Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 296681 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #650 on: October 31, 2013, 09:53:06 AM »
Norma,

I have looked at a lot of images of the Papa John's Mega Chocolate Chip Cookies, and have read many reviews, and your clone of the PJ cookie looks very good and very professional.

You previously mentioned to me that you did not see the workers at the PJ store actually cut the PJ cookies. I can think of one or two ways of cutting the cookie without mangling it or the pan but can you tell us how you cut your clone PJ cookies? I might also note that when I was looking at one video review of the PJ cookie, the cookie was uncut. So, apparently that is one option that is available to those who would prefer to cut the cookies themselves, maybe in different numbers of slices. An uncut cookie might also not dry out as fast, and it might also be dressed up or wrapped for gifting purposes (giant cookies are very popular as birthday gifts).

Also, can you tell us how you have been preserving the leftover cookie slices so that they don't dry out and become brittle and hard? When I was reviewing the McDonald's soft baked chocolate chip cookies, the reviews were generally quite favorable (as well as the price) but there were some complaints that at some McDonald's locations, or at certain times of day, the McDonald's cookies were dried out hard. And the McDonald's cookies contain a lot of chocolate chips. On this point, I read elsewhere that microwaving the leftover cookie slices for a brief period helps restore the leftover slices.

Your use of less Clabber Girl baking powder may be an indication that the amount of cookie dough should be reduced a bit. The PJ weight numbers are somewhat vague and indefinite so it is hard to know what amount of cookie dough comes closest to what PJ does. Most chocolate chip cookie dough recipes that I have seen tend to call for a lot of baking soda or baking powder (or a combination of both). The amount of Clabber Girl baking powder that I came up was driven mainly by the Sodium numbers and the fact that baking powder contains a lot of Sodium.

Do you suppose that PJ uses the screens and parchment paper as a way of adapting the bake of the cookies to their conveyor ovens? Conveyor ovens perform differently from a thermodynamics standpoint than a home oven or even a deck oven. Maybe it is possible to bake a PJ clone cookie in a standard home oven in the usual manner.

FYI, I estimate that the ingredients costs for the PJ clone cookie dough using the bowl residue compensation of 10% come to about $1.85. This estimate is based on local supermarket prices for most of the items and Amazon pricing for the ingredients I do not have on hand. The price I quoted does not include the price of the disposable aluminum foil pan. I suspect that most people will just use whatever baking pan they have on hand. Disposable aluminum foil pans are quite inexpensive but to get really low prices you need to buy them in bulk, by the hundreds. Maybe you can get some samples somewhere to test at market.

Peter

Peter,

You are correct that I did not see the workers at PJ store actually cut the cookie but the worker told me the cookie is very easy to cut while it is still very warm with the tool that the worker had in his hand in my other post.  At market I used either a pizza cutter or some kind of old candy cutter I had at home.  What I usually did was use a screen or a pizza pan and put it on top of the cookie in the disposable aluminum pan and then flipped it and then put another screen or pizza pan on the bottom of the cookie and flipped it over again to be able to slice it.  I have also used a metal pizza peel for flipping.  I think an uncut cookie would be good as a gift for someone that likes chocolate chip cookies. 

I am posting in my next post about how I keep the cookie slices moist.  In some of my first bake attempts the cookie did dry out like one of my PJ cookies did.  The first cookie I purchased at PJ we ate the whole cookie before I could try to save a slice.  I think your idea of microwaving is a good one to try and restore the leftover slices.

When looking at the Nestle chocolate chip recipe or the Ghirardelli chocolate chip recipe on the back of the semi-sweet chocolate chips it only calls for 1 tsp. Baking soda for a whole recipe of chocolate chips.  Since the Clabber Girl baking power has a double leavening system instead of a single one why do you think the amount of cookie dough should be reduced a little?

I would suppose that PJ uses the screens and parchment paper as a way of adapting the bake of the cookies to their conveyor ovens.  I also do think conveyor ovens perform differently than a home oven or even a deck oven.  It might be possible to bake a PJ clone cookie in a standard home oven in the usual manner.  I did not try that.

