Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 229461 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2008, 04:40:36 PM »
Having recently satisfied myself that it is possible to make a credible Papa John’s clone pizza that very closely approximates a real Papa John’s pizza (in my case, a pepperoni pizza), I thought that it might be useful to make a PJ clone dough with a much shorter window of usability--around two days. That compares with a window of usability of around 3-8 days that I estimate PJ uses for its dough balls in its own stores. In addition to the shorter window of usability, the finished pizza would have to have most of the finished characteristics of a real PJ pizza. Otherwise, it would not be proper to consider it a clone.

To accomplish the above objectives, I modified the original dough clone formulation as set forth in Reply 2. The major functional change was to shorten the fermentation time. I did this primarily by using warmer water and an increased amount of yeast. In particular, I raised the water temperature from 55 degrees F to 65 degrees F and I doubled the yeast (IDY) from 0.14% to 0.28%. While I was at it, I also reduced the amount of sugar from 4.8% to 4.2%. This last change was to reduce the level of sweetness in the finished crust to more closely approximate the degree of sweetness of the crust of a real PJ pizza. The final dough formulation that I used, as produced using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, was as follows:

KA Bread Flour (100%):
Water (56.5%):
IDY (0.28%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (170.03%):
355.4 g  |  12.54 oz | 0.78 lbs
200.8 g  |  7.08 oz | 0.44 lbs
1 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
6.22 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
25.94 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.71 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
14.93 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.74 tsp | 1.25 tbsp
604.28 g | 21.32 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.13642; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; a pinch of ascorbic acid was also used as a dough ingredient.

As noted in the above table, I elected to use the King Arthur bread flour (KABF). This decision was made because I have been very satisfied with the results I have been getting using this flour to make PJ clone doughs. About the only thing I did to the flour was to sift it. This is my standard practice and was done to improve the hydration of the flour. For those who do not have a bowl sieve or a hand crank sieve, the sifting step can be omitted. I also used a pinch of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) as one of the dough ingredients. I used it for dough strengthening purposes and as a substitute for potassium bromate that is used in many commercial flours. For those who do not have any ascorbic acid on hand, or a Vitamin C tablet that can be ground to a powder, it can be omitted.

For those who do not have a scale but have a standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of flour specified in the above table, 12.54 ounces, converts to 2 c. + ½ c. + ⅓ c. + 1 7/8 t.  These volume measurements are based on using the “Textbook” method of measurement as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397 and also at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ (the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator). The 7.08 ounces of water in the above table converts to ¾ c. + 1 T. + approx. 2 t. The level of water in the measuring cup should be viewed at eye level with the cup on a flat surface.

The dough was prepared in essentially the same manner as described in Reply 2. Specifically, I started by placing the water, at 65 degrees F, into the mixer bowl of my standard KitchenAid stand mixer. I then added the salt, sugar and ascorbic acid (optional) and stirred to dissolve, about 1 minute. I then added the oil to the mixer bowl. With the flat paddle attachment secured, and the mixer at stir speed, I gradually added the sifted KABF to the bowl. I did this until all of the flour was roughly incorporated and the dough pulled away from the sides of the bowl and collected around the paddle attachment, about a minute or two. I then scraped the dough off of the paddle attachment (it was shaggy and on the sticky side) and replaced the paddle attachment with the C-hook and kneaded the dough mass, at stir speed, for about 1-2 minutes, to allow the oil to be more completely incorporated into the dough mass. The final ingredient, the IDY, was then sprinkled over the dough mass, and the dough was kneaded at speed 2 for about 5-6 minutes. At the end of that time, the dough was sticky and soft. However, with an additional minute of hand kneading, and without adding any additional bench flour, that stickiness disappeared and the dough was smooth and soft and supple. It was a very nicely formed dough.

The finished dough weight was a bit over 21 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 81.3 degrees F. That finished dough temperature was just about right to allow fermentation to commence, and well within the desired range of 80-85 degrees F. The finished dough ball was lightly oiled (using soybean oil) and placed in a lightly oiled one-quart Pyrex glass bowl (*Note: See the 3/31/14 EDIT below). That bowl went into the refrigerator, without its cover, for about 15 minutes, to allow the dough ball to dry out a bit. I then attached the cover to the bowl. As noted previously, the cover for the bowl has a small opening to allow gasses of fermentation to escape while retaining the moisture of condensation.

The dough remained in the refrigerator for 52 hours, or a few hours past two days. During that time, the dough ball just about doubled in volume. I estimate that the dough could have held out for about another day or so. When I was ready to use the dough, I placed it on a work surface along with my clone version of the PJ Dustinator flour mixture of semolina flour, white flour and soybean oil. I coated the exposed surfaces of the dough ball with the Dustinator clone and let the dough sit, uncovered, at room temperature (around 78 degrees F) for about 1 ½ hours. I then formed and shaped the dough into a 14” skin. I did this in the same general manner as shown in the YouTube videos referenced in Reply 1 and as I also observed the crew members at my local PJ store do it. The dough was a bit on the extensible side but it handled beautifully.

After placing the 14” skin on a 14” pizza screen, it was then dressed to make a pepperoni pizza. For the sauce, I used the Wal-Mart PJ sauce clone as described in Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg59208.html#msg59208. The sauce was spread over the skin to about 1 ½” of the edge. It weighed 5.3 ounces (about 5 fluid ounces). The cheese was a diced combination of Wal-Mart whole milk mozzarella cheese and Best Choice low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese. This is a combination of cheese types that was suggested by member November at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6749.msg58171.html#msg58171 as being his best estimate of the apportionment (2/3 whole milk mozzarella cheese and 1/3 low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese) of the two types of cheeses. In my case, I used a total weight of 9 ounces of the blended cheeses. The cheeses were comminuted to dice form by using my food processor, which worked beautifully for this purpose. When spreading the cheeses over the pizza, I was sure to spread some of the cheeses over the rim of the pizza. This is the method used by PJ’s in its stores and helps to create the signature appearance of its pizzas.

The pepperoni slices (a total of 44 Hormel slices) were spread edge to edge over the pizza. Before placing the pepperoni slices on the pizza, I had placed them between sheets of paper towels and pressed them together to reduce the amount of fat in the slices so that oiling of the slices on the pizza would be reduced. The total weight of the pepperoni slices was 2.8 ounces (80 grams). The total assembled pizza weighed 1089 grams, or 38.41 ounces.

The pizza was baked, on the 14” pizza screen, on the lowest oven rack position, at about 500 degrees F, for about 8-9 minutes. When the pizza was done, I weighed it to see how much weight was loss during baking. The finished pizza weighed 1004 grams, or 35.41 ounces. This represented a loss of about 3 ounces, or 7.8%. That was within the range of losses I experienced with earlier PJ clone pizzas.

The photos below show the finished pizza.

I was extremely pleased with the way the pizza turned out. The crust was a little thicker than a standard PJ pizza crust, but only slightly, and the pizza exhibited most of the characteristics of a standard PJ pizza. The size, shape, and weight were very close to a standard PJ pizza, and even its appearance was quite close, mainly because of the cheese on the rim and the overall coloration of the rim. The crust was chewy and the crumb was soft and tender. The level of sweetness of the crust was closer to the original than I have achieved before. Even the leftover slices were delicious. Unfortunately, I did not have a real PJ pizza on hand to do a more careful comparison, but based on memory, the latest pizza was a good approximation of a real PJ pizza. I would even rate it as highly as the first successful PJ clone pizza described and shown in Reply 2. And the best part is that the dough can be made and used in a two-day period.

My next goal, maybe an overly ambitious one, is to make a credible same-day PJ clone pizza.

