Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 288399 times)

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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2008, 02:43:18 PM »
Great photos once again Peter.

So now the obvious question becomes, what other recipes would you consider using the dry ADY yeast  as part of the recipe?  :chef:
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2008, 03:56:09 PM »
So now the obvious question becomes, what other recipes would you consider using the dry ADY yeast as part of the recipe?  :chef:

M_E,

Thanks.

I think the dry use of ADY may have general application for standard types of doughs like the American style and a NY style but I would have to do some tests to prove out the method in a more general sense. I would not recommend that others use dry ADY for more normal circumstances. I would use the dry ADY method only to extend the useful life of a dough. As I previously demonstrated at the thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251, there are also ways of using IDY to achieve long useful dough lives. Whether one type of yeast is better than the other to get a long dough life is something that would have to be tested.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2009, 07:39:09 AM »
I noticed recently that some members have indicated interest in a so-called “short-time” or “emergency” dough for the American style pizza, such as a Papa John’s American style. That got me to wondering whether I could come up with a quality clone dough formulation for the Papa John’s style where the dough would be allowed to rise for only a couple of hours after being made and then be promptly used to make a pizza. Specifically, I targeted the time for fermenting the dough at only two hours, at room temperature. I thought also that it might be helpful to those without mixing equipment to make the dough by hand and to provide detailed instructions for using this method. Of course, as with other PJ clone doughs discussed in this thread, a stand mixer can also be used.

After giving the matter of an emergency PJ clone dough a fair amount of thought, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the following “emergency” dough formulation:

King Arthur Bread Flour/VWG Blend (100%):
Water (56.5%):
IDY (0.80%):
Salt (1.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Honey (5%):
Total (171.1%):
371.81 g  |  13.12 oz | 0.82 lbs
210.07 g  |  7.41 oz | 0.46 lbs
2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
27.14 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.98 tsp | 1.99 tbsp
18.59 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.66 tsp | 0.89 tbsp
636.17 g | 22.44 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The King Arthur Bread Flour/VWG blend comprises 361.46 g. (12.75 oz.) of King Arthur bread flour and 10.35 g. (0.37 oz.) of Hodgson Mill brand vital wheat gluten (3.45 t.); the formulation is for 22 oz. of dough for a 14” pizza with a nominal thickness factor of 0.14291 and a bowl residue compensation of 2%

As noted in the above table, I used a combination of King Arthur bread flour and vital wheat gluten (VWG). I decided to use the VWG for both its contribution to crust flavor and coloration, as well as increasing the protein content of the King Arthur bread flour. The amount of VWG used, almost 3 ½ teaspoons, was calculated (using member November’s Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/) to increase the protein content of the King Arthur bread flour from 12.7% to 14.2%, which is the protein content of a standard high-gluten flour, such as the King Arthur Sir Lancelot and All Trumps high-gluten flours. For those who prefer to use the Bob’s Red Mill brand of VWG, the amount to use is 8.95 g. (0.32 oz.), or about 3.59 t., with the balance (362.86 g., or 12.80 oz.) being the King Arthur bread flour.

As is common with emergency doughs, I also substantially increased the amount of yeast--to about double the normal amount that I would use this time of year for a cold fermented dough. In my case, I used 0.80% IDY.

I also decided to substitute honey for the sugar in the basic PJ clone dough formulation. I decided on the use of honey because it contains simple sugars (like glucose and fructose) that can be metabolized almost immediately by the yeast. By contrast, ordinary table sugar (sucrose) requires conversion to simple sugars before being usable as food by the yeast and to contribute to crust coloration, which can take a fair amount of time, usually considerably longer than the short fermentation period (2 hours in this case) used for the emergency dough. Moreover, since yeast metabolizes honey more slowly than complex sugars (from what I have read), I felt that there would be more residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking to contribute to crust coloration, resulting in a deeper crust color. I also felt that using honey would improve the rheology (flow) characteristics of the dough and make it easier to handle. In using the VWG and the honey, which includes about 17% water, I adjusted the hydration value of the dough formulation to reflect the use of such ingredients. Also, because I was hand kneading the dough, I used a bowl residue compensation of 2% to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough. Normally, for a KitchenAid machine made dough, I would use 1.5%.