I will see if I might be able to get some samples of disposable aluminum pans to test at market.  I did purchase 3 Hefty 8” disposable aluminum pans at Walmart but I did not try them yet.  They are higher in height than PJ pans.

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #651 on: October 31, 2013, 09:58:41 AM »
This is how using Peter's PJ clone cookie formulation and bake was at market on Tuesday in a deck oven.  As can be seen the cookie was about the same in a higher temperature oven.  The top screen used was more like PJ top screen.  I did use light brown sugar with Grandma's molasses instead of dark brown sugar in this attempt. 

I do not know what other members look for in a really good chocolate chip cookie but I look for a cookie that stays moist for a few days if placed in a plastic bag or closed container.  I just wanted to add that a piece of the PJ clone cookie made on Tuesday and eaten this morning is still very moist.

The second photo shows how much cookie batter was leftover from using a bowl residue compensation of 8%.  I even tried to scrap as much batter off as I could when mixing Peter's PJ clone cookie batter.

On the one photo it can be seen how the cookie looked where the batter stuck to the top screen a little in the bake.  That part of the cookie looks a little deformed.

If anyone has any questions just ask. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #652 on: October 31, 2013, 10:01:21 AM »
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #653 on: October 31, 2013, 11:49:50 AM »
I have some good news for those who wish to make a more economical version of the PJ clone chocolate chip cookie.

Today, courtesy of the Kroger Co., I found ingredients at my local Kroger store that, on  paper, appear to very good candidates to make a PJ clone chocolate chip cookie.

First, I found a Kroger house brand of semi-sweet chocolate chips that appears to be even closer to the semi-sweet chocolate chips that PJ uses than the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips. The reason is that the Kroger semi-sweet chocolate chips contain milkfat (which, incidentally, adds a bit of cholesterol), whereas the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips do not. The Kroger brand of semi-sweet chocolate chips are arguably a bit better than the semi-sweet chocolate chips that PJ uses because the Kroger chocolate chips use real vanilla, whereas the chocolate chips that PJ uses contain artificial vanilla (vanillin). The Total Fat content of the Kroger chocolate chips is a bit lower than the Ghirardelli chocolate chips but only by a little. The Sat Fats are the same. And, overall, the Kroger product matches up a bit better with the PJ Nutrition Facts for Total Fats than the Ghirardelli product. Of course, Nutrition Facts only tell part of the story. One has to taste the various brands of semi-sweet chocolate chips to determine preferences. I mention this because even though two products have the same ingredients statements, they can taste differently because the amounts of the individual components are different. In this case, I suspect that the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips have more of a "chocolate" flavor (more unsweetened chocolate and/or cocoa butter), and a less sweet taste. The price of the Kroger semi-sweet chocolate chips? $1.78, for 12 ounces (2 cups).

Second, I found a Kroger brand of margarine that appears to be identical to the Walmart Great Value 0 Trans Fat, palm-based margarine that was previously discussed and that has started appearing in the Walmart stores. The Nutrition Facts for the two margarine products are identical. The price? $0.99. It looks like the Walmart and Kroger margarines are so cheap that there is no point in promoting or advertising those products or even providing information on those products on their websites.

Third, I found a Kroger house brand of baking powder that contains the identical ingredients as used by the Clabber Girl brand. The Nutrition Facts for the two products are identical. The price? $1.00 (marked down from $1.19). The Clabber Girl baking powder in the comparable quantity is $1.79.

Finally, Kroger has the Gold Medal bleached/malted/enriched all-purpose flour on sale at $2.19 for five pounds. The Kroger house brand for a bleached/malted/enriched all-purpose flour costs $1.89 for five pounds but it contains less malting. That might lead to slightly reduced cookie coloration.

While I was at Kroger, I rechecked the various chocolate chip cookies, chocolate chip cookie mixes, and refrigerated chocolate chip cookie dough products sold at that store. Virtually all of those products list the flour and, in some case, sugar, as the predominant ingredient. This should not come as any surprise. Chocolate chips are expensive. Flour is cheap. And it doesn't matter whether we are talking about the best known and most respected brands or the bargain/value brands. I found only three chocolate chip cookie products that listed chocolate chips first. Interestingly, one of those products is a Kroger product called "THE Truly AWESOME homestyle chocolate chip cookie". Its label is a much cleaner label than most of the other chocolate chip cookies that I looked at, with far fewer chemicals and no hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated fats. Just basic ingredients.

