Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 220822 times)

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Offline gnatto

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #600 on: September 08, 2013, 10:40:56 PM »
Well, I just put two balls of dough in the fridge to begin the 2 day cold rise. I had wanted to read all 30 pages before I made the dough so I could use all the tips that people have had over the years but after 16 pages I just had to get something in the fridge so I could have a go of it.

I decided on the two day dough, Pete's second one attempted I believe.

I live in NZ so there are some limitations, ie, can't get KA flour here. I have just been using a generic supermaket flour http://www.thedieline.com/resource/03_27_13_pamsflour_2.jpg?fileId=22302882. I used the high grade flour for this one. I'm still figuring out the whole high protein flour that seems to be why people like the KA flour so any advice based on whats available to me would be appreciated for future dough balls. Basically supermakets stock two types of flour under each brand, plain flour (21% protein) and high grade flour (22% protein).

I don't have a pizza screen yet (a couple weeks away) so will be cooking on a pizza stone. Don't believe that will be a problem as I've always had issues with bottom browning anyway.

One other thing to note is that I've never actually tasted a papa johns pizza since they don't have it here...
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 10:47:01 PM by Pete-zza »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #601 on: September 08, 2013, 11:06:08 PM »
gnatto,

I am not familiar with the protein numbers you mentioned, but as best I can tell from a search, the high grade flour appears to be a bread flour. That is the flour I would use.

Peter

Online nick57

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #602 on: September 09, 2013, 12:06:52 AM »
Pete, I saw that pic the other day. I googled PJ's and looked at their pics of their pies. It looks a little unappetizing to me to see all those pies just sitting there. I used Wal Mart's whole milk mozz and Kraft's part skim mozz at a ratio of 2/3 whole and 1/3 skim. I'll be looking forward to leftovers tomorrow.

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #603 on: September 09, 2013, 12:57:59 PM »
I forgot to post a bottom pic of the pie. It had nice even browning. Not sure if it is typical of a PJ's browning. I warmed this slice up in  a pan. It tasted about the same as fresh out of the oven. The crust may be just a little crisper than it was when freshly baked, but it was still light and chewy. I cooked the pie at 500 degrees on the stone for 5 minutes, then moved the pie to an upper rack for about 5 more minutes before pulling. Don't know where I would rate this one as compared to my other styles of pies, but I will make this style again for sure. I guess my next purchase will be a screen to see the difference in the procedures.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 01:06:08 PM by nick57 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #604 on: September 09, 2013, 02:06:25 PM »
Nick,

Your bottom crust coloration looks very good. Some members who baked PJ clone pizzas directly on pizza stones had to watch their bake very carefully because of the high sugar content of the dough that could cause the bottom of the crust to brown before the rest of the pizza finished baking. Using a two-level bake as you did is a good way to achieve the proper balance between the bottom of the pizza and the top of the pizza. That approach also works well when using a screen. How much you put on the pizza will also affect how you bake it to get the desired top and bottom balance. The laws of thermodynamics and physics have to be observed.

I did not try using the stone method myself only because PJ didn't use one. Had I done so, I might have lowered the amount of sugar in the dough. But that might have reduced the sweetness that is characteristic of the PJ style of pizza. As it turned out, members reported good results baking the PJ clone pizzas on stones without modifying the dough formulations. Some may have even preferred a slightly overdone bottom crust.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 02:08:06 PM by Pete-zza »

Online nick57

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #605 on: September 09, 2013, 09:35:04 PM »
I don't remember if the PJ's crust was crispy and chewy, my outer crust was crispy and the inner had a nice light chew. I did the stone and move technique because of the reading the thread. I thought if I let the pie cook just long enough on the stone for the crust to be solid enough to move, I would avoid the burning created by the high sugar content that you had commented on in your posts. It is a little more work, but seemed to do the trick.

 I see you are in Texas. OU VS Texas... Bedlam! I don't care too much who wins, just as long as it is a good game. I love Big D! I have been to Houston, Galveston, San Antonio, and of course Padre Island. It's a fun state, except for the humidity and temps. Of course it is almost as hot here. Tulsa is a fun place, lots of entertainment, eateries, food trucks, art festivals, and the cost of living is one of the lowest in the country. We are a testing place for new restaurant chains and retail stores. Middle of the country I guess.

