Author Topic: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza  (Read 305351 times)

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Offline Trogdor33

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #150 on: December 13, 2009, 03:13:59 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the compliment. The rim looks ok, it just doesn't look like authentic PJ's. The photos Peter posted have the rim the same thickness as the rest of the pie. This dough was way more fun to open up than my NY style though. I was tossing this around like a frisbee and it took the abuse with a smile.

-Joe
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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #151 on: December 13, 2009, 03:25:56 PM »
Joe,

I think you did a terrific job. For some reason, the two-day PJ clone dough seems to be the most popular, perhaps because you don't have to wait five or more days to make the version that is intended to most closely replicate the PJ original pizzas sold in their stores (the one described at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197) .

Technically, the PJ pizzas as made in their stores are intended to have a defined rim. The PJ manual specifically requires it and PJ management will audit stores, especially franchisee stores, to be sure that they are following the manual. The PJ website shows the defined rim, for example, at http://www.papajohns.com/menu/crust_org.shtm, but I have never seen the workers at the PJ store I frequent make a defined rim. Also, a PJ store pizza will usually have some cheese on the rim that burns a bit, just as shown in your photo but not in the PJ photo referenced above. I have never had a PJ store pizza that looks like those shown at the official PJ website. That is one of the reasons why I try to make my PJ clones look more like those I buy from PJs.

Peter

Offline Trogdor33

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #152 on: December 14, 2009, 06:25:27 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for your kind words. Honestly, I was willing to go the 5 days if I needed to. I almost always have dough either in the fridge or on the counter warming up, so I would have just made a 2 day batch of something else and skipped my next regular dough making. Since your comments on the 2 day recipe sounded like there wasn't a noticeable difference, I figured "why wait". I may still try the 5 day formula sometime if I get ambitious, but since you made it sound like they tasted the same I am in no hurry.

I am surprised to find out that the corporate PJ's expects their stores to have a defined rim since all the PJ's pizzas I have seen look more like your pictures than the one on their website. I had a roommate in college that worked at a PJ's and would bring us pizza almost every night to the point where I was almost sick of it. I don't ever recall seeing any sort of rim definition like the one on their website. Then again, I have never seen a big mac or whopper look anything like what you see in the ads. I personally like the flat style crust better on thicker crust pizzas, it was just out of sheer habit that I made the rim on it.

Anyway, thanks for all the time you put into this recipe. It was fun to try a different style for a change.

-Joe
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #153 on: December 14, 2009, 10:24:08 PM »
I am surprised to find out that the corporate PJ's expects their stores to have a defined rim since all the PJ's pizzas I have seen look more like your pictures than the one on their website. I had a roommate in college that worked at a PJ's and would bring us pizza almost every night to the point where I was almost sick of it. I don't ever recall seeing any sort of rim definition like the one on their website.

Joe,

I believe that they refer to the initial formation of the rim as "edge lock". That initial edge lock forms pretty much automatically as a worker starts to make the skin by pressing and pushing the dough outwardly from the center and then partly opening up the skin on the bench by rotating the hands. However, to keep the cheese from going over the edge of the skin as it is being dressed, apparently the rim is supposed to be "double edge locked", as described by a PJ employee at http://www99.epinions.com/review/rest-Chain_Restaurants-All-Papa_John__s_Pizza/rest-review-7B79-1FF2C70-394E8CAF-prod1. Once the skin is fully opened up, presumably it can then be placed on a pizza screen. I suppose the double edge lock might also be done on the pizza screen itself. In fact, if you look at the YouTube video at , I believe that is the method used by the PJ worker in that video.

A member of the PMQ Think Tank, in a post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7980&p=55053#p55016, reported that she failed an evaluation at a PJ franchisee location because she failed on "edge lock, sauce lock, and cheese lock." I don't know what sauce lock and cheese lock are, but they are apparently other steps that workers are supposed to follow.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #154 on: December 20, 2009, 04:35:28 PM »
Recently, I decided to conduct an experiment in which I took member Randy’s interpretation (if that is a proper characterization) of the Papa John’s style and reformated it to fit the “look and feel” of the Papa John’s clone doughs/pizzas that I have made and reported on in this thread. For purposes of the experiment, I started out with Randy’s basic dough formulation as given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5721.0.html. As part of the transformation, I used the same pizza size (14”), same dough ball weight (22 ounces), same weight of mozzarella cheese (about 9 ounces, but diced rather than shredded), the same sauce weight (about 5.5 ounces of a PJ clone sauce), and the same number of slices of pepperoni (around 45 slices) as I used for many of my PJ clones as reported in this thread. I used the same baker’s percents for my dough as called for in Randy’s recipe, and I used the same dough preparation procedures, except that I used a combination of King Arthur bread flour and vital wheat gluten (Hodgson Mill brand) instead of high-gluten flour and I used a water temperature of 90 degrees F (as recommended by Randy) since I was planning on making a two-day cold fermented dough rather than a one-day cold fermented dough. I also tweaked the baker’s percents to reflect better conversion data than I previously used with Randy’s recipe.

