Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 297988 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2008, 11:00:58 AM »
And, since I think "in the box"...



Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2008, 03:39:46 PM »
Excellent pizza, Peter!!!

I'll take a large to go! ;D
Let them eat pizza.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2008, 02:57:28 PM »
Mad_Ernie,

Thanks for the compliment.

Out of curiosity, after you posted, I wondered what it cost me to make a large (14") pepperoni PJ clone pizza, based on what I paid for the ingredients to make the pizza. Just in food costs, it was around $6.35. For the mushroom/pepperoni pizza, the total food costs were around $6.85. Both figures reflect the increasing costs of flour (KABF is selling in the stores near me for $5.49 for a 5-lb. bag) and mozzarella cheese (even the house brands of mozzarella cheese are selling for over $4/lb.)

FYI, the mushroom/pepperoni pizza I made weighed almost 38 ounces, or 2 3/8 lb., when it came out of the oven. That translates to between 1/4 lb. and 1/3 lb. per slice (based on 8 slices). So, at around $6.85 for the pizza, it is still a relative bargain.

If I am willing to use a PJ coupon and drive to the closest PJ store on "Customer Appreciation Day" (the next one is July 26th), and only on that day, I can get a large PJ pepperoni pizza for $6.99, plus tax (and the cost of gasoline for the round trip). That price also includes a mini-tub of Special Garlic Sauce, a pepperoncini pepper, and a pizza box. PJ seems to do this deal every month toward the end of the month. The last time I bought a 14" PJ pepperoni pizza at regular price, without any coupon, I believe the total cost was something around $11. To that, I would have to add gasoline costs for the round trip (or even more if I use the current IRS mileage reimbursement numbers).

Peter
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 03:28:46 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline salchaa

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2008, 06:56:51 AM »
Hi everyone! I am following this site for a long time and thanx to all who shared their experiences and knowledge until now. I have learned a lot things in here and trying to read posts as much as I can but unfortunately, did not find time to write before. :(

Pete-zza, I know that you are very skillful and experienced person in making pizzas. Therefore, after I read your PJ Clone Pizza recipe I decided to ask you a question.  ::) I live in Turkiye and I love eating and making pizza. Hopefully, one day I will open my own pizza store but until that day I have to study a lot. There is no Papa John's in here so, I do not know how their pizzas' taste and charteristics of the crust but I guess it is similar to Dominos. May be more sweet and lighter crust. My question is, don't you think that the oil %7.3 in your clone recipe is too much? I tried many recipes from this site both neapolitan style with/without sourdough or american style and developed my own dough recipes but I never use such a big amount oil generally I use between %1-3 as Lehmann offers. So, I am very interested with your PJ clone recipe and want to learn why you prefer to use too much oil? ???

P.S. I tried your first formulation with oil around %2.8 and sugar %3.4 using 72 hours cold fermantation and the result was fantastic.

Hope to hear from you soon!

Respectfully,
Salcaa aka Onur  :chef:
I belive one day I will open my pizza store...

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2008, 09:22:43 AM »
salchaa,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I was wondering when someone might ask me how I came up with the amounts of oil, and sugar, to use in the PJ clone dough.

In the United States, an "American" style pizza uses a lot of fat (oil) and sugar in the dough. It is this combination that gives the crumb of the finished crust its soft and tender characteristic. Some might even describe the crumb as being on the "gummy" side or maybe a bit "pasty". But that is what it is. If I were to dramatically reduce the amount of oil in the dough, as you did, the finished pizza would no longer be an American style pizza. Because an American style pizza has a fairly thick crust, the finished pizza would be closer to a medium-to-thick NY style. We once had a member who worked in a pizzeria in upper New York state who said that such a pizza would be what he essentially called a "Buffalo New York NY style" pizza. But, whatever the style, it would not be an American style. It's been a long time since I last had a Domino's pizza, and I perhaps should give one a try again if only to compare it with a Papa John's pizza or clone, but if you look at the ingredients list for a hand tossed Domino's dough at http://www.dominos.com/home/menu/dominos_nutrition.pdf, you will see that the ingredients list is similar to Papa John's and includes fair amounts of both oil and sugar. So, your comparison of a Papa John's pizza with a Domino's pizza is perhaps not far off the mark.

To determine the amount of oil to use in the PJ clone doughs, I analyzed the nutrition information given by Papa John's at its website (at http://www.papajohns.com/menu/index.htm), along with the list of ingredients I obtained from Papa John's (as previously discussed), and general nutrition data given at the nutrition website http://www.nutritiondata.com/. Analyzing nutrition information is not an area where I have specific training or particular expertise, and the process was made somewhat more complicated because I was not using the identical ingredients used by Papa John's to make its pizzas, but what I basically tried to do is to determine how much fat was in the different ingredients that I believe Papa John's uses to make its pizzas. For example, there is fat/oil in the pizza sauce, the cheese(s), and the pepperoni slices. All fat/oil beyond those sources would be in the dough used to make the pizzas. From my analysis, I arrived at a fat content, in the form of oil (specifically, soybean oil), of over 7%. When I found that I could not tell the difference between my original 5-day crust (the first clone in this thread) and the crust of a real Papa John's pizza, I saw no need to experiment further with other possible/workable values of oil. FYI, I went through a similar analysis with the sugar content, except that I ended up adjusting the value to the point where I could detect sweetness in the finished crust on my palate. As it turns out, the levels of sugar were below the threshhold value (about 5%) where the sugar would exert an osmotic effect on the yeast and degrade yeast performance. Someone else with different or more discerning taste receptors than mine might find that they need to use different amounts of sugar. 

In your case, you should, of course, experiment with different values of oil--and sugar as well. That is what this forum is all about. In general, I think that you may find that there are a lot of combinations of oil and sugar that will work and produce satisfying results so long as you carefully adhere to the dough formulations and procedures I described. There was a purpose and reason for everything I did. In my case, as I previously emphasized, I was attempting to come up with a clone that is as close as possible to a real PJ"s pizza, not to improve upon it. Where I perhaps did make a contribution that some might consider to be meaningful is developing dough formulations that can be used to make credible PJ clone pizzas in the same day or within a couple of days, as opposed to the 3-8 days that I believe PJ's uses for the pizzas made in its stores. One of these days, I may try to come up with a one-day, cold-ferment version just to complete the picture. With over 3000 stores and eleven Quality Control Centers in the U.S dedicated to making dough balls for those stores, Papa John's is stuck with its 3-8 day business model. You aren't.

Peter

EDIT (4/20/14): For a Wayback Machine link to the Domino's pdf document (2008) above, see http://web.archive.org/web/20090206032640/http://dominos.com/home/menu/dominos_nutrition.pdf

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2008, 03:02:32 PM »
In Reply 24 of this thread, I raised the possibility of making a same-day PJ clone dough with a long room-temperature fermentation. I was targeting a period of more than 8 hours with only a single rise of the dough. The longer rise time would contribute more to the final crust texture and flavors and also make it unnecessary for someone to be present to punch the dough down over the fermentation period. That way, one could start the dough in the morning, for example, before going to work, and make the pizza later that day. Or make the dough at night to be used the next day.

Between Reply 24 and this post, I experimented with different combinations of yeast quantity and water temperature to try to achieve the above goal. The room temperature was fixed at around 80 degrees F. I discovered the powerful effects of room temperature on the rise of the dough, even with very small amounts of yeast—as little as 1/16 teaspoon (IDY). Finally, I came up with a combination that allowed the dough to reach 12 hours with a single rise. To do this, I used 1/32 teaspoon of IDY (0.025% by weight of flour) and a water temperature of 65 degrees F. The room temperature was around 81 degrees F.

To give readers an idea of how little 1/32 teaspoon of IDY really is, a one-pound bag of IDY would be enough to make over 5000 pizzas at the rate of usage of 1/32 teaspoon IDY per pizza. For those who have a set of mini measuring spoons such as shown at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264, 1/32 teaspoon is a “smidgen”.  For those who do not have a set of mini spoons, the best way to get 1/32 teaspoon of yeast is to measure out 1/8 teaspoon of the yeast, divide that amount into four little equal “piles”, and use one of those little “piles”.

