Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 241658 times)

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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2008, 07:44:19 PM »
Nice work as usual Peter.  They would be shocked over at the PJ camp.  So the next logical progression would be the same day naturally leavened PJ clone right?  I have given up on a long cold fermentation with starters completely.  Worst case is I let them get ~75% or so done then stall them in the fridge,  for hopefully under 12 hours,  then bring them back up to room temp.  Anyhow,  its always good reading when you post and something can always be absorbed from the different approaches you take to the different styles.   -marc


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2008, 08:24:19 PM »
Marc,

Thank you. I suspect that the scientists in the Papa John's test kitchens aren't trying to figure out how to make a naturally-leavened version of their dough, although I did intentionally use the cold fermentation/room temperature fermentation combination just to see if it would fit the business model that PJ now uses. For same day fermentation, I think that using small amounts of commercial yeast would be more reliable than trying to do the same with an entirely natural starter culture. Using a commercial preferment version, like a poolish, would likewise be easier to accomplish, as I demonstrated but didn't post the dough formulation, although the final attributes aren't likely to be commensurate with a real PJ dough/crust. I like playing around with concepts and ideas that relate to dough and to take a basic recipe and transform it in several ways to produce different but usable versions. I think I have pretty much covered the landscape with the PJ dough recipe although I think it would be interesting to try a 24-hour room temperature fermentation using a natural starter culture.

Peter

 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 08:12:57 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline jiminvegas

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2008, 03:47:43 AM »
Ok looking at your pizzas I can see one distinct problem with your clones.. the stretching of the crust.. PJs makes a crust with a raised edge on its crusts..specifically for dipping into the garlic butter thats sent with the pizzas... going through their mngmt training correctly stretching the dough is pounded into your head.
When the dough is placed in front of you for stretching you place your fingers at the top edge and "roll it toward yourself creating a ridge thats about 3/4 wide..you the trun the dough slightly and repete until youve went completely around the dough ball..now you stretch out the dough by hand without ever pressing down on the ridge you have made..once strecthed out the ridge should be approx 1/2 inch thicker than the center of the pizza.. when saucing and topping..leave the edge clean.. It creates a 'breadstick' around the edge for dipping...
I met John Schnatter in Fl a few years ago for a managers annual meeting..he really seems to be a nice guy and he is religious about pizza..The guy who drove papa john from the airport said that on the way to the meeting he was made to go to one of the tomato fields and park so john could stopwatch the pickers and trucks..the tomatos are supposed to be 4 hours or ess from vine to can..hes a freak about freshness

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2008, 10:56:58 AM »
jiminvegas,

Thanks for your comments. As I previously mentioned, the photos at the PJ website show distinct rims but I did not see the PJ workers in the store I visited form distinct rims in the skins in the manner you indicated. Also, the diced cheese was tossed over the entire pizzas, with some of it spilling over the edges and falling through the rails on which the pizzas were dressed.

Do you know offhand how much dough, by weight, is used to make a 14" pizza, or any other size?

Peter

Offline jiminvegas

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2008, 11:14:45 AM »
Its been several years..I dont recall the weights

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2008, 10:07:26 PM »
It came to my attention recently on another thread that Peter Reinhart has a dough recipe in his book American Pie for an American style pizza. For those who have the book, the recipe appears at pages 116-117.

After studying the recipe and after converting it to baker’s percent format, I concluded that the recipe was similar in several respects to the Papa John’s dough formulations that I have used to make PJ clone doughs and pizzas. The principal similarities are the use of large amounts of sugar and oil. A significant difference, however, is that the Reinhart recipe calls for using milk, either whole or low-fat milk. I have done some limited experimentation with the use of milk products, both wet and dry, in pizza doughs, but not where the milk constituted a major component of the dough—in this case, more milk than water. I thought it would be instructive and fun to try using milk at higher levels and to observe the effects of doing so.

