Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 230886 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #660 on: November 03, 2013, 09:47:46 AM »
I will purchase some more Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips after I finish the Nestle semi-sweet chocolate chips I purchased on sale yesterday.
Norma,

What you might do is set aside some of the Nestle semi-sweet chocolate chip morsels and do blind side-by-side taste tests with your family members with the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips. As with most things culinary in life, there are distinct taste preferences that have to be respected even if they can't be explained.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #661 on: November 03, 2013, 10:15:11 AM »
Norma,

What you might do is set aside some of the Nestle semi-sweet chocolate chip morsels and do blind side-by-side taste tests with your family members with the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips. As with most things culinary in life, there are distinct taste preferences that have to be respected even if they can't be explained.

Peter

Peter,

I still have some of the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips at home but not enough to make another cookie.  Do you want me to try a blind taste test with just the two brands of chocolate chips without them in a cookie?

I know everyone has their preferences in almost any kinds of foods.  If we would all be alike this would be a boring world.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #662 on: November 03, 2013, 10:45:11 AM »
Do you want me to try a blind taste test with just the two brands of chocolate chips without them in a cookie?
Norma,

Yes, that is what I was thinking. Even when there are differences, they can get easily lost at the cookie level because of the very high sugar and fat levels. Those two ingredients alone make up for about 68% of the total weight of a PJ cookie.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #663 on: November 03, 2013, 01:05:32 PM »
Norma,

Yes, that is what I was thinking. Even when there are differences, they can get easily lost at the cookie level because of the very high sugar and fat levels. Those two ingredients alone make up for about 68% of the total weight of a PJ cookie.

Peter

Peter,

When everyone is home at the same time I will do a blind taste test on the two brands of semi-sweet chocolate chips.  I might even take both brands of the semi-sweet chocolate to market to see what other people think.  68% is very high for sugar and fat levels in a PJ cookie.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #664 on: November 05, 2013, 09:26:47 PM »
Norma,

What you might do is set aside some of the Nestle semi-sweet chocolate chip morsels and do blind side-by-side taste tests with your family members with the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips. As with most things culinary in life, there are distinct taste preferences that have to be respected even if they can't be explained.

Peter

Peter,

Steve and I did a blind taste test with some customers and standholders that wanted to participate in comparing the Nestle semi-sweet chocolate chips to the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips.  This is what the tally sheet looked like.  The N was Nestle the U was undecided and the G was the Ghirardelli.  The Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips won, but not by much.  It was fun to hear peoples comments about why the semi-sweet chocolate chip brand they picked tasted better to them.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #665 on: November 05, 2013, 09:54:28 PM »
Norma,

Those are interesting results.

After my last post, I found the following Cook's Illustrated 2009 article on dark chocolate chips:

https://www.cooksillustrated.com/taste_tests/461-dark-chocolate-chips

If you click on the Ghirardelli and Nestlé names, you will see that the total cacao contents are similar but that the Nestlé chocolate chip morsels have more sugar. The Nestlé morsels also have less cocoa butter. That helps keep the shape of the morsels intact so that they don't spread much during baking. The taste testers in the CI test favored the chocolate chips with the higher cacao contents. PJ is not using chocolate chips with the higher cacao contents. For one thing, they would be too expensive.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #666 on: November 05, 2013, 10:33:19 PM »
Norma,

Those are interesting results.

After my last post, I found the following Cook's Illustrated 2009 article on dark chocolate chips:

https://www.cooksillustrated.com/taste_tests/461-dark-chocolate-chips

If you click on the Ghirardelli and Nestlé names, you will see that the total cacao contents are similar but that the Nestlé chocolate chip morsels have more sugar. The Nestlé morsels also have less cocoa butter. That helps keep the shape of the morsels intact so that they don't spread much during baking. The taste testers in the CI test favored the chocolate chips with the higher cacao contents. PJ is not using chocolate chips with the higher cacao contents. For one thing, they would be too expensive.

Peter

Peter,

The Cook's Illustrated article on dark chocolate chips is interesting. 

It seemed like most people today that liked a sweeter tasting semi-sweet chocolate chips picked the Nestle product.  I had to chuckle to myself when some people kept going back and forth to each brand before they finally decided which semi-sweet chocolate chip they liked the best.  Some of the people said they knew a good semi-sweet chocolate chip as soon as they tasted both and those people picked the Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chip.