The dough preparation was easy, although I found it necessary to use a spatula from time to time to help the dough along at the different stages. The finished dough was in very good form—smooth and supple. By the time I removed the dough ball from the refrigerator (after two days), it had more than quadruped in volume (based on using the poppy seed method as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html). The dough was allowed to warm up at room temperature for about 2 ½ hours. I used Randy’s version of the PJ “Dustinator” blend as I opened up and shaped the dough ball to the desired size (14”). That blend included white flour, semolina flour and cornmeal (the official PJ Dustinator blend comprises white flour, semolina flour and soybean oil). I had no problem shaping the dough ball to form the 14” skin and to fit it on my 14” pizza screen. I did not need and therefore did not use a dough docker. The finished dressed (unbaked) pizza weighed around 39 ounces, which was pretty much in line with many of my PJ clones.

The pizza was baked on the lowest oven rack position of my electric oven, which I had preheated to about 500 degrees F (the temperature suggested by Randy). The total bake time was around 10 minutes, with the final minute at the topmost oven rack position to get more top crust coloration. The bake time was considerably longer, by several minutes, than what Randy has used and what I have normally used for PJ clones. The weight of the pizza after baking was around 36 ounces, which reflected a loss during baking of about 8%. That figure was also in line with some of my prior PJ clone experiments. Overall, I believe I achieved the general look and feel of the PJ clones I have been making, which was the objective of the experiment.

The photos below show the finished pizza. I must say that I was quite surprised by the results. From a weight standpoint, the pizza was similar to the many PJ clones I have made, including the two-day version, but there were many differences. First, the rim of the baked pizza was larger and puffier than my PJ clone pizzas even though I was careful in forming the skin to press the rim area down hard so as to materially reduce the finished rim size. I attribute the larger rim size to the large amount of yeast (1.56% IDY) in the dough formulation I used. Second, the crumb was considerably softer, “pastier” and more tender and less chewy than my PJ clones, and more breadlike, with a softer, less crispy bottom crust. I attribute this to the considerably higher formula hydration (nominally 60.63% but a bit more than 64% when the water in the honey is accounted for) and the considerably more total sugar (5.27% table sugar and 4.63% honey, for a total of about 9.9%) than what I have used (a bit over 4%) for my PJ clones. In my clones, I use less sugar (or honey) and more oil than Randy calls for in his recipe. Surprisingly, I did not find the crust to be overly sweet but the crust was saltier than my PJ clones (the formula salt in the recipe is 2.46%).

The flavors of the pizza were quite good and similar to what I have achieved with my PJ clones but the total mouth feel was quite different than my PJ clones because of the increased crust/crumb softness. In retrospect, it occurred to me that I might have been able to reduce the crust and crumb softness and to get a chewier and crispier crust by using a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time in order to drive off more of the moisture in the dough so that the final crust would approach the textural qualities of the finished crusts of the PJ clones I have made (and authentic PJ pizzas as well). However, that would have meant a possible total bake time in a range of 12-15 minutes by my estimation. That said, I am sure that I can improve the textural qualities for the leftover slices when I reheat them in my toaster oven.

Overall, I learned a lot from my experiment and I am glad I did it. However, I concluded that it is perhaps better to stick with Randy’s recipe on its own rather than trying to reformat it to fit the profile of the PJ clones I have been making. Alternatively, for me, a good option is to make “thinner” versions of Randy’s American style, which is where I originally cut my teeth with Randy’s recipe, and which I described in various forms at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.0.html.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 04:26:15 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline LizzieTheChef

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #155 on: March 25, 2010, 07:13:56 PM »
When cooking on a screen with this PJ clone recipe, should I leave the pizza stone in and place the screen on top of the the stone? Or remove the stone so that the pizza is on the rack above the element? I am going to try this recipe again, I think the last time I placed it on top of the stone with a screen and it cooked unevenly (crust cooked too quickly). I can't remember too clearly though, almost all my pizzas have been baked on the stone since I got it :p