For my purposes, I decided to make a Reinhart American style dough of the same general weight as I have used to make PJ dough clones (21 ounces for a 14” pizza) and to use the same dough preparation methods that I have previously used for such clones. That way, I would be able to better compare the results with the past PJ clone pizzas that I have made. The form of milk I decided to use was whole milk. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, the specific dough formulation I ended up with was the following:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (27.8182%):
IDY (0.94444%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (8.54398%):
Sugar (5.625%):
Whole Milk (fresh) (37.6249%):
Total (182.30652%):
331.46 g  |  11.69 oz | 0.73 lbs
92.21 g  |  3.25 oz | 0.2 lbs
3.13 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
5.8 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
28.32 g | 1 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.24 tsp | 2.08 tbsp
18.64 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.68 tsp | 1.56 tbsp
124.71 g | 4.4 oz | 0.27 lbs | 8.31 tbsp | 0.52 cups
604.28 g | 21.32 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.136419; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

There are a couple things that should be noted from the above formulation. First, the stated hydration, at about 28%, represents only a part of the total hydration. The milk, which constitutes about 88% water, also contributes to the total formula hydration. In my case, when I accounted for the water content of the milk, the total effective hydration became almost 61%. Second, the milk also contains some fat and sugar. When I adjusted the dough formulation to account for that fat and sugar, the baker’s percents for those two ingredients became 9.8% and 7.6%, respectively. I used the nutrition data for whole milk at the nutritiondata.com website to do the above conversions.

The Reinhart recipe as it appears in his cookbook is stated to be usable to make a same day dough or a cold fermented dough. I elected to make a one-day cold fermented dough. I also decided to make the dough by hand, simply as a change of pace from my normal KitchenAid mixing regimen. In general, I used many of the hand kneading tips that I recently described at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7339.msg63586.html#msg63586.

To prepare the dough, I started by sifting the flour (King Arthur bread flour) and stirring in the IDY. I then added the water and milk to a separate mixing bowl. The water and milk were both at refrigerator temperatures. The water temperature was about 44 degrees F and the milk temperature was about 48 degrees F. I used the water and milk cold because I did not want the dough to warm up and ferment too quickly, especially with the high amount of yeast (about 0.94%) used in the dough formulation that in itself would cause the dough to ferment quickly, even while in the refrigerator. I then added the salt and sugar to the mixing bowl and stirred to dissolve, about 45 seconds. Then I added the oil to the mixing bowl, followed by the flour/yeast mixture that was added to the mixing bowl a few tablespoons at a time. To improve the hydration of the flour at the early stages, I used a metal whisk to combine the ingredients after each addition of the flour/IDY mixture. The whisk I used is the one shown at the top of the photo at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786. However, any suitable whisk should do. When the whisk bogged down, I switched to a sturdy wooden spoon. When I could no longer easily mix the dough ingredients with the spoon, I emptied the contents of the mixing bowl onto a wooden work surface that I had lightly dusted with a small amount of the remaining flour/yeast mixture.

I gradually added the remaining flour/yeast mixture to the dough mass and kneaded it into the dough after each such addition. I used a bench knife to do a good part of the kneading while the dough was on the wet side. The bench knife I used is like the one shown at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/items/Bakers_Bench_Knife but any bench knife can be used, even the plastic ones (as shown, for example, at http://www.bakedeco.com/dept.asp?id=194). When the dough unduly stuck to my fingers and to the work surface after kneading in all of the flour/yeast mixture, I found it necessary to add about one teaspoon more of flour. To insure that I did not add too much additional flour, I added it in increments of ¼-teaspoon. I then kneaded the dough by hand, without using the bench knife, until the dough was smooth, soft and supple yet a bit on the tacky side, about 8 minutes. When the dough was done, it had a finished dough weight of about 21 ounces and a finished dough temperature of about 74 degrees F. The dough ball was clearly of good quality and texture. After coating the dough ball with a bit of oil, I placed it in a one-quart glass Pyrex bowl. To monitor the expansion of the dough during its fermentation, I used the poppy seed application as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. The container of dough was then covered with its mating plastic lid (with a small opening in the center to allow release of fermentation gases) and placed in the refrigerator for 24 hours.

From observing the change in spacing of the two poppy seeds during fermentation, I saw that the dough increased in volume by about 42% after two hours and by almost 68% after four hours. I expected this behavior because of the large amount of yeast in the dough formulation. By the next morning, after about 16 hours of refrigeration, the dough had doubled in volume and was pushing gently against the lid. However, the lid remained firmly fixed. I kept the dough in the refrigerator for a total of 24 hours. After letting the dough warm up at room temperature of around 68 degrees F for about 90 minutes, I used the dough to make the pizza. As before, during shaping of the dough into a skin, I used my clone “Dustinator” flour blend consisting of semolina flour, white flour and a bit of vegetable oil worked into the two flours.