Peter

EDIT (3/31/14): Once the dough ball has been formed and placed in its storage container, one can use the poppy seed trick as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html to monitor the volume expansion of the dough during the course of its fermentation.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2014, 11:51:02 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline sourdough girl

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2008, 07:58:10 PM »
WOW, Pete-zza,
Looks perfect, right down to the garlic sauce and pepperoncini!  Good job!

~sd
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2008, 08:43:00 PM »
sourdough girl,

Thank you.

The Special Garlic Sauce is actually quite tasty. In my reading, people often ask how to replicate it. For those who are interested, the ingredients are as follows:

Garlic Sauce: Liquid and Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Water, Salt, Garlic*, Vegetable Mono & Diglycerides, Soy Lecithin, Natural Garlic Flavor, Artificial Flavor [butter], Sodium Benzoate (a preservative), Lactic Acid, Calcium Disodium EDTA added to protect flavor, Beta Carotene (Color).

Many of the ingredients looked familiar to me. For example, the items underlined above are commonly found in soft margarines. Some brands even have the same preservatives or equivalent ones. It might be possible to replicate the Special Garlic Sauce by adding some butter (or imitation butter flavor or possibly some "butter buds"), garlic powder and fresh garlic (finely pureed) to such a basic soft margarine (e.g., Imperial or Parkay soft). It may also be necessary to add some soybean oil to thin out the margarine, depending on the brand.

As far as the pepperoncini are concerned, you may find it interesting that Papa John's once claimed that it used 60% of all of the pepperoncini peppers grown worldwide.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 01:33:00 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline sourdough girl

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2008, 09:46:44 PM »
The Special Garlic Sauce is actually quite tasty.
peter

I agree and it was the main reason that we continued for so long to order PJ's pizzas even though we found them too sweet... we once ordered the thinner crust and were sorry to see that there was no garlic sauce included... so have never done that again!  Thanks for your "recipe" for it... I may try to replicate it for my homemade breadsticks!

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2008, 10:58:03 AM »
In Reply 20, I stated a goal of making a credible same-day Papa John’s clone pizza. This has always been my ultimate goal. As previously discussed, I tried on several occasions to make a same day PJ clone pizza. These clones were based on using standard techniques such as the poolish method and using a lot of yeast, very warm water, and a long room-temperature fermentation. It turned out that the methods I used were a huge success, but the pizza crusts themselves, while tasty, were too puffy and breadlike and, hence, poor imitations of a real PJ pizza. Any same-day clone pizza that I would recommend would have to bear most of the attributes of a real Papa John’s pizza.

For my most recent effort, I decided to abandon my previous methods and to try a different one. More specifically, I decided to use very small amounts of yeast (0.10% IDY), water at normal temperature (around 73 degrees F), and a long, room-temperature fermentation (a total of about 8 hours). To allow the dough to ferment efficiently while still using a small amount of yeast, I increased the hydration from 56.5% to 58% and I reduced the amount of salt from 1.75% to 1.5%. As before, I used the King Arthur bread flour (KABF). This time, however, I sifted the flour. (If one does not have a bowl sieve or hand crank sifter, the sifting step can be omitted.) I did not use any ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) this time (although it can be used if desired), and, as before, I used a bowl residue compensation factor of 1.5%. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I ended up with the following same-day PJ clone dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (58%):
IDY (0.10%):
Salt (1.50%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (171.1%):
369.99 g  |  13.05 oz | 0.82 lbs
214.6 g  |  7.57 oz | 0.47 lbs
0.37 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.12 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
5.55 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
27.01 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.95 tsp | 1.98 tbsp
15.54 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.9 tsp | 1.3 tbsp
633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.142915; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%.

For those who do not have a scale but have a standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of flour from the above table, 13.05 ounces, translates volumetrically to 2 c. + ½ c. + 1/3 c. +2 T. + 1 3/4 t. This conversion to volume measurements is based on using the “Textbook” method of volume measurement as defined in Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The conversion itself was done using the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/.

The amount of formula water from the above table, 7.57 ounces, converts to between ¾ and 7/8 cup on a volume basis. The water in the measuring cup should be viewed at eye level with the measuring cup on a flat surface.

The dough preparation was quite straightforward. I started by putting the formula water, at around 73 degrees F, into the mixer bowl of my standard KitchenAid stand mixer. I then added the salt and sugar and stirred to dissolve, about 1 minute. Next, I added the IDY and stirred to dissolve, about 30 seconds. Normally, I would have added the IDY to the flour, but because the amount of IDY was so small (about 1/8 t.) in relation to the amount of flour, I decided to add it to the water where it would be more uniformly dispersed than if I tried to stir it uniformly into the flour.

I then added the oil to the mixer bowl. With the flat paddle attachment secured, and with the mixer operating at stir speed, I gradually added the KABF to the mixer bowl. Once all of the flour was taken up by the dough and the dough cleared the sides of the mixer bowl, about 1-2 minutes, I stopped the mixer, cleared the dough off of the paddle attachment (the dough was shaggy and quite wet and sticky at this point), and switched to the C-hook. I then kneaded the dough at speed 2 for about 5-6 minutes. The dough at this point was still on the wet and sticky side but after hand kneading it for about 1 minute, without using any bench flour, the dough became drier and formed easily into a nice, smooth, malleable round dough ball. The finished dough weight was 21.90 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 83 degrees F—well within the 80-85 degrees F range I was striving for.

Since I did not have a good idea as to how fast the dough would rise in my kitchen this time of year, after placing the dough ball (lightly oiled with soybean oil) into its container--a 1-qt. Pyrex glass bowl--I used a neat trick given to me by member November to determine and track the degree of rise of my dough ball. This method is discussed in detail at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. In line with that method, I placed two poppy seeds, spaced 1” apart, at the middle of my dough ball. I then loosely covered the bowl with a plastic shower cap with an elastic band (a sheet of plastic wrap loosely secured to the container can also be used). As it turned out, the dough rose fairly quickly. When the spacing between the two poppy seeds reached a bit over 1 ¼”, signifying that the dough ball had doubled in volume, I removed the poppy seeds, punched the dough down, and reshaped it again into a ball. The elapsed time at this point was about 5 ½ hours (at a room temperature of around 79 degrees F). I put two more poppy seeds, spaced 1” apart, on the reshaped dough ball, covered the bowl again, and let the dough rise again. It took about another 2 hours for the dough to double again (when the spacing of the two poppy seeds was about 1 ¼”). This time, I did not re-knead the dough ball again. I just gently pressed the dough ball down as I would any dough ball in preparation for using it to make a dough skin. The dough at this point was quite gassy (with a lot of bubbles) and soft.

I had no problem whatsoever in shaping and stretching the dough ball into a 14” skin. The dough was quite extensible but very easy to work with. As with my previous clone efforts, I used my clone “Dustinator” flour blend of semolina flour, white flour and soybean oil to coat the outer surfaces of the dough ball in preparation for forming it into a skin. Once stretched out to 14”, the dough skin was placed on a 14” pizza screen. To be sure that the rim wouldn’t become too large when baked, I made sure to press the outer edges of the skin down to flatten it as much as I could.

For the latest pizza, I decided on a combination of pepperoni and mushrooms. For the sauce, I used the sauce formulation as described at Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg59208.html#msg59208. I used just under 5 ounces of the sauce, by weight. For cheeses, I used a blend of 2/3 whole milk mozzarella (Wal-Mart brand) and 1/3 low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella (Best Choice brand), by weight, or about 9 ounces total weight in my case. The cheeses were comminuted to diced form using my Cuisinart food processor, as previously described. The mushrooms were a combination of lightly sautéed and uncooked mushroom slices. The pepperoni constituted 22 Hormel pepperoni slices. To reduce the amount of fat in the pepperoni slices, I had placed them between sheets of paper towels, which were then pressed together to absorb some of the fat. This is a method that has worked out very well for me.