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html top come up with the following final dough formulation to use:

King Arthur Bread Flour-sifted (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.025%):
Salt (1.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.2%):
Sugar (4.0%):
Total (168.725%):
375.2 g  |  13.23 oz | 0.83 lbs
210.11 g  |  7.41 oz | 0.46 lbs
0.09 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.03 tsp | 0.01 tbsp
5.63 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
27.01 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.95 tsp | 1.98 tbsp
15.01 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.76 tsp | 1.25 tbsp
633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.142915; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%.

For those who do not have a scale, the amount of flour in the above table, 13.23 ounces, converts to 3 c. + 7/8 t. These volume measurements are based on using the “Textbook” method of flour measurement as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The actual conversions were made using member November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/. The 7.41 ounces of water in the above table converts to a bit over 7/8 c. The level of the water in the measuring cup should be viewed at eye level with the measuring cup on a flat surface.

The dough was prepared in exactly the same manner as described in Reply 24. The only differences were the ones noted above plus a few minor changes I made to the dough formulation itself. The finished dough weight was 21.90 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 80.1 degrees F.

To monitor the progress of the dough during the rise (fermentation) period, I used the “poppy seed trick” as previously described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. I placed two poppy seeds one inch apart on the middle of the top of the dough ball and periodically measured the increase in the spacing between the two poppy seeds. It took a bit over 10 hours for the dough to increase by 50%, and almost exactly 12 hours to double. At the doubling point, the spacing between the two poppy seeds was a tad over 1 1/4 “ (1.26” x 1.26” x 1.26” = 2.00). Once the dough had doubled, I used it to make a pizza.

I prepared the dough to make the pizza in the same way as previously described, using my Dustinator “clone” flour blend (semolina flour, white flour and soybean oil) and spreading the dough ball out to 14” to fit my 14” pizza screen. I had no problems whatsoever in doing this.

To dress the pizza, I decided to make my version of Papa John’s “Chicken Bacon Ranch Pizza” (for official PJ photo, see http://www.papajohns.com/menu/pza_ckn_bacon_ranch.shtm). This is a PJ specialty pizza that is based on using a garlic ranch sauce, seasoned white chicken pieces, bacon, onions, Roma tomatoes, and mozzarella cheese. My assembly no doubt differed from what PJ’s uses but I used the following items and sequence to dress my pizza: Ranch sauce (Ken’s brand of Buttermilk Ranch Dressing, about 2 oz. by weight); several cloves of roasted garlic; one half of the mozzarella cheese (Best Choice low-moisture, part-skim, diced in my food processor); pieces of white chicken breasts (about 5 oz.) grilled in butter (until only a little pink remained in the center), and seasoned with garlic powder, onion powder and Wyler’s chicken, garlic and herb seasoning; sliced sweet onion; pieces of partially-cooked smoked bacon slices (about 3 slices cut into one-inch pieces); the rest of the mozzarella cheese (diced); and sweet, sliced, pre-drained tomatoes (Campari). The dressed pizza weighed a bit over 47 ounces. The total weight of mozzarella cheese was about 9 ounces.

The pizza was baked, on the 14” pizza screen, at the lowest oven rack position, at about 500 degrees F, for about 7 minutes, or until the bottom of the crust was the typical color of an authentic PJ pizza. Because I was using a conventional home oven and not a commercial air impingement oven that applies significant top heat (as it does in a PJ store), I moved the pizza off of the pizza screen (which I then removed from the oven) to the topmost oven rack position, where the pizza baked for about another two minutes. That allowed the toppings and cheese to bake more completely, and to provide more top crust browning. The photos below show the finished pizza. Upon removing the pizza from the oven, I weighed it. It weighed almost 43 ounces. This was a loss of weight during baking of about 10%. This was expected since I moved the pizza to a higher oven position where it was exposed to substantial top heat.

The pizza itself was delicious. The crust had many of the crust attributes and characteristics of a real PJ crust but I did not have a real PJ Chicken Bacon Ranch Pizza against which to compare my version of that pizza. But I was very happy with my results nonetheless. The crust had a nice texture and flavor and with the characteristic (but not overbearing) sweetness of the PJ crust. The reheated slices were also excellent. About the only changes I would contemplate for a future effort is to use a bit more Ranch dressing and a few more tomato slices--the sweeter the better.

There are a few points that one should keep in mind about the same-day clone dough that I made. The particular combination of yeast quantity, water temperature and room temperature I used are unique to this time of year. As the weather changes, and especially when cooler weather is upon us, the combination will have to be altered—as by using more yeast and warmer water (in relation to the prevailing room temperature). For those who wish to modify the process this time of year, the fermentation time can be altered to increase it (by using less yeast and/or cooler water) or decrease it (by using more yeast and/or warmer water). For example, if I want to make a 24-hour dough, I might use 1/64 teaspoon of IDY (although I haven’t actually tried it). But, whatever fermentation period is selected, I believe that using the poppy seed trick is a very valuable tool for monitoring the rise of the dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:45:17 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2008, 08:32:30 AM »
To date, I have made and reported on the following PJ clone doughs/pizzas under this thread:

1) Five-day dough, cold fermented, pepperoni: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197 (Reply 2)
2) Two-day dough, cold fermented, pepperoni: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217 (Reply 20)
3) Same day dough (8 hours, with intermediate punch down), room-temperature fermented, pepperoni/mushroom: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59357.html#msg59357 (Reply 24)
4) Same day dough (12 hours, with no intermediate punch down), room-temperature fermented, Chicken Bacon Ranch: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59762.html#msg59762 (Reply 30)

To expand the above collection, I thought that it might be useful to make a one-day (24-hour) cold-fermented PJ clone dough. For this purpose, I came up with the following PJ clone dough formulation, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

King Arthur Bread Flour-sifted (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (169.4%):
373.7 g  |  13.18 oz | 0.82 lbs
209.27 g  |  7.38 oz | 0.46 lbs
1.49 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
5.61 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
27.28 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.01 tsp | 2 tbsp
15.7 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.94 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.142915; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

The major change in the above formulation was the amount of yeast—0.40% IDY (about a half teaspoon). Also, the water temperature was selected not only to result in a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F but also to control the rate of fermentation. For this purpose, I used a water temperature of 65 degrees F. As before, I used sifted King Arthur bread flour. As noted in the above table, I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough.

For those who do not have a scale but have a standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of flour specified in the above table, 13.18 ounces, converts to 3 c. + 1/4 t. These volume measurements are based on using the “Textbook” method of measurement as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The 7.38 ounces of water in the above table converts to 1/2 c. + 1/3 c. + approx. 2 1/2 t. The level of water in the measuring cup(s) should be viewed at eye level with the cup(s) on a flat surface.

To prepare the dough, I started by combining the yeast (IDY) with the KABF (sifted) in a bowl. I then added the water, at 65 degrees F, to the mixer bowl of my KitchenAid stand mixer, followed by the sugar and salt, which were stirred to dissolve, about 30 seconds. The oil was then added to the mixer bowl. Using the flat beater of my mixer, and with the mixer operating at stir speed, I gradually added the flour/IDY mixture to the mixer bowl. The contents of the mixer bowl were mixed until the flour had been taken up by the dough and the dough pulled away from the sides of the bowl and aggregated as a rough dough mass around the flat beater, about 1-2 minutes. The dough mass at this stage was shaggy and on the wet and sticky side. After thoroughly removing the dough mass from the flat beater, the flat beater was replaced by the C-hook. The dough mass was then kneaded at speed 2 for about 5-6 minutes. At the end of this time, the dough was still on the wet and sticky side but after removing the dough ball from the C-hook and kneading it by hand for about 30 seconds, the dough became dryer and smooth and supple. No bench flour was needed. After coating the dough ball with a bit of vegetable oil (soybean oil), I placed it in a one-quart glass Pyrex bowl.

