that the bubbling had pretty much subsided. I then let the mixture cool and weighed it on my small digital scale and did some calculations to determine how much water was in the test sample. The number I came up with was 35.9%. Previously, I indicated that according to the NutritionselfData.com website a generic 60% vegetable oil margarine spread contains about 37.5% water. That is a difference of only 1.6%. That difference is small enough to lead me to believe that there may be some merit to conducting hydration bake tests with margarine-based products.

One of the things that I noticed when I conducted the test is that there was some residue of solid ingredients that settled at the bottom of the mixture. Quantitatively, it seemed to be more than the amount of dry garlic powder that I used for the test. I believe what may have happened is that the dry garlic powder was rehydrated by the water in the Parkay Squeeze product and increased in volume.

When I have a chance, I may repeat the above experiment but use only the Parkay Squeeze product. That should tell me if the residue was solely attributable to the dried garlic powder. And the test might confirm the results of the above test with respect to water content.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #535 on: June 16, 2013, 03:52:16 PM »
My curiosity got the better of me so I decided to purchase some Parkay Squeeze margarine spread and to conduct a hydration bake test using that product.

For my test, I decided to try to emulate the PJ Garlic sauce from a weight perspective. To do this, I added some dried garlic powder, a bit of soybean oil, and a bit of salt to the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread. I allowed a little slack in my numbers to account for the small amounts of the other ingredients used in the Parkay Squeeze product. The ingredients and their weights were as follows:

26 grams, Parkay Squeeze margarine spread (60% vegetable oil)
1.134 grams soybean oil (1/4 t.)
0.60 grams of dried garlic powder
0.17 grams, salt (1/32 t.)
Total weight = 27.904 grams

I put the above mixture into a metal jar lid (with a weight of 12 grams) and heated it in my countertop oven for about 1 1/2 hours. My oven does not have very accurate temperature control but I estimate that the temperature varied between 200-230 degrees F, particularly with the many door openings to check the progress of the test. After about a half hour, I noticed that the mixture was bubbling. I continued the test until I saw that the bubbling had pretty much subsided. I then let the mixture cool and weighed it on my small digital scale and did some calculations to determine how much water was in the test sample. The number I came up with was 35.9%. Previously, I indicated that according to the NutritionselfData.com website a generic 60% vegetable oil margarine spread contains about 37.5% water. That is a difference of only 1.6%. That difference is small enough to lead me to believe that there may be some merit to conducting hydration bake tests with margarine-based products.

One of the things that I noticed when I conducted the test is that there was some residue of solid ingredients that settled at the bottom of the mixture. Quantitatively, it seemed to be more than the amount of dry garlic powder that I used for the test. I believe what may have happened is that the dry garlic powder was rehydrated by the water in the Parkay Squeeze product and increased in volume.

When I have a chance, I may repeat the above experiment but use only the Parkay Squeeze product. That should tell me if the residue was solely attributable to the dried garlic powder. And the test might confirm the results of the above test with respect to water content.

Peter

Peter,

Glad to hear you curiosity got the better of you and you decided to do a hydration bake test using the Parkay Squeeze product along with the other ingredients.  Good to hear from your hydration test that you think there might be some merit to conducting hydration bake tests with margarine-based products. 

Did you taste your mixture of Parkay Squeeze product with the other ingredients added to see if you thought it tasted, or looked anything like the PJ Garlic sauce?

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #536 on: June 16, 2013, 04:20:58 PM »
Did you taste your mixture of Parkay Squeeze product with the other ingredients added to see if you thought it tasted, or looked anything like the PJ Garlic sauce?
Norma,

I did mix everything together at the outset but I did not taste the mixture at that time because I didn't want to alter any of the numbers. By the time I was done, I did taste the mixture but it was in liquid form at that point. I didn't think to put the mixture in the refrigerator to harden it again but even if I had I wouldn't have been able to tell how it compared with the PJ Garlic sauce since it was so long ago that I last sampled that product. My mind was on whether a hydration bake test with the PJ Garlic sauce would tell us how much water is in it. That number, if different than the corresponding number for the Parkay Squeeze product, could tell us if water would have to be added to the Parkay product to get the same consistency as the PJ Garlic sauce.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #537 on: June 16, 2013, 04:59:26 PM »
Norma,

My mind was on whether a hydration bake test with the PJ Garlic sauce would tell us how much water is in it. That number, if different than the corresponding number for the Parkay Squeeze product, could tell us if water would have to be added to the Parkay product to get the same consistency as the PJ Garlic sauce.

