Author Topic: Need help getting the PERFECT looking pizza Crispy and the middle dough cooked  (Read 7044 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 100million

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Bend, Oregon
Bill or anyone

I have been trying to make wood fired pizza.  And I am having a problem with the way I want the crust to turns out.

I have a wood fired Dome oven the floor gets about 580-650and the roof gets 950-1050

I can get the Pizza to look good and it taste good, BUT the edge of the pizza does not get cracker crust and in middle of the pizza is soggy or like not done.

It only takes about 2 mins at the most to cook it  I turn it 180 in about 1 min.

I only put sauce, lite shredded cheese, fresh mozz and fresh vine rip tomatos.

I use this recipe for the dough

574 g high gluten Flours
12 g sea salt
3 g instant yeast
57 g olive oil
397 g cold water

I got this Recipe from Peter Reinhart’s Napoletana Pizza Dough

I follow the recipes and mixing and raising instruction

Sauce is
1 can tomato sauce
1 can died tomatoes
Spices


If you can give me some ideas that would get me on the right track, that would be nice and I would be grateful.

I am not sure what I am doing wrong.

If I lower my hydrations will that make it crisper? And cook the middle of the pizza?

If I could just get it CRISPY like a cracker it would be perfect.  :chef: :chef: :chef: >:D >:D

I hope you can help

Chris Richer


Offline Pizza_Not_War

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 388
  • Location: Portland OR
Chris,

I don't have a WFO. However from all the reading I have done combined with my use of the 2Stone oven I can tell you that the variance between your oven floor and dome temperatures is a big one. At 600 degrees on the floor stone (2stone oven) I would be @3-4+ minutes to cook a pizza. And if I had 1000 degrees air temps above it then the top would burn while the bottom was cooking.

Tell us more about your oven so that those that have them can help you nail down the problem.

PNW

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4040
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Chris,

First, you're going to have decide what kind of crust you are aiming for. This is the Neapolitan board, home of high-hydration doughs that produce light, soft crusts, not crackery ones. Perhaps you should take a look at the Cracker Crust board. You will see dough formulas there that are very different from the one you are using. These may help you get the result you are seeking.

Offline 100million

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Bend, Oregon
Bill with all that said

The middle of the pizza is not right.

It is soggy

Can't you get puffy soft looking dough with a thin crisp outer surface  (like Fresh French Bread out of the oven?) 

But, the over all appearance of the pizza looks Awesome

Any Ideas?

Chris
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 10:40:44 AM by 100million »

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4040
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Chris,

An unevenly baked pie is the result of unbalanced application of heat within the time period you have selected for baking. In a WFO, heat is transferred to the pie from the floor, from the air around the pie, and from the coals, fire, and dome. These all need to be carefully adjusted for all parts of the pie to reach the desired doneness at the same time. The thickness of the crust edges, middle/toppings will also affect how long each of those takes to bake. If I notice the crust is done, but the toppings need a bit more cooking, I briefly lift the pie close to the top of the oven where it gets a quick blast of heat. 

Yes you can get a puffy dough with a crisp outer layer, but I would have no idea how to achieve this with the dough formula or oven temps you are using. Are you baking on a ~600F deck for a specific reason?

Bill/SFNM


Offline 100million

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Bend, Oregon
Bill

What temp should my deck be?  Why did you say  Are you baking on a ~600F deck for a specific reason? Should it be different?

What should I try to use? (es you can get a puffy dough with a crisp outer layer, but I would have no idea how to achieve this with the dough formula or oven temps you are using)

Could my pie be too thin?

Could my sauce be too liquidy?

The pie looks great cooked all around and toppings look great


Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4040
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
If you are trying to make authentic Neapolitan pies, then 600F is way too low. If you are trying to make an American pie, it may be too high. My deck is 900-1000F, but I think it would be  unsatisfactory if I used your dough formula, but I've never tried.   

Your pie could be too thin and your sauce too liquid, but how are we to know?  Why don't you make the pie thicker next time? And the time after that, make the sauce thicker? You may be just a few tweaks away from the perfect pizza for you or you may have a great deal of experimenting ahead.

And it doesn't matter how the pie looks if the taste and texture are wrong. Some of my worst pies have looked gorgeous.

Bill/SFNM

 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 12:11:45 PM by Bill/SFNM »

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Oops, started this one a while ago and there have been 4 posts since then.  Hopefully there is nothing redundant here, but I have a few tips if you do want to stick with a neapolitan style pizza.