Offline gnatto

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #606 on: September 16, 2013, 03:43:13 AM »
So... finally getting around to post about my experience.

Overall it was, I suppose, both successful and unsuccessful. Using the two day rise on page 2. I had two doughs so two goes at cooking it.

I used a 13' size as that is as large as I can go with my equipment.

The first attempt (first three photos) I cooked it on the pizza stone from about 8 minutes and then on the last two minutes of cooking moved it to the top of the oven on a cookie tray since the bottom seemed to be getting a little too done (I'm not entirely sure the top of my oven is the hottest part but it seems to tend to me for other people.) It sure looked good but I can't say that I was too impressed with it.

The bottom was very crispy, and then the middle seemed too bready to me. Again, not having ever tasted an actual Papa Johns pizza I have no real ability to see how it compares.

The second attempt after 7 minutes I moved it to the top tray and cooked it for a total of 9 minutes. It did seem better to me, not too crisp on the bottom, but inside still bready. Though hard to tell if it was actually better because by the time I ate the second one I had already finished one whole pizza and wasn't exactly feeling like eating pizza anymore.

Would I make it again? Not right away at least. Didn't love it. Unless I figure out something I could do differently the second time then I don't know how to improve it.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 03:46:03 AM by gnatto »

Offline JasonT

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #607 on: September 19, 2013, 09:44:12 PM »
Pete,

Are there ways to play around with the flavor of the crust?

Ie using honey or brown sugar instead of sugar.

If I did that would it make a difference in taste and would I need to change any part of the formulation aside from using the honey/brown sugar?

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #608 on: September 22, 2013, 12:26:17 PM »
Pete,

Are there ways to play around with the flavor of the crust?

Ie using honey or brown sugar instead of sugar.

If I did that would it make a difference in taste and would I need to change any part of the formulation aside from using the honey/brown sugar?

Jason,

Although Papa John's does not add flavorings to its dough, sometimes members complain that the PJ clone crusts are too bland. To answer your question, yes, it is possible to use honey or brown sugar instead of ordinary table sugar (sucrose). Most retail brown sugars, in particular, are really processed sucrose with a bit of molasses. Honey has some advantages over sucrose in that it has natural sugars that can be used as food by the yeast fairly quickly, whereas it can take some time to break down table sugar into the forms of sugars that yeast like. I have tried using honey in the PJ clone doughs but only to make "emergency" type doughs. See, for example, Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312, Reply 107 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg80757.html#msg80757, and Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg96745/topicseen.html#msg96745. I have not made non-emergency PJ clone doughs with honey, but I do not see any reason why you can't replace at least some of the sugar with honey.

Molasses also adds a nice flavor, and also some color, to a finished crust, but if that is a flavor that has special appeal to you, I would rather try out a Mellow Mushroom style of pizza. There is an entire thread on that style at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg32937.html#msg32937. That thread has only 93 pages and 1850 posts (as of this date) ;D.

It is also possible to add garlic powder, or onion powder, or even a combination of both powders, to the dough. However, as discussed at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8566.msg74341/topicseen.html#msg74341, you have to be careful as to how much to use. Of course, you would not want to use these powders for a dessert style pizza such as shown in Reply 172 referenced above.

For other crust flavors, and especially topical flavorings that can be applied to the rims of pizzas, you might check out a Hungry Howie's website for some ideas. I did that this morning, and I saw the following ingredients lists for the Hungry Howie Flavored Crust Ingredients, from which you might glean some ideas (you can perhaps safely ignore a lot of the strange sounding chemical ingredients or find a commercial version of a particular flavor product of interest):

1.Ranch
Salt, buttermilk powder, whey, dehydrated onion & garlic, dehydrated tomato powder, monosodium glutamate, sodium diacetate, butter powder, natural cheddar cheese flavor, natural cream flavor, sugar, non fat dry milk, parsley flakes, black pepper, natural and artificial sour cream flavor, ground nutmeg.

2.Roasted Onion
Maltodextrin, salt, dehydrated onion, butter powder, dehydrated garlic, natural onion flavor, poppy seed, parsley flakes, silicon disoxide, whole oregano & basil.