For those who do not have a scale but have a standard set of measuring cups and measuring spoons, the amount of the King Arthur bread flour used in the KABF/VWG blend, 12.75 ounces, translates to 2 c. + ½ c. + 1/3 c. + 1 T. + 1/14 t. This conversion to volume measurements is based on using the “Textbook” method of flour measurement as defined in Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397. The actual conversion data comes from member November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. As noted above, the amount of VWG, the Hodgson Mill brand, is about 3 ½ t and a bit more for the Bob’s Red Mill brand. In the absence of VWG, it is possible to use only bread flour. In that case, the 13.12 ounces of flour converts to 3 c., again using the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator.

The amount of formula water from the above table, 7.41 ounces, converts volumetrically to ½ c. + 1/3 c. + 2 5/8 t. The water in the measuring cup(s) should be viewed at eye level with the measuring cup(s) on a flat surface.

To prepare the dough, I started by using a standard bowl sieve to sift the King Arthur bread flour into a first bowl. The purpose of sifting the flour is to improve its hydration. If one does not have a bowl sieve, a hand crank sifter can be used. I then stirred the VWG and the IDY into the flour. In a second bowl, I added the water (spring water) along with the honey and the salt, and stirred to combine, about 45 seconds. As is common with emergency doughs, I used an elevated water temperature. In my case, I used 125 degrees F (51.7 degrees C). Water at that temperature also helps dissolve the honey. The oil was then added to the water/salt/honey mixture.

I then gradually added the flour mixture to the ingredients in the second bowl, a few tablespoons at a time, and mixed using a whisk to aerate the flour/liquid mixture and improve its hydration. Any suitable whisk can be used but the whisk I used is the one shown at the top of the photo at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786. I used the whisk until it bogged down as the dough mass stiffened. I then switched to a sturdy wooden spoon and continued to add, and to mix in, the flour mixture. When the spoon bogged down, I emptied the contents of the bowl onto a work surface, where I kneaded in the rest of the flour mixture by hand on that work surface. The dough was on the dry side at the beginning of the hand knead, so I added about another teaspoon of water, in increments of a quarter teaspoon. After about 9-10 minutes of hand kneading, and with the help of a bench knife (e.g., such as shown at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/detail.jsp?id=8397), all of the flour mixture had been worked into the dough, and the dough was smooth and cohesive.

The final dough had a weight of 21.87 ounces and a finished dough temperature of 73 degrees F (22.8 degrees C). Normally, I would try to achieve a finished dough temperature for an emergency dough of around 85-90 degrees F (29.4-32.2 degrees C) but since my kitchen temperature was around 65 degrees F (18.3 degrees C) and I was using hand kneading, which does not add much heat to the dough, the best I could achieve under the circumstances was 73 degrees F. However, as things turned out, that was not a problem or issue at all.

Once the dough was done, I shaped it into a round ball, coated it lightly with vegetable oil (soybean oil), and placed it into a covered transparent plastic container. To monitor the progress of the dough during the rise (fermentation) period, I used the “poppy seed trick” as previously described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. I placed two poppy seeds one inch apart on the middle of the top of the dough ball and periodically measured the increase in the spacing between the two poppy seeds. Using that method, I observed that it took only one hour for the dough to roughly double. By the end of the second hour, the dough had more than tripled in volume.

At this point, I decided to use the dough to make the pizza. I gently flattened the dough with my fingers and coated it on both sides with my home-made “Dustinator” clone of semolina flour, white flour, and a bit of vegetable oil (soybean oil) that I had worked into the two flours using my fingers. I then docked the flattened dough on one side using a dough docker such as is done in Papa John’s stores. The particular dough docker I used is shown in Reply 389 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg26720.html#msg26720. For those who do not have a dough docker, an ordinary kitchen fork can be used, but care should be taken as not to completely penetrate the dough skin. After docking the dough skin, I shaped and stretched it out to 14”. The dough was fairly nicely balanced between elasticity and extensibility, with a slight bias toward elasticity, but was easy to work with. I was even able to toss the skin pretty much with impunity. Overall, this skin was most like the ones I saw in the Papa John’s stores in terms of the workability of the skin. I believe that this was due to the use of a relatively low hydration and the effects of the honey and oil on the plasticity of the dough.