From what I have read, Papa John’s places vegetables on top of the sauce before putting down the cheese and meat toppings like pepperoni. I decided instead to place part of the cheese blend on the sauce, then the sautéed mushrooms, the rest of the cheese blend, the pepperoni slices, and finally the raw mushroom slices. I was sure to put some of the cheese blend on the rim of the skin so that it would create the signature appearance of a real PJ pizza. The total weight of the unbaked pizza was around 40.3 ounces. The pizza so dressed was baked, on the 14” screen, on the lowest oven rack position, at around 500 degrees F, for about 10-11 minutes. The weight of the baked pizza was around 37.2 ounces. This represented a loss during baking of about 7.8%.

The photos below show the finished pizza.

The finished pizza greatly exceeded my expectations. It looked in just about all material respects like a real Papa John’s pizza--with similar dimensions and weigh. Moreover, the rim was not oversized or breadlike and it was chewy yet soft and tender in the crumb, with a detectible sweetness, which are classic attributes of a real Papa John’s pizza. The slices had the “look and feel” of real Papa John’s slices.

I am hard pressed at this point to suggest improvements to make a better same-day PJ clone pizza. However, in a future effort, I might try using less yeast, say, 1/16 t., and shoot for only a single rise in the dough of at least 8 hours and preferably longer (for flavor enhancement). That way, one would not have to be present to punch down the dough ball. I would definitely use the “poppy seed trick” to track the rise of the dough. Using that method takes a lot of the guesswork out of trying to tell when a dough ball has doubled in volume or reached any other level of expansion.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:46:46 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2008, 11:00:58 AM »
And, since I think "in the box"...


Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2008, 03:39:46 PM »
Excellent pizza, Peter!!!

I'll take a large to go! ;D
Let them eat pizza.

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2008, 02:57:28 PM »
Mad_Ernie,

Thanks for the compliment.

Out of curiosity, after you posted, I wondered what it cost me to make a large (14") pepperoni PJ clone pizza, based on what I paid for the ingredients to make the pizza. Just in food costs, it was around $6.35. For the mushroom/pepperoni pizza, the total food costs were around $6.85. Both figures reflect the increasing costs of flour (KABF is selling in the stores near me for $5.49 for a 5-lb. bag) and mozzarella cheese (even the house brands of mozzarella cheese are selling for over $4/lb.)

FYI, the mushroom/pepperoni pizza I made weighed almost 38 ounces, or 2 3/8 lb., when it came out of the oven. That translates to between 1/4 lb. and 1/3 lb. per slice (based on 8 slices). So, at around $6.85 for the pizza, it is still a relative bargain.

If I am willing to use a PJ coupon and drive to the closest PJ store on "Customer Appreciation Day" (the next one is July 26th), and only on that day, I can get a large PJ pepperoni pizza for $6.99, plus tax (and the cost of gasoline for the round trip). That price also includes a mini-tub of Special Garlic Sauce, a pepperoncini pepper, and a pizza box. PJ seems to do this deal every month toward the end of the month. The last time I bought a 14" PJ pepperoni pizza at regular price, without any coupon, I believe the total cost was something around $11. To that, I would have to add gasoline costs for the round trip (or even more if I use the current IRS mileage reimbursement numbers).

Peter
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 03:28:46 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2008, 06:56:51 AM »
Hi everyone! I am following this site for a long time and thanx to all who shared their experiences and knowledge until now. I have learned a lot things in here and trying to read posts as much as I can but unfortunately, did not find time to write before. :(

Pete-zza, I know that you are very skillful and experienced person in making pizzas. Therefore, after I read your PJ Clone Pizza recipe I decided to ask you a question.  ::) I live in Turkiye and I love eating and making pizza. Hopefully, one day I will open my own pizza store but until that day I have to study a lot. There is no Papa John's in here so, I do not know how their pizzas' taste and charteristics of the crust but I guess it is similar to Dominos. May be more sweet and lighter crust. My question is, don't you think that the oil %7.3 in your clone recipe is too much? I tried many recipes from this site both neapolitan style with/without sourdough or american style and developed my own dough recipes but I never use such a big amount oil generally I use between %1-3 as Lehmann offers. So, I am very interested with your PJ clone recipe and want to learn why you prefer to use too much oil? ???

P.S. I tried your first formulation with oil around %2.8 and sugar %3.4 using 72 hours cold fermantation and the result was fantastic.

Hope to hear from you soon!

Respectfully,
Salcaa aka Onur  :chef:
I belive one day I will open my pizza store...

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2008, 09:22:43 AM »
salchaa,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I was wondering when someone might ask me how I came up with the amounts of oil, and sugar, to use in the PJ clone dough.

In the United States, an "American" style pizza uses a lot of fat (oil) and sugar in the dough. It is this combination that gives the crumb of the finished crust its soft and tender characteristic. Some might even describe the crumb as being on the "gummy" side or maybe a bit "pasty". But that is what it is. If I were to dramatically reduce the amount of oil in the dough, as you did, the finished pizza would no longer be an American style pizza. Because an American style pizza has a fairly thick crust, the finished pizza would be closer to a medium-to-thick NY style. We once had a member who worked in a pizzeria in upper New York state who said that such a pizza would be what he essentially called a "Buffalo New York NY style" pizza. But, whatever the style, it would not be an American style. It's been a long time since I last had a Domino's pizza, and I perhaps should give one a try again if only to compare it with a Papa John's pizza or clone, but if you look at the ingredients list for a hand tossed Domino's dough at http://www.dominos.com/home/menu/dominos_nutrition.pdf, you will see that the ingredients list is similar to Papa John's and includes fair amounts of both oil and sugar. So, your comparison of a Papa John's pizza with a Domino's pizza is perhaps not far off the mark.

To determine the amount of oil to use in the PJ clone doughs, I analyzed the nutrition information given by Papa John's at its website (at http://www.papajohns.com/menu/index.htm), along with the list of ingredients I obtained from Papa John's (as previously discussed), and general nutrition data given at the nutrition website http://www.nutritiondata.com/. Analyzing nutrition information is not an area where I have specific training or particular expertise, and the process was made somewhat more complicated because I was not using the identical ingredients used by Papa John's to make its pizzas, but what I basically tried to do is to determine how much fat was in the different ingredients that I believe Papa John's uses to make its pizzas. For example, there is fat/oil in the pizza sauce, the cheese(s), and the pepperoni slices. All fat/oil beyond those sources would be in the dough used to make the pizzas. From my analysis, I arrived at a fat content, in the form of oil (specifically, soybean oil), of over 7%. When I found that I could not tell the difference between my original 5-day crust (the first clone in this thread) and the crust of a real Papa John's pizza, I saw no need to experiment further with other possible/workable values of oil. FYI, I went through a similar analysis with the sugar content, except that I ended up adjusting the value to the point where I could detect sweetness in the finished crust on my palate. As it turns out, the levels of sugar were below the threshhold value (about 5%) where the sugar would exert an osmotic effect on the yeast and degrade yeast performance. Someone else with different or more discerning taste receptors than mine might find that they need to use different amounts of sugar. 

In your case, you should, of course, experiment with different values of oil--and sugar as well. That is what this forum is all about. In general, I think that you may find that there are a lot of combinations of oil and sugar that will work and produce satisfying results so long as you carefully adhere to the dough formulations and procedures I described. There was a purpose and reason for everything I did. In my case, as I previously emphasized, I was attempting to come up with a clone that is as close as possible to a real PJ"s pizza, not to improve upon it. Where I perhaps did make a contribution that some might consider to be meaningful is developing dough formulations that can be used to make credible PJ clone pizzas in the same day or within a couple of days, as opposed to the 3-8 days that I believe PJ's uses for the pizzas made in its stores. One of these days, I may try to come up with a one-day, cold-ferment version just to complete the picture. With over 3000 stores and eleven Quality Control Centers in the U.S dedicated to making dough balls for those stores, Papa John's is stuck with its 3-8 day business model. You aren't.