3.Garlic Herb
Maltodextrin, salt, dehydrated garlic, butter powder, dehydrated onion, parsley flakes, whole oregano & basil, garlic extractive, silicon dioxide, turmeric & paprika extractive.

4.Cajun
Salt, dehydrated onion, maltodextrin, dehydrated garlic, paprika, whole thyme, crushed red pepper, whole basil & Oregano, ground red pepper, paprika & capsicum extractives, silicon dioxide.

5.Sugar & Cinnamon Blend
Sugar, ground cinnamon, soybean oil

6.Butter Flavored
Partially hydrogenated soybean oil, salt, natural and artificial flavors, beta carotene (color), TBHQ and citric acid added to protect flavor, dimethylpolysiloxane, an anti-foaming agent added.


Jet's Pizza also offers flavored crusts but does not provide related ingredients lists. However, you can get some general ideas here:

http://jetspizza.com/menu/category/3

Finally, if you don't mind reading, you might check out this PMQ Think Tank thread on increasing the flavor of dough: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4231&hilit=. I believe that it is one of the most viewed threads that has ever been posted on the PMQTT.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 08:42:18 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline JasonT

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #609 on: September 22, 2013, 01:49:08 PM »
Jason,

Although Papa John's does not add flavorings to its dough, sometimes members complain that the PJ clone crusts are too bland. To answer your question, yes, it is possible to use honey or brown sugar instead of ordinary table sugar (sucrose). Most retail brown sugars, in particular, are really processed sucrose with a bit of molasses. Honey has some advantages over sucrose in that it has natural sugars that can be used as food by the yeast fairly quickly, whereas it can take some time to break down table sugar into the forms of sugars that yeast like. I have tried using honey in the PJ clone doughs but only to make "emergency" type doughs. See, for example, Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312, Reply 107 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg80757.html#msg80757, and Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg96745/topicseen.html#msg96745. I have not made non-emergency PJ clone doughs with honey, but I do not see any reason why you can't replace at least some of the sugar with honey.

Molasses also adds a nice flavor, and also some color, to a finished crust, but if that is a flavor that has special appeal to you, I would rather try out a Mellow Mushroom style of pizza. There is an entire  thread on that style at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg32937.html#msg32937. That thread has only 93 pages and 1850 posts (as of this date) ;D.

It is also possible to add garlic powder, or onion powder, or even a combination of both powders, to to the dough. However, as discussed at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8566.msg74341/topicseen.html#msg74341, you have to be careful as to how much to use. Of course, you would not want to use these powders for a dessert style pizza such as shown in Reply 172 referenced above.

For other crust flavors, and especially topical flavorings that can be applied to the rims of pizzas, you might check out a Hungry Howie's website for some ideas. I did that this morning, and I saw the following ingredients lists for the Hungry Howie Flavored Crust Ingredients, from which you might glean some ideas (you can perhaps safely ignore a lot of the strange sounding chemical ingredients or find a commercial version of a particular flavor product of interest):

1.Ranch
Salt, buttermilk powder, whey, dehydrated onion & garlic, dehydrated tomato powder, monosodium glutamate, sodium diacetate, butter powder, natural cheddar cheese flavor, natural cream flavor, sugar, non fat dry milk, parsley flakes, black pepper, natural and artificial sour cream flavor, ground nutmeg.

2.Roasted Onion
Maltodextrin, salt, dehydrated onion, butter powder, dehydrated garlic, natural onion flavor, poppy seed, parsley flakes, silicon disoxide, whole oregano & basil.

3.Garlic Herb
Maltodextrin, salt, dehydrated garlic, butter powder, dehydrated onion, parsley flakes, whole oregano & basil, garlic extractive, silicon dioxide, turmeric & paprika extractive.

4.Cajun
Salt, dehydrated onion, maltodextrin, dehydrated garlic, paprika, whole thyme, crushed red pepper, whole basil & Oregano, ground red pepper, paprika & capsicum extractives, silicon dioxide.

5.Sugar & Cinnamon Blend
Sugar, ground cinnamon, soybean oil

6.Butter Flavored
Partially hydrogenated soybean oil, salt, natural and artificial flavors, beta carotene (color), TBHQ and citric acid added to protect flavor, dimethylpolysiloxane, an anti-foaming agent added.