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #156 on: March 25, 2010, 07:27:50 PM »
When cooking on a screen with this PJ clone recipe, should I leave the pizza stone in and place the screen on top of the the stone? Or remove the stone so that the pizza is on the rack above the element? I am going to try this recipe again, I think the last time I placed it on top of the stone with a screen and it cooked unevenly (crust cooked too quickly). I can't remember too clearly though, almost all my pizzas have been baked on the stone since I got it :p

The PJ clones are intended to be baked on screens only, as they are in PJ stores. All of my clones discussed in this thread were baked on screens only. So, no pizza stone should be used. However, there are some members who have baked their PJ clone pizzas on stones. But, because of the high sugar content of the dough, you have to be careful that the bottom of the pizza doesn't burn or turn brown prematurely before the top of the pizza is finished baking.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #157 on: March 26, 2010, 09:23:08 PM »
Here is my first attempt at Petezza's PJ Pizza.  I also used his recipe for the sauce as well.  The recipe for the saucecan be found here. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.20.html

First off, my hat is off to Peter for all the research, experimentation, and sharing of his recipe and method.  I haven't eaten a PJ's pizza in awhile, but this was very close.  I would have like the crust to have a bit more chew, but I suspect the difference is in the protein % of their flour and my BF. 

My BF is bought from Sunflower Health Food Market and I didn't look at the label for protein content when buying it in bulk.  It is surely lower than PJ's flour though.

Next, I used Pete's recipe on the first page and multiplied by a factor of 1.5 to make a 2 (12") pizzas. 
Also use 45gm of my starter and up the ADY to 1.5 tsp to be used in 24hours.

Here's the recipe I ended up with.
•   Flour      531.6gm
•   Water      300.39gm
•   IDY      1.5 tsp
•   Salt      9.3gm (1.5 tsp)
•   Veg oil      38.8gm (2.85 T)
•   Sugar      25.5gm (2.1 T)
•   Total      914.59
I originally wasn't going to add starter but decided at the last min. to add it.  My final dough weight was 932gm and each doughball was 466gm.

I mixed all the ingredients in the food processor and let it rest for 10min prior to kneading.  I finished kneading by hand on the counter for a min or so.  The doughballs were lightly oiled and plated and loosley covered with a sheet of plastic wrap.  At the 24 hour mark, the balls looked as though they had risen about 60-70% (not quite doubled) in the fridge.
  They were proofed at room temps for 2 hours prior to stretching and baking.  The dough temp at the time of stretching was 67F and felt cool to the touch.  The dough had a really nice feel to it and stretched rather easily.  I could toss this one in the air.  Also didn't have much of a spring back and retained it's shape easily.

I baked 2 pies.  A white chicken alfredo pie (for the wife and SIL) and a mushroom pepperoni pizza for me and the BIL.

OK now for the funny story.  My BIL took a bite and said, "Wow, this is very restaurant quality!"  To which I replied, it's suppose to be a clone of one of the chains.

He takes another bite (the crust this time) and said, "Is it Papa John's?"  to which I replied with a big grin and said "yes.."

He said, you know I was wondering that b/c when I first looked at it, I thought it looked a lot like a PJ's pie.
So there ya have it.  GREAT recipe PETE!!!  :chef:
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 09:27:12 PM by Tranman »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #158 on: March 26, 2010, 09:56:50 PM »
Tran,

I'm glad that everyone liked your pizzas. The one you showed in th photos looks terrific. Since Papa John's doesn't make a one-day dough for its pizzas, your pizza crusts shouldn't be the same but you can still capture the "look and feel" of a real PJ pizza. It was also good to see that a grill can be used to bake the pizzas.

No doubt you saw my 24-hour PJ clone dough version at Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60076.html#msg60076. Out of curiosity, I ran your basic numbers (two 12" pizzas) through the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html and, for two 12" pizzas using ADY instead of IDY, I came up with about 3/4 teaspoon of ADY. The dough ball weight was 465.1 grams, or almost exactly what you used (466 grams).

Peter



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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #159 on: March 26, 2010, 10:45:41 PM »
Pete I did see that recipe along with countless others as I read as much as I could from the forum last night.  It was getting late and I needed to start a formula, so I went back to the original and just made a wild gestimation at how much dough I would need.  I'm very surprise that the final dough weight came so close to your calculations. 

I'll revise the recipe I have saved on my laptop to reflect the new amount of ADY I should be using but I do want to mention that the amount that I did use worked out fine.  I really didn't know how much ADY to add but based on my past (& misguided) efforts of using 1/2 tsp ADY and 15gm starter per 300gm of dough, I decided to go with 45gm starter and 1.5tsp per ~900gm dough weight. 
  Do you think 45gm of starter plus ADY was too much for a total dough weight of 932gm (2 - 12" pies)?
Pies turned out awesome so I'm a bit hesitant to change anything. 