I really wonder though when either of those brands would be baked in a clone PJ cookie if then those same people could tell any differences.

Norma 
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #667 on: November 06, 2013, 08:53:10 AM »
I really wonder though when either of those brands would be baked in a clone PJ cookie if then those same people could tell any differences.
Norma,

There are some people whose palates are so well developed and discriminating when it comes to chocolate that they can tell differences even a finished product. In that vein, it is quite common for testers to test chocolate chips in cookies. An example of this is the Serious Eats test as described at http://sweets.seriouseats.com/2010/06/what-are-the-best-chocolate-chips-brands-for-baking-cookies.html. When price is no object, it should not come as a surprise to anyone that the taste testers will favor the more expensive brands. And they can detect them in the finished cookies even when there are competing ingredients and flavors like sugar, molasses, solid milk products, milkfat, butter flavor and vanilla (or vanillin).

I believe that PJ is using a commodity type chocolate chip, not a well known brand name. When I went looking for a chocolate chip product with the same description as the PJ chocolate chips, I could not find a retail chocolate chip product with the same ingredients statement. Later, I found it embedded in a Nestle refrigerated cookie dough at the Nestle professional website at http://www.nestleprofessional.com/united-states/en/BrandsAndProducts/Brands/NESTLE_TOLLHOUSE/Pages/11003897.aspx. No doubt Nestle makes a standalone chocolate chip morsel product but does not sell it at the retail level. The closest product I found at the retail level was the Kroger house brand of semi-sweet chocolate chips, with real vanilla, not artificial vanilla. But I am willing to bet that the Kroger product falls short somewhere on the cacao content side.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #668 on: November 06, 2013, 09:40:16 AM »
Norma,

There are some people whose palates are so well developed and discriminating when it comes to chocolate that they can tell differences even a finished product. In that vein, it is quite common for testers to test chocolate chips in cookies. An example of this is the Serious Eats test as described at http://sweets.seriouseats.com/2010/06/what-are-the-best-chocolate-chips-brands-for-baking-cookies.html. When price is no object, it should not come as a surprise to anyone that the taste testers will favor the more expensive brands. And they can detect them in the finished cookies even when there are competing ingredients and flavors like sugar, molasses, solid milk products, milkfat, butter flavor and vanilla (or vanillin).

I believe that PJ is using a commodity type chocolate chip, not a well known brand name. When I went looking for a chocolate chip product with the same description as the PJ chocolate chips, I could not find a retail chocolate chip product with the same ingredients statement. Later, I found it embedded in a Nestle refrigerated cookie dough at the Nestle professional website at http://www.nestleprofessional.com/united-states/en/BrandsAndProducts/Brands/NESTLE_TOLLHOUSE/Pages/11003897.aspx. No doubt Nestle makes a standalone chocolate chip morsel product but does not sell it at the retail level. The closest product I found at the retail level was the Kroger house brand of semi-sweet chocolate chips, with real vanilla, not artificial vanilla. But I am willing to bet that the Kroger product falls short somewhere on the cacao content side.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link about those chocolate chip cookie taste testers.  I also believe the recipe is important for a chocolate chip cookie.  I think your PJ clone cookie is the best I have ever tasted and I have tasted many chocolate chip cookies.  I did use you PJ clone dough recipe yesterday at market and had favorable comments about your PJ clone cookie.

I do believe that some people have very discriminating palates when it comes to any chocolate.

I find your comment interesting about Nestle making a standalone chocolate chip morsel product, but not selling it at the retail level.  I contacted Nestle if they do have a standalone chocolate chip morsel product like that.

I have to call C.O. Nolt & Son, Inc. to see what brand of semi-sweet chocolate chips they carry.

BTW, on another note I just saw that Papa John's was named the Official Pizza of the New York Yankees.  http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/article/222495/Papa-John-s-named-Official-Pizza-of-the-New-York-Yankees?goback=%2Egde_3615930_member_5803627233704685570#%21

Norma
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Offline WarEagle09

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #669 on: November 08, 2013, 01:06:21 PM »

Margarine. For the margarine, I was able to only find one product that seems to come close to the margarine that PJ uses for its Mega Chocolate Chip Cookie. It is a new product from Walmart. In fact, it is so new that I wasn’t able to find anything on that product online, even on the Walmart website. The product itself contains palm oil and palm kernel and soybean oil and is also a 0 Trans Fat product. It contains 80% vegetable oil. The margarine is sold under the Great Value brand, in stick form, and the box shows a rolling pin with the words “Great for Baking” within the image of the rolling pin. Below the rolling pin are images of chocolate chip cookies. Better yet is the price of the GV margarine. In my local Walmart, the price is $1.36 for four sticks (one pound). There are other products that include palm oil and palm kernel, but the ones I saw in my local supermarkets were less than 80% vegetable oil.