Another chocolate chip cookie that I looked at that had the chocolate chips as the first ingredient is the Pepperidge Farm Double Chocolate Nantucket chocolate chunk cookie. The point I am making here is that chocolate chip cookies that have the chocolate chips as the dominant ingredient are few and far between. In some of the stores I visited, there were none.

As I checked out the ingredients statements for the various chocolate chip cookies, I looked to see how much leavening agent was used. In several cases the leavening agent was said to be 2% or less in terms of its predominance in the products where the leavening agent was used. My PJ clone cookie dough formulation calls for 1.5% baking powder. So, it appears that I am at least in the ballpark. Whether less should be used is hard to say at this point. Sodium is present in every ingredient used to make the PJ cookie, even in the vanilla. As a result, there is no way that I can think of to calculate how much Sodium is allocatable to the baking powder so as to be able to know how much of that ingredient to use.

Peter

« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 07:59:22 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Charg

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #654 on: November 02, 2013, 06:47:50 PM »
Here's my second attempt

I used what ingredients I had, as opposed to getting the exact ingredients you suggested. First attempt I cooked at 495, 10 minutes. The top corner edges were a bit burnt - just the absolute tip of the corner, so looking at it from the top as it sat in the pan, it looked a lot worse than it really was. Barely noticeable when eating. Second attempt I cooked at 475, and it was a little better.

edit -  I did make sure to use palm-based margarine, at least.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 06:53:42 PM by Charg »

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #655 on: November 02, 2013, 08:58:54 PM »
Charg,

Your second attempt at a PJ clone cookie looks good.  How did you like it?

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #656 on: November 02, 2013, 09:10:57 PM »
It was really good, the chocolate chips stood out more than the real cookie, Pete described a difference between 2 brands earlier that I had not considered to be a factor (tasting more chocolate vs sweetness). I used semi-sweet chips from Costco. For improvements I will try to match more exact ingredients to what you and Pete suggest, but for what I made I was quite pleased.

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #657 on: November 02, 2013, 09:24:22 PM »
It was really good, the chocolate chips stood out more than the real cookie, Pete described a difference between 2 brands earlier that I had not considered to be a factor (tasting more chocolate vs sweetness). I used semi-sweet chips from Costco. For improvements I will try to match more exact ingredients to what you and Pete suggest, but for what I made I was quite pleased.

Charg,

I am glad you thought your PJ clone cookies was really good.  I agree that the chocolate chips stand out more than a PJ cookie.  I have used two different types of chocolate chips and really can't tell the difference in the taste of the PJ clone cookie with either type of chocolate chips. 

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #658 on: November 03, 2013, 09:07:26 AM »
I agree that the chocolate chips stand out more than a PJ cookie.  I have used two different types of chocolate chips and really can't tell the difference in the taste of the PJ clone cookie with either type of chocolate chips. 
Norma,

As you know, PJ is using commodity/foodservice sources for its margarine and leavening, and most likely for the more prosaic ingredients like sugar, brown sugar, salt, flavorings and colorings. So, I would imagine that they are doing something along the same lines with the semi-sweet chocolate chips. Of all the ingredients used to make the PJ Mega Chocolate Chip Cookie, the most important ingredient in my opinion is the chocolate chips. The chocolate chips are at the heart of every chocolate chip cookie. But that doesn't mean that PJ is going to use chocolate chips from Scharffen Berger (now owned by Hershey), or Callebaut or Guittard or Jacques Torres. PJ's is not trying to make the ultimate chocolate chip cookie. They are just trying to add a novelty item to their pizza line.