Using the previously described “poppy seed trick” (for details, see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html), I then placed two poppy seeds at the center of the dough ball spaced apart by 1”. As before, the purpose of the poppy seed trick was to monitor the rise of the dough during the course of its fermentation by watching the change in spacing between the two poppy seeds as the dough expanded. The bowl with the dough in it was then covered and placed in the refrigerator. The finished dough weight at this point was 22.3 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was about 79 degrees F.

The dough remained in the refrigerator for exactly 24 hours. At this point, the spacing between the two poppy seeds—about 1 ¼”—indicated that the dough ball had just about doubled in volume during the time of its cold fermentation. This was my objective from the outset, and it appears that the steps taken to achieve that objective were pretty much on the mark. Even if I was off, I could have simply watched the spacing of the poppy seeds to know when the dough had doubled. The dough was then allowed to warm up at room temperature of about 80 degrees F for about 1 ½ hours. While it was warming up, I made my “Dustinator” clone flour blend of semolina flour, white flour and soybean oil, and coated the dough ball on both sides with the Dustinator clone.

I prepared the dough to make the pizza in the same way as previously described, spreading the dough ball out to 14” to fit my 14” pizza screen. The dough skin was fairly extensible but I had no problems whatsoever in working with it. I flattened the edges of the skin on the screen so that it would not produce a puffy rim during the bake.

To dress the pizza, I decided to make my version of Papa John’s “Garden Fresh Pizza”. This is a PJ specialty pizza that is based on using fresh baby portabella mushrooms, green bell pepper, onions, black olives, Roma tomatoes, the standard PJ pizza sauce, and mozzarella cheese. I selected this specialty pizza for my latest effort mainly because I wanted to see how the pizza would bake with several toppings with high moisture content. The only material change I made was to substitute vine-ripened tomatoes for the less sweet Roma tomatoes. For the sauce, I used the Wal-Mart PJ clone sauce as described at Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg59208.html#msg59208. I used about 5 ounces of the sauce, by weight. For cheese, I used a low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese (Best Choice brand)--about 9 ounces. The cheese was comminuted to diced form using my Cuisinart food processor, as previously described.

I used the following items and sequence to dress my pizza: The Wal-Mart PJ clone sauce (about 5 ounces, by weight); one half of the mozzarella cheese; one half of the green bell pepper (diced), sweet yellow onion (sliced), and black California olives (sliced); the rest of the diced mozzarella cheese; the rest of the green bell pepper, sweet yellow onion and black olives; all of the baby portabella mushrooms (sliced); and the vine-ripened tomatoes (sliced, drained and lightly salted).  Quantitatively, for the veggies I used a total of about 1.8 oz. (50 g.) of green bell pepper, 2.1 oz. (60 g.) of onion, 3 oz. (85 g.) of mushrooms, 0.7 oz. (20 g.) of olives, and 5.8 oz. (165 g.) of tomatoes. The total unbaked weight of the pizza was 48.3 ounces.

The pizza was baked, on the 14” pizza screen, at the lowest oven rack position, at about 500 degrees F, for about 7 minutes, or until the bottom of the crust was the typical color of an authentic PJ pizza. Because I was using a conventional home oven and not a commercial air impingement oven that applies significant top heat (as it does in a PJ store), I moved the pizza off of the pizza screen (which I then removed from the oven) to the topmost oven rack position, where the pizza baked for about another two minutes. That allowed the toppings and cheese to bake more completely, help evaporate some of the moisture from the toppings, and to provide more top crust browning. The photos below show the finished pizza. Upon removing the pizza from the oven, I weighed it. It weighed about 44 ounces. This was a loss of weight during baking of about 8.8%. Surprisingly, there was only a small amount of surface water on the pizza due to the toppings releasing water during the bake. I easily removed the small amount of surface water with a paper towel, just as is commonly done by pizza operators who make veggie pizzas, arguably the toughest pizza to make and keep on the dry side.

The pizza itself was quite tasty. I wouldn’t rate it as highly as the last one--the Chicken Ranch Bacon Pizza--but that was largely because I much preferred the toppings used on the Chicken Ranch Bacon Pizza over the vegetable toppings used for the latest pizza. Also, I would say that the dough used for the Chicken Ranch Bacon Pizza produced a finished crust that was more like the crust of a real PJ pizza. The thickness of the crust and the size and weight of my version of the Garden Fresh Pizza were all quite close to a real PJ Garden Fresh Pizza, but the taste and texture of the finished crust and crumb were not as close to the crust of a real PJ pizza. I did not have a real PJ Garden Fresh Pizza to compare with mine so I could not say if the toppings and/or my home oven were responsible for the differences. Of course, it is also possible that a one-day cold fermentation of the dough is simply not enough to produce the crust flavors and texture of a real PJ crust that is based on a cold fermentation of 3-8 days (by my estimate).

As an alternative to a one-day cold fermented PJ clone dough as described in this post, it occurs to me that it may be possible to make a 24-hour room-temperature fermented PJ clone dough that will be an improvement over the most recent cold fermented version and possibly approach the quality of a dough cold fermented over a much longer period of time. The improved clone dough would be along the lines of the dough used to make the Chicken Ranch Bacon Pizza but with a much longer room temperature fermentation.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 08:50:06 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2008, 08:35:21 AM »
And, "in the box"..

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2008, 09:37:57 AM »
Damn!!! That looks perfect!!!
It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2008, 11:14:43 AM »
Trin,

Thank you. I have not seen the real thing--only photos, which are usually professionally doctored (see, for example, the official PJ photo at http://www.gomarshall.net/images/pj_gardenfresh.jpg) and don't look like the pizzas made in the PJ stores themselves. Even then, it depends on who in the store is making the pizza at the time that you order one and how busy they are. If they are being slammed, the pizza you get is thrown together more hastily than when they are not being rushed. I'm sure it takes me about ten times longer to construct my pizza than it does in a PJ store.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 11:27:02 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2008, 09:02:22 PM »
In Reply 31 in this thread, I mentioned the possibility of making a 24-hour room-temperature fermented PJ clone dough. After estimating the room temperature at which such a dough would ferment, I came up with the following dough formulation to experiment with, using the expanded dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

King Arthur Bread Flour-sifted (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.01250%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.2%):
Sugar (4.3%):
Total (169.2625%):
374.01 g  |  13.19 oz | 0.82 lbs
209.44 g  |  7.39 oz | 0.46 lbs
0.05 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0.02 tsp | 0.01 tbsp
6.55 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.17 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
26.93 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.93 tsp | 1.98 tbsp
16.08 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.03 tsp | 1.34 tbsp
633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a  14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.142915; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As noted in the above table, the major change over the formulations I used previously for room-temperature fermented PJ clone doughs was the amount of yeast (IDY). It was only 0.02 teaspoon, or only 0.0125% of the weight of the formula flour. Actually, the precise amount was 0.015540 teaspoon, which was rounded out by the enhanced dough calculating tool to 0.02 teaspoon. On a volume basis, the yeast is equal to a bit less than 1/64 teaspoon. For those who have a mini measuring spoon set such as shown at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264, 1/64 teaspoon is called the “drop”. For those who do not have mini measuring spoons, the closest way I can think of to get 1/64 teaspoon is to divide a 1/8-teaspoon measuring spoon of yeast into eight equal “piles” and use only one of them. To put into perspective how little 1/64 teaspoon of IDY really is, a standard 0.25 ounce packet of IDY would make about 150 pizzas.

As also noted in the above table, I again used the King Arthur Bread flour, which I sifted, and the bowl residue compensation was 1.5% (to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough). The water temperature was 65 degrees F.