Jet's Pizza also offers flavored crusts but does not provide related ingredients lists. However, you can get some general ideas here:

http://jetspizza.com/menu/category/3

Finally, if you don't mind reading, you might check out this PMQ Think Tank thread on increasing the flavor of dough: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4231&hilit=. I believe that it is one of the most viewed threads that has ever been posted on the PMQTT.

Peter


Hey Pete,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I actually find this dough to be excellent and the taste is outstanding. I've been making this dough for almost a year now, so I just don't want to get bored with it. I've probably made it at least 30 times or more since last Oct. I'm just comfortable with it, love the taste as well, but figured I could always try to see if it can be modified and taste even better. As they say you never know until you try.

I've looked through the forum and it's hard to find other recipes that I think will appeal to me, but when I do it is usually a 30 page long thread and I have trouble tracking down your final recipe lol.

I've looked over your emergency dough collection, but I'd rather let my dough rise over a couple of days.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 01:51:39 PM by JasonT »


Offline JasonT

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #610 on: September 25, 2013, 06:13:15 PM »
I'm going to try an experiment for the forum, in case others like their bottom crust lightly done, but crunchy. I suspect parchment paper may help to keep the bottom from burning, assuming you work within the correct parameters of cooking time, sugar content like Pete says, etc.

A couple of weeks ago my wife picked up a pizza from Pizza Pizza, but they were late with the order. So she was watching them make it because she knows I'm crazy and obsessed with pizza making now. We ordered a lightly done crust and she noticed they put the other pizzas in the oven normally, but used parchment paper on our pizza.

It came out as perfect as possible: it was very light brown without a hint of a burn mark.

So last week we cooked the PJ clone on a stone as usual, but used parchment paper and this time it came out very light, but crispy on the bottom, with no burn marks anywhere just like at PP. Normally the outside bottom has some noticeable burning without the parchment paper.

In the past, whenever I tried to push the PJ clone in my oven beyond 7 minutes, the bottom always burned noticeably. So this week I will make two PJ clone doughs and see if I can cook them for 8-9 minutes on parchment paper without burning them.

I'll let you guys know how it turns out.


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #611 on: September 28, 2013, 08:33:30 PM »
Well, it was OU VS Notre Dame, so I made pizza for the game party. I made two pizzas, one was Pete's updated Papa John's, the other was, Garvey's Chi town thin.  Both were winners. The Papa John's was topped with pepperoni, Garvey's homemade Italian sausage, green peppers, olives, sauteed mushrooms, and purple onions. The sausage was better than any I have bought, homemade from now on for me. I took the diced peppers, and purple onions and placed then between paper towels to draw out the moisture. I did the same for the mushrooms. It really did the trick, no release of moisture. I cooked the pie on the stone the whole time. The crust browned nicely, no burning. The rim was a little bigger than my last, but they ate all the bones anyway. The Chi pie was thinner than my last one, it was very crispy, not cracker like though.

I let the pies cool on a rack for 10 minutes. I then placed them in the pizza boxes and went on a 30 minute drive. My friend had preheated her oven to 350. When I arrived, I placed a pie on the stone for 5 minutes. I then removed the pie to a cooling rack and then placed the other pie in the oven while the first cooled. There was not much if any difference in quality from a freshly made pie. The crusts were crispy, and the crumb was very light to the chew. Thank the Lord! I was worried that the crusts would be soft and hard to chew. My friends loved both styles, the Chi was very spicy, and the PJ's was sweet. Now If I want to take pizza to a party, I know that it won't disappoint. Even after the pies sat for a while, they came back for the cold and softened slices, and still loved it. Thanks Pete, and Garvey! ;D

   

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #612 on: September 28, 2013, 09:13:58 PM »
Nick,

I'm glad that the pizzas worked out for you and your friends. No doubt the combination of OU's 35 to 21 victory over Notre Dame and some good brews made the pizzas go down more smoothly.

Peter

Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #613 on: September 28, 2013, 09:16:10 PM »
For the last few weeks I have been trying to improve my cracker crust pies to no avail. So, I decided to take a break. I have been following this thread for quite some time. I have not had a PJ pie in quite a while, so I have no way to judge at the moment how close this tastes to the real thing.

Really nice pizzas, Nick! 