Peter

EDIT (4/20/14): For a Wayback Machine link to the Domino's pdf document (2008) above, see http://web.archive.org/web/20090206032640/http://dominos.com/home/menu/dominos_nutrition.pdf


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2008, 03:02:32 PM »
In Reply 24 of this thread, I raised the possibility of making a same-day PJ clone dough with a long room-temperature fermentation. I was targeting a period of more than 8 hours with only a single rise of the dough. The longer rise time would contribute more to the final crust texture and flavors and also make it unnecessary for someone to be present to punch the dough down over the fermentation period. That way, one could start the dough in the morning, for example, before going to work, and make the pizza later that day. Or make the dough at night to be used the next day.

Between Reply 24 and this post, I experimented with different combinations of yeast quantity and water temperature to try to achieve the above goal. The room temperature was fixed at around 80 degrees F. I discovered the powerful effects of room temperature on the rise of the dough, even with very small amounts of yeast—as little as 1/16 teaspoon (IDY). Finally, I came up with a combination that allowed the dough to reach 12 hours with a single rise. To do this, I used 1/32 teaspoon of IDY (0.025% by weight of flour) and a water temperature of 65 degrees F. The room temperature was around 81 degrees F.

To give readers an idea of how little 1/32 teaspoon of IDY really is, a one-pound bag of IDY would be enough to make over 5000 pizzas at the rate of usage of 1/32 teaspoon IDY per pizza. For those who have a set of mini measuring spoons such as shown at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264, 1/32 teaspoon is a “smidgen”.  For those who do not have a set of mini spoons, the best way to get 1/32 teaspoon of yeast is to measure out 1/8 teaspoon of the yeast, divide that amount into four little equal “piles”, and use one of those little “piles”.

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html top come up with the following final dough formulation to use:

King Arthur Bread Flour-sifted (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.025%):
Salt (1.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.2%):
Sugar (4.0%):
Total (168.725%):
375.2 g  |  13.23 oz | 0.83 lbs
210.11 g  |  7.41 oz | 0.46 lbs
0.09 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.03 tsp | 0.01 tbsp
5.63 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
27.01 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.95 tsp | 1.98 tbsp
15.01 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.76 tsp | 1.25 tbsp
633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.142915; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%.

For those who do not have a scale, the amount of flour in the above table, 13.23 ounces, converts to 3 c. + 7/8 t. These volume measurements are based on using the “Textbook” method of flour measurement as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The actual conversions were made using member November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. The 7.41 ounces of water in the above table converts to a bit over 7/8 c. The level of the water in the measuring cup should be viewed at eye level with the measuring cup on a flat surface.

The dough was prepared in exactly the same manner as described in Reply 24. The only differences were the ones noted above plus a few minor changes I made to the dough formulation itself. The finished dough weight was 21.90 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 80.1 degrees F.

To monitor the progress of the dough during the rise (fermentation) period, I used the “poppy seed trick” as previously described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. I placed two poppy seeds one inch apart on the middle of the top of the dough ball and periodically measured the increase in the spacing between the two poppy seeds. It took a bit over 10 hours for the dough to increase by 50%, and almost exactly 12 hours to double. At the doubling point, the spacing between the two poppy seeds was a tad over 1 1/4 “ (1.26” x 1.26” x 1.26” = 2.00). Once the dough had doubled, I used it to make a pizza.

I prepared the dough to make the pizza in the same way as previously described, using my Dustinator “clone” flour blend (semolina flour, white flour and soybean oil) and spreading the dough ball out to 14” to fit my 14” pizza screen. I had no problems whatsoever in doing this.

To dress the pizza, I decided to make my version of Papa John’s “Chicken Bacon Ranch Pizza” (for official PJ photo, see http://www.papajohns.com/menu/pza_ckn_bacon_ranch.shtm). This is a PJ specialty pizza that is based on using a garlic ranch sauce, seasoned white chicken pieces, bacon, onions, Roma tomatoes, and mozzarella cheese. My assembly no doubt differed from what PJ’s uses but I used the following items and sequence to dress my pizza: Ranch sauce (Ken’s brand of Buttermilk Ranch Dressing, about 2 oz. by weight); several cloves of roasted garlic; one half of the mozzarella cheese (Best Choice low-moisture, part-skim, diced in my food processor); pieces of white chicken breasts (about 5 oz.) grilled in butter (until only a little pink remained in the center), and seasoned with garlic powder, onion powder and Wyler’s chicken, garlic and herb seasoning; sliced sweet onion; pieces of partially-cooked smoked bacon slices (about 3 slices cut into one-inch pieces); the rest of the mozzarella cheese (diced); and sweet, sliced, pre-drained tomatoes (Campari). The dressed pizza weighed a bit over 47 ounces. The total weight of mozzarella cheese was about 9 ounces.

The pizza was baked, on the 14” pizza screen, at the lowest oven rack position, at about 500 degrees F, for about 7 minutes, or until the bottom of the crust was the typical color of an authentic PJ pizza. Because I was using a conventional home oven and not a commercial air impingement oven that applies significant top heat (as it does in a PJ store), I moved the pizza off of the pizza screen (which I then removed from the oven) to the topmost oven rack position, where the pizza baked for about another two minutes. That allowed the toppings and cheese to bake more completely, and to provide more top crust browning. The photos below show the finished pizza. Upon removing the pizza from the oven, I weighed it. It weighed almost 43 ounces. This was a loss of weight during baking of about 10%. This was expected since I moved the pizza to a higher oven position where it was exposed to substantial top heat.

The pizza itself was delicious. The crust had many of the crust attributes and characteristics of a real PJ crust but I did not have a real PJ Chicken Bacon Ranch Pizza against which to compare my version of that pizza. But I was very happy with my results nonetheless. The crust had a nice texture and flavor and with the characteristic (but not overbearing) sweetness of the PJ crust. The reheated slices were also excellent. About the only changes I would contemplate for a future effort is to use a bit more Ranch dressing and a few more tomato slices--the sweeter the better.

There are a few points that one should keep in mind about the same-day clone dough that I made. The particular combination of yeast quantity, water temperature and room temperature I used are unique to this time of year. As the weather changes, and especially when cooler weather is upon us, the combination will have to be altered—as by using more yeast and warmer water (in relation to the prevailing room temperature). For those who wish to modify the process this time of year, the fermentation time can be altered to increase it (by using less yeast and/or cooler water) or decrease it (by using more yeast and/or warmer water). For example, if I want to make a 24-hour dough, I might use 1/64 teaspoon of IDY (although I haven’t actually tried it). But, whatever fermentation period is selected, I believe that using the poppy seed trick is a very valuable tool for monitoring the rise of the dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:45:17 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2008, 08:32:30 AM »
To date, I have made and reported on the following PJ clone doughs/pizzas under this thread:

1) Five-day dough, cold fermented, pepperoni: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197 (Reply 2)
2) Two-day dough, cold fermented, pepperoni: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217 (Reply 20)
3) Same day dough (8 hours, with intermediate punch down), room-temperature fermented, pepperoni/mushroom: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59357.html#msg59357 (Reply 24)
4) Same day dough (12 hours, with no intermediate punch down), room-temperature fermented, Chicken Bacon Ranch: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59762.html#msg59762 (Reply 30)

To expand the above collection, I thought that it might be useful to make a one-day (24-hour) cold-fermented PJ clone dough. For this purpose, I came up with the following PJ clone dough formulation, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

King Arthur Bread Flour-sifted (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (169.4%):
373.7 g  |  13.18 oz | 0.82 lbs
209.27 g  |  7.38 oz | 0.46 lbs
1.49 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
5.61 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
27.28 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.01 tsp | 2 tbsp
15.7 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.94 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.142915; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

The major change in the above formulation was the amount of yeast—0.40% IDY (about a half teaspoon). Also, the water temperature was selected not only to result in a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F but also to control the rate of fermentation. For this purpose, I used a water temperature of 65 degrees F. As before, I used sifted King Arthur bread flour. As noted in the above table, I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough.