I think the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips are a good choice for cloning purposes because they are readily available at retail and at a price that is not much more than the Nestle and Hershey semi-sweet chocolate chips. The Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips also come pretty close to meeting the PJ description of the chocolate chips they use. And Ghirardelli has a long heritage. It has been around for 161 years. Since we don't know where PJ is sourcing their chocolate chips, it is hard to conclude that the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips are superior to what PJ is using. But, if they are, that should be noticeable by the veteran chocolate chip cookie eater.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #659 on: November 03, 2013, 09:27:52 AM »
Norma,

As you know, PJ is using commodity/foodservice sources for its margarine and leavening, and most likely for the more prosaic ingredients like sugar, brown sugar, salt, flavorings and colorings. So, I would imagine that they are doing something along the same lines with the semi-sweet chocolate chips. Of all the ingredients used to make the PJ Mega Chocolate Chip Cookie, the most important ingredient in my opinion is the chocolate chips. The chocolate chips are at the heart of every chocolate chip cookie. But that doesn't mean that PJ is going to use chocolate chips from Scharffen Berger (now owned by Hershey), or Callebaut or Guittard or Jacques Torres. PJ's is not trying to make the ultimate chocolate chip cookie. They are just trying to add a novelty item to their pizza line.

I think the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips are a good choice for cloning purposes because they are readily available at retail and at a price that is not much more than the Nestle and Hershey semi-sweet chocolate chips. The Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips also come pretty close to meeting the PJ description of the chocolate chips they use. And Ghirardelli has a long heritage. It has been around for 161 years. Since we don't know where PJ is sourcing their chocolate chips, it is hard to conclude that the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips are superior to what PJ is using. But, if they are, that should be noticeable by the veteran chocolate chip cookie eater.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I do know that PJ is using commodity/foodservice sources for its margarine and leavening, and most likely for the prosaic ingredients like sugar, salt, flavorings and colorings.  I can understand why you would imagine they are doing something along the same lines with the semi-sweet chocolate chips. 

I see you recommend the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips are a good choice for cloning purposes.  161 to be around is long time.  I will purchase some more Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips after I finish the Nestle semi-sweet chocolate chips I purchased on sale yesterday.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #660 on: November 03, 2013, 09:47:46 AM »
I will purchase some more Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips after I finish the Nestle semi-sweet chocolate chips I purchased on sale yesterday.
Norma,

What you might do is set aside some of the Nestle semi-sweet chocolate chip morsels and do blind side-by-side taste tests with your family members with the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips. As with most things culinary in life, there are distinct taste preferences that have to be respected even if they can't be explained.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #661 on: November 03, 2013, 10:15:11 AM »
Norma,

What you might do is set aside some of the Nestle semi-sweet chocolate chip morsels and do blind side-by-side taste tests with your family members with the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips. As with most things culinary in life, there are distinct taste preferences that have to be respected even if they can't be explained.

Peter

Peter,

I still have some of the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips at home but not enough to make another cookie.  Do you want me to try a blind taste test with just the two brands of chocolate chips without them in a cookie?

I know everyone has their preferences in almost any kinds of foods.  If we would all be alike this would be a boring world.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #662 on: November 03, 2013, 10:45:11 AM »
Do you want me to try a blind taste test with just the two brands of chocolate chips without them in a cookie?
Norma,

Yes, that is what I was thinking. Even when there are differences, they can get easily lost at the cookie level because of the very high sugar and fat levels. Those two ingredients alone make up for about 68% of the total weight of a PJ cookie.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #663 on: November 03, 2013, 01:05:32 PM »
Norma,

Yes, that is what I was thinking. Even when there are differences, they can get easily lost at the cookie level because of the very high sugar and fat levels. Those two ingredients alone make up for about 68% of the total weight of a PJ cookie.

Peter

Peter,

When everyone is home at the same time I will do a blind taste test on the two brands of semi-sweet chocolate chips.  I might even take both brands of the semi-sweet chocolate to market to see what other people think.  68% is very high for sugar and fat levels in a PJ cookie.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #664 on: November 05, 2013, 09:26:47 PM »
Norma,

What you might do is set aside some of the Nestle semi-sweet chocolate chip morsels and do blind side-by-side taste tests with your family members with the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips. As with most things culinary in life, there are distinct taste preferences that have to be respected even if they can't be explained.