I usually use about 275-300gm per 12" NY pie, so when these came up at 466gm per 12" pie, I was a bit nervous that they would be way too thick.  But they came out just right!. 

Anyways, I did want to mention the garlic butter sauce again as it was excellent.  I haven't tested it side by side with a PJ's tub of garlic butter, but it definitely hit the spot.   Easy to make as well.  Softened butter with finely minched garlice or garlic powder.  Then gradually mix in olive oil until desired consistency.  A very small pinch of salt as well and it stays liquid at room temps. 

BTW, not only does the Primo grill make an awesome pizza, but it also has an authentic WFO taste to it.  Very noticeably different than pies baked in my indoor oven. 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 10:49:11 PM by Tranman »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #160 on: March 27, 2010, 12:28:08 PM »
Tran,

This morning, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the dough formulation using ADY instead of ADY for two 12" pizzas. That way, I could calculate the percent of starter you used in relation to the flour weight and/or total dough batch weight. I have presented the dough formulation below. However, my view is that if you are satisfied with your results as is, there is no need to change anything. In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. However, I am amazed at how close you came with your dough to the numbers I came up with in the dough formulation presented below. I thought for sure that you re-did the numbers to fit your situation. You are perhaps developing that "sixth sense" that good bakers and pizza dough makers get that allows them to do the kinds of extrapolations you did intuitively. In actuality, my number for the total dough batch weight is perhaps a bit on the low side because you also used a natural starter (45 grams). However, the numbers would still be quite close.

Based on the numbers presented below, 45 grams of natural starter represents about 8.2% of the total formula flour weight or about 4.8% of the total dough weight. Your actual numbers based on the weights you posted would be 8.5% and 4.9%, respectively. But, either way, those numbers are quite modest. However, I suspect that the large amount of commercial yeast (ADY) may overwhelm the leavening effects of the small amount of starter. The commercial yeast and the natural starter compete for the same nutrients and, in such a race, especially with a lot of commercial yeast, the commercial yeast is more likely to be the hare and the natural yeast is more likely to be the tortoise. There may still be byproducts of fermentation of the natural yeast to contribute to the final pizza crust, but they may be less pronounced than when the natural starter is used alone. Sometime, you might try repeating your recipe but leave out the natural starter to see if you can detect its omission. By contrast, you could repeat your recipe without any commercial yeast, just the natural starter. This would require some adjustments since the fermentation rate with the natural starter at the rate you used it is likely to be considerably slower than with the ADY at the rate you used the ADY. However, these experiments should teach you a lot about the characteristics and attributes of your particular natural starter. Of course, you would want to use the same bake method (grill or oven) and protocol for both pizzas. I don't know if you saw it, but I discussed a naturally leavened version of the PJ clone dough formulation at Reply 38 aat http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60892.html#msg60892.

Here are the numbers I got from the expanded dough calculating tool:

Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
ADY (0.50%):
Salt (1.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (169.5%):
Single Ball:
548.79 g  |  19.36 oz | 1.21 lbs
307.32 g  |  10.84 oz | 0.68 lbs
2.74 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
8.23 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.47 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
40.06 g | 1.41 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.82 tsp | 2.94 tbsp
23.05 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.78 tsp | 1.93 tbsp
930.21 g | 32.81 oz | 2.05 lbs | TF = 0.1450587
465.1 g | 16.41 oz | 1.03 lbs
Note: For two 12" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.142915; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Peter
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 09:08:23 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #161 on: March 27, 2010, 02:10:38 PM »
Peter, thank you for the recalculating the recipe.  I'll save it and do the retest later. 

I am working on gestimating some things as I gain more and more experience.  Having read something awhile ago that the italian pizza makers only measure the water, and adjust everything else base on the feel of the dough, I have been secretly making that as a long term goal. 

For now, I'm still measuring all the ingredients as closely as i can, but someday I'll get there.   I have been scaling down recipes to make 10-12" pies as 14-16" tends to leave leftovers.  At the rate I'm making pizzas, I don't want to eat leftovers.   So to accomplish this I've been multiplying recipes by a factor of .75 or .8 to get a 12" pie.  It's not perfect but it works pretty well.  The ratios and percentages stay the same and i just get less dough.  I stretch it to the same thickness as I would for a 14" pie.

For sauces, I've been adding tsp and tbs measurements in my hand and then double checking with a measuring spoon and make mental adjustments. 

Yes, I've been learning s l o w l y about the powers and overuse of yeast.  Per our conversation last night, I went ahead and made adjustments of the yeast and starter to the recipe already.