For those who do not have a scale but have a standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of flour specified in the above table, 13.21 ounces, converts to 2 c. + ½ c. + 1/3 c. + 2 T + about 1 ½ t. These volume measurements are based on using the “Textbook” method of measurement as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The 7.40 ounces of water in the above table converts to ¾ c. + 2 T. + a bit over 1/2 t. The level of water in the measuring cup should be viewed at eye level with the cup on a flat surface.

To make the dough, I started by placing the formula water (at 65 degrees F) into the mixer bowl of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer, followed by the salt and sugar, which were stirred to dissolve, about 30-45 seconds. I then added the IDY to the mixer bowl and stirred to dissolve, about 30 seconds. Ordinarily, I would have mixed the IDY into the flour but I was concerned that doing that would not result in a uniform dispersion throughout the flour. So, I put it into the water mixture. I then added the oil to the mixer bowl. With the flat beater attached, and the mixer operating at stir speed, I gradually added the KABF (sifted). Once the flour had been taken up by the dough mass and it pulled away from the sides of the bowl and aggregated around the flat beater, about 1-2 minutes, I stopped the mixer, removed all of the dough mass from the flat beater, and switched to the C-hook. The dough mass at this stage was shaggy and wet and sticky. With the mixer at speed 2, I then kneaded the dough mass for 5 minutes. The dough was still wet and sticky but the dough became dryer and smooth and supple after about 30 seconds of hand kneading. I used no bench flour. The finished dough weight was 22.01 oz., and the finished dough temperature was 81.6 degrees F.

After preparing the dough, I lightly oiled it and placed it in a one-quart Pyrex glass bowl. I then placed two poppy seeds spaced 1” apart at the center of the dough ball, in accordance with the method previously described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. The dough was loosely covered with a shower cap (with an elasticized band) and left to ferment at a room temperature of around 81 degrees F.

I had hoped that the dough would double in about 24 hours. As it turned out, the dough doubled in 17 hours, as indicated by the increase of spacing between the two poppy seeds from 1” to a bit over 1 ¼”. I believe that the disparity was due to a higher room temperature than the 81 degrees F I had originally estimated. It has been very hot where I live outside of Dallas and outside temperatures have regularly been in the 90s for about a month. Even last night, the outdoor temperature was 90 degrees F, and today the outside temperature reached 105 degrees F. I think the foreshortened fermentation period demonstrated how powerful the effects of temperature are, even with only 1/64 teaspoon of yeast. To be more accurate, I would have had to use something between 1/64 teaspoon and 1/128 teaspoon of yeast. I might also have used cooler water.

I decided under the circumstances to punch the dough down and let it rise again. This is similar to the two-stage fermentation used by Marco (pizzanapoletana) with Neapolitan doughs, and it is also similar to the two-stage fermentation method used by member Robin (in Wales) to make a NY style dough as he described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5826.msg49588.html#msg49588. In my case, the dough doubled again in about 6 hours. At that point, I decided to use the dough.

I prepared the dough to make the pizza in the same way as previously described, using my Dustinator “clone” flour blend (semolina flour, white flour and soybean oil) to coat both sides of the dough ball, and spreading the dough ball out to 14” to fit my 14” pizza screen. I had no problems whatsoever in doing this. Once on the screen, I pressed the outside edges of the skin so that a large rim would not form during the bake.

To dress the pizza, I decided to make my version of Papa John’s “Barbeque Chicken & Bacon Pizza”. This is another PJ specialty pizza that is based on using a barbeque sauce, grilled chicken, bacon, onions, and mozzarella cheese. In my case, the mozzarella cheese was a 50/50 blend (by weight) of whole-milk, part skim mozzarella cheese (I used the Fancy deli brand, by Burnett, in Wisconsin) and low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese (Best Choice brand). The total cheese weight was 9 ounces. The two cheeses were comminuted to diced form using my Cuisinart food processor, as previously described.

One of the key ingredients of the Papa John’s Barbeque Chicken & Bacon Pizza is the barbeque sauce it uses for that pizza. It is not the same sauce as it uses for its chicken wings. According to the information provided to me by Papa John’s, the barbeque sauce for its Barbeque Chicken & Bacon Pizza comprises the following ingredients:

BBQ Sauce for Chicken BBQ Pizza. Water, tomato paste, sugar, brown sugar, corn syrup solids, distilled vinegar, modified food starch, salt, spices, dehydrated onion, dehydrated garlic, soybean oil, potassium sorbate and sodium benzoate as a preservative.

As will be noted from the above ingredients list, what distinguishes it from most BBQ sauces is the absence of molasses. When I searched the supermarket shelves of several stores for a BBQ sauce without molasses and otherwise similar in its ingredients to the BBQ sauce used by Papa John’s, I found only two brands. The closest one was an inexpensive house brand called Always Save Original BBQ Sauce. That is the one I decided to use.

I used the following combination of items and sequence to dress the pizza: a thin layer of the Always Save Original BBQ Sauce (about 3.3 oz., by weight); one half of the onions (sweet yellow, sliced); about one-half of the mozzarella cheese blend (diced); pieces of white chicken breast that had been grilled briefly in butter to the pink-center point and coated with the Always Save BBQ sauce (about 7.75 oz., with sauce); bacon pieces (partially cooked and cut into 1" pieces, about 1.2 oz.); the rest of the onions; the rest of the mozzarella cheese blend; and a drizzle of more BBQ sauce over the entire pizza. The total weight of the onions was 1.5 oz. The total weight of the unbaked pizza was about 45 ounces.

The pizza was baked, on the 14” pizza screen, at the lowest oven rack position, at about 500 degrees F, for about 7 minutes, or until the bottom of the crust was the typical color of an authentic PJ pizza. Because I was using a conventional home oven and not a commercial air impingement oven that applies significant top heat (as it does in a PJ store), I moved the pizza off of the pizza screen (which I then removed from the oven) to the topmost oven rack position, where the pizza baked for about another minute. That allowed the cheese to bake more completely and to provide more top crust browning. The photos below show the finished pizza. Upon removing the pizza from the oven, I weighed it. It weighed about 42 ounces. This represented a loss of weight during baking of about 7.2%.

The pizza itself was quite good. Ordinarily, I do not care for most BBQ chicken pizzas because I find the sauces to be too sweet. However, the BBQ sauce I used was just about right from a sweetness standpoint. In fact, I found that drizzling more of the BBQ sauce over the baked pizza slices added another layer of sweetness that I found enjoyable. No doubt there are other brands out there that may be better than the one I used so I will be looking at labels of the brands sold in the supermarkets to see if there is a better one. The crust itself had a nice color, texture and flavor, with a sweetness that is characteristic of the authentic PJ crust. Since I have never had a PJ Barbeque Chicken & Bacon Pizza, I did not have a benchmark against which to compare my version. However, the total weight of the pizza and its size were similar to the PJ pizza based on the nutrition data at the PJ website.

Of the last three pizzas I made in this series of specialty clone pizzas, my favorite is my version of the Papa John’s Chicken Bacon Ranch Pizza. That is the one I would make again.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 03:25:39 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2008, 09:05:23 PM »
And... in the box

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2008, 05:07:00 PM »
Usually after I have conducted a series of experiments on a particular pizza style, I like to step back and think about what I learned from the exercise that might be useful in the future. And, so it was with my recent series of experiments to reverse engineer and clone the Papa John’s basic dough.

To begin, my basic conclusion is that if one wishes to create a dough clone that very closely replicates an authentic PJ dough, it will be necessary to make a cold fermented dough that overlays as closely as possible the types of ingredients and the dough preparation and management steps used by Papa John’s itself. This means using a lot of oil and sugar, relatively low yeast levels, use of modest water temperatures, and several days of cold fermentation. It also means trying to slow down the fermentation process so that a dough can last 3 to 8 days in the refrigerator. In short, it is doing the kinds of things that I described in Reply 2 in this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197). This combination will produce the characteristic soft, tender, slightly sweet, and somewhat gummy/doughy/pasty crumb that is a signature feature of an authentic PJ crust.