For those who do not have a scale but have a standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of flour specified in the above table, 13.18 ounces, converts to 3 c. + 1/4 t. These volume measurements are based on using the “Textbook” method of measurement as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The 7.38 ounces of water in the above table converts to 1/2 c. + 1/3 c. + approx. 2 1/2 t. The level of water in the measuring cup(s) should be viewed at eye level with the cup(s) on a flat surface.

To prepare the dough, I started by combining the yeast (IDY) with the KABF (sifted) in a bowl. I then added the water, at 65 degrees F, to the mixer bowl of my KitchenAid stand mixer, followed by the sugar and salt, which were stirred to dissolve, about 30 seconds. The oil was then added to the mixer bowl. Using the flat beater of my mixer, and with the mixer operating at stir speed, I gradually added the flour/IDY mixture to the mixer bowl. The contents of the mixer bowl were mixed until the flour had been taken up by the dough and the dough pulled away from the sides of the bowl and aggregated as a rough dough mass around the flat beater, about 1-2 minutes. The dough mass at this stage was shaggy and on the wet and sticky side. After thoroughly removing the dough mass from the flat beater, the flat beater was replaced by the C-hook. The dough mass was then kneaded at speed 2 for about 5-6 minutes. At the end of this time, the dough was still on the wet and sticky side but after removing the dough ball from the C-hook and kneading it by hand for about 30 seconds, the dough became dryer and smooth and supple. No bench flour was needed. After coating the dough ball with a bit of vegetable oil (soybean oil), I placed it in a one-quart glass Pyrex bowl.

Using the previously described “poppy seed trick” (for details, see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html), I then placed two poppy seeds at the center of the dough ball spaced apart by 1”. As before, the purpose of the poppy seed trick was to monitor the rise of the dough during the course of its fermentation by watching the change in spacing between the two poppy seeds as the dough expanded. The bowl with the dough in it was then covered and placed in the refrigerator. The finished dough weight at this point was 22.3 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was about 79 degrees F.

The dough remained in the refrigerator for exactly 24 hours. At this point, the spacing between the two poppy seeds—about 1 ¼”—indicated that the dough ball had just about doubled in volume during the time of its cold fermentation. This was my objective from the outset, and it appears that the steps taken to achieve that objective were pretty much on the mark. Even if I was off, I could have simply watched the spacing of the poppy seeds to know when the dough had doubled. The dough was then allowed to warm up at room temperature of about 80 degrees F for about 1 ½ hours. While it was warming up, I made my “Dustinator” clone flour blend of semolina flour, white flour and soybean oil, and coated the dough ball on both sides with the Dustinator clone.

I prepared the dough to make the pizza in the same way as previously described, spreading the dough ball out to 14” to fit my 14” pizza screen. The dough skin was fairly extensible but I had no problems whatsoever in working with it. I flattened the edges of the skin on the screen so that it would not produce a puffy rim during the bake.

To dress the pizza, I decided to make my version of Papa John’s “Garden Fresh Pizza”. This is a PJ specialty pizza that is based on using fresh baby portabella mushrooms, green bell pepper, onions, black olives, Roma tomatoes, the standard PJ pizza sauce, and mozzarella cheese. I selected this specialty pizza for my latest effort mainly because I wanted to see how the pizza would bake with several toppings with high moisture content. The only material change I made was to substitute vine-ripened tomatoes for the less sweet Roma tomatoes. For the sauce, I used the Wal-Mart PJ clone sauce as described at Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg59208.html#msg59208. I used about 5 ounces of the sauce, by weight. For cheese, I used a low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese (Best Choice brand)--about 9 ounces. The cheese was comminuted to diced form using my Cuisinart food processor, as previously described.

I used the following items and sequence to dress my pizza: The Wal-Mart PJ clone sauce (about 5 ounces, by weight); one half of the mozzarella cheese; one half of the green bell pepper (diced), sweet yellow onion (sliced), and black California olives (sliced); the rest of the diced mozzarella cheese; the rest of the green bell pepper, sweet yellow onion and black olives; all of the baby portabella mushrooms (sliced); and the vine-ripened tomatoes (sliced, drained and lightly salted).  Quantitatively, for the veggies I used a total of about 1.8 oz. (50 g.) of green bell pepper, 2.1 oz. (60 g.) of onion, 3 oz. (85 g.) of mushrooms, 0.7 oz. (20 g.) of olives, and 5.8 oz. (165 g.) of tomatoes. The total unbaked weight of the pizza was 48.3 ounces.

The pizza was baked, on the 14” pizza screen, at the lowest oven rack position, at about 500 degrees F, for about 7 minutes, or until the bottom of the crust was the typical color of an authentic PJ pizza. Because I was using a conventional home oven and not a commercial air impingement oven that applies significant top heat (as it does in a PJ store), I moved the pizza off of the pizza screen (which I then removed from the oven) to the topmost oven rack position, where the pizza baked for about another two minutes. That allowed the toppings and cheese to bake more completely, help evaporate some of the moisture from the toppings, and to provide more top crust browning. The photos below show the finished pizza. Upon removing the pizza from the oven, I weighed it. It weighed about 44 ounces. This was a loss of weight during baking of about 8.8%. Surprisingly, there was only a small amount of surface water on the pizza due to the toppings releasing water during the bake. I easily removed the small amount of surface water with a paper towel, just as is commonly done by pizza operators who make veggie pizzas, arguably the toughest pizza to make and keep on the dry side.

The pizza itself was quite tasty. I wouldn’t rate it as highly as the last one--the Chicken Ranch Bacon Pizza--but that was largely because I much preferred the toppings used on the Chicken Ranch Bacon Pizza over the vegetable toppings used for the latest pizza. Also, I would say that the dough used for the Chicken Ranch Bacon Pizza produced a finished crust that was more like the crust of a real PJ pizza. The thickness of the crust and the size and weight of my version of the Garden Fresh Pizza were all quite close to a real PJ Garden Fresh Pizza, but the taste and texture of the finished crust and crumb were not as close to the crust of a real PJ pizza. I did not have a real PJ Garden Fresh Pizza to compare with mine so I could not say if the toppings and/or my home oven were responsible for the differences. Of course, it is also possible that a one-day cold fermentation of the dough is simply not enough to produce the crust flavors and texture of a real PJ crust that is based on a cold fermentation of 3-8 days (by my estimate).

As an alternative to a one-day cold fermented PJ clone dough as described in this post, it occurs to me that it may be possible to make a 24-hour room-temperature fermented PJ clone dough that will be an improvement over the most recent cold fermented version and possibly approach the quality of a dough cold fermented over a much longer period of time. The improved clone dough would be along the lines of the dough used to make the Chicken Ranch Bacon Pizza but with a much longer room temperature fermentation.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 08:50:06 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2008, 08:35:21 AM »
And, "in the box"..