The skin was then placed on a 14” pizza screen. I formed a rim at the perimeter and dressed it in standard pepperoni fashion. As with other PJ pepperoni clone pizzas I have previously made, I used about 5 ounces of pizza sauce, 9 ounces of diced low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, and 44 Hormel pepperoni slices that I had first “nuked” in my microwave unit to reduce their fat content. The sauce I used is the PJ clone sauce as described at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg57044.html#msg57044, as modified by the updated instructions as given at Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.msg66292.html#msg66292. The unbaked pizza weighed 38.5 ounces, which was in line with the other PJ pepperoni clone pizzas I have made.

The dressed pizza was baked, on the screen, on the lowest oven rack position of my electric oven, which had been preheated for about 15 minutes (the final 15 minutes of the two-hour dough rise period) at a temperature of about 500 degrees F (260 degrees C). It took about 7-8 minutes to bake the pizza.

The photos below show the finished pizza. As can be seen in the photos, the crust had very good coloration, which was something I was hoping to see. Although not shown, the bottom crust was also of very good--and uniform--coloration. While the finished crust and crumb were softer, less developed, and more bread-like than the other PJ clone pizzas I have made and reported on in this thread, and not as chewy and crispy, perhaps due to the more hygroscopic nature of the honey and its tendency to produce a more tender crust and crumb, the overall pizza was quite good—surprisingly so, in fact. Its overall appearance and weight were also very much in line with an authentic PJ pepperoni pizza. And the flavors, including the characteristic sweetness of the PJ crust, were pretty much on target. I wouldn’t rank the pizza as highly as the other PJ clone pizzas previously described in this thread, but for a two-hour dough, it delivers quite a bit in terms of eating satisfaction.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2009, 07:42:39 AM »
And, "in the box"...

Peter

Offline salvador

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2009, 09:00:59 PM »
nice pizza pete, do you use flour to spread your skins?

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2009, 09:20:37 PM »
nice pizza pete, do you use flour to spread your skins?

salvador,

I used my own version of a flour mixture that is used at Papa John's stores, called Dustinator. It is a blend of white flour, semolina flour and soybean oil. You can see how it is used by going to this YouTube video: . It would be possible to use just plain white flour, but the blend adds flavor and texture to the dough. I was trying to come as close as possible to the way that Papa John's makes its pizzas, so using the Dustinator clone blend was part of that effort. The two-hour dough that was used to make the last pizza was my own idea. You are not likely to see anything like that at a Papa John's store.

Peter

Offline loowaters

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2009, 10:35:10 AM »
Peter, I made this last week and thought it turned out great but picture taking wasn't the priority, eating was. 

Your Dustinator clone?  Are you using equal parts flour and semolina?  How do you incorporate the oil to evenly distribute it without gumming up the dry blend?

Loo
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2009, 12:05:51 PM »
Loo,

I normally don't try to encourage people to make "emergency" doughs but I appreciate that there is a place for such doughs on "rare" occasion. I am pleased to hear that the recipe worked out well for you.

As for the "Dustinator" clone blend, it is my best estimate of what Papa John's lists in their own ingredients documents. The listed ingredients are, in order, semolina flour, wheat flour, and soybean oil. I have never seen relative weights of those ingredients so I simply take a fistful of semolina flour and a lesser amount of white flour, blend them together by hand, and put a few drizzles of soybean oil over the blend. I don't know what kind of wheat flour PJ's uses for its Dustinator blend but I would guess that it is the same flour as they use to make their dough, although as a product prepared for PJ to its specs, the flour could be a less expensive flour. I simply use the same white flour as I use to make the dough. I work the soybean oil into the flours by hand so that it is evenly distributed throughout the blend without clumping. I haven't tried to define the best amount of soybean oil to use, but the amount selected is likely to affect the taste of the finished crust.