•   Flour      531.6gm
•   Water      300.39gm
•   Starter      30gm
•   ADY      4gm (3/4 tsp)
•   Salt      9.3gm (1.5 tsp)
•   Veg oil      38.8gm (2.85 T)
•   Sugar      25.5gm (2.1 T) - I used 2T - close enough. :)
•   Total      938.9/2 = 469.5gm per pie

As you can see, I dropped half the amount of ADY and lowered the starter amount by 1/3.  For a 24H emergency dough, I seriously doubt it will be much different from my first attempt but I'll try again soon and let you know.

I want to say thanks for posting the calculating tool often.  I really do need to learn how to use it for myself.    The members here can always count on your for the calculations and it may be making ppl like me lazy (or lazier). :)

Those are good suggestions for testing my natural starter vs ADY/IDY as I have often wondered if there is a difference in leavening power and taste as I spoon out the natural starter.  I like many, only got use to using it b/c JV calls for it in his recipe. 

Quick question about natural starters and yeast.  Is it often that ppl will use both or just one or the other?  I'm not sure that it matters but just curious about what you and others with experience do.

Have you done those tests yourself and what have you discovered?  Does a natural starte give the crust a better flavor? texture?   TIA
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 03:28:06 PM by Tranman »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #162 on: March 27, 2010, 03:10:01 PM »
Tran,

I believe that in your table you meant to recite ADY instead of IDY.

It is quite common for people to use a combination of commercial yeast and a natural starter or preferment. In Jeff's case, my recollection is that he calls for a small amount of commercial yeast in order to get more "puff" out of his dough and finished crust. My experience is similar, although I discovered that if I used both commercial yeast and a natural starter or natural preferment the results in terms of crust flavor and texture were not as good as using only a natural starter or natural preferment. With natural starters and natural preferments, the texture of the finished crust, and especially the crumb, is better in my opinion, in the sense that the structure of the crumb can be pulled and it will stretch and then pull back. Unlike the crumb structure of a loaf of bread that can have a fairly tight cell structure with voids of similar size and shape, especially if the dough is kneaded to full gluten development, the voids and alveoles of the crumb leavened naturally can have many different shapes and sizes. Of course, some of these issues can be addressed in bread doughs by using high hydrations and other methods.

For your information, and to answer your question on the use of both commercial yeast and a natural starter more fully, Professor Calvel calls this method the "hybrid" method. As you can see from Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3220.msg66414/topicseen.html#msg66414, the hybrid method as he practiced it was limited to very small amounts of commercial yeast and usually during the cool part of the year.

I applaud your desire to try to learn how to make pizza dough using volume measurements instead of weights, or using the amount of water as a starting point. Dom DeMarco of DiFara's has been making dough by hand--several batches a day--for over 40 years, using only volume measurements. That is not particularly hard to do when you are trying to make only a single type of dough or a single type of pizza. The same applies when you measure out only the water and then add the flour and other ingredients (almost always just salt and yeast and, in rare instances, a natural starter) to make a Neapolitan style dough. Again that is only one type and style of dough. It can be reproduced with practice and experience. However, there is nothing intuitive to making a dough such as the PJ American style dough described in this thread. I have made enough PJ clone doughs and understand them and can reproduce them at will, even from memory and with only a calculator to simplify the math, but it is only from experience that I am able to do it. A novice would be far better advised to measure out things than just try to throw a bunch of ingredients measured out volumetrically into a mixer bowl and hope that he or she gets lucky and the pizza turns out as hoped. The feel of the dough alone will not tell you how much oil and how much sugar to add and their interrelationship with the hydration. However, if your goal were to make only a PJ type of dough (which I know is not what you are planning to do), then in due course you would be able to reproduce that dough more or less by feel and by using volume measurements, just like Dom DeMarco.

Peter


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #163 on: March 28, 2010, 05:10:01 PM »
Peter, you are right.  I made a mistake and corrected the ADY for the IDY.  I also agree that using volume measurements is more applicable to the same formulation used day in and day out.  It's sort of fun for me to practice volume measurements for dry ingredients and even OO poured out of my oil dispenser.

You've definitely peaked my curiousity at the differences of commercial yeast vs. a natural starter.   I got a tough question for you but you may still be able to help.

I'm interested in testing my natural starter vs ADY in a side by side pizza comparison.  I'd like to make one pie using just my natural starter vs another pie with just ADY.   So assuming that my natural starter is 50% flour and 50% water and that it is a typically active and healthy culture, is there a way to find an equivalent amount using ADY?