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2008, 09:37:57 AM »
Damn!!! That looks perfect!!!
It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2008, 11:14:43 AM »
Trin,

Thank you. I have not seen the real thing--only photos, which are usually professionally doctored (see, for example, the official PJ photo at http://www.gomarshall.net/images/pj_gardenfresh.jpg) and don't look like the pizzas made in the PJ stores themselves. Even then, it depends on who in the store is making the pizza at the time that you order one and how busy they are. If they are being slammed, the pizza you get is thrown together more hastily than when they are not being rushed. I'm sure it takes me about ten times longer to construct my pizza than it does in a PJ store.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 11:27:02 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2008, 09:02:22 PM »
In Reply 31 in this thread, I mentioned the possibility of making a 24-hour room-temperature fermented PJ clone dough. After estimating the room temperature at which such a dough would ferment, I came up with the following dough formulation to experiment with, using the expanded dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

King Arthur Bread Flour-sifted (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.01250%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.2%):
Sugar (4.3%):
Total (169.2625%):
374.01 g  |  13.19 oz | 0.82 lbs
209.44 g  |  7.39 oz | 0.46 lbs
0.05 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.02 tsp | 0.01 tbsp
6.55 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.17 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
26.93 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.93 tsp | 1.98 tbsp
16.08 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.03 tsp | 1.34 tbsp
633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a  14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.142915; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As noted in the above table, the major change over the formulations I used previously for room-temperature fermented PJ clone doughs was the amount of yeast (IDY). It was only 0.02 teaspoon, or only 0.0125% of the weight of the formula flour. Actually, the precise amount was 0.015540 teaspoon, which was rounded out by the enhanced dough calculating tool to 0.02 teaspoon. On a volume basis, the yeast is equal to a bit less than 1/64 teaspoon. For those who have a mini measuring spoon set such as shown at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264, 1/64 teaspoon is called the “drop”. For those who do not have mini measuring spoons, the closest way I can think of to get 1/64 teaspoon is to divide a 1/8-teaspoon measuring spoon of yeast into eight equal “piles” and use only one of them. To put into perspective how little 1/64 teaspoon of IDY really is, a standard 0.25 ounce packet of IDY would make about 150 pizzas.

As also noted in the above table, I again used the King Arthur Bread flour, which I sifted, and the bowl residue compensation was 1.5% (to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough). The water temperature was 65 degrees F.

For those who do not have a scale but have a standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of flour specified in the above table, 13.21 ounces, converts to 2 c. + ½ c. + 1/3 c. + 2 T + about 1 ½ t. These volume measurements are based on using the “Textbook” method of measurement as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The 7.40 ounces of water in the above table converts to ¾ c. + 2 T. + a bit over 1/2 t. The level of water in the measuring cup should be viewed at eye level with the cup on a flat surface.

To make the dough, I started by placing the formula water (at 65 degrees F) into the mixer bowl of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer, followed by the salt and sugar, which were stirred to dissolve, about 30-45 seconds. I then added the IDY to the mixer bowl and stirred to dissolve, about 30 seconds. Ordinarily, I would have mixed the IDY into the flour but I was concerned that doing that would not result in a uniform dispersion throughout the flour. So, I put it into the water mixture. I then added the oil to the mixer bowl. With the flat beater attached, and the mixer operating at stir speed, I gradually added the KABF (sifted). Once the flour had been taken up by the dough mass and it pulled away from the sides of the bowl and aggregated around the flat beater, about 1-2 minutes, I stopped the mixer, removed all of the dough mass from the flat beater, and switched to the C-hook. The dough mass at this stage was shaggy and wet and sticky. With the mixer at speed 2, I then kneaded the dough mass for 5 minutes. The dough was still wet and sticky but the dough became dryer and smooth and supple after about 30 seconds of hand kneading. I used no bench flour. The finished dough weight was 22.01 oz., and the finished dough temperature was 81.6 degrees F.

After preparing the dough, I lightly oiled it and placed it in a one-quart Pyrex glass bowl. I then placed two poppy seeds spaced 1” apart at the center of the dough ball, in accordance with the method previously described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. The dough was loosely covered with a shower cap (with an elasticized band) and left to ferment at a room temperature of around 81 degrees F.

I had hoped that the dough would double in about 24 hours. As it turned out, the dough doubled in 17 hours, as indicated by the increase of spacing between the two poppy seeds from 1” to a bit over 1 ¼”. I believe that the disparity was due to a higher room temperature than the 81 degrees F I had originally estimated. It has been very hot where I live outside of Dallas and outside temperatures have regularly been in the 90s for about a month. Even last night, the outdoor temperature was 90 degrees F, and today the outside temperature reached 105 degrees F. I think the foreshortened fermentation period demonstrated how powerful the effects of temperature are, even with only 1/64 teaspoon of yeast. To be more accurate, I would have had to use something between 1/64 teaspoon and 1/128 teaspoon of yeast. I might also have used cooler water.

I decided under the circumstances to punch the dough down and let it rise again. This is similar to the two-stage fermentation used by Marco (pizzanapoletana) with Neapolitan doughs, and it is also similar to the two-stage fermentation method used by member Robin (in Wales) to make a NY style dough as he described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5826.msg49588.html#msg49588. In my case, the dough doubled again in about 6 hours. At that point, I decided to use the dough.

I prepared the dough to make the pizza in the same way as previously described, using my Dustinator “clone” flour blend (semolina flour, white flour and soybean oil) to coat both sides of the dough ball, and spreading the dough ball out to 14” to fit my 14” pizza screen. I had no problems whatsoever in doing this. Once on the screen, I pressed the outside edges of the skin so that a large rim would not form during the bake.

To dress the pizza, I decided to make my version of Papa John’s “Barbeque Chicken & Bacon Pizza”. This is another PJ specialty pizza that is based on using a barbeque sauce, grilled chicken, bacon, onions, and mozzarella cheese. In my case, the mozzarella cheese was a 50/50 blend (by weight) of whole-milk, part skim mozzarella cheese (I used the Fancy deli brand, by Burnett, in Wisconsin) and low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese (Best Choice brand). The total cheese weight was 9 ounces. The two cheeses were comminuted to diced form using my Cuisinart food processor, as previously described.

One of the key ingredients of the Papa John’s Barbeque Chicken & Bacon Pizza is the barbeque sauce it uses for that pizza. It is not the same sauce as it uses for its chicken wings. According to the information provided to me by Papa John’s, the barbeque sauce for its Barbeque Chicken & Bacon Pizza comprises the following ingredients:

BBQ Sauce for Chicken BBQ Pizza. Water, tomato paste, sugar, brown sugar, corn syrup solids, distilled vinegar, modified food starch, salt, spices, dehydrated onion, dehydrated garlic, soybean oil, potassium sorbate and sodium benzoate as a preservative.

As will be noted from the above ingredients list, what distinguishes it from most BBQ sauces is the absence of molasses. When I searched the supermarket shelves of several stores for a BBQ sauce without molasses and otherwise similar in its ingredients to the BBQ sauce used by Papa John’s, I found only two brands. The closest one was an inexpensive house brand called Always Save Original BBQ Sauce. That is the one I decided to use.

I used the following combination of items and sequence to dress the pizza: a thin layer of the Always Save Original BBQ Sauce (about 3.3 oz., by weight); one half of the onions (sweet yellow, sliced); about one-half of the mozzarella cheese blend (diced); pieces of white chicken breast that had been grilled briefly in butter to the pink-center point and coated with the Always Save BBQ sauce (about 7.75 oz., with sauce); bacon pieces (partially cooked and cut into 1" pieces, about 1.2 oz.); the rest of the onions; the rest of the mozzarella cheese blend; and a drizzle of more BBQ sauce over the entire pizza. The total weight of the onions was 1.5 oz. The total weight of the unbaked pizza was about 45 ounces.