Peter


Peter,

Yesterday the FDA announced that it intends to eventually eliminate all trans fats from all foods. When I heard the news, I thought about the relationship of trans fats to your discussion on PJ's cookie. In many of the news reports I saw/read, the reporter noted that the food industry was already working on (or has already created) substitutes for items that contain trans fats, such as partially hydrogenated oils (PHOs).

Trans fats are being eliminated because they provide no health benefit, while increasing bad cholesterol levels and decreasing good cholesterol levels. In 2006, the FDA began requiring food manufacturers to include trans fats on nutritional labels. (http://www.nbcnews.com/health/fda-wants-ban-trans-fats-food-8C11551559)

PHOs are included in foods over more naturally occurring fats because of taste, texture, and shelf life reasons (http://www.latimes.com/food/dailydish/la-dd-rise-and-fall-of-trans-fat-20131107,0,63247.story#axzz2k4rGUDKV)

Palm oil appears to be the food industry's substitute for PHOs. Since palm oil contains no trans fats, restaurateurs and grocers can label items derived from palm oil as containing zero trans fats. However, despite the seemingly healthier label, it appears palm oil is not an acceptable healthy substitute for PHOs, and causes the same adverse health affects as PHOs (http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2009/090415.htm).

This weekend I intend to make a chocolate chip cookie using an 8'' dark non-stick cake pan, unsalted butter, and volume measurements, as these are items readily available to most households, and the butter is a better form of fat than the palm oil. I think the 8'' dark cake pan will have a much bigger effect on the final product than the butter, and I am curious as to how I will need to compensate in other areas in order to get a good cookie. For starters, I may lower my oven temperature and increase my baking time, as I'm not sure PJ's high-temp ovens and short bake times provide an added benefit to the final product (other than convenience and economics for Papa John's, of course).

I am sure most of the information above is already known to you: I thought it best to get it posted for anyone reading. I am curious to hear your thoughts on this, although I know using butter and cake pans is a major deviation from PJ's methodology.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #670 on: November 08, 2013, 01:58:08 PM »
WarEagle09,

Norma asked me recently in a PM exchange about the role of trans fat in relation to the PJ cookie. The part of the PJ ingredients statement that I believe is the sticking point when it comes to trans fats is the margarine.

As I told Norma, I am pretty sure that the reason why companies are going to products like the palm-based margarines and blends is because of the 0 Trans Fats. However, it is important to keep in mind that the 0 Trans Fats are reported for single servings. Under FDA regulations, so long as the Trans Fats per serving is less than 0.5 grams, the Trans Fats number can be reported as 0. However, if one were to consume several servings, then the total Trans Fats could exceed 0.5 grams. But the FDA does not require that the Trans Fats be reported in such a case. So, food processors do whatever they need to do to keep the Trans Fats below 0.5 grams per serving. It used to be that Sat Fats were villainized but there were some Sat Fats that apparently weren't harmful and might even have been good fats. But the spotlight has moved from Sat Fats to Trans Fats. As you can see, there is even a lot of politics in the food industry, like it or not. My practice is to observe things in this arena but stay above the fray.

As far as what you want to do, I think you are safe in using butter in lieu of margarine, as is very common. With a cake pan, you may need to watch the progress of the bake and keep in mind that the cookie will continue to bake for a short time after it is removed from the oven.

In my opinion, there is not anything particularly novel about the PJ dough formulation when compared with other chocolate cookie dough recipes where the predominant ingredient is the chocolate chips. My goal was to try to match the types of ingredients that people can buy at their local supermarkets with the PJ Nutrition Facts. That appears to be a workable approach.