If you had to guess, what would be an equivalent amount of ADY to 15gm of natural starter (or approx. 1T)?

TIA


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #164 on: March 28, 2010, 08:31:19 PM »
Tran,

The matter of substituting sourdough starters for commercial yeast called for in recipes comes up from time to time. See, for example, http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howdoiconvertyeastbreadrec.html and also http://www.sourdoughhome.com/convert.html. On the forum, one such conversion is given in a Neapolitan dough formulation at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg12915/topicseen.html#msg12915. However, in this latter instance, the dough is fermented at room temperature with a bulk rise followed by division of the bulk dough into individual pieces that undergo further fermentation. The conversion factor might or might not translate to a cold fermentation application.

I am not sure whether I have a good answer to your question or even if the above methods are reliable but I think it might help to know more about the way you have been using your starter to make pizza dough. I assume that you have been cold fermenting your doughs leavened with your natural starter. However, it is not clear whether you have made doughs leavened entirely by your natural starter. If you have done so, can you tell me how much starter you used in relation to some reference point (such as the weight of the formula flour or total dough batch weight), if the dough went directly into the refrigerator after being made (i.e., no riposo), and what amount of rise (e.g., a doubling) took place when time came to use the dough, and how long did it take for the the dough to reach that point? Knowing the answers to these questions might allow me to estimate an amount of ADY to use to achieve a similar final condition of the dough, in this case, a PJ clone dough.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #165 on: March 28, 2010, 09:41:26 PM »
Oooh good question.  I guess I haven't made pizzas using just the natural starter.  I have always done a combination of starter and ADY, or ADY alone. 
   But when i do use a starter, I usually use 15gm (1Tbs per 275-300gm doughball).  Doughball rise is also subjective b/c as it rises it also flattens so it's really hard to guestimate.  One can say it looks like the doughball has doubled or tripled but that is truely just a guestimation. 

I have seen in previous posts mentioned of using the poppy seed technique, so I may read up on that and apply it if possible.  I think for the first test I may use 15gm of starter vs. 1/2 tsp of ADY per 300gm doughball.   I will employ the poppy seed technique and report back my findings.  I think after the first test, we will have a basis on how to convert equipotent amounts of starter vs ADY.

I may have to start this test next weekend or even after since I have 4 doughballs cold fermenting in the fridge at the moment for 2 different tests.  :-D

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #166 on: March 28, 2010, 10:16:59 PM »
Tran,

What size PJ clone dough balls do you plan to use for your test and how long do you plan to cold ferment the dough balls? I assume you will be making one dough ball with the natural starter and one dough ball with the ADY and process them in parallel.

Peter


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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #167 on: March 28, 2010, 10:31:35 PM »
Yes Peter I plan on testing them side by side.  One pie with natural starter and one with ADY.  I plan on using making 2 (12") pies & doing a 3 day cold ferment and possible a different test with a 24 emergency dough or even a same day dough.  The 3 day cold ferment should also reveal characteristics of yeast (natural or commercial) strength and activity
  My goal is to test to see if a natural starter really does impart a better flavor or if any over ADY.  Does using starter equate to a better end result?  I'm not sure that I will be using the PJ's recipe tho.  I may be using a different recipe just to try something new or whatever strikes my fancy at the moment.  I am aiming for each doughball to weigh between 275-300gm for a 12" pie.  This is the typical size pizza I like to make.  I will keep the ingredient weights and methods as close as possible with the only variable being the source of yeast.   
  I'm interested in this experiment b/c i have always taken it at face value that a natural starter will impart (better) flavor to the crust.  I have no issue accepting that, except I did notice that recipes such as GB's  (that uses commercial yeast) calls for a 6-10 day cold ferment for increase flavor.  I'm not quite sure if the "flavor" is coming from the commercial yeast itself or as a result of the break down of gluten and/or byproducts of yeast metabolism or both.     
  If using a recipe other than the PJ's clone recipe, I will be starting a new thread as to not derail this one. 

Thanks again for your help.

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #168 on: March 28, 2010, 10:47:28 PM »
Tran,

That's fine. However, off the top of my head I don't think that your two 300-gram dough balls, one with 15 grams of starter and one with 1/2 teaspoon of ADY, will exhibit similar performance, for example, in terms of volume expansion, over a three day cold fermentation period. That applies not only to a PJ clone dough but almost any other that is subjected to a three day cold fermentation period. I would have to play around with some dough formulations to back up my tentative conclusion.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #169 on: March 29, 2010, 12:09:37 AM »
Any suggestions you have would be appreciated and helpful.  I would like to use about 15gm of my starter per 300gm dough ball and any equivalent amount of ADY you think is appropriate would work as a starting point.  I trust your judgement over mine at this point.   I'm in no hurry though.   Thanks again. 