The dough handled very well on the bench, with a good balance of elasticity and extensibility. It was equal to or better than many machine kneaded doughs I have made. I used my dough docker, as is done at Papa John’s stores, but it really wasn’t necessary. I had no problems whatsoever in shaping and stretching the dough out to 14”, the size of my pizza screen. Once I placed the skin onto the screen, I formed a distinct rim at the outer edge of the skin to see if it would remain distinct in the finished crust (it pretty much did). I then dressed the pizza using about 4 ½ ounces of the PJ clone sauce such as described at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg57044.html#msg57044, about 10 ounces of diced low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, and 44 slices of Hormel pepperoni. The total weight of the unbaked pizza was about 39 ounces, or about the same as many of the unbaked PJ clone pizzas I have previously made and reported on in this thread.

The pizza was baked, on the screen, on the lowest oven rack position, at a temperature of about 500 degrees F. It took about 8 minutes for the pizza to bake. The photos below show the finished pizza.

Overall, I would say that the pizza turned out quite well. However, it did not remind me of either a real PJ pepperoni pizza that I have purchased or one of my clone PJ pepperoni pizzas. There were several differences but the biggest difference was the texture of the crust and crumb. Rather than having a stretchy crumb, the crust and crumb were fluffy and cottony soft. Even the exterior of the rim was soft rather than crispy, with little resistance to the tooth. The bottom of the crust likewise lacked crispiness. The crust coloration, however, was deeper than I have seen with the purchased PJ pizzas or what I have achieved with my own PJ dough clone formulations. No doubt the deeper crust coloration was due to the high levels of sugar (table sugar) and the effects of the natural lactose sugars in the milk. The lactose sugars are not metabolized by the yeast and thus remain as residual sugar at the time of baking to contribute to crust color development.

Although I preferred my clone PJ pizzas to the Reinhart American style pizza, I learned a lot about what large amounts of milk can do to a finished crust, especially to the crust and crumb texture and to the crust coloration. So, if a Papa John’s clone pizza is the objective, it is perhaps a good idea not to use milk in the dough formulation.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 09:01:43 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline JConk007

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2008, 10:26:17 PM »
PETE,
You've got me so intrigued on this topic that I am heading to Pj's tomo. I found 1 only like 10 min from my office! I don't recall ever trying this chain but you sure have put some time into it and its recreation. I'll let you know what I think.

By the way this sits right next to  a P_hut  and another across the street (uses pillsbury flour and quite good) and anyjer 8 pizzerias within 2 Miles! and I have tried em all!
John
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 10:28:50 PM by JConk007 »
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2008, 10:39:03 PM »
I don't recall ever trying this chain but you sure have put some time into it and its recreation.

John,

I have a three-ring binder with documents devoted just to Papa John's and all the research and experiments I have conducted. It is 71 pages long at this point. I started the whole exercise just to see how far I could go with it. I really wasn't a big fan of PJ pizzas when I first started but after a while they started to grow on me, even my own versions. The most fun was taking the original PJ clone formulation in several different directions and getting good results doing so.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2008, 11:51:29 AM »
It never ceases to amaze me how much I learn from the various doughs that I make. The most recent example was a Papa John’s dough clone that I started just before Thanksgiving. My intent in making this dough clone was to start it before Thanksgiving, refrigerate it, and use it upon return from an out-of-town trip over the Thanksgiving holiday. To satisfy this objective, I created the dough formulation so that the dough would be usable after about six days of cold fermentation. To make the dough, I used the basic PJ dough clone formulation as described elsewhere in this thread. However, I made two changes to increase the likelihood of the dough lasting six days. First, I lowered the hydration to 55% so that the rate of fermentation would be slightly reduced while still permitting a dough with sufficient viscosity and good handling qualities. Second, and more importantly, I substituted active dry yeast (ADY) for the instant dry yeast (IDY). However, rather than rehydrating the ADY in warm water as I normally do (and recommend to others), I used it dry without rehydration. In my case, I simply mixed the ADY in with the flour. The idea for doing this was not new. It is an old baker’s tip that was brought to my attention on separate occasions by members giotto and petesopizza. The reason for using the ADY dry was to slow down the rate of fermentation. By so doing, the window of usability of the dough would be extended.