Peter

Peter,

Steve and I did a blind taste test with some customers and standholders that wanted to participate in comparing the Nestle semi-sweet chocolate chips to the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips.  This is what the tally sheet looked like.  The N was Nestle the U was undecided and the G was the Ghirardelli.  The Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips won, but not by much.  It was fun to hear peoples comments about why the semi-sweet chocolate chip brand they picked tasted better to them.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #665 on: November 05, 2013, 09:54:28 PM »
Norma,

Those are interesting results.

After my last post, I found the following Cook's Illustrated 2009 article on dark chocolate chips:

https://www.cooksillustrated.com/taste_tests/461-dark-chocolate-chips

If you click on the Ghirardelli and Nestlé names, you will see that the total cacao contents are similar but that the Nestlé chocolate chip morsels have more sugar. The Nestlé morsels also have less cocoa butter. That helps keep the shape of the morsels intact so that they don't spread much during baking. The taste testers in the CI test favored the chocolate chips with the higher cacao contents. PJ is not using chocolate chips with the higher cacao contents. For one thing, they would be too expensive.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #666 on: November 05, 2013, 10:33:19 PM »
Norma,

Those are interesting results.

After my last post, I found the following Cook's Illustrated 2009 article on dark chocolate chips:

https://www.cooksillustrated.com/taste_tests/461-dark-chocolate-chips

If you click on the Ghirardelli and Nestlé names, you will see that the total cacao contents are similar but that the Nestlé chocolate chip morsels have more sugar. The Nestlé morsels also have less cocoa butter. That helps keep the shape of the morsels intact so that they don't spread much during baking. The taste testers in the CI test favored the chocolate chips with the higher cacao contents. PJ is not using chocolate chips with the higher cacao contents. For one thing, they would be too expensive.

Peter

Peter,

The Cook's Illustrated article on dark chocolate chips is interesting. 

It seemed like most people today that liked a sweeter tasting semi-sweet chocolate chips picked the Nestle product.  I had to chuckle to myself when some people kept going back and forth to each brand before they finally decided which semi-sweet chocolate chip they liked the best.  Some of the people said they knew a good semi-sweet chocolate chip as soon as they tasted both and those people picked the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chip.

I really wonder though when either of those brands would be baked in a clone PJ cookie if then those same people could tell any differences.

Norma 


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #667 on: November 06, 2013, 08:53:10 AM »
I really wonder though when either of those brands would be baked in a clone PJ cookie if then those same people could tell any differences.
Norma,

There are some people whose palates are so well developed and discriminating when it comes to chocolate that they can tell differences even a finished product. In that vein, it is quite common for testers to test chocolate chips in cookies. An example of this is the Serious Eats test as described at http://sweets.seriouseats.com/2010/06/what-are-the-best-chocolate-chips-brands-for-baking-cookies.html. When price is no object, it should not come as a surprise to anyone that the taste testers will favor the more expensive brands. And they can detect them in the finished cookies even when there are competing ingredients and flavors like sugar, molasses, solid milk products, milkfat, butter flavor and vanilla (or vanillin).

I believe that PJ is using a commodity type chocolate chip, not a well known brand name. When I went looking for a chocolate chip product with the same description as the PJ chocolate chips, I could not find a retail chocolate chip product with the same ingredients statement. Later, I found it embedded in a Nestle refrigerated cookie dough at the Nestle professional website at http://www.nestleprofessional.com/united-states/en/BrandsAndProducts/Brands/NESTLE_TOLLHOUSE/Pages/11003897.aspx. No doubt Nestle makes a standalone chocolate chip morsel product but does not sell it at the retail level. The closest product I found at the retail level was the Kroger house brand of semi-sweet chocolate chips, with real vanilla, not artificial vanilla. But I am willing to bet that the Kroger product falls short somewhere on the cacao content side.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #668 on: November 06, 2013, 09:40:16 AM »
Norma,

There are some people whose palates are so well developed and discriminating when it comes to chocolate that they can tell differences even a finished product. In that vein, it is quite common for testers to test chocolate chips in cookies. An example of this is the Serious Eats test as described at http://sweets.seriouseats.com/2010/06/what-are-the-best-chocolate-chips-brands-for-baking-cookies.html. When price is no object, it should not come as a surprise to anyone that the taste testers will favor the more expensive brands. And they can detect them in the finished cookies even when there are competing ingredients and flavors like sugar, molasses, solid milk products, milkfat, butter flavor and vanilla (or vanillin).