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #170 on: March 29, 2010, 11:34:39 AM »
Tran,

While the matter is fresh in my mind, I took the basic PJ clone dough formulation and converted it to apply to the two situations you mentioned--one 300-gram dough ball using 1/2 teaspoon of ADY and a second 300-gram dough ball using 15 grams of your 50/50 natural starter. For the ADY dough ball, I got the following using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
ADY (1.08%):
Salt (1.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (170.08%):
176.39 g  |  6.22 oz | 0.39 lbs
98.78 g  |  3.48 oz | 0.22 lbs
1.9 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
2.65 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
12.88 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.84 tsp | 0.95 tbsp
7.41 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.86 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Right off the bat, at 1.08% ADY (1/2 t.), I know that the dough will not make it out to 3 days of cold fermentation and perform the same as a like-size dough ball with 15 grams of natural starter. At 1.08% ADY, you are in emergency dough territory. You might be able to punch the dough down a few times to get it to go out to three days of cold fermentation but you will have altered the parameters to the point where the comparison would not be valid.

With respect to the 300-gram dough ball with your 15-gram 50/50 natural starter, I did a few calculations and used the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to come up with the following dough formulation:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
Salt (1.5%):
Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (169%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

177.51 g  |  6.26 oz | 0.39 lbs
99.41 g  |  3.51 oz | 0.22 lbs
2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
12.96 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.88 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
7.46 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.87 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
7.5 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs
7.5 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs
15 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs

 
170.01 g | 6 oz | 0.37 lbs
91.91 g | 3.24 oz | 0.2 lbs
2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
15 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs
12.96 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.88 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
7.46 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.87 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs  | TF = N/A
Note: Natural starter is 5% of total dough weight or 8.45% of the total flour; no bowl residue compensation

It is hard to say how much the dough represented in the above dough formulation will expand after three days of cold fermentation, but with the natural starter at 5% of the total dough weight, or 8.45% of the flour weight, the rise may not be dramatic. I once modified the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation to create a naturally-leavened cold fermentation version and it took 20% of the formula flour (or 10.8% of the total dough weight) for the dough to be ready after 45 hours of cold fermentation (see Reply 151 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774). Unfortunately, at the time I did not think to note the degree of volume expansion but my recollection is that it was not dramatic. Also, my natural starter was usually on the weak side because I did not use it often enough.

As you can see, it is difficult to establish natural starter/commercial yeast conversions without having some reference point. In your case, as a starting point, you might make a 300-gram naturally leavened dough and monitor its expansion over time and note when it reaches a particular expansion value, such as a doubling, as by using the poppy seed method. I think I would use your natural starter at more than 8.45% of the flour weight, but maybe less than 20%. I have made many different types of cold fermented doughs using natural leavening, and my practice has been to use around 20% of the flour weight. Sometimes, as when using a weak starter, I might even use more. To the extent you end up with useful data to analyze should you decide to conduct an experiment along the lines mentioned above, then it should be easier to try to match an ADY version to that data for purposes of further experiments.

If you decide to use a dough formulation other than a PJ clone dough formulation and you start a new thread to detail your experiment, I can help you with the math if you need it.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #171 on: March 29, 2010, 12:59:45 PM »
Thank you for the numbers and insight Peter.  Based on your experience, I may just make 2 300gm doughballs, one with 30gm natural starter (~16% of the total dough weight) and the other with 1/4 tsp ADY.  I will apply the poppyseed technique to both balls and monitor daily to see the expansion rate and the total number of days before each doubles in size.    I can use this as a reference point for future tests as well.   

Thanks again. 

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #172 on: April 27, 2010, 03:12:34 PM »
Recently, as a submission to this month’s (April, 2010) Monthly Challenge, “Breakfast Pizza”, I decided to use a PJ emergency dough to make a pizza for that submission. The pizza, which is shown below and also at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10648.msg96744.html#msg96744, is a sausage gravy pizza with an egg. I decided on the PJ emergency dough for convenience so that the pizza could be made from beginning to end in a bit over two hours. The dough would not be an optimum dough, but it would save time. I also wanted to see if the PJ emergency dough was a good choice for a breakfast (or brunch) pizza. The pizza I made was smaller than I would normally make. It was a personal size, at 8”. The pizza was baked on a 9” pizza screen. For the 8” size, I scaled down the emergency dough formulation set forth at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. The scaled-down dough formulation that I actually used, from the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, is as follows:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (56.5%):
IDY (0.80%):
Salt (1.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Honey (5%):
Total (171.1%):
121.4 g  |  4.28 oz | 0.27 lbs
68.59 g  |  2.42 oz | 0.15 lbs
0.97 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
1.82 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
8.86 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.95 tsp | 0.65 tbsp
6.07 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
207.72 g | 7.33 oz | 0.46 lbs | TF = 0.1457682
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.14292; dough is for a single 8” pizza; bowl residue compensation = 2%