The basic PJ dough clone formulation that I modified is the following one, as provided by the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

King Arthur Bread Flour (sifted) (100%):
Water (55%):
ADY (0.30%):
Salt (1.50%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (168.3%):
359.05 g  |  12.66 oz | 0.79 lbs
197.48 g  |  6.97 oz | 0.44 lbs
1.08 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
5.39 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
26.21 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.77 tsp | 1.92 tbsp
15.08 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.78 tsp | 1.26 tbsp
604.28 g | 21.32 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Nominal dough ball weight = 21 oz. (for a 14” pizza) and a nominal thickness factor of 0.136419; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As noted in the above table, I elected to use the King Arthur bread flour (KABF), which I have used with good results with the various PJ dough clones made to date. The only thing I did to the flour was to sift it. This is my standard practice and was done to improve the hydration of the flour. For those who do not have a bowl sieve or a hand crank sieve, the sifting step can be omitted. 

For those who do not have a scale but have a standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of flour specified in the above table, 12.66 ounces, converts to 2 c. + ½ c. + 1/3 c.  These volume measurements are based on using the “Textbook” method of measurement as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The 6.97 ounces of water in the above table converts to ½ c. + 1/3 c. The level of water in the measuring cup should be viewed at eye level with the cup on a flat surface. These conversions were derived by using member November’s Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/

To prepare the dough, I started by combining the ADY (dry) with the flour. I then added the formula water (I used spring water), at room temperature (about 65 degrees F), to the mixer bowl of my standard KitchenAid stand mixer. Next, I added the salt and sugar, and stirred to dissolve, about 45 seconds. I then added the oil. With the flat paddle attachment secured, and the mixer at stir speed, I gradually added the flour/ADY mixture to the bowl, a few tablespoons at a time. I did this until the bulk of the flour/ADY was roughly incorporated with the rest of the ingredients in the bowl and the dough pulled away from the sides of the bowl and collected around the paddle attachment, about a minute. There was a small amount of the flour that was not taken up into the dough mass, reflecting the reduced hydration of the dough, so I simply removed the dough mass from the flat beater attachment and incorporated the remaining dry flour into the dough mass by hand. I then replaced the paddle attachment with the C-hook and kneaded the dough mass, at speed 2, for about 6 minutes. The dough mass was then kneaded and shaped into a round dough ball by hand, about 30 seconds. The dough ball was not quite as supple as previous PJ clone doughs, and a bit dryer, but it was of good quality and consistency. The finished dough weight was 21.2 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 73 degrees F.

The dough was then lightly coated with vegetable oil. In order to monitor the rise of the dough during the fermentation period, I used the “poppy seed trick” as previously described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. In line with that method, I placed two poppy seeds one inch apart on the middle of the top of the dough ball. The first photo below shows the finished dough, including the two spaced-apart poppy seeds. The finished dough was placed in a tall, clear plastic Food Saver container. For a cover for that container, I used the plastic lid that I normally use with my one-quart Pyrex glass bowl. The lid, with a small opening in the center to allow gases of fermentation to escape while retaining the moisture of condensation, fit perfectly with the Food Saver container. The second photo below shows the dough within that container.

The dough within its container was then placed in the refrigerator. After four days, upon my return from my Thanksgiving trip, much to my surprise I observed that the dough had not risen in any noticeable manner while I was away (the spacing between the two poppy seeds was virtually unchanged). So, I decided to let the dough ferment for a few more days in the refrigerator. After a total of eight days, again much to my surprise, I detected only a slight increase in the volume of the dough, maybe 5-10% at most. I decided at this point to bring the dough to room temperature (about 65 degrees F) to see if the dough would rise once warmed up. This worked, and the dough gradually started to increase in volume. After about eight hours, the dough increased in volume by about 67.5% (based on the increase in spacing between the two poppy seeds). From this point forward, the rise stabilized. However, I decided to let the dough remain at room temperature for another two hours to develop more byproducts of fermentation that might contribute to more crust flavor. The third photo below shows the dough at this stage. As can be seen in that photo, the dough exhibited some spotting, as is quite common with long, cold-fermented doughs after several days.