Your sauce probably has too much water in it. Neapolitan pizza tends to have much less sauce than a typical american pizza, almost to the point where it is barely covering the top of the dough.  The faster you pizza bakes the less time the water in the sauce has to evaporate. If you want to use a more "american" amount of sauce try adding paste, or drain your tomatoes after crushing in a fine wire mesh strainer.

Yes, lowering your hydration would definitely help you to get a crispier dough that is more thoroughly cooked in the center.  Although you tend to see high hydrations here in the neapolitan section of our forum it is actually the lower temperature New York style pizzas that I think really benefit from a wetter dough. I bake both high temp pizzas and normal 550 degree pizzas all the time and I actually prefer a slightly dryer dough for the high temp pizzas.

Your dough could be under or over kneaded which would cause it to have less oven spring and be more prone to gumming up.

Neapolitan pizza is very very thin, often described as credit card thickness.  If your dough is thicker it is not going to cook all the way through at high temps.

A few people who have traveled to naples (including a highly esteemed forum member) have come back to report to me that they found the pizza to be soggy even at the best pizzerias.  Along with the potential for too much moisture comes the benefit of a very fresh tasting pizza, but a delicate balance needs to be achieved so that it is dry enough and it bakes fast enough for the fresh flavor to shine through. It takes a master to perfect the art of this style of pizza, so keep working at it and perfecting your recipe until you find one that matches your oven.  


« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 12:16:27 PM by scott r »

Offline Essen1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3265
  • Location: SF Bay Area
    • The Hobby Cook
Even though I don't have a WFO, only an LBE, I found this info here quite helpful:

http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_oven.htm

Mike
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline pftaylor

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1113
  • Location: Tampa, FL
  • Life's Short. Get Wood Fired Up!
Here's my 2 cents:
Bill/SFNM is right you are fishing in the wrong honey hole.

Having said that, there are numerous thoughts which come to my mind which may be helpful. At the risk of boring you and others, kindly allow me to ruminate. Perhaps one or more of these thoughts will prove useful in your search for a crust more like a saltine cracker:

- Use less sauce. Much less sauce. A lighter hand will work wonders. Less is more here. The proof point is to bake an undressed skin for the normal amount of time and observe the charring. If your crust is only charred on bottom and the side of the rim then you don’t have enough top (dome) heat as the crust is baking primarily from below and from the live flame. How long do you fire the oven before baking? Another suggestion here is to move the placement of the skin away from the fire as far as possible and then lift the skin to the dome for a short time frame to char the top of the pie at the end of the baking process. A compromise to be sure but it requires the least amount of changes on your part and may get you 80% of the way there. Make sense?

- Consider building a smaller fire and increase the bake time to approximately four minutes. Maybe five minutes or more and make sure to place the skin as far from the live flame as possible. Heck, ten minutes might be ideal but two minutes is not enough time for a cracker crust unless you have uniform heat on the top and bottom which I’m surmising you don’t. Even then, a cracker crust is hard to produce. The take home message here is try a longer bake…

- You are using an inappropriate recipe for your desired crust profile. Most of Reinhart’s recipes stink, even for veterans, so I’m not surprised you are having difficulty. I have attempted to make a few of his pies and they were “okay.” The recipes on this site are tops in the pizza business for home pizza baking. So switch recipes to one suggested for cracker crusts.

- Cracker crusts require less hydration and longer bake times among other things. Frankly, your home oven could produce a cracker crust much better than a WFO could

- Take photographs of your baked crust so the helpful forum membership here can really help. Sometimes two sets of eyes are better than one. You might be surprised at our thoughts once we see what you and your oven produce

- Buy a laser temperature gun if you don’t already own one. It is the only way to begin to understand your oven

- Consider sharing your dough management process with us as well

Finally, can you post a photograph of what you’re ideal pizza looks like?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 01:48:49 PM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com


Offline ebpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 161
inspirational video...
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYIEN0oSvgc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYIEN0oSvgc</a>

Offline 100million

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Bend, Oregon
inspirational video...
youtube.com/watch?v=GYIEN0oSvgc

I dont think the link works

Offline 100million

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Bend, Oregon
Bill or Others :)

If you think my recipe for the dough is different then yours.   Can you direct me to your recipe and the way you make it so I can try it? 

Are you at 62 Hydration?

And How do you get your floor at 900?

I think I can only go to 650 after 1.5-2 hours of heating it up....Should I try to get it up higher?