FYI, after I made the last pizza, I revisited the dough formulation I posted in Reply 52 and made a few changes based on the results I got with the last pizza. For example, I increased the hydration to reflect the additional water I added to the dough I made (plus a little bit more), increased the salt level back to 1.75% (because of personal preference), and I increased the bowl residue compensation to 2.5%. The revised bowl compensation factor is specifically for the hand kneaded version--to get the finished dough weight closer to the calculated finished dough weight. For a machine kneaded dough, I would use a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. The revised dough formulation I came up with using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html is as follows:

King Arthur Bread Flour/VWG Blend (100%):
Water (57.5%):
IDY (0.80%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Honey (5%):
Total (172.35%):
370.93 g  |  13.08 oz | 0.82 lbs
213.28 g  |  7.52 oz | 0.47 lbs
2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
6.49 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
27.08 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.96 tsp | 1.99 tbsp
18.55 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.65 tsp | 0.88 tbsp
639.29 g | 22.55 oz | 1.41 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The formulation is for 22 ounces of dough for a 14" pizza with a nominal thickness factor of 0.14291 and a bowl residue compensation of 2.5%

The changes to the dough formulation do not result in material changes to the King Arthur Bread Flour/VWG Blend, so I would use the same apportionment of the KABF/VWG blend as given in Reply 52. If only KABF is used, the 13.08 ounces of flour converts volumetrically to 2 c. + 1/2 c. + 1/3 c. + 2 T. + 3/8 t. The amount of water, at 7.52 ounces, converts volumetrically to 1/2 c. + 1/3 c. + 1 T + 1/4 t.  At this time of year, with home heating systems working to heat homes in colder climates, the room humidity can be lower than at other times of year. So, it may be necessary to make some hydration adjustments (more water) in the mixer bowl to achieve the desired final dough condition.

Peter

« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 12:42:00 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline loowaters

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2009, 04:06:46 PM »
I should probably have specified which recipe I used.  I did NOT use that emergency dough, I used the last of your formulations prior to tinkering with the emergency dough, I think it's reply 48.  That's a big dough!!!  I was cooking it on my 15" disk and went ahead and stretched the 21 oz. dough the full 15".  I made enough for two pies and made one of the pies same day after a four hour rise, punched down and divided into the two balls after two hours.  The second one went into the fridge for, I think, two days.  As most would suspect, the dough ball that got the fridge rise was better.  I cooked them in the same fashion as you, moving from bottom rack to top after sufficient browning on the bottom...however, I overcooked the first on the bottom rack just a bit.  Great job!

Loo
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2009, 07:26:32 AM »
And, "in the box"...

Peter

 God! That looks fantastic Pete!!! :chef: :chef: :chef:

Have you ever ordered a PJ pie at the same time that you baked your own clone to do a side by side taste test and photo comparison?

 I think yours is better already! (drool)
It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2009, 10:04:32 AM »
Thank you, Trin.

When I originally started this thread, the objective was to try to come as close to an authentic Papa John's pizza as possible, starting with a basic pepperoni pizza. So, that was the time that I bought pizzas from PJ's to be able to study them and to compare them with my own PJ clones. As you will see in Replies 2 and 3 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, I reported on one such comparison, both with respect to fresh pizza slices and reheated slices. Subsequently, I bought other PJ pizzas mainly to fix more firmly in my mind the differerent features of the Papa John style so that I could better tweak later attempts at that style. Many of the subsequent PJ clones I made represented major changes from the way that I believe PJ makes its pizzas, but the objective with those variations was always to try to retain the PJ features, including the general "look and feel". The "look and feel" part is fairly easy to achieve, especially after several tries, but that doesn't mean that the pizzas will taste exactly like the real thing. However, that shouldn't be taken to mean that the pizzas wont be worthy. All the variations I made were quite good, including the two-hour emergency dough version that you liked. If the objective is to get parity, I would say that the PJ clone pizza described in Reply 2 comes the closest, followed by some of the same-day room temperature fermented versions. 

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2009, 10:30:47 AM »
Thanks for the details. :)

 Really, Your pj pie sums up everything I love about pizza! :pizza:

Just give me that pie and all night off with my atari 2600... (misile command btw), And trin in heaven! :)
It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2009, 12:48:23 PM »
Pete,

Planning to give your revised 'emergency' dough from reply 57 a try this afternoon and I have a couple questions.  First, I plan on using a kitchen-aid mixer and would like to know, in general, what approach you would recommend with the mixer.  Secondly, I just noticed you are using IDY; if I am using ADY can I just add it to the flour.   As always - your advice is much appreciated!!