It will be noted from the above dough formulation that I used only King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF) this time rather than my usual blend of KABF and vital wheat gluten (such as the Hodgson Mill VWG). As I later discovered, this resulted in a softer and less chewy finished crust. So, if I were to use the above dough formulation again, I would personally replace part of the formula flour with VWG, based on achieving a total protein content for the blend of 14.2%. Alternatively, I might use a longer fermented PJ clone dough, possibly one fermented overnight, either at room temperature or in the refrigerator.

The dough was hand kneaded using the same methods as described in the abovementioned Reply 52, except that I did not sift the flour this time. The dough was allowed to ferment at room temperature (around 69.6 degrees F). It took a bit over an hour to double in volume, and almost two hours to triple in volume. It was after the two-hour fermentation that I decided to use the dough to form a skin to make the pizza. As the dough was fermenting, I prepared all of the ingredients to be used to assemble the pizza. These details are set forth at the above referenced Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10648.msg96744.html#msg96744 .

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #173 on: May 04, 2010, 09:43:57 PM »
With the foregoing posts as background, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at []pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the following recommended PJ dough clone formulation, which, based on the results I achieved, I believe represents a good starting point to make a very good PJ clone dough and pizza:

Flour (100%):
Water (56.5%):
IDY (0.14%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.8%):
Total (170.49%):
354.44 g  |  12.5 oz | 0.78 lbs
200.26 g  |  7.06 oz | 0.44 lbs
0.5 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
25.87 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.7 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
17.01 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.27 tsp | 1.42 tbsp
604.28 g | 21.31 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough ball weight = 21 oz. (for a 14" pizza); a nominal thickness factor of 0.136419; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Before proceeding further, some comments are appropriate.

First, I used King Arthur bread flour (KABF)—only because I do not have any high-gluten flour on hand. Although a high-quality bread flour, like the KABF, is a very good choice based on my results using that flour, my recommendation to others is to consider using a high-gluten flour if it is available. Typically, a high-gluten flour has a protein content of around 14%, as compared with 12.7% for the KABF. Although it is not entirely clear what flour PJ’s is currently using (it is a proprietary blend), in the past it has used high-gluten flour to prepare its dough. Its current flour is described only as being a “high protein” flour (see, for example, []uppereast.com/papajohns.html).

...




Hey Pete,

I've decided to go ahead and follow this recipe as you state this is the closest tasting PJ-clone you've created.

However, I won't be using a dough blender (e.g. KitchenAid) but will be mixing/kneading the dough entirely by hand; are there any specific procedures I should follow that differ to the above method (such as increasing the bowl residue compensation to, perhaps, 2.5%)?

Some questions on my mind:

How long should the dough be kneaded for?

Will I have to alter the mixing steps to account for hand mixing and kneading?

What indicators do I look for to gauge the suitability of the dough?

I'm looking forward to this; just purchased a 14inch pizza screen for this pizza experiment. :)

« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 10:04:16 PM by james456 »

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Re: Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza
« Reply #174 on: May 05, 2010, 12:33:30 PM »
james456,

The particular Papa John's dough clone formulation you selected, at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197, may be one of the harder versions to execute using hand kneading. Hand kneading a roughly 21 ounce dough ball can take some time and if it is warm where you are, the finished dough temperature may be on the high side. If that happens, then the useful life of the dough can be shortened and may not make it out to five or more days. It is possible to use cold water, for example, right out of the refrigerator, to make the dough but cold water makes it more difficult to adequately hydrate the flour and, even then, the dough can fairly quickly approach room temperature during the hand kneading process.

However, if you are game and want to try a hand kneaded version of the abovereferenced dough formulation, I think I would use the hand kneading approach described at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg63672.html#msg63672 except that you would be working with all water, not a mix of milk and water. That post gives a typical knead time and attempts to describe the finished dough condition but, as is often true with hand kneading, the knead time can vary from one person to another. The key point is to work fast so as to get the dough into the refrigerator as soon as possible.

Since I was trying to replicate an authentic PJ pizza dough using the abovereferenced clone dough formulation, I did not attempt a hand kneaded version. So, if you proceed, I hope you will share your results with us, including photos if possible.

Peter