Peter

Peter,

I understand that would help to determine how much water would have to be added to the Parkay Squeeze product to get the same consistency as the PJ Garlic sauce. 

I didn't know you have not tasted the PJ Garlic Sauce lately.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #538 on: June 16, 2013, 07:39:29 PM »
Norma,

How long till your dough is ready?
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #539 on: June 16, 2013, 09:13:45 PM »
Norma,

How long till your dough is ready?

Nate,

My dough for the cheesesticks is ready now.  I was sidetracked for a little while, but I still will bake them tonight.  Is there something you wanted to tell me about them?

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #540 on: June 16, 2013, 09:45:16 PM »
Nate,

My dough for the cheesesticks is ready now.  I was sidetracked for a little while, but I still will bake them tonight.  Is there something you wanted to tell me about them?

Norma

Nope.  Just anxious to see how they turn out for u.  Are u using your own garlic sauce or Papas?
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #541 on: June 16, 2013, 09:51:39 PM »
Nope.  Just anxious to see how they turn out for u.  Are u using your own garlic sauce or Papas?

Nate,

I just started to heat up the oven.  I probably will be using the attempt I made on the PJ garlic sauce along with what was left of the PJ Garlic sauce in the one container.  I really haven't decided yet what I am going to do including rack position.

Norma


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #542 on: June 16, 2013, 11:20:23 PM »
This is how my first attempt went on making PJ cheesesticks.  The dough looked fermented enough in 3 days and the dough was very easy to open and seemed to me that it looked a lot easier to open then when I watched the shift manger at PJ open the dough ball.  I made some dustinator flour.  I mixed regular flour with semolina and soybean oil for the dustinator flour.  The dough ball was opened to about 12 and only was docked one time.  The garlic sauce was applied next and the then a little over 2 cups of LMPS mozzarella was placed on the top.

I really couldn't decide what rack position to try, and wondered if the bottom of the cheesesticks would brown enough only using the screen on the middle rack, so I put my pizza stone on the bottom rack position incase the bottom crust would not brown enough on the middle rack using the screen.  In the end that was a good decision because the bottom crust didn't want to brown enough and I saw the cheese was starting to brown.  The cheesesticks were then taken off the screen with the metal peel and placed on the pizza stone.  That did the trick of browning the bottom okay.  The cheese didn't melt perfectly at all places on the top and some parts wanted to get browner than other places. 

I must say though, even though the cheesestick I attempted were not perfect, they were really good.  The crust had a much better flavor than the ones I had at PJ.  The crumb of the cheesesticks were soft too. 

Total bake time was 10 minutes at 500 degrees F.

Norma 

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #543 on: June 16, 2013, 11:22:17 PM »
Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #544 on: June 17, 2013, 08:44:07 AM »
Norma,

You did a nice job with the Cheesestick clones.

In the past, I have observed PJ workers work with dough balls right out of the cooler. They are hard to open up without resorting to a lot of docking. I suspect the dough ball that the worker in the PJ store you visited used to make your Cheesesticks had been allowed to warm up but maybe not to the optimum stage.

You indicated that you used two cups of shredded mozzarella cheese. If you look at the video below, you will note that the amount of cheese put on the skin is rather sparse. Was the cup you used a standard 8-ounce (by volume) measuring cup? If so, you might sometime try using less cheese if only to be able to make a more direct comparison with the Cheesesticks that PJ makes. Also, cheese is the most expensive item on the Cheesesticks product. That might be a factor if you decide to sell your Cheesestick clones at market.

I notice also that you cut the pizza into 18 pieces instead of 14 pieces (some PJ stores apparently cut into 16 pieces). I assume that you were not trying to copy PJ exactly on this aspect.

With respect to oven rack position, when I made my PJ pizza clones, using a screen, I placed the screen on the lowermost oven rack position of my electric oven. Depending on what was placed on the pizzas and their quantities, I would sometimes have to raise the pizza in the oven once the bottom crust was of the desired color in order to get more top crust browning or to finish cooking the toppings. The oven temperature I used was around 500 degrees F.