I believe that PJ is using a commodity type chocolate chip, not a well known brand name. When I went looking for a chocolate chip product with the same description as the PJ chocolate chips, I could not find a retail chocolate chip product with the same ingredients statement. Later, I found it embedded in a Nestle refrigerated cookie dough at the Nestle professional website at http://www.nestleprofessional.com/united-states/en/BrandsAndProducts/Brands/NESTLE_TOLLHOUSE/Pages/11003897.aspx. No doubt Nestle makes a standalone chocolate chip morsel product but does not sell it at the retail level. The closest product I found at the retail level was the Kroger house brand of semi-sweet chocolate chips, with real vanilla, not artificial vanilla. But I am willing to bet that the Kroger product falls short somewhere on the cacao content side.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link about those chocolate chip cookie taste testers.  I also believe the recipe is important for a chocolate chip cookie.  I think your PJ clone cookie is the best I have ever tasted and I have tasted many chocolate chip cookies.  I did use you PJ clone dough recipe yesterday at market and had favorable comments about your PJ clone cookie.

I do believe that some people have very discriminating palates when it comes to any chocolate.

I find your comment interesting about Nestle making a standalone chocolate chip morsel product, but not selling it at the retail level.  I contacted Nestle if they do have a standalone chocolate chip morsel product like that.

I have to call C.O. Nolt & Son, Inc. to see what brand of semi-sweet chocolate chips they carry.

BTW, on another note I just saw that Papa John's was named the Official Pizza of the New York Yankees.  http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/article/222495/Papa-John-s-named-Official-Pizza-of-the-New-York-Yankees?goback=%2Egde_3615930_member_5803627233704685570#%21

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #669 on: November 08, 2013, 01:06:21 PM »

Margarine. For the margarine, I was able to only find one product that seems to come close to the margarine that PJ uses for its Mega Chocolate Chip Cookie. It is a new product from Walmart. In fact, it is so new that I wasn’t able to find anything on that product online, even on the Walmart website. The product itself contains palm oil and palm kernel and soybean oil and is also a 0 Trans Fat product. It contains 80% vegetable oil. The margarine is sold under the Great Value brand, in stick form, and the box shows a rolling pin with the words “Great for Baking” within the image of the rolling pin. Below the rolling pin are images of chocolate chip cookies. Better yet is the price of the GV margarine. In my local Walmart, the price is $1.36 for four sticks (one pound). There are other products that include palm oil and palm kernel, but the ones I saw in my local supermarkets were less than 80% vegetable oil.


Peter


Peter,

Yesterday the FDA announced that it intends to eventually eliminate all trans fats from all foods. When I heard the news, I thought about the relationship of trans fats to your discussion on PJ's cookie. In many of the news reports I saw/read, the reporter noted that the food industry was already working on (or has already created) substitutes for items that contain trans fats, such as partially hydrogenated oils (PHOs).

Trans fats are being eliminated because they provide no health benefit, while increasing bad cholesterol levels and decreasing good cholesterol levels. In 2006, the FDA began requiring food manufacturers to include trans fats on nutritional labels. (http://www.nbcnews.com/health/fda-wants-ban-trans-fats-food-8C11551559)

PHOs are included in foods over more naturally occurring fats because of taste, texture, and shelf life reasons (http://www.latimes.com/food/dailydish/la-dd-rise-and-fall-of-trans-fat-20131107,0,63247.story#axzz2k4rGUDKV)

Palm oil appears to be the food industry's substitute for PHOs. Since palm oil contains no trans fats, restaurateurs and grocers can label items derived from palm oil as containing zero trans fats. However, despite the seemingly healthier label, it appears palm oil is not an acceptable healthy substitute for PHOs, and causes the same adverse health affects as PHOs (http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2009/090415.htm).