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #614 on: September 28, 2013, 10:26:48 PM »
Really nice pizzas, Nick!

I agree Nick.  ^^^

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #615 on: September 29, 2013, 09:46:23 AM »
Thanks guys for the nice comments. My friends have been waiting to try my pies for quite a while. They loved both styles, and a couple said it was the best pizza they ever ate. That is a good comment on the low quality of pizzas we have here. They loved the Italian sausage I made using the  Kenji Lopez-Alt  recipe via Garvey. I was worried that the sausage would not be so good. It did not look like any I had used in the past. It turned out to be the best Italian sausage I have eaten.
 
 The main thing I took from this is, I can cook the pies in advance without too much loss in quality when reheated. The PJ pie seemed to hold up the best. The Chi pie held up pretty well, but as it sat out for a while the crust did get soft. I cut both pies and let them sit on cooling racks to keep the crust from getting soft too quickly. The PJ's pie was the tastiest pizza I have made to date, I will make it again for sure, and it will be my go to pie for parties. Thanks again everybody!
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 02:32:00 PM by nick57 »

Offline Charg

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #616 on: October 04, 2013, 11:49:55 AM »
Made the dough and let it sit in the fridge for 4 days, just got it out and coated it with flour to sit for 1.5 hours. It's very dense and hard, is this normal? When I normally make dough it sits in the fridge for 18-24 hours and it rises. This one so far is behaving like the dough I made a few weeks ago, I had prepare an amount for 5 people. After fermenting it was really hard, and even after letting it adjust to room temperature it was very hard to work with and I could hardly stretch it. Hope this PJ clone attempt won't turn out the same.

Will report back with further comments and pictures.

Edit #1: we'll it turned out to be to best dough I've ever handled, haha. It's in the oven now, very excited :)
Edit #2: I started cooking it for 8 minutes, but it didn't look like what I expected, so I let it for another 2 minutes. Didn't see much change so I moved it to the top and broiled it for 1 minute. Those 3 minutes made the crust go from soft to just a little bit too hard. I basically did this because I was looking for a similar finish to what Pete was getting, which is see now was a bit unreasonable since there were a number of differences. For one I used AP flour, I went out and bought bread flour today, I'll try the recipe again for this Sunday.

Overall it's nothing close to a pj pizza, which the flour has a lot to do with that. The crust didn't really rise at all while it was cooking, not sure what I can do to help that.

I'll keep working on this as and see how much closer I can get.

I'll post the pictures later, I'm on my iPad right now
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 01:47:59 PM by Charg »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #617 on: October 04, 2013, 05:30:38 PM »
So I used a stone, I ordered a crisper from amazon, and it was shipped today. Side question, a screen and crisper is the same thing, correct?
Used my last bits of polish sausage, since I can't seem to find pepperoni around here that's reasonably priced.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 05:32:34 PM by Charg »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #618 on: October 04, 2013, 08:24:27 PM »
Side question, a screen and crisper is the same thing, correct?

Charg,

In the U.S., this is what a pizza screen looks like: http://www.webstaurantstore.com/14-aluminum-pizza-screen/40718714.html. However, over time, PJ stores have been moving to perforated disks with baked on PSTK coatings such as shown at Reply 242 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg123186.html#msg123186.

I don't know what kind of crisper you have ordered but the crispers that I have seen tend to be coated with a nonstick coating. Such crispers are not the best items to use to bake pizzas from scratch because most such coatings start to break down at around 450 degrees F. Eventually, with use, such crispers might be usable without worrying about toxic or noxious fumes emitted at high oven temperatures, but I would not consider them to be ideal. Both pizza screens and the PSTK disks can tolerate much higher temperatures than the crispers I have seen.

Peter

Offline Charg

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #619 on: October 04, 2013, 08:49:23 PM »
Ah, well that's unfortunate because that's exactly what I bought. That is, a non-stick crisper. Thanks for the reply.
http://www.amazon.ca/Fox-Run-4491-14-Inch-Non-Stick/dp/B000XTOKAO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1380935588&sr=8-2&keywords=pizza+crisper

Those screens for 2 bucks a piece.. damn. Too bad it's 30$ shipping =\ Anything local is 20ish

Got any suggestions as for my clone attempt?

« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 01:20:26 AM by Charg »