Thanks

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2009, 10:06:35 PM »
Levi,

Somehow I missed your post yesterday. Sorry about that.

If you will be using your KitchenAid stand mixer to make the dough using the dough formulation given in Reply 57 but using ADY instead of IDY, I would proceed as follows:

I would start by taking a small amount of the formula water--about an eighth of a cup--and heat to about 105 degrees F. You should then rehydrate the ADY in that water for about 10 minutes. While the ADY is rehydrating, you should sift the King Arthur bread flour into a bowl (a separate bowl, not the KitchenAid mixer bowl) and thoroughly stir in the vital wheat gluten (VWG). When the ADY has rehydrated (after 10 minutes), you should add the remaining formula water, but at about 115 degrees F, to the mixer bowl of your KitchenAid stand mixer. You can then add the honey to dissolve and then add the rehydrated ADY and the oil. With the flat beater attachment secured, you should then gradually add the flour/VWG mixture to the mixer bowl, a few tablespoons at a time, with the mixer operating at stir/1 speed. When the dough mass collects around the flat beater attachment and clears the sides of the bowl, about 1-2 minutes, you should switch from the flat beater attachment to the dough hook (mine is a C-hook). If the dough has not drawn in all of the flour/VWG mixture using the flat beater attachment, you may have to do a bit of hand kneading and/or use a bit of additional water. The dough should then be kneaded using the dough hook for about 5-6 minutes, at speed 2. Ideally, you want a finished dough temperature of around 85-90 degrees F, but that will depend mainly on your room temperature, the amount of heat added by your stand mixer, and how long it takes you to make the dough.

There is another thing to keep in mind. Since you are using ADY instead of IDY, you will need to adjust the dough formulation to reflect the use of the ADY. In your case, you will need to use 1.0664% ADY, which translates into about 1 1/8 teaspoon of ADY. You may also discover that you end up with a bit more dough because of the fact that the dough formulation in Reply 57 uses a bowl residue compensation of 2%. That is a value that I often recommend for hand kneaded dough. Usually, I would use 1.5% for a dough to be kneaded by a KitchenAid stand mixer. Using that value, the dough formulation would be modified to look like this:

King Arthur Bread Flour/VWG Blend (100%):
Water (57.5%):
ADY (1.0664%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Honey (5%):
Total (172.6164%):
366.74 g  |  12.94 oz | 0.81 lbs
210.88 g  |  7.44 oz | 0.46 lbs
3.91 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
6.42 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.15 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
26.77 g | 0.94 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.89 tsp | 1.96 tbsp
18.34 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.62 tsp | 0.87 tbsp
633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The formulation is for 22 oz. of dough for a 14” pizza with a nominal thickness factor of 0.14291 and a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%

I will leave to you to decide whether to simply switch from IDY to ADY in the Reply 57 formulation or use the modified dough formulation. There shouldn't be much difference in the finished dough.

Good luck. I hope you will report back with your results.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 12:48:55 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2009, 04:59:35 PM »
Hello Peter,

I have an old family recipe that is very close to your´s Papa John's Clone. This recipe was from my grandfather, he was born in Venice. It has 7,5% of oil, but no sugar. I´m going to try your´s to see the difference.

Thank´s for sharing

Marchetto

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2009, 07:36:53 PM »
I recently found a pdf document that includes what appears to be the nutrition information for all of the PJ menu items, at http://www.papajohns.com/menu/pdf/PJ_nutri_info.pdf. Most of that information also appears at the PJ website. As before, nutrition information for several of the PJ pizzas can also be found on an individual basis at the nutritiondata.com website. The latest listing of such pizzas is at http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-papa%20john%27s000000000000000000000.html.