I then shaped and stretched the dough into a 14” skin. I had no trouble doing this. The dough was extensible but easy to work with. Consequently, I saw no need to use a dough docker, as is used at Papa John stores. As with prior PJ clone efforts, the bench flour was the clone Dustinator blend of semolina, white flour and a few drops of soybean oil that I worked into the two flours.

Once the 14” skin was placed onto a 14” pizza screen, I formed a rim at the outer edge of the skin, as I understand is the Papa John method (although not observed in any of the pizzas I have bought from Papa John stores). The pizza was dressed in basic pepperoni style with about 5 ounces of sauce, 9 ounces of low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese (Best Choice brand) that I had finely diced in my Cuisinart food processor, and about 2.2 ounces of pepperoni slices (the small Hormel pepperoni slices). The sauce was the 6-in-1 PJ clone sauce as described at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg57044.html#msg57044. The weight of the unbaked pizza was about 38.5 ounces, which was very much in line with past PJ pepperoni pizzas described in this thread.

The pizza was baked, on the screen, on the lowest oven rack position, at a temperature of about 500 degrees F (preheated for about 15 minutes). It took about 8-9 minutes for the pizza to bake. The photos in the next post show the finished pizza. The weight of the baked pizza was about 35 ounces, representing a loss during baking of about 8.7% but still in line with prior efforts described in this thread.

Overall, the pizza was excellent. It has been a while since I have had a real PJ pepperoni pizza, but the latest PJ clone pizza had the same features and characteristics of an authentic PJ pepperoni pizza, as described in relation to the first PJ clone pizza that I described in Reply 2 in this thread, and in later versions.

In my opinion, the most significant advancement in the latest effort was the ability to extend the cold fermentation period out to eight days. Based on prior experience in making “geriatric” doughs (from all of my experiments at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251), I am quite certain that the dough could have lasted several days longer and still have been usable. The key to this result is using the ADY dry. I was sufficiently intrigued by this method to consider making a PJ clone dough that will last much longer than eight days.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:44:04 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2008, 11:57:04 AM »
And the photos of the finished pizza, including the "in the box" pizza....



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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2008, 02:43:18 PM »
Great photos once again Peter.

So now the obvious question becomes, what other recipes would you consider using the dry ADY yeast  as part of the recipe?  :chef:
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2008, 03:56:09 PM »
So now the obvious question becomes, what other recipes would you consider using the dry ADY yeast as part of the recipe?  :chef:

M_E,

Thanks.

I think the dry use of ADY may have general application for standard types of doughs like the American style and a NY style but I would have to do some tests to prove out the method in a more general sense. I would not recommend that others use dry ADY for more normal circumstances. I would use the dry ADY method only to extend the useful life of a dough. As I previously demonstrated at the thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251, there are also ways of using IDY to achieve long useful dough lives. Whether one type of yeast is better than the other to get a long dough life is something that would have to be tested.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2009, 07:39:09 AM »
I noticed recently that some members have indicated interest in a so-called “short-time” or “emergency” dough for the American style pizza, such as a Papa John’s American style. That got me to wondering whether I could come up with a quality clone dough formulation for the Papa John’s style where the dough would be allowed to rise for only a couple of hours after being made and then be promptly used to make a pizza. Specifically, I targeted the time for fermenting the dough at only two hours, at room temperature. I thought also that it might be helpful to those without mixing equipment to make the dough by hand and to provide detailed instructions for using this method. Of course, as with other PJ clone doughs discussed in this thread, a stand mixer can also be used.

After giving the matter of an emergency PJ clone dough a fair amount of thought, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the following “emergency” dough formulation:

King Arthur Bread Flour/VWG Blend (100%):
Water (56.5%):
IDY (0.80%):
Salt (1.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Honey (5%):
Total (171.1%):
371.81 g  |  13.12 oz | 0.82 lbs
210.07 g  |  7.41 oz | 0.46 lbs
2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
27.14 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.98 tsp | 1.99 tbsp
18.59 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.66 tsp | 0.89 tbsp
636.17 g | 22.44 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The King Arthur Bread Flour/VWG blend comprises 361.46 g. (12.75 oz.) of King Arthur bread flour and 10.35 g. (0.37 oz.) of Hodgson brand vital wheat gluten (3.45 t.); the formulation is for 22 oz. of dough for a 14” pizza with a nominal thickness factor of 0.14291 and a bowl residue compensation of 2%