The pizza was baked, on the 14” pizza screen, at the lowest oven rack position, at about 500 degrees F, for about 7 minutes, or until the bottom of the crust was the typical color of an authentic PJ pizza. Because I was using a conventional home oven and not a commercial air impingement oven that applies significant top heat (as it does in a PJ store), I moved the pizza off of the pizza screen (which I then removed from the oven) to the topmost oven rack position, where the pizza baked for about another minute. That allowed the cheese to bake more completely and to provide more top crust browning. The photos below show the finished pizza. Upon removing the pizza from the oven, I weighed it. It weighed about 42 ounces. This represented a loss of weight during baking of about 7.2%.

The pizza itself was quite good. Ordinarily, I do not care for most BBQ chicken pizzas because I find the sauces to be too sweet. However, the BBQ sauce I used was just about right from a sweetness standpoint. In fact, I found that drizzling more of the BBQ sauce over the baked pizza slices added another layer of sweetness that I found enjoyable. No doubt there are other brands out there that may be better than the one I used so I will be looking at labels of the brands sold in the supermarkets to see if there is a better one. The crust itself had a nice color, texture and flavor, with a sweetness that is characteristic of the authentic PJ crust. Since I have never had a PJ Barbeque Chicken & Bacon Pizza, I did not have a benchmark against which to compare my version. However, the total weight of the pizza and its size were similar to the PJ pizza based on the nutrition data at the PJ website.

Of the last three pizzas I made in this series of specialty clone pizzas, my favorite is my version of the Papa John’s Chicken Bacon Ranch Pizza. That is the one I would make again.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 03:25:39 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2008, 09:05:23 PM »
And... in the box

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2008, 05:07:00 PM »
Usually after I have conducted a series of experiments on a particular pizza style, I like to step back and think about what I learned from the exercise that might be useful in the future. And, so it was with my recent series of experiments to reverse engineer and clone the Papa John’s basic dough.

To begin, my basic conclusion is that if one wishes to create a dough clone that very closely replicates an authentic PJ dough, it will be necessary to make a cold fermented dough that overlays as closely as possible the types of ingredients and the dough preparation and management steps used by Papa John’s itself. This means using a lot of oil and sugar, relatively low yeast levels, use of modest water temperatures, and several days of cold fermentation. It also means trying to slow down the fermentation process so that a dough can last 3 to 8 days in the refrigerator. In short, it is doing the kinds of things that I described in Reply 2 in this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197). This combination will produce the characteristic soft, tender, slightly sweet, and somewhat gummy/doughy/pasty crumb that is a signature feature of an authentic PJ crust.

I found that I was also able to make other versions that did not require several days of fermentation, with very good results in most cases in terms of having crust characteristics similar to those of an authentic Papa John’s crust. I did not have the luxury of having authentic PJ pizzas in front of me as I made and ate each version, but I felt my versions were quite close. However, if a higher degree of authenticity is required, making the 3-8 day cold fermented dough is the preferred way to go.   

I also learned a lot about the effects of temperature on yeast performance. I made several room temperature fermented dough clones where the effects of temperature would be more evident and pronounced. I learned that it doesn’t take much yeast to make a room-temperature fermented same-day dough or an overnight (roughly 24 hour) dough. For example, for the last dough clone I made, I used only 1/64 teaspoon IDY. Even that turned out to be too much for my room temperature because the dough rose faster than I had wanted or expected because where I live in Texas outdoor temperatures have been close to 100 degrees F recently and my air-conditioning system has been working overtime trying to stabilize my indoor temperature. No doubt, in winter, I can expect to have the reverse problem and find it necessary to adapt my dough formulation to a colder kitchen temperature. I would do this by increasing the amount of yeast and by using warmer water temperatures. But, whether it is summer or winter, it will be necessary to determine how to combat the effects of room temperature so that your dough is ready when you are—not a lot earlier or a lot later.

One way to get around the above types of problems is to use a unit such as the ThermoKool MR-138 unit. I have such a unit and could have used it to control the temperatures during fermentation but I really wanted to see if I could make a usable dough without it. What I found to be a big help in this regard was using the poppy seed application as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. That allowed me to monitor the expansion of the dough balls throughout their entire fermentation and to decide when to use the dough balls. For example, I used this technique to tell when a given dough ball had doubled in volume so that I could punch it down before it rose too much more and developed an overly gassy and weakened structure. Based on my positive experience using the poppy seed application, I plan to make it a standard part of my dough management process wherever possible, even if it is just to provide additional data points for evaluation.

When I used very small amounts of yeast for the room-temperature fermented doughs, I also wondered what effects the high amount of oil (around 7%) would have on the yeast and its performance. For example, the last dough clone I made used only 0.01250% IDY (about 1/64 teaspoon) and 7.3% oil (almost 6 teaspoons). The answer was that there was little effect that I could tell. It might be an issue if much larger amounts of oil were used, as is the case with many Chicago-style deep-dish doughs that can use over 20% oil, but it was not an issue with the oil at around 7%.

I also tried making same-day preferment (poolish) versions of PJ dough clones. I did this along the lines of JerryMac’s NY style dough and my own baker’s percent versions of it. I liked the results generally but I found that the final products did not have the same overall crust characteristics of an authentic PJ crust and crumb. An example of such a pizza is shown in Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6749.msg58335.html#msg58335. Since my goal was to replicate the authentic PJ crust style, I did not post the preferment dough formulations I used. Nonetheless, I learned a lot from making the preferment versions and how to do the conversions of the standard dough clone formulation to the preferment format. I have kept my notes on those versions and can post a typical formulation and related processing methods if anyone is interested.

I also experimented with versions of some of PJ’s specialty pizzas. I did this as a change of pace from my standard pepperoni pizzas but I also wanted to see how well the pizzas would hold up to a lot of toppings. In this regard, the pizzas passed the test. For example, my version of PJ’s Garden Fresh Pizza had about 13.5 ounces of veggies, and it baked up quite well with only a little residual surface water released by the veggies during baking. 

I found that all of the pizzas, including my versions of the PJ specialty pizzas, reheated nicely. In just about all cases, the reheated slices were as good as the originals. I believe that the soft, thick crusts helped in this respect.

I also learned a lot about how pizzas lose weight during baking. Since I was trying to make my PJ clone pizzas to be as close as possible to their authentic PJ counterparts, I tried to design the pizzas to be as close as possible weight-wise and size-wise to the PJ counterparts. In general, I found that the losses during baking of my clone pizzas were around 7-8% for most pizzas and a bit more for pizzas with a lot of wet toppings, such as my version of the PJ Garden Fresh Pizza. That pizza required a longer total bake time to help drive off some of the moisture in the veggies, the effect of which was to further reduce the weight of the baked pizza..

Looking back, I believe that this thread presents a pretty good roadmap for those who wish to make a dough clone that fairly replicates an authentic PJ dough--whether it is a several-day cold fermented dough, a few-day cold fermented dough, or a same-day room-temperature fermented dough. Hopefully, the steps I took and the lessons and principles I learned will help others who decide to attempt to make their own PJ clone doughs and pizzas. In this vein, I welcome any feedback from such persons on their own efforts. I also welcome any information on the subject that is better than what I was able to find through my own research.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 08:09:40 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2008, 03:17:36 PM »
One of the things I have wanted to do for some time was to make a naturally-leavened American style dough. I had previously made naturally-leavened versions of the NY, deep-dish, cracker, and thin (e.g., DeLorenzo clones) style doughs, but not the American style. Having recently conducted several experiments to make Papa John clone doughs, I thought it would be natural to attempt a naturally-leavened PJ clone dough. Such an experiment would also allow me to see how a natural culture performs in a high-oil (7.2%), relatively high-sugar (4.2%) dough environment.