Peter

EDIT (9/10/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the above PJ PDF document, see http://web.archive.org/web/20080908161925/http://www.papajohns.com/menu/pdf/PJ_nutri_info.pdf; for the latest listing of the PJ pizzas at the Nutritiondata.self.com, see http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-papa%20john%27s000000000000000000000.html
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 12:38:29 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2009, 09:00:23 PM »
Peter,  it has been a while since i stepped outside the NY elite and neapaolitan pizza arenas,  and I felt I was due to change it up a little,  or a lot as it ended up.  I was searching through some of the thin crust sections and decided since I still don't have a cutter pan to stay away for now.  I looked at deep dish and decided that my 15 inch pan made just too much deep dish for me and my wife.  After a while I decided to give your PJ recipie a shot.  I was craving pizza last night,  so I scaled up your 12 hour recipie to fit my 19 inch screen, which just barely fits in my conventional home oven,  and made the dough at 7:30 this morning.  Also I had all the ingredients on hand or at least good substitutions.  The major substitutions were using a blend of un/un all trumps and KAAP at a rate of 50/50 to try and hit a bread flour strength,  wal mart great value tomatoes,  and using grande part skim.  Anyhow,  the dough proofed up perfectly by 8:00 when I made the pizza,  and everything else came together very nicely.  I used to have a pj near me,  but it closed several years ago due to poor management.  At the time when it did it was definately the family choice over ph and dominoes when ordering delivey from the big three.  Needless to say this brought back memories of the pizza.  It is a very sweet pizza,  and I do remember that.  Ironicly,  I saw a pj commercial advertising thier XL pizza today just about in the middle of my dough proofing up.  I thought you might appreciate a couple pictures,  so here they are.  Also,  the therapy has seemed to work, as I am already thinking about my dough formulation for this weekends experiments.  Great job on the recipie,  I think that it should be added to the recipie page.  thanks  -marc


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2009, 09:35:01 PM »
Marc,

Wow!! A 19" Papa John's clone cheese pizza!! That is colossal and impressive. If you scaled everything up proportionally, that would mean a pizza weight of around 3.8 pounds. That should be enough to satisfy a pizza "craving".

Sometime you should try a long, cold fermentation. The 12-hour dough fits the clock well but the several-day dough will produce a finished crust that is even closer to a real PJ pizza crust.

Nice job. Thanks for trying the recipe and for posting your results.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2009, 02:03:29 AM »
Quote
Giotto,

You are correct about the Lehmann recipe.  I have been operating within the constraints of the recipe, since it is that recipe that Steve is considering adding to the site.  If I depart too much from the recipe, then it is no longer Tom Lehmann's recipe and it becomes something else--whatever that is.  That's no reason not to try to improve the recipe, since that is what this forum is all about, and your recent comments offer some promise in that regard.  As you know, I have long been an advocate of using small amounts of yeast and cooler water temperatures, but that doesn't stop me from being open to any other possibilities.  In the final analysis, what really matters is not some slavish devotion to some concept of physics or chemistry that might appeal to me on an intellectual level, but what does the pizza look and taste like?  I'll always go with the taste before the chemistry and physics--maybe begrudgingly--but that is where I will go.  It's in my nature to play the devil's advocate and try to get others to defend their positions, but my ultimate objective is to get the best pizza possible.

You mentioned Canadave.  As you will note if you go to the New York Style Dough, etc. thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/yabbse/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=389;start=120, I made a dough following Canadave's recipe. Apart from the amount of sugar his recipe calls for, which is a strictly a matter of personal taste (I just happen not to like a lot of sugar in pizza doughs), his recipe, which calls for a much larger amount of yeast than I normally use, produced a highly exceptional pizza, much like the pizza reported at the top of this thread but without the sugar (which is optional in the Lehmann recipe, about 1-2% according to other information at the PMQ site).  As you point out, Canadave also uses cool tap water and, as you do, he also uses a metal container for more quickly cooling down his dough while in the refrigerator.  That idea personally appeals to me, especially since a refrigerator in the usual home setting has a higher operating temperature than a commercial cooler.  Using a metal container is easy enough to do, so even if I am wrong, it doesn't cause any harm that I can tell.