I found that I was also able to make other versions that did not require several days of fermentation, with very good results in most cases in terms of having crust characteristics similar to those of an authentic Papa John’s crust. I did not have the luxury of having authentic PJ pizzas in front of me as I made and ate each version, but I felt my versions were quite close. However, if a higher degree of authenticity is required, making the 3-8 day cold fermented dough is the preferred way to go.   

I also learned a lot about the effects of temperature on yeast performance. I made several room temperature fermented dough clones where the effects of temperature would be more evident and pronounced. I learned that it doesn’t take much yeast to make a room-temperature fermented same-day dough or an overnight (roughly 24 hour) dough. For example, for the last dough clone I made, I used only 1/64 teaspoon IDY. Even that turned out to be too much for my room temperature because the dough rose faster than I had wanted or expected because where I live in Texas outdoor temperatures have been close to 100 degrees F recently and my air-conditioning system has been working overtime trying to stabilize my indoor temperature. No doubt, in winter, I can expect to have the reverse problem and find it necessary to adapt my dough formulation to a colder kitchen temperature. I would do this by increasing the amount of yeast and by using warmer water temperatures. But, whether it is summer or winter, it will be necessary to determine how to combat the effects of room temperature so that your dough is ready when you are—not a lot earlier or a lot later.

One way to get around the above types of problems is to use a unit such as the ThermoKool MR-138 unit. I have such a unit and could have used it to control the temperatures during fermentation but I really wanted to see if I could make a usable dough without it. What I found to be a big help in this regard was using the poppy seed application as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. That allowed me to monitor the expansion of the dough balls throughout their entire fermentation and to decide when to use the dough balls. For example, I used this technique to tell when a given dough ball had doubled in volume so that I could punch it down before it rose too much more and developed an overly gassy and weakened structure. Based on my positive experience using the poppy seed application, I plan to make it a standard part of my dough management process wherever possible, even if it is just to provide additional data points for evaluation.

When I used very small amounts of yeast for the room-temperature fermented doughs, I also wondered what effects the high amount of oil (around 7%) would have on the yeast and its performance. For example, the last dough clone I made used only 0.01250% IDY (about 1/64 teaspoon) and 7.3% oil (almost 6 teaspoons). The answer was that there was little effect that I could tell. It might be an issue if much larger amounts of oil were used, as is the case with many Chicago-style deep-dish doughs that can use over 20% oil, but it was not an issue with the oil at around 7%.

I also tried making same-day preferment (poolish) versions of PJ dough clones. I did this along the lines of JerryMac’s NY style dough and my own baker’s percent versions of it. I liked the results generally but I found that the final products did not have the same overall crust characteristics of an authentic PJ crust and crumb. An example of such a pizza is shown in Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6749.msg58335.html#msg58335. Since my goal was to replicate the authentic PJ crust style, I did not post the preferment dough formulations I used. Nonetheless, I learned a lot from making the preferment versions and how to do the conversions of the standard dough clone formulation to the preferment format. I have kept my notes on those versions and can post a typical formulation and related processing methods if anyone is interested.

I also experimented with versions of some of PJ’s specialty pizzas. I did this as a change of pace from my standard pepperoni pizzas but I also wanted to see how well the pizzas would hold up to a lot of toppings. In this regard, the pizzas passed the test. For example, my version of PJ’s Garden Fresh Pizza had about 13.5 ounces of veggies, and it baked up quite well with only a little residual surface water released by the veggies during baking. 

I found that all of the pizzas, including my versions of the PJ specialty pizzas, reheated nicely. In just about all cases, the reheated slices were as good as the originals. I believe that the soft, thick crusts helped in this respect.

I also learned a lot about how pizzas lose weight during baking. Since I was trying to make my PJ clone pizzas to be as close as possible to their authentic PJ counterparts, I tried to design the pizzas to be as close as possible weight-wise and size-wise to the PJ counterparts. In general, I found that the losses during baking of my clone pizzas were around 7-8% for most pizzas and a bit more for pizzas with a lot of wet toppings, such as my version of the PJ Garden Fresh Pizza. That pizza required a longer total bake time to help drive off some of the moisture in the veggies, the effect of which was to further reduce the weight of the baked pizza..

Looking back, I believe that this thread presents a pretty good roadmap for those who wish to make a dough clone that fairly replicates an authentic PJ dough--whether it is a several-day cold fermented dough, a few-day cold fermented dough, or a same-day room-temperature fermented dough. Hopefully, the steps I took and the lessons and principles I learned will help others who decide to attempt to make their own PJ clone doughs and pizzas. In this vein, I welcome any feedback from such persons on their own efforts. I also welcome any information on the subject that is better than what I was able to find through my own research.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 08:09:40 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2008, 03:17:36 PM »
One of the things I have wanted to do for some time was to make a naturally-leavened American style dough. I had previously made naturally-leavened versions of the NY, deep-dish, cracker, and thin (e.g., DeLorenzo clones) style doughs, but not the American style. Having recently conducted several experiments to make Papa John clone doughs, I thought it would be natural to attempt a naturally-leavened PJ clone dough. Such an experiment would also allow me to see how a natural culture performs in a high-oil (7.2%), relatively high-sugar (4.2%) dough environment.

With the above considerations in mind, I used the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to come up with the following dough formulation:

Total Formula:
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
Salt (1.5%):
Oil (7.2%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (168.9%):

Preferment (Ischia):
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

374.81 g  |  13.22 oz | 0.83 lbs
209.89 g  |  7.4 oz | 0.46 lbs
5.62 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.17 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
26.99 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
15.74 g | 0.56 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.95 tsp | 1.32 tbsp
633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
41.23 g | 1.45 oz | 0.09 lbs
52.47 g | 1.85 oz | 0.12 lbs
93.7 g | 3.31 oz | 0.21 lbs

 
333.58 g | 11.77 oz | 0.74 lbs
157.42 g | 5.55 oz | 0.35 lbs
5.62 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.17 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
93.7 g | 3.31 oz | 0.21 lbs
26.99 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
15.74 g | 0.56 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.95 tsp | 1.32 tbsp
633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs  | TF = N/A
Note: For a 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.142915; preferment is an Ischia preferment and the quantity = 25% of the weight of the formula flour; the preferment water = 56% of the preferment; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As noted in the above table, for purposes of the experiment, I decided to use my Ischia culture, which is one of the most popular on the forum. Since my Ischia culture had been in the refrigerator for a long time without being used, I found it necessary to “wash” it. I did this over a period of about four days using the washing method described by Ed Wood in his book Classic Sourdoughs. I discovered very quickly how difficult and time consuming it can be to resurrect a Rip Van Winkle starter culture and how much flour and water can be consumed by the wash operation. I was able to revive the culture and get a lot of bubbling, and it had a wonderful wheaty aroma, but it did not climb out of the Mason jar as I would ordinarily expect. I decided to use the culture anyway and, to compensate for its lack of virility, to use it at the rate of 25% of the weight of the formula rather than the usual 15-20% quantity that I have used in the past with other types of dough.

For those who do not have a digital scale but have the standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of flour in the Final Dough part of the above table, 11.77 oz., converts to 2 c. + ½ c. + 2 T. + a bit over 1 1/8 t. The conversions are based on using the Textbook method of measurement as defined in Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The 5.55 oz. of water in the Final Dough part of the above table converts to ½ c. + 2 T. + 2 t. The level of the water in the measuring cup should be viewed at eye level with the measuring cup on a flat surface.

To prepare the dough, I started by adding the water, at a room temperature of about 82 degrees F, to the mixer bowl of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer. I then added the salt and sugar to the mixer bowl and stirred to dissolve, about 30 seconds. This was followed by adding the Ischia preferment, which was stirred to incorporate, about 30 seconds. I then added the oil to the mixer bowl. With the flat beater attached and the mixer operating at stir speed, I gradually added the King Arthur bread flour, which I had previously sifted, to the mixer bowl.