Peter

Offline Mullered

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #671 on: December 06, 2013, 10:39:30 AM »
Hi Pete

I currently have your original 5-7 day PJ clone dough fermenting in the fridge.  It looks like I'm going to have to break into it a day early ( 4 days ) as I'm not going to get chance to use it for the rest of the week as I'm busy. Do you think it will still turn out ok after 4 days?  Is there anything I can do to help it along like taking it out of the fridge for longer before I use it?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #672 on: December 06, 2013, 10:54:38 AM »
I currently have your original 5-7 day PJ clone dough fermenting in the fridge.  It looks like I'm going to have to break into it a day early ( 4 days ) as I'm not going to get chance to use it for the rest of the week as I'm busy. Do you think it will still turn out ok after 4 days?  Is there anything I can do to help it along like taking it out of the fridge for longer before I use it?
Mullered,

Four days is cutting it close. What you might try is leaving the dough temper longer at room temperature, just as you said. You might also be able to put the dough in a slightly warmed up oven for a brief period, or with the oven off but with the light on.

Good luck.

Peter

Offline Mullered

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #673 on: December 06, 2013, 10:58:55 AM »
What would be the main effects of using the dough early?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #674 on: December 06, 2013, 11:08:08 AM »
What would be the main effects of using the dough early?
Depending on your refrigerator and its temperature, the dough might be somewhat underfermented and, as a result, harder to open and might yield a somewhat denser and flatter crust. However, that said, in the U.S., the pizza makers at PJs do use dough balls after four days. But they may need to do more docking of the skin than usual.

Peter

Offline Mullered

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #675 on: December 06, 2013, 11:31:46 AM »
Depending on your refrigerator and its temperature, the dough might be somewhat underfermented and, as a result, harder to open and might yield a somewhat denser and flatter crust. However, that said, in the U.S., the pizza makers at PJs do use dough balls after four days. But they may need to do more docking of the skin than usual.

Peter


Ah I see. I'm really looking for a lighter open texture so I think I'm going to see if I can fit it In a day later. I've had an issue with density with some earlier attempts however I was using some pretty inaccurate hard to read scales to measure my ingredients so the measurements were all over the place. This time I invested in some salter digital scales which seem to be very accurate based on my tests. I also used some super accurate micro scales which I use for my vitamin powders to measure the yeast down to the milligram. The last thing I want to do is ruin everything by under fermentation  ......... You have persuaded me, intentionally or not to wait a day longer ....... I'll post pics and a review when I'm done :)

Offline Dark Knight

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #676 on: December 10, 2013, 06:49:38 AM »
Pete its a wonderful pizza!

I tried it and results were very good. I am new to pizza making and want to make a crispy thin crust and also a light fluffy crust pizza.

I have been following you in this forum and your knowledge about ingredients is superb. Please guide me in making a crispy thin crust and also a light fluffy pizza.

Thanks,



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #677 on: December 10, 2013, 01:21:22 PM »
Pete its a wonderful pizza!

I tried it and results were very good. I am new to pizza making and want to make a crispy thin crust and also a light fluffy crust pizza.

I have been following you in this forum and your knowledge about ingredients is superb. Please guide me in making a crispy thin crust and also a light fluffy pizza.

Thanks,
Dark Knight,

I'm glad you liked your Papa John's clone pizza. Since you are in Pakistan, I wondered whether Papa John's has a store there. The answer is no, but they do have a store in your next door neighbor India (http://www.papajohns.com/international.shtm). So, maybe one day they will have a store in Pakistan also.

As for crispy thin crust pizzas and light and fluffy pizzas, you might consider posting in the Newbie Topics board where many more members are likely to see the post and offer suggestions for those two styles of pizzas. In that post, be sure to describe those two styles in detail so that you don't get recommendations that do not meet your needs. That is especially true of the "light fluffy pizza", which is a very broad description.

Peter
 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #678 on: December 14, 2013, 08:21:36 PM »
Mullered,

I thought that you would find this item to be of interest in respect of the use of the PJ dough balls at their stores: http://www.leagle.com/decision/200068080FSupp2d600_1624 . The litigation matter was some time ago, in 2000, but I have not seen anything to suggest that the PJ timeline for its dough has changed.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #679 on: December 14, 2013, 08:32:55 PM »

This has probably been posted about before on this thread of a pizza maker opening a dough ball at PJ's, but this was a video I took at Papa John's of a pizza maker opening a dough ball at Papa John's if anyone is interested.

   

The pizza maker at my local PJ's was very fast in opening a dough ball into a skin.

Norma
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