As for exploring what local professionals do in my area, I have perhaps been remiss in not doing more.  In part, this has been because the professionals use ingredients that I can't easily get myself, so showing me what I am missing doesn't particularly lift my spirits.  And I have been making pizzas for myself for so long that it has been literally years since I last had a pizza from ANY pizzeria.  And, like DKM, I am not into idolatry or particularly anxious to try to replicate pizzas from any of the majors, whether it is Domino's, Pizza Hut, Papa John's, Malnati's, or Gino's or anyone else.  To me, that's a fool's errand, since they operate under a different set of rules than I do, and I don't sense from what I have read or heard that their pizzas are worth copying anyway.  On this score, I would rather look at what the locals do, as I believe you are suggesting anyway, and, to this end, I am planning to do more with that when I am on vacation later this month in Massachusetts, where a close friend, fully aware of my interest in pizza, wants to take me to his favorite pizza place to spend some time with the pizza maker.   I am looking forward to that and hoping it materializes.

Peter

Ok Peter I gotta ask, you said specifically you wouldn't want to do a "fools errand" and try to recreate a major pizza place's dough, so was your change in mind because you got bored or due to overwhelming demand for a clone?

Just thought it was funny when I ran across the post on the Lehmann's thread. And yes I know this was about 5 years ago you made the post.

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2009, 11:25:52 AM »
smarttowers,

I guess that you could say that, in the political vernacular, I am a “flip flopper”. Or that I was “younger” and more foolish then and had no idea of what I was talking about. Or that the skies opened up and there was an epiphany that transformed me. But, there were several, more mundane, reasons for the transformation.

First, was the demand of our members for clones. If you look at the threads on the forum that have the most page views, you will see that there are a great many that relate to the pizzas made by the big chains, including the big four, and many smaller regional chains. Since these are the chains that people know most and best and for whom they have strong loyalty and attachments, often going back to earlier times and places, it would be natural to want to try to replicate their pizzas in a home setting. So, we get a lot of requests for clone dough recipes.

But it is doubtful that I would have reverse engineered a chain pizza or attempted to make a clone solely for my own purposes. I don’t consider myself a pizza snob but at the time I wrote what you quoted I did not have any particular affinity for the pizzas of the chains. The “tipping point” for me was that I like to be challenged. I also like to learn new things and to apply what I learn in new situations. And I am willing and prepared to put in the time and effort to get the job done. I might end up failing, but the thought of failure is almost never a deterrent. To the extent that I succeed and others benefit from what I have done, I view it as a win-win situation. You will also notice that I did not stop this thread at Reply 2, after I posted the dough formulation that represented my best efforts at cloning the Papa John’s dough. I went on to make many other versions, none of which are offered by Papa John’s itself. It turns out that some of those versions are the most popular among our members.

In making the clones, as part of the intellectual challenge I wanted to see how far I could take the process using only publicly available information. Five years ago, that would have been quite difficult because much of the information on the products of major companies was not readily available, and many were private companies, which are the hardest companies to research. But, because of the Internet and government regulations and an increased interest and concern about foods and their nutritional value, there is much more information available today about the products of the chains and the ingredients that go into them. We, as members, also have greater access to the types of products (and, in some cases, the exact products) used by the chains in their operations. So, replicating pizzas in a fairly authentic way is a greater reality today than five years ago. But, that doesn’t mean that it is easy to reverse engineer products and make clones. It is hard, tedious and often boring work, and a lonely process. I have a notebook on everything I have done with the Papa John’s clones and it is up to 80 pages.

I will confess that there is a certain folly and futility to reverse engineering the pizza products of others. Dough formulations change over time, ingredients and suppliers change with regularity, and new people, equipment and processes are constantly being introduced. For example, Pizza Hut has gone to frozen pizza dough products in the U.S. and in several other countries, and outsources other pizza products. These products are pretty much out of the realm of reverse engineering by home pizza makers because of the general unavailability of the many chemicals, additives and conditioners used to make frozen dough. Also, fewer and fewer companies are making on-premises dough. Like Papa John’s, more and more companies are using commissaries, with dough formulations that are designed for commissary production and transportation logistics. Trans fats are being routinely eliminated from dough formulations. It looks like salt (sodium) and sugar are being targeted for reduction. Usually the changes are made gradually, so that customers don’t notice the changes. I recently saw that Papa John’s issued new nutrition information for many of its pizzas. I did a comparison with the previous nutrition information and the differences suggest that PJ’s either improved upon their nutrition tests and results or they have reduced the weights of some pizzas.