After the dough mass pulled away from the sides of the mixer bowl and gathered around the flat beater, I cleared the dough mass from the flat beater and switched to the C-hook. The dough at this point was scrappy and on the wet and sticky side. The dough was then kneaded for 5 minutes at speed 2. At the conclusion of the five-minute knead, the dough was still on the wet and sticky side. So, upon removal from the mixer bowl, I used the “punch and fold” method to help reduce the stickiness. This method has been described many times before, particularly in the context of the Neapolitan style, and is demonstrated in Images 4a-4c at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm. I did not use any bench flour, and the dough, while soft and malleable, was dry after the punch-and-fold method and easy to shape into a round ball. The dough ball was allowed to rest (riposo) for 15 minutes. The finished dough weight of the dough ball was 22.05 ounces, and the finished dough temperature (before the riposo) was 84.7 degrees F.

The dough ball was then lightly coated with oil (soybean oil) and placed in a lightly-oiled one-quart Pyrex glass bowl. I then placed two poppy seeds 1” apart at the top/center part of the dough ball. As described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html, the use of the poppy seeds was to be able to monitor the volume expansion of the dough during the fermentation period. The dough ball in the Pyrex bowl was then covered (with the plastic Pyrex bowl lid with a small opening in the center) and placed in the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 4 1/2 days. From the change in spacing between the two poppy seeds, I estimated that the dough had risen by only 10-15% while in the refrigerator. After the 4 ½-day fermentation period, I decided to prepare the dough for use. So, the dough was brought to room temperature to warm up and, hopefully, expand considerably more in volume. This took much longer than I had expected. It took about 20 hours at room temperature before the dough started to rise noticeably. But, by four more hours, the dough had doubled in volume (the poppy seed spacing had increased from 1” to about 1.25”). Because of other commitments, I was not able to use the dough at that precise time, so I put the dough ball back into the refrigerator for about four more hours. I then used the dough to prepare a pizza.

To prep the dough for use, I let it sit at room temperature for about a half hour to warm up. As with my past experiments in this thread, I coated the dough ball with my Dustinator clone blend of semolina flour, white flour, and soybean oil. I was able to easily shape and stretch the dough to a 14” skin and to place it on my 14” pizza screen. As before, I flattened the edges of the skin on the screen to minimize the creation of a large rim during baking. To dress the pizza, I used about 5.5 ounces (by weight) of the Wal-Mart Great Value version of the PJ clone sauce (described at Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg59208.html#msg59208); a blend of a deli whole-milk mozzarella cheese and Best Choice brand of low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese (a total weight of nine ounces) that I had diced in my food processor; and 44 Hormel pepperoni slices. To reduce the fat content of the pepperoni slices, I had placed them between sheets of paper towels and microwaved them for about 10 seconds. Pressing the slices between the sheets of paper towels absorbed the released fats (this reduced the weight of the pepperoni slices from 81 grams to 73 grams, or about 2.4 ounces total). The total weight of the unbaked pizza was about 39 ounces.

The pizza on the screen was baked at the lowest oven rack position at around 525 degrees F for about eight minutes. When I saw that the bottom crust of the pizza had not browned sufficiently, I removed the pizza screen from the oven and allowed the pizza to bake directly on the lowest oven rack for about another minute or two. This provided the normal bottom crust coloration. When I weighed the baked pizza upon removal from the oven, it weighed 34.6 ounces. This represented a loss during baking of about 11.5%. This was greater than usual and no doubt was because of the increased total baking time.

The photos below show the finished pizza. Overall, I thought the results were very good and, under the circumstances, exceeded my expectations. The pizza had the typical soft and tender, somewhat pasty crumb of an authentic PJ pizza, but with a crumb texture that was characteristic of a classic sourdough crumb. The size and shape of the pizza and the appearance of the pizza overall were in line with a real PJ pizza. I didn’t detect the usual degree of sweetness of the crust but that is something that should be easy to correct by simply increasing the amount of sugar in the dough formulation. The major differences were in the rim and in the flavor of the crust. The rim was a bit chewy and crispy, which are characteristics that are often achieved when using a preferment. I actually liked those characteristics even though they are not part of the PJ signature crust. The crust flavor was a bit on the tangy side, with a flavor profile characteristic of a naturally-leavened dough that has been fermented for a long time (in my case, a total of close to six days). Not everyone likes sourdough flavors in their pizza crusts so that is something to keep in mind when considering using a natural preferment for this style of pizza, with particular attention being given to the total fermentation time.

The results I achieved demonstrated not only that it is possible to successfully make a naturally-leavened American style dough but that it should also be possible to improve the finished results by using a natural culture that is at its peak performance level. Even with my Ischia preferment at less than peak performance level, it was possible to achieve good results, albeit at the expense of a long period of fermentation at room temperature. Fortunately, the two poppy seeds told me when the time came to use the dough.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2008, 03:23:25 PM »
And..."in the box"...

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2008, 07:44:19 PM »
Nice work as usual Peter.  They would be shocked over at the PJ camp.  So the next logical progression would be the same day naturally leavened PJ clone right?  I have given up on a long cold fermentation with starters completely.  Worst case is I let them get ~75% or so done then stall them in the fridge,  for hopefully under 12 hours,  then bring them back up to room temp.  Anyhow,  its always good reading when you post and something can always be absorbed from the different approaches you take to the different styles.   -marc

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2008, 08:24:19 PM »
Marc,

Thank you. I suspect that the scientists in the Papa John's test kitchens aren't trying to figure out how to make a naturally-leavened version of their dough, although I did intentionally use the cold fermentation/room temperature fermentation combination just to see if it would fit the business model that PJ now uses. For same day fermentation, I think that using small amounts of commercial yeast would be more reliable than trying to do the same with an entirely natural starter culture. Using a commercial preferment version, like a poolish, would likewise be easier to accomplish, as I demonstrated but didn't post the dough formulation, although the final attributes aren't likely to be commensurate with a real PJ dough/crust. I like playing around with concepts and ideas that relate to dough and to take a basic recipe and transform it in several ways to produce different but usable versions. I think I have pretty much covered the landscape with the PJ dough recipe although I think it would be interesting to try a 24-hour room temperature fermentation using a natural starter culture.

Peter

 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 08:12:57 AM by Pete-zza »


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2008, 03:47:43 AM »
Ok looking at your pizzas I can see one distinct problem with your clones.. the stretching of the crust.. PJs makes a crust with a raised edge on its crusts..specifically for dipping into the garlic butter thats sent with the pizzas... going through their mngmt training correctly stretching the dough is pounded into your head.
When the dough is placed in front of you for stretching you place your fingers at the top edge and "roll it toward yourself creating a ridge thats about 3/4 wide..you the trun the dough slightly and repete until youve went completely around the dough ball..now you stretch out the dough by hand without ever pressing down on the ridge you have made..once strecthed out the ridge should be approx 1/2 inch thicker than the center of the pizza.. when saucing and topping..leave the edge clean.. It creates a 'breadstick' around the edge for dipping...
I met John Schnatter in Fl a few years ago for a managers annual meeting..he really seems to be a nice guy and he is religious about pizza..The guy who drove papa john from the airport said that on the way to the meeting he was made to go to one of the tomato fields and park so john could stopwatch the pickers and trucks..the tomatos are supposed to be 4 hours or ess from vine to can..hes a freak about freshness

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2008, 10:56:58 AM »
jiminvegas,

Thanks for your comments. As I previously mentioned, the photos at the PJ website show distinct rims but I did not see the PJ workers in the store I visited form distinct rims in the skins in the manner you indicated. Also, the diced cheese was tossed over the entire pizzas, with some of it spilling over the edges and falling through the rails on which the pizzas were dressed.

Do you know offhand how much dough, by weight, is used to make a 14" pizza, or any other size?

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2008, 11:14:45 AM »
Its been several years..I dont recall the weights

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2008, 10:07:26 PM »
It came to my attention recently on another thread that Peter Reinhart has a dough recipe in his book American Pie for an American style pizza. For those who have the book, the recipe appears at pages 116-117.