As noted in the above table, I used a combination of King Arthur bread flour and vital wheat gluten (VWG). I decided to use the VWG for both its contribution to crust flavor and coloration, as well as increasing the protein content of the King Arthur bread flour. The amount of VWG used, almost 3 ½ teaspoons, was calculated (using member November’s Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/) to increase the protein content of the King Arthur bread flour from 12.7% to 14.2%, which is the protein content of a standard high-gluten flour, such as the King Arthur Sir Lancelot and All Trumps high-gluten flours. For those who prefer to use the Bob’s Red Mill brand of VWG, the amount to use is 8.95 g. (0.32 oz.), or about 3.59 t., with the balance (362.86 g., or 12.80 oz.) being the King Arthur bread flour.

As is common with emergency doughs, I also substantially increased the amount of yeast--to about double the normal amount that I would use this time of year for a cold fermented dough. In my case, I used 0.80% IDY.

I also decided to substitute honey for the sugar in the basic PJ clone dough formulation. I decided on the use of honey because it contains simple sugars (like glucose and fructose) that can be metabolized almost immediately by the yeast. By contrast, ordinary table sugar (sucrose) requires conversion to simple sugars before being usable as food by the yeast and to contribute to crust coloration, which can take a fair amount of time, usually considerably longer than the short fermentation period (2 hours in this case) used for the emergency dough. Moreover, since yeast metabolizes honey more slowly than complex sugars, I felt that there would be more residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking to contribute to crust coloration, resulting in a deeper crust color. I also felt that using honey would improve the rheology (flow) characteristics of the dough and make it easier to handle. In using the VWG and the honey, which includes about 17% water, I adjusted the hydration value of the dough formulation to reflect the use of such ingredients. Also, because I was hand kneading the dough, I used a bowl residue compensation of 2% to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough. Normally, for a KitchenAid machine made dough, I would use 1.5%.

For those who do not have a scale but have a standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of the King Arthur bread flour used in the KABF/VWG blend, 12.75 ounces, translates to 2 c. + ½ c. + 1/3 c. + 1 T. + 1/14 t. This conversion to volume measurements is based on using the “Textbook” method of flour measurement as defined in Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The actual conversion data comes from member November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. As noted above, the amount of VWG, the Hodgson brand, is about 3 ½ t and a bit more for the Bob’s Red Mill brand. In the absence of VWG, it is possible to use only bread flour. In that case, the 13.12 ounces of flour converts to 3 c., again using the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator.

The amount of formula water from the above table, 7.41 ounces, converts volumetrically to ½ c. + 1/3 c. + 2 5/8 t. The water in the measuring cup(s) should be viewed at eye level with the measuring cup(s) on a flat surface.

To prepare the dough, I started by using a standard bowl sieve to sift the King Arthur bread flour into a first bowl. The purpose of sifting the flour is to improve its hydration. If one does not have a bowl sieve, a hand crank sifter can be used. I then stirred the VWG and the IDY into the flour. In a second bowl, I added the water (spring water) along with the honey and the salt, and stirred to combine, about 45 seconds. As is common with emergency doughs, I used an elevated water temperature. In my case, I used 125 degrees F (51.7 degrees C). Water at that temperature also helps dissolve the honey. The oil was then added to the water/salt/honey mixture.

I then gradually added the flour mixture to the ingredients in the second bowl, a few tablespoons at a time, and mixed using a whisk to aerate the flour/liquid mixture and improve its hydration. Any suitable whisk can be used but the whisk I used is the one shown at the top of the photo at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786. I used the whisk until it bogged down as the dough mass stiffened. I then switched to a sturdy wooden spoon and continued to add, and to mix in, the flour mixture. When the spoon bogged down, I emptied the contents of the bowl onto a work surface, where I kneaded in the rest of the flour mixture by hand on that work surface. The dough was on the dry side at the beginning of the hand knead, so I added about another teaspoon of water, in increments of a quarter teaspoon. After about 9-10 minutes of hand kneading, and with the help of a bench knife (e.g., such as shown at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/detail.jsp?id=8397), all of the flour mixture had been worked into the dough, and the dough was smooth and cohesive.