This weekend I intend to make a chocolate chip cookie using an 8'' dark non-stick cake pan, unsalted butter, and volume measurements, as these are items readily available to most households, and the butter is a better form of fat than the palm oil. I think the 8'' dark cake pan will have a much bigger effect on the final product than the butter, and I am curious as to how I will need to compensate in other areas in order to get a good cookie. For starters, I may lower my oven temperature and increase my baking time, as I'm not sure PJ's high-temp ovens and short bake times provide an added benefit to the final product (other than convenience and economics for Papa John's, of course).

I am sure most of the information above is already known to you: I thought it best to get it posted for anyone reading. I am curious to hear your thoughts on this, although I know using butter and cake pans is a major deviation from PJ's methodology.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #670 on: November 08, 2013, 01:58:08 PM »
WarEagle09,

Norma asked me recently in a PM exchange about the role of trans fat in relation to the PJ cookie. The part of the PJ ingredients statement that I believe is the sticking point when it comes to trans fats is the margarine.

As I told Norma, I am pretty sure that the reason why companies are going to products like the palm-based margarines and blends is because of the 0 Trans Fats. However, it is important to keep in mind that the 0 Trans Fats are reported for single servings. Under FDA regulations, so long as the Trans Fats per serving is less than 0.5 grams, the Trans Fats number can be reported as 0. However, if one were to consume several servings, then the total Trans Fats could exceed 0.5 grams. But the FDA does not require that the Trans Fats be reported in such a case. So, food processors do whatever they need to do to keep the Trans Fats below 0.5 grams per serving. It used to be that Sat Fats were villainized but there were some Sat Fats that apparently weren't harmful and might even have been good fats. But the spotlight has moved from Sat Fats to Trans Fats. As you can see, there is even a lot of politics in the food industry, like it or not. My practice is to observe things in this arena but stay above the fray.

As far as what you want to do, I think you are safe in using butter in lieu of margarine, as is very common. With a cake pan, you may need to watch the progress of the bake and keep in mind that the cookie will continue to bake for a short time after it is removed from the oven.

In my opinion, there is not anything particularly novel about the PJ dough formulation when compared with other chocolate cookie dough recipes where the predominant ingredient is the chocolate chips. My goal was to try to match the types of ingredients that people can buy at their local supermarkets with the PJ Nutrition Facts. That appears to be a workable approach.

Peter

Offline Mullered

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #671 on: December 06, 2013, 10:39:30 AM »
Hi Pete

I currently have your original 5-7 day PJ clone dough fermenting in the fridge.  It looks like I'm going to have to break into it a day early ( 4 days ) as I'm not going to get chance to use it for the rest of the week as I'm busy. Do you think it will still turn out ok after 4 days?  Is there anything I can do to help it along like taking it out of the fridge for longer before I use it?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #672 on: December 06, 2013, 10:54:38 AM »
I currently have your original 5-7 day PJ clone dough fermenting in the fridge.  It looks like I'm going to have to break into it a day early ( 4 days ) as I'm not going to get chance to use it for the rest of the week as I'm busy. Do you think it will still turn out ok after 4 days?  Is there anything I can do to help it along like taking it out of the fridge for longer before I use it?
Mullered,

Four days is cutting it close. What you might try is leaving the dough temper longer at room temperature, just as you said. You might also be able to put the dough in a slightly warmed up oven for a brief period, or with the oven off but with the light on.

Good luck.

Peter

Offline Mullered

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #673 on: December 06, 2013, 10:58:55 AM »
What would be the main effects of using the dough early?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #674 on: December 06, 2013, 11:08:08 AM »
What would be the main effects of using the dough early?
Depending on your refrigerator and its temperature, the dough might be somewhat underfermented and, as a result, harder to open and might yield a somewhat denser and flatter crust. However, that said, in the U.S., the pizza makers at PJs do use dough balls after four days. But they may need to do more docking of the skin than usual.

Peter


 

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