Were you satisfied with the performance of your garlic sauce?



Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #545 on: June 17, 2013, 09:55:48 AM »
Norma,

You did a nice job with the Cheesestick clones.

In the past, I have observed PJ workers work with dough balls right out of the cooler. They are hard to open up without resorting to a lot of docking. I suspect the dough ball that the worker in the PJ store you visited used to make your Cheesesticks had been allowed to warm up but maybe not to the optimum stage.

You indicated that you used two cups of shredded mozzarella cheese. If you look at the video below, you will note that the amount of cheese put on the skin is rather sparse. Was the cup you used a standard 8-ounce (by volume) measuring cup? If so, you might sometime try using less cheese if only to be able to make a more direct comparison with the Cheesesticks that PJ makes. Also, cheese is the most expensive item on the Cheesesticks product. That might be a factor if you decide to sell your Cheesestick clones at market.

I notice also that you cut the pizza into 18 pieces instead of 14 pieces (some PJ stores apparently cut into 16 pieces). I assume that you were not trying to copy PJ exactly on this aspect.

With respect to oven rack position, when I made my PJ pizza clones, using a screen, I placed the screen on the lowermost oven rack position of my electric oven. Depending on what was placed on the pizzas and their quantities, I would sometimes have to raise the pizza in the oven once the bottom crust was of the desired color in order to get more top crust browning or to finish cooking the toppings. The oven temperature I used was around 500 degrees F.

Were you satisfied with the performance of your garlic sauce?



Peter

Peter,

My cheesesticks sure didn't look like Nate's.  I really don't know where the shift manager got that cheesestick dough ball from, but he went into the back to get it.  It probably was warmed up some, but it you are probably right that maybe it wasn't warmed up to the optimum stage.  The doughs balls I watched the shift manager take out of the dough boxes and then make into pizzas didn't look to easy to open either.

I see the cheese amount placed on the cheesesticks in the video is rather sparse.  I used a regular measuring cup to apply the LMPS mozzarella.  The shift manager used some kind of cup (applied two times) to put mozzarella on the cheesesticks I purchased at PJ and then sprinkled more mozzarella on them, but I wasn't close enough to really see what size cup or portion container he used.  I can understand if I decide to sell the cheesesticks clones I will have to be careful in how much cheese I apply, because I know cheese is expensive. 

There was no reason why I cut the cheesesticks into 18 pieces.  I just cut.

Thanks for telling me when you made your PJ clone pizzas, using a screen, that you placed the screen on the lowermost oven rack position.  I should have look though this thread more to see what you did before I decided to bake.  After the bake, I thought I probably should have tried the bottom rack position because the heating element is on the bottom. 

My garlic sauce spread okay and there weren't any messes in my oven from the garlic sauce, but I was not satisfied with the taste of my attempt at the garlic sauce compared to PJ Garlic sauce.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #546 on: June 17, 2013, 01:10:36 PM »
Norma,

Nice looking CheeseSticks there.  The thickness is spot on.  The bottoms of the sticks differ from papa johns though (the stone I'm thinking). Which texture (crunch) was better, yours or papa johns).  As for the cheese I used 4oz.  How bout you?

Nate
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #547 on: June 17, 2013, 01:25:29 PM »
Them's some cheesy cheese stix Norma.  :drool:
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #548 on: June 17, 2013, 05:34:58 PM »
Norma,

Nice looking CheeseSticks there.  The thickness is spot on.  The bottoms of the sticks differ from papa johns though (the stone I'm thinking). Which texture (crunch) was better, yours or papa johns).  As for the cheese I used 4oz.  How bout you?

Nate

Thanks Nate, but mine sure didn't look as good as yours.  :-D  I liked my attempt better on the bottom crust compared to PJ bottom crust.  I used 2 cups plus a little more of LMPS mozzarella. 

Norma

Offline pythonic

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #549 on: June 17, 2013, 08:05:27 PM »
Thanks Nate, but mine sure didn't look as good as yours.  :-D  I liked my attempt better on the bottom crust compared to PJ bottom crust.  I used 2 cups plus a little more of LMPS mozzarella. 

Norma

I used convection if that helps with the cheese.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.


 

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