After studying the recipe and after converting it to baker’s percent format, I concluded that the recipe was similar in several respects to the Papa John’s dough formulations that I have used to make PJ clone doughs and pizzas. The principal similarities are the use of large amounts of sugar and oil. A significant difference, however, is that the Reinhart recipe calls for using milk, either whole or low-fat milk. I have done some limited experimentation with the use of milk products, both wet and dry, in pizza doughs, but not where the milk constituted a major component of the dough—in this case, more milk than water. I thought it would be instructive and fun to try using milk at higher levels and to observe the effects of doing so.

For my purposes, I decided to make a Reinhart American style dough of the same general weight as I have used to make PJ dough clones (21 ounces for a 14” pizza) and to use the same dough preparation methods that I have previously used for such clones. That way, I would be able to better compare the results with the past PJ clone pizzas that I have made. The form of milk I decided to use was whole milk. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, the specific dough formulation I ended up with was the following:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (27.8182%):
IDY (0.94444%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (8.54398%):
Sugar (5.625%):
Whole Milk (fresh) (37.6249%):
Total (182.30652%):
331.46 g  |  11.69 oz | 0.73 lbs
92.21 g  |  3.25 oz | 0.2 lbs
3.13 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
5.8 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
28.32 g | 1 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.24 tsp | 2.08 tbsp
18.64 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.68 tsp | 1.56 tbsp
124.71 g | 4.4 oz | 0.27 lbs | 8.31 tbsp | 0.52 cups
604.28 g | 21.32 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.136419; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

There are a couple things that should be noted from the above formulation. First, the stated hydration, at about 28%, represents only a part of the total hydration. The milk, which constitutes about 88% water, also contributes to the total formula hydration. In my case, when I accounted for the water content of the milk, the total effective hydration became almost 61%. Second, the milk also contains some fat and sugar. When I adjusted the dough formulation to account for that fat and sugar, the baker’s percents for those two ingredients became 9.8% and 7.6%, respectively. I used the nutrition data for whole milk at the nutritiondata.com website to do the above conversions.

The Reinhart recipe as it appears in his cookbook is stated to be usable to make a same day dough or a cold fermented dough. I elected to make a one-day cold fermented dough. I also decided to make the dough by hand, simply as a change of pace from my normal KitchenAid mixing regimen. In general, I used many of the hand kneading tips that I recently described at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7339.msg63586.html#msg63586.

To prepare the dough, I started by sifting the flour (King Arthur bread flour) and stirring in the IDY. I then added the water and milk to a separate mixing bowl. The water and milk were both at refrigerator temperatures. The water temperature was about 44 degrees F and the milk temperature was about 48 degrees F. I used the water and milk cold because I did not want the dough to warm up and ferment too quickly, especially with the high amount of yeast (about 0.94%) used in the dough formulation that in itself would cause the dough to ferment quickly, even while in the refrigerator. I then added the salt and sugar to the mixing bowl and stirred to dissolve, about 45 seconds. Then I added the oil to the mixing bowl, followed by the flour/yeast mixture that was added to the mixing bowl a few tablespoons at a time. To improve the hydration of the flour at the early stages, I used a metal whisk to combine the ingredients after each addition of the flour/IDY mixture. The whisk I used is the one shown at the top of the photo at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786. However, any suitable whisk should do. When the whisk bogged down, I switched to a sturdy wooden spoon. When I could no longer easily mix the dough ingredients with the spoon, I emptied the contents of the mixing bowl onto a wooden work surface that I had lightly dusted with a small amount of the remaining flour/yeast mixture.

I gradually added the remaining flour/yeast mixture to the dough mass and kneaded it into the dough after each such addition. I used a bench knife to do a good part of the kneading while the dough was on the wet side. The bench knife I used is like the one shown at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/items/Bakers_Bench_Knife but any bench knife can be used, even the plastic ones (as shown, for example, at http://www.bakedeco.com/dept.asp?id=194). When the dough unduly stuck to my fingers and to the work surface after kneading in all of the flour/yeast mixture, I found it necessary to add about one teaspoon more of flour. To insure that I did not add too much additional flour, I added it in increments of ¼-teaspoon. I then kneaded the dough by hand, without using the bench knife, until the dough was smooth, soft and supple yet a bit on the tacky side, about 8 minutes. When the dough was done, it had a finished dough weight of about 21 ounces and a finished dough temperature of about 74 degrees F. The dough ball was clearly of good quality and texture. After coating the dough ball with a bit of oil, I placed it in a one-quart glass Pyrex bowl. To monitor the expansion of the dough during its fermentation, I used the poppy seed application as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. The container of dough was then covered with its mating plastic lid (with a small opening in the center to allow release of fermentation gases) and placed in the refrigerator for 24 hours.

From observing the change in spacing of the two poppy seeds during fermentation, I saw that the dough increased in volume by about 42% after two hours and by almost 68% after four hours. I expected this behavior because of the large amount of yeast in the dough formulation. By the next morning, after about 16 hours of refrigeration, the dough had doubled in volume and was pushing gently against the lid. However, the lid remained firmly fixed. I kept the dough in the refrigerator for a total of 24 hours. After letting the dough warm up at room temperature of around 68 degrees F for about 90 minutes, I used the dough to make the pizza. As before, during shaping of the dough into a skin, I used my clone “Dustinator” flour blend consisting of semolina flour, white flour and a bit of vegetable oil worked into the two flours.

The dough handled very well on the bench, with a good balance of elasticity and extensibility. It was equal to or better than many machine kneaded doughs I have made. I used my dough docker, as is done at Papa John’s stores, but it really wasn’t necessary. I had no problems whatsoever in shaping and stretching the dough out to 14”, the size of my pizza screen. Once I placed the skin onto the screen, I formed a distinct rim at the outer edge of the skin to see if it would remain distinct in the finished crust (it pretty much did). I then dressed the pizza using about 4 ½ ounces of the PJ clone sauce such as described at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg57044.html#msg57044, about 10 ounces of diced low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, and 44 slices of Hormel pepperoni. The total weight of the unbaked pizza was about 39 ounces, or about the same as many of the unbaked PJ clone pizzas I have previously made and reported on in this thread.

The pizza was baked, on the screen, on the lowest oven rack position, at a temperature of about 500 degrees F. It took about 8 minutes for the pizza to bake. The photos below show the finished pizza.

Overall, I would say that the pizza turned out quite well. However, it did not remind me of either a real PJ pepperoni pizza that I have purchased or one of my clone PJ pepperoni pizzas. There were several differences but the biggest difference was the texture of the crust and crumb. Rather than having a stretchy crumb, the crust and crumb were fluffy and cottony soft. Even the exterior of the rim was soft rather than crispy, with little resistance to the tooth. The bottom of the crust likewise lacked crispiness. The crust coloration, however, was deeper than I have seen with the purchased PJ pizzas or what I have achieved with my own PJ dough clone formulations. No doubt the deeper crust coloration was due to the high levels of sugar (table sugar) and the effects of the natural lactose sugars in the milk. The lactose sugars are not metabolized by the yeast and thus remain as residual sugar at the time of baking to contribute to crust color development.

Although I preferred my clone PJ pizzas to the Reinhart American style pizza, I learned a lot about what large amounts of milk can do to a finished crust, especially to the crust and crumb texture and to the crust coloration. So, if a Papa John’s clone pizza is the objective, it is perhaps a good idea not to use milk in the dough formulation.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 09:01:43 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline JConk007

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2008, 10:26:17 PM »
PETE,
You've got me so intrigued on this topic that I am heading to Pj's tomo. I found 1 only like 10 min from my office! I don't recall ever trying this chain but you sure have put some time into it and its recreation. I'll let you know what I think.