The final dough had a weight of 21.87 ounces and a finished dough temperature of 73 degrees F (22.8 degrees C). Normally, I would try to achieve a finished dough temperature for an emergency dough of around 85-90 degrees F (29.4-32.2 degrees C) but since my kitchen temperature was around 65 degrees F (18.3 degrees C) and I was using hand kneading, which does not add much heat to the dough, the best I could achieve under the circumstances was 73 degrees F. However, as things turned out, that was not a problem or issue at all.

Once the dough was done, I shaped it into a round ball, coated it lightly with vegetable oil (soybean oil), and placed it into a covered transparent plastic container. To monitor the progress of the dough during the rise (fermentation) period, I used the “poppy seed trick” as previously described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. I placed two poppy seeds one inch apart on the middle of the top of the dough ball and periodically measured the increase in the spacing between the two poppy seeds. Using that method, I observed that it took only one hour for the dough to roughly double. By the end of the second hour, the dough had more than tripled in volume.

At this point, I decided to use the dough to make the pizza. I gently flattened the dough with my fingers and coated it on both sides with my home-made “Dustinator” clone of semolina flour, white flour, and a bit of vegetable oil (soybean oil) that I had worked into the two flours using my fingers. I then docked the flattened dough on one side using a dough docker such as is done in Papa John’s stores. The particular dough docker I used is shown in Reply 389 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg26720.html#msg26720. For those who do not have a dough docker, an ordinary kitchen fork can be used, but care should be taken as not to completely penetrate the dough skin. After docking the dough skin, I shaped and stretched it out to 14”. The dough was fairly nicely balanced between elasticity and extensibility, with a slight bias toward elasticity, but was easy to work with. I was even able to toss the skin pretty much with impunity. Overall, this skin was most like the ones I saw in the Papa John’s stores in terms of the workability of the skin. I believe that this was due to the use of a relatively low hydration and the effects of the honey and oil on the plasticity of the dough.

The skin was then placed on a 14” pizza screen. I formed a rim at the perimeter and dressed it in standard pepperoni fashion. As with other PJ pepperoni clone pizzas I have previously made, I used about 5 ounces of pizza sauce, 9 ounces of diced low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, and 44 Hormel pepperoni slices that I had first “nuked” in my microwave unit to reduce their fat content. The sauce I used is the PJ clone sauce as described at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg57044.html#msg57044, as modified by the updated instructions as given at Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg66292.html#msg66292. The unbaked pizza weighed 38.5 ounces, which was in line with the other PJ pepperoni clone pizzas I have made.

The dressed pizza was baked, on the screen, on the lowest oven rack position of my electric oven, which had been preheated for about 15 minutes (the final 15 minutes of the two-hour dough rise period) at a temperature of about 500 degrees F (260 degrees C). It took about 7-8 minutes to bake the pizza.

The photos below show the finished pizza. As can be seen in the photos, the crust had very good coloration, which was something I was hoping to see. Although not shown, the bottom crust was also of very good--and uniform--coloration. While the finished crust and crumb were softer, less developed, and more bread-like than the other PJ clone pizzas I have made and reported on in this thread, and not as chewy and crispy, perhaps due to the more hygroscopic nature of the honey and its tendency to produce a more tender crust and crumb, the overall pizza was quite good—surprisingly so, in fact. Its overall appearance and weight were also very much in line with an authentic PJ pepperoni pizza. And the flavors, including the characteristic sweetness of the PJ crust, were pretty much on target. I wouldn’t rank the pizza as highly as the other PJ clone pizzas previously described in this thread, but for a two-hour dough, it delivers quite a bit in terms of eating satisfaction.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:42:52 AM by Pete-zza »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2009, 07:42:39 AM »
And, "in the box"...

Peter

Offline salvador

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2009, 09:00:59 PM »
nice pizza pete, do you use flour to spread your skins?

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2009, 09:20:37 PM »
nice pizza pete, do you use flour to spread your skins?

salvador,

I used my own version of a flour mixture that is used at Papa John's stores, called Dustinator. It is a blend of white flour, semolina flour and soybean oil. You can see how it is used by going to this YouTube video: . It would be possible to use just plain white flour, but the blend adds flavor and texture to the dough. I was trying to come as close as possible to the way that Papa John's makes its pizzas, so using the Dustinator clone blend was part of that effort. The two-hour dough that was used to make the last pizza was my own idea. You are not likely to see anything like that at a Papa John's store.