Peter

Offline eric22

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2009, 03:47:53 AM »
 >:D

best posted topic ever!

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2009, 08:48:37 AM »
eric22,

Thank you.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2009, 03:55:58 PM »
Peter,
I haven't looked under American style much until today.  Your clone of Papa John's pizza look great.  You really did a good job of cloning this pizza.  I think I am going to try this recipe.  Your pizza look so inviting to try a slice.   
Great investigating!
Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2009, 11:43:51 PM »
Peter,
After reading your whole thread about Papa John's clone formulation, I became very interested in trying this.  Instead of trying my other trial formulation Friday, I am going to try this to see what happens.  I will not be using KABF because I only have King Arthur. Since that flour is bromated, I don't know if that will make a difference. I am going to use olive oil in place of the Soybean Oil.  I calculated using a thickness factor of .10 to see what will happen with that.  I also put in the calculation that I will be making a 15" pizza for 6 balls.  I also put in the calculator I am using Morton's salt. 
I do have a flat beater that came with my mixer, so I will follow your direction for mixing the dough.  Then I will shift to my other dough hook.  I will look for a finished dough temperature of 78 degrees, which hopefully I will achieve.  I am going to drill a hole in the lid to compensate for condensation to see if that helps, too.
I will make notes of the room temperature, flour temperature, water temperature and see how this works.
I will mix the Dustinator flour you described, but will be using olive oil.  Maybe if this experiment works out next week I will try a higher hydration.  I would like to see a larger and more puffier crumb.
This is what the calculator came up with.

Flour (100%):    1789.55 g  |  63.12 oz | 3.95 lbs
Water (56.5%):    1011.1 g  |  35.66 oz | 2.23 lbs
IDY (.14%):    2.51 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.83 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    31.32 g | 1.1 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
Oil (7.3%):    130.64 g | 4.61 oz | 0.29 lbs | 9.68 tbsp | 0.6 cups
Sugar (4.8%):    85.9 g | 3.03 oz | 0.19 lbs | 7.18 tbsp | 0.45 cups
Total (170.49%):   3051 g | 107.62 oz | 6.73 lbs | TF = 0.1015
Single Ball:   508.5 g | 17.94 oz | 1.12 lbs

I will post on this thread next week what happens.
Thanks for all the work that went into this post!
Norma

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2009, 07:01:51 AM »
Norma,

I believe that you meant to say that you will be using the bromated All Trumps high-gluten flour rather than the KABF, which is not bromated. The All Trumps should work but you may need just a bit more hydration.

With your commercial mixer, you may not need to use the flat beater attachment. In my case with my basic KitchenAid stand mixer, I found the combination of flat beater attachment and the C-hook to be a particularly useful one. It is a combination that I use for many other doughs also simply because it does a better job than using the C-hook alone.

Unless you use a light olive oil, like a Classico olive oil (mine comes in a bottle with a yellow label), you may find that the more robust olive oil flavor is too powerful a flavor for the finished crust. This is something that the members who make Chicago-style doughs, which can also contain high levels of oil, have discovered and commented upon.

If you use a thickness factor of 0.10, you will get a "thin" version of the PJ clone pizza. I experimented with "thin" versions of Randy's American style pizza, which is his "clone" of the PJ pizza, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.0.html, so you may find that your pizzas look more like the ones shown in that thread than in this thread. For example, see Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15953.html#msg15953, where I used a thickness factor of 0.10.

An important point to keep in mind is that the PJ pizzas--and my clones as well--are baked on pizza screens, not on a pizza stone. This is because the high sugar content in the doughs can lead to excessive bottom crust browning and even blackening if the pizzas are baked directly on a pizza stone.

On the matter of using a higher hydration, which I did by the way with Randy's thin PJ clone pizzas, you may find that the rims are not materially higher and puffier. At least that has been my experience. I believe that it is the combination of high sugar and oil levels that restrains some of the dough expansion and finished crust height.

Good luck with your experiment.

Peter