By the way this sits right next to  a P_hut  and another across the street (uses pillsbury flour and quite good) and anyjer 8 pizzerias within 2 Miles! and I have tried em all!
John
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 10:28:50 PM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2008, 10:39:03 PM »
I don't recall ever trying this chain but you sure have put some time into it and its recreation.

John,

I have a three-ring binder with documents devoted just to Papa John's and all the research and experiments I have conducted. It is 71 pages long at this point. I started the whole exercise just to see how far I could go with it. I really wasn't a big fan of PJ pizzas when I first started but after a while they started to grow on me, even my own versions. The most fun was taking the original PJ clone formulation in several different directions and getting good results doing so.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2008, 11:51:29 AM »
It never ceases to amaze me how much I learn from the various doughs that I make. The most recent example was a Papa John’s dough clone that I started just before Thanksgiving. My intent in making this dough clone was to start it before Thanksgiving, refrigerate it, and use it upon return from an out-of-town trip over the Thanksgiving holiday. To satisfy this objective, I created the dough formulation so that the dough would be usable after about six days of cold fermentation. To make the dough, I used the basic PJ dough clone formulation as described elsewhere in this thread. However, I made two changes to increase the likelihood of the dough lasting six days. First, I lowered the hydration to 55% so that the rate of fermentation would be slightly reduced while still permitting a dough with sufficient viscosity and good handling qualities. Second, and more importantly, I substituted active dry yeast (ADY) for the instant dry yeast (IDY). However, rather than rehydrating the ADY in warm water as I normally do (and recommend to others), I used it dry without rehydration. In my case, I simply mixed the ADY in with the flour. The idea for doing this was not new. It is an old baker’s tip that was brought to my attention on separate occasions by members giotto and petesopizza. The reason for using the ADY dry was to slow down the rate of fermentation. By so doing, the window of usability of the dough would be extended.

The basic PJ dough clone formulation that I modified is the following one, as provided by the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

King Arthur Bread Flour (sifted) (100%):
Water (55%):
ADY (0.30%):
Salt (1.50%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (168.3%):
359.05 g  |  12.66 oz | 0.79 lbs
197.48 g  |  6.97 oz | 0.44 lbs
1.08 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
5.39 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
26.21 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.77 tsp | 1.92 tbsp
15.08 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.78 tsp | 1.26 tbsp
604.28 g | 21.32 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Nominal dough ball weight = 21 oz. (for a 14” pizza) and a nominal thickness factor of 0.136419; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As noted in the above table, I elected to use the King Arthur bread flour (KABF), which I have used with good results with the various PJ dough clones made to date. The only thing I did to the flour was to sift it. This is my standard practice and was done to improve the hydration of the flour. For those who do not have a bowl sieve or a hand crank sieve, the sifting step can be omitted. 

For those who do not have a scale but have a standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of flour specified in the above table, 12.66 ounces, converts to 2 c. + ½ c. + 1/3 c.  These volume measurements are based on using the “Textbook” method of measurement as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The 6.97 ounces of water in the above table converts to ½ c. + 1/3 c. The level of water in the measuring cup should be viewed at eye level with the cup on a flat surface. These conversions were derived by using member November’s Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/

To prepare the dough, I started by combining the ADY (dry) with the flour. I then added the formula water (I used spring water), at room temperature (about 65 degrees F), to the mixer bowl of my standard KitchenAid stand mixer. Next, I added the salt and sugar, and stirred to dissolve, about 45 seconds. I then added the oil. With the flat paddle attachment secured, and the mixer at stir speed, I gradually added the flour/ADY mixture to the bowl, a few tablespoons at a time. I did this until the bulk of the flour/ADY was roughly incorporated with the rest of the ingredients in the bowl and the dough pulled away from the sides of the bowl and collected around the paddle attachment, about a minute. There was a small amount of the flour that was not taken up into the dough mass, reflecting the reduced hydration of the dough, so I simply removed the dough mass from the flat beater attachment and incorporated the remaining dry flour into the dough mass by hand. I then replaced the paddle attachment with the C-hook and kneaded the dough mass, at speed 2, for about 6 minutes. The dough mass was then kneaded and shaped into a round dough ball by hand, about 30 seconds. The dough ball was not quite as supple as previous PJ clone doughs, and a bit dryer, but it was of good quality and consistency. The finished dough weight was 21.2 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 73 degrees F.

The dough was then lightly coated with vegetable oil. In order to monitor the rise of the dough during the fermentation period, I used the “poppy seed trick” as previously described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. In line with that method, I placed two poppy seeds one inch apart on the middle of the top of the dough ball. The first photo below shows the finished dough, including the two spaced-apart poppy seeds. The finished dough was placed in a tall, clear plastic Food Saver container. For a cover for that container, I used the plastic lid that I normally use with my one-quart Pyrex glass bowl. The lid, with a small opening in the center to allow gases of fermentation to escape while retaining the moisture of condensation, fit perfectly with the Food Saver container. The second photo below shows the dough within that container.

The dough within its container was then placed in the refrigerator. After four days, upon my return from my Thanksgiving trip, much to my surprise I observed that the dough had not risen in any noticeable manner while I was away (the spacing between the two poppy seeds was virtually unchanged). So, I decided to let the dough ferment for a few more days in the refrigerator. After a total of eight days, again much to my surprise, I detected only a slight increase in the volume of the dough, maybe 5-10% at most. I decided at this point to bring the dough to room temperature (about 65 degrees F) to see if the dough would rise once warmed up. This worked, and the dough gradually started to increase in volume. After about eight hours, the dough increased in volume by about 67.5% (based on the increase in spacing between the two poppy seeds). From this point forward, the rise stabilized. However, I decided to let the dough remain at room temperature for another two hours to develop more byproducts of fermentation that might contribute to more crust flavor. The third photo below shows the dough at this stage. As can be seen in that photo, the dough exhibited some spotting, as is quite common with long, cold-fermented doughs after several days.

I then shaped and stretched the dough into a 14” skin. I had no trouble doing this. The dough was extensible but easy to work with. Consequently, I saw no need to use a dough docker, as is used at Papa John stores. As with prior PJ clone efforts, the bench flour was the clone Dustinator blend of semolina, white flour and a few drops of soybean oil that I worked into the two flours.

Once the 14” skin was placed onto a 14” pizza screen, I formed a rim at the outer edge of the skin, as I understand is the Papa John method (although not observed in any of the pizzas I have bought from Papa John stores). The pizza was dressed in basic pepperoni style with about 5 ounces of sauce, 9 ounces of low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese (Best Choice brand) that I had finely diced in my Cuisinart food processor, and about 2.2 ounces of pepperoni slices (the small Hormel pepperoni slices). The sauce was the 6-in-1 PJ clone sauce as described at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg57044.html#msg57044. The weight of the unbaked pizza was about 38.5 ounces, which was very much in line with past PJ pepperoni pizzas described in this thread.

The pizza was baked, on the screen, on the lowest oven rack position, at a temperature of about 500 degrees F (preheated for about 15 minutes). It took about 8-9 minutes for the pizza to bake. The photos in the next post show the finished pizza. The weight of the baked pizza was about 35 ounces, representing a loss during baking of about 8.7% but still in line with prior efforts described in this thread.

Overall, the pizza was excellent. It has been a while since I have had a real PJ pepperoni pizza, but the latest PJ clone pizza had the same features and characteristics of an authentic PJ pepperoni pizza, as described in relation to the first PJ clone pizza that I described in Reply 2 in this thread, and in later versions.

In my opinion, the most significant advancement in the latest effort was the ability to extend the cold fermentation period out to eight days. Based on prior experience in making “geriatric” doughs (from all of my experiments at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251), I am quite certain that the dough could have lasted several days longer and still have been usable. The key to this result is using the ADY dry. I was sufficiently intrigued by this method to consider making a PJ clone dough that will last much longer than eight days.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:44:04 AM by Pete-zza »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2008, 11:57:04 AM »
And the photos of the finished pizza, including the "in the box" pizza....