All the info is great and TY FOR EVERYTHING YOU GUYS ARE HELPING ME ON SO FAR

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4040
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Oven is fired for about 4 hours, depending on starting temp of oven. This dough will NOT work well at 600F if you are looking for soft and puffy crust.

100% Caputo Pizzeria flour
62% hydration including starter
3%-5% fully activated starter culture (percentage of total dough weight) 3% for 2-day room temp dough, 5% for 1-day room temp.
3% salt

Sparsely topped (80-100g sauce, 80-100g cheese). Baking time ~45 seconds. 240g dough balls. Note, my pies are puffier at the edges than typical Neapolitan pies because that is the way I like them.

As you can see, this is pretty far from your recipe. Not that it is better than anyone else's. This is simply what makes me happy.  :)

 
 

Offline 100million

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Bend, Oregon
It is all about MAKING POPPA HAPPY

If I dont have starter

How much yeast?  do you think would be close? and do you have that video on the process of how to make your dough?

Chris

I will try to fire mine for 4 hours to see if i can get the floor hotter ....... Maybe it will transfer to the floor from the dome

Chris

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4040
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
See Pete-zza's post about starter/yeast conversions. Since I don't use commercial yeast, someone else will have to answer your question.

Here is my old video on making dough:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQd38yoND0g" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQd38yoND0g</a>




Offline Bryan S

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 496
  • Location: Lancaster, PA
Sounds like to me you are rushing the pre-heat phase. Cold deck, hot top you need to do a longer preheat IMO.
Making great pizza and learning new things everyday.

Offline 100million

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Bend, Oregon
Well with all things said

I want to thank you Guys or Gals for all the help.  If you think I need to change things I will try again later.

I will try to send some pictures of oven and outdoor kitchen tomorrow along with Pie pictures

But Here is what I am going to try tomorrow

Dough Slow Rise...................

I just made it and formed 4 250 g balls

100% Flour High Gluten 583 g or 20.5 oz
62% Water 361 g or 12.75 oz
.6% IDY 3.5 g or .12 oz
2.1% Salt 12.26 g or .43 oz
10% Oil 58.5 g or 36 oz

Mix dry stuff and then wet stuff mix for 6 Minutes dough hook on med Kitchen-aid

make balls
Put on cookie tray and wrap in plastic bag and seal
Start heating oven for about 4 hours (we will see if the heat will transfer to the floor in 4 hours instead of 2)
Let rise until 4pm tomorrow in refer
take out for 2 hours still covered
Shape in about 9 inch pies
Light Sauce (1 can tomato sauce 1 can paste spices)
Light shredded cheese
Fresh mozz
Tomato's The non salmonella ones  :-D :-D :D ;D

Bake ( i hope 90 seconds )

EAT

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4040
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
The oil could be a problem. The crust may be softer, but fats conduct heat much better than water and could cause the crust to cook too quickly.

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1877
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
I agree the oil could be a problem.  That's a lot of oil for a pizza to be baked at such high temperatures.

I wanted to make one technical clarification though about thermal conductivity.  Even I have stated in the past that oil has a "better" thermal conductivity than water, but the word "better" was used to describe a more subjective quality rather than an objective quality such as the word "higher" would indicate.  The fact is fat is a slower conductor of heat.  That's why our body uses fat as an insulator.  The reason it is a "better" conductor of heat than water when it comes to cooking is twofold.  First, it has a higher boiling point so it can reach higher temperatures.  Second, it is also a poor heat capacitor overall, so it takes less time/energy for it to reach a given temperature.  In fact, although water conducts heat about 3.412 times faster than olive oil, olive oil stores about 2.124 times less heat per unit of mass below 100°C.  However, that's per unit of mass per unit of temperature, so just as soon at the temperature rises above 212.4°C (414.32°F), the oil begins to store more heat than liquid water.  Of course above 100°C at standard pressure water turns to gas, which lowers its specific heat capacity by about half, so depending on the the pressure in the dough during baking, oil becomes the dominant heat capacitor between 100 and 212.4 °C.

The differences between oil and water are academic since what matters is the difference between dough with a little oil and dough with a lot of oil.  The doughs I make have about twice the thermal conductivity and about 29% higher heat capacity than olive oil at room temperature.  Although the water in the dough evaporates, my dough doesn't, so oil becomes more critical at higher temperatures.  I estimate that the critical temperature gradient begins at around 473.63°F.

- red.november


 

pizzapan