Peter

Offline loowaters

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2009, 10:35:10 AM »
Peter, I made this last week and thought it turned out great but picture taking wasn't the priority, eating was. 

Your Dustinator clone?  Are you using equal parts flour and semolina?  How do you incorporate the oil to evenly distribute it without gumming up the dry blend?

Loo
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2009, 12:05:51 PM »
Loo,

I normally don't try to encourage people to make "emergency" doughs but I appreciate that there is a place for such doughs on "rare" occasion. I am pleased to hear that the recipe worked out well for you.

As for the "Dustinator" clone blend, it is my best estimate of what Papa John's lists in their own ingredients documents. The listed ingredients are, in order, semolina flour, wheat flour, and soybean oil. I have never seen relative weights of those ingredients so I simply take a fistful of semolina flour and a lesser amount of white flour, blend them together by hand, and put a few drizzles of soybean oil over the blend. I don't know what kind of wheat flour PJ's uses for its Dustinator blend but I would guess that it is the same flour as they use to make their dough, although as a product prepared for PJ to its specs, the flour could be a less expensive flour. I simply use the same white flour as I use to make the dough. I work the soybean oil into the flours by hand so that it is evenly distributed throughout the blend without clumping. I haven't tried to define the best amount of soybean oil to use, but the amount selected is likely to affect the taste of the finished crust.

FYI, after I made the last pizza, I revisited the dough formulation I posted in Reply 52 and made a few changes based on the results I got with the last pizza. For example, I increased the hydration to reflect the additional water I added to the dough I made (plus a little bit more), increased the salt level back to 1.75% (because of personal preference), and I increased the bowl residue compensation to 2.5%. The revised bowl compensation factor is specifically for the hand kneaded version--to get the finished dough weight closer to the calculated finished dough weight. For a machine kneaded dough, I would use a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. The revised dough formulation I came up with using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html is as follows:

King Arthur Bread Flour/VWG Blend (100%):
Water (57.5%):
IDY (0.80%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Honey (5%):
Total (172.35%):
370.93 g  |  13.08 oz | 0.82 lbs
213.28 g  |  7.52 oz | 0.47 lbs
2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
6.49 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
27.08 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.96 tsp | 1.99 tbsp
18.55 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.65 tsp | 0.88 tbsp
639.29 g | 22.55 oz | 1.41 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The formulation is for 22 ounces of dough for a 14" pizza with a nominal thickness factor of 0.14291 and a bowl residue compensation of 2.5%

The changes to the dough formulation do not result in material changes to the King Arthur Bread Flour/VWG Blend, so I would use the same apportionment of the KABF/VWG blend as given in Reply 52. If only KABF is used, the 13.08 ounces of flour converts volumetrically to 2 c. + 1/2 c. + 1/3 c. + 2 T. + 3/8 t. The amount of water, at 7.52 ounces, converts volumetrically to 1/2 c. + 1/3 c. + 1 T + 1/4 t.  At this time of year, with home heating systems working to heat homes in colder climates, the room humidity can be lower than at other times of year. So, it may be necessary to make some hydration adjustments (more water) in the mixer bowl to achieve the desired final dough condition.

Peter

« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 12:42:00 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline loowaters

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2009, 04:06:46 PM »
I should probably have specified which recipe I used.  I did NOT use that emergency dough, I used the last of your formulations prior to tinkering with the emergency dough, I think it's reply 48.  That's a big dough!!!  I was cooking it on my 15" disk and went ahead and stretched the 21 oz. dough the full 15".  I made enough for two pies and made one of the pies same day after a four hour rise, punched down and divided into the two balls after two hours.  The second one went into the fridge for, I think, two days.  As most would suspect, the dough ball that got the fridge rise was better.  I cooked them in the same fashion as you, moving from bottom rack to top after sufficient browning on the bottom...however, I overcooked the first on the bottom rack just a bit.  Great job!

Loo
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2009, 07:26:32 AM »
And, "in the box"...

Peter

 God! That looks fantastic Pete!!! :chef: :chef: :chef:

Have you ever ordered a PJ pie at the same time that you baked your own clone to do a side by side taste test and photo comparison?

 I think yours is better already! (drool)
It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.


 

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