With the above considerations in mind, I used the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to come up with the following dough formulation:

Total Formula:
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
Salt (1.5%):
Oil (7.2%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (168.9%):

Preferment (Ischia):
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

374.81 g  |  13.22 oz | 0.83 lbs
209.89 g  |  7.4 oz | 0.46 lbs
5.62 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.17 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
26.99 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
15.74 g | 0.56 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.95 tsp | 1.32 tbsp
633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
41.23 g | 1.45 oz | 0.09 lbs
52.47 g | 1.85 oz | 0.12 lbs
93.7 g | 3.31 oz | 0.21 lbs

 
333.58 g | 11.77 oz | 0.74 lbs
157.42 g | 5.55 oz | 0.35 lbs
5.62 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.17 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
93.7 g | 3.31 oz | 0.21 lbs
26.99 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
15.74 g | 0.56 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.95 tsp | 1.32 tbsp
633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs  | TF = N/A
Note: For a 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.142915; preferment is an Ischia preferment and the quantity = 25% of the weight of the formula flour; the preferment water = 56% of the preferment; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As noted in the above table, for purposes of the experiment, I decided to use my Ischia culture, which is one of the most popular on the forum. Since my Ischia culture had been in the refrigerator for a long time without being used, I found it necessary to “wash” it. I did this over a period of about four days using the washing method described by Ed Wood in his book Classic Sourdoughs. I discovered very quickly how difficult and time consuming it can be to resurrect a Rip Van Winkle starter culture and how much flour and water can be consumed by the wash operation. I was able to revive the culture and get a lot of bubbling, and it had a wonderful wheaty aroma, but it did not climb out of the Mason jar as I would ordinarily expect. I decided to use the culture anyway and, to compensate for its lack of virility, to use it at the rate of 25% of the weight of the formula rather than the usual 15-20% quantity that I have used in the past with other types of dough.

For those who do not have a digital scale but have the standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of flour in the Final Dough part of the above table, 11.77 oz., converts to 2 c. + ½ c. + 2 T. + a bit over 1 1/8 t. The conversions are based on using the Textbook method of measurement as defined in Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The 5.55 oz. of water in the Final Dough part of the above table converts to ½ c. + 2 T. + 2 t. The level of the water in the measuring cup should be viewed at eye level with the measuring cup on a flat surface.

To prepare the dough, I started by adding the water, at a room temperature of about 82 degrees F, to the mixer bowl of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer. I then added the salt and sugar to the mixer bowl and stirred to dissolve, about 30 seconds. This was followed by adding the Ischia preferment, which was stirred to incorporate, about 30 seconds. I then added the oil to the mixer bowl. With the flat beater attached and the mixer operating at stir speed, I gradually added the King Arthur bread flour, which I had previously sifted, to the mixer bowl.

After the dough mass pulled away from the sides of the mixer bowl and gathered around the flat beater, I cleared the dough mass from the flat beater and switched to the C-hook. The dough at this point was scrappy and on the wet and sticky side. The dough was then kneaded for 5 minutes at speed 2. At the conclusion of the five-minute knead, the dough was still on the wet and sticky side. So, upon removal from the mixer bowl, I used the “punch and fold” method to help reduce the stickiness. This method has been described many times before, particularly in the context of the Neapolitan style, and is demonstrated in Images 4a-4c at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm. I did not use any bench flour, and the dough, while soft and malleable, was dry after the punch-and-fold method and easy to shape into a round ball. The dough ball was allowed to rest (riposo) for 15 minutes. The finished dough weight of the dough ball was 22.05 ounces, and the finished dough temperature (before the riposo) was 84.7 degrees F.

The dough ball was then lightly coated with oil (soybean oil) and placed in a lightly-oiled one-quart Pyrex glass bowl. I then placed two poppy seeds 1” apart at the top/center part of the dough ball. As described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html, the use of the poppy seeds was to be able to monitor the volume expansion of the dough during the fermentation period. The dough ball in the Pyrex bowl was then covered (with the plastic Pyrex bowl lid with a small opening in the center) and placed in the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 4 1/2 days. From the change in spacing between the two poppy seeds, I estimated that the dough had risen by only 10-15% while in the refrigerator. After the 4 ½-day fermentation period, I decided to prepare the dough for use. So, the dough was brought to room temperature to warm up and, hopefully, expand considerably more in volume. This took much longer than I had expected. It took about 20 hours at room temperature before the dough started to rise noticeably. But, by four more hours, the dough had doubled in volume (the poppy seed spacing had increased from 1” to about 1.25”). Because of other commitments, I was not able to use the dough at that precise time, so I put the dough ball back into the refrigerator for about four more hours. I then used the dough to prepare a pizza.

To prep the dough for use, I let it sit at room temperature for about a half hour to warm up. As with my past experiments in this thread, I coated the dough ball with my Dustinator clone blend of semolina flour, white flour, and soybean oil. I was able to easily shape and stretch the dough to a 14” skin and to place it on my 14” pizza screen. As before, I flattened the edges of the skin on the screen to minimize the creation of a large rim during baking. To dress the pizza, I used about 5.5 ounces (by weight) of the Wal-Mart Great Value version of the PJ clone sauce (described at Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg59208.html#msg59208); a blend of a deli whole-milk mozzarella cheese and Best Choice brand of low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese (a total weight of nine ounces) that I had diced in my food processor; and 44 Hormel pepperoni slices. To reduce the fat content of the pepperoni slices, I had placed them between sheets of paper towels and microwaved them for about 10 seconds. Pressing the slices between the sheets of paper towels absorbed the released fats (this reduced the weight of the pepperoni slices from 81 grams to 73 grams, or about 2.4 ounces total). The total weight of the unbaked pizza was about 39 ounces.

The pizza on the screen was baked at the lowest oven rack position at around 525 degrees F for about eight minutes. When I saw that the bottom crust of the pizza had not browned sufficiently, I removed the pizza screen from the oven and allowed the pizza to bake directly on the lowest oven rack for about another minute or two. This provided the normal bottom crust coloration. When I weighed the baked pizza upon removal from the oven, it weighed 34.6 ounces. This represented a loss during baking of about 11.5%. This was greater than usual and no doubt was because of the increased total baking time.

The photos below show the finished pizza. Overall, I thought the results were very good and, under the circumstances, exceeded my expectations. The pizza had the typical soft and tender, somewhat pasty crumb of an authentic PJ pizza, but with a crumb texture that was characteristic of a classic sourdough crumb. The size and shape of the pizza and the appearance of the pizza overall were in line with a real PJ pizza. I didn’t detect the usual degree of sweetness of the crust but that is something that should be easy to correct by simply increasing the amount of sugar in the dough formulation. The major differences were in the rim and in the flavor of the crust. The rim was a bit chewy and crispy, which are characteristics that are often achieved when using a preferment. I actually liked those characteristics even though they are not part of the PJ signature crust. The crust flavor was a bit on the tangy side, with a flavor profile characteristic of a naturally-leavened dough that has been fermented for a long time (in my case, a total of close to six days). Not everyone likes sourdough flavors in their pizza crusts so that is something to keep in mind when considering using a natural preferment for this style of pizza, with particular attention being given to the total fermentation time.

The results I achieved demonstrated not only that it is possible to successfully make a naturally-leavened American style dough but that it should also be possible to improve the finished results by using a natural culture that is at its peak performance level. Even with my Ischia preferment at less than peak performance level, it was possible to achieve good results, albeit at the expense of a long period of fermentation at room temperature. Fortunately, the two poppy seeds told me when the time came to use the dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 02:32:45 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2008, 03:23:25 PM »
And..."in the box"...

Peter


 

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