Author Topic: Need help getting the PERFECT looking pizza Crispy and the middle dough cooked  (Read 7441 times)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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red.november,

Thank you for the clarification. Then, in practical terms, is it accurate to state that a dough with fat in it will reach a given temperature faster than a dough without fat? Thanks.

Bill/SFNM


Offline November

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Then, in practical terms, is it accurate to state that a dough with fat in it will reach a given temperature faster than a dough without fat? Thanks.

Yes, but only after a critical temperature is reached will fat carry more heat.  People often get heat and temperature confused with each other, thinking that they're one and the same.  Two substances with different specific heat capacities, based on their chemical bond structure and atomic or molar mass, may be measured to have the same temperature even though one is storing a lot more heat.

100% Flour High Gluten 583 g or 20.5 oz
62% Water 361 g or 12.75 oz
.6% IDY 3.5 g or .12 oz
2.1% Salt 12.26 g or .43 oz
10% Oil 58.5 g or 36 oz


As long as I'm posting again, I thought I would clear up a little math trouble too.

2.1% Salt 12.24 g or .43 oz
10% Oil 58.3 g or 2.06 oz
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 10:43:36 AM by November »

Offline 100million

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Outdoor Kitchen 1

Offline 100million

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Outdoor Kitchen 2

Offline 100million

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Pizza Oven

Offline 100million

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Pizza pie Whole

Offline 100million

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Pizza Pie Cut

Offline 100million

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Leopard'ing

I will talk about Results after company leaves and post to all

Thanks for everything

I think i still need some tweaking of dough....

Chris
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 11:39:45 PM by 100million »

Offline Bryan S

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I agree the oil could be a problem.  That's a lot of oil for a pizza to be baked at such high temperatures.

I wanted to make one technical clarification though about thermal conductivity.  Even I have stated in the past that oil has a "better" thermal conductivity than water, but the word "better" was used to describe a more subjective quality rather than an objective quality such as the word "higher" would indicate.  The fact is fat is a slower conductor of heat.  That's why our body uses fat as an insulator.  The reason it is a "better" conductor of heat than water when it comes to cooking is twofold.  First, it has a higher boiling point so it can reach higher temperatures.  Second, it is also a poor heat capacitor overall, so it takes less time/energy for it to reach a given temperature.  In fact, although water conducts heat about 3.412 times faster than olive oil, olive oil stores about 2.124 times less heat per unit of mass below 100C.  However, that's per unit of mass per unit of temperature, so just as soon at the temperature rises above 212.4C (414.32F), the oil begins to store more heat than liquid water.  Of course above 100C at standard pressure water turns to gas, which lowers its specific heat capacity by about half, so depending on the the pressure in the dough during baking, oil becomes the dominant heat capacitor between 100 and 212.4 C.

The differences between oil and water are academic since what matters is the difference between dough with a little oil and dough with a lot of oil.  The doughs I make have about twice the thermal conductivity and about 29% higher heat capacity than olive oil at room temperature.  Although the water in the dough evaporates, my dough doesn't, so oil becomes more critical at higher temperatures.  I estimate that the critical temperature gradient begins at around 473.63F.

- red.november
Just exactly how do expect the common man to understand this post? :o For the 3 rocket scientists here, it's prob great info, Go NASA. For the other 6684 of us, this means nothing.  ??? ??? ??? Sorry, not going to get a calculator out to make pizza dough.  ::) Lets take a poll and see how many even have the slightest clue of what you said. I really mean no harm but, come on, lets be real here.  ;)
Making great pizza and learning new things everyday.

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Just exactly how do expect the common man to understand this post? :o For the 3 rocket scientists here, it's prob great info, Go NASA. For the other 6684 of us, this means nothing.  ??? ??? ??? Sorry, not going to get a calculator out to make pizza dough.  ::) Lets take a poll and see how many even have the slightest clue of what you said. I really mean no harm but, come on, lets be real here.  ;)
LOL .. I don't fully understand all of his posts, but I have nothing against learning. Last I checked he is not paid to dumb down his writing style so that all readers can follow his precise posts.

6684 people can just bypass his posts.

btw - if you meant no harm why even mention it ??
It is supposed to be a forum about making pizza, not getting prickly about other peoples writing style.

PNW


Offline November

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Just exactly how do expect the common man to understand this post?

I guess the same way older kids understand it when they learn it in school.  Even if some of the details were lost on someone, I would certainly hope they can understand what the numbers with the little degree symbols next to them represent.  Since I only posted essentially three temperatures, one might expect they have a determinant significance.  Most people know 100C is the boiling point of water, so that narrows it to just 414.32F and 473.63F.  Ultimately 473.63F is the only temperature that follows the term, "critical" in a sentence, not to mention the fact it's the final temperature stated, and considering the post began with a problem statement phrased in plain English ("I agree the oil could be a problem.  That's a lot of oil for a pizza to be baked at such high temperatures."), a lot of oil above 473.63F could be a problem.  Deductive reasoning is the common man's friend.

Last I checked he is not paid to dumb down his writing style so that all readers can follow his precise posts.

Thank you.

Offline scott r

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100 million, It looks to me like your pizzas turned out great, but if you are going to keep changing things you might want to try this.   Drop your oil down significantly to roughly 1-2%. I wouldn't go above 4%.  For now I would make sure your dough balls only double (no more or less) before use, and try some fresh mozzarella.  You said you were using fresh mozzarella, but this looks to be dry mozzarella or some type of inferior fresh mozzarella, possibly even pre shredded (a big no no because of the cellulose!).  If your cheese was better matched to your oven you would be able to let the dough cook a bit longer.  Nice work, and what a beautiful space to bake pizzas in!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 11:33:14 AM by scott r »

Offline 100million

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Scott

Thanks for the comment

I will try what you said But I was only seeing if the oven would bake the pies right and was not worried about the cheese or sauce ( I opened a can of tomato sauce and use it right out of the can)  All my pie use Fresh Mozz balls.  I did not want to waste them on this test try

What I am looking for is a Puffy dough with a crisp thin outer like FRESH FRENCH bread that comes directly out of the oven

Any Ideas??

Offline scott r

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Drop the oil significantly and make sure your cheese is matched to your oven and your dough.  Good luck!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 10:03:42 PM by scott r »

Offline jeff v

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Any Ideas??

MY .02-Do everything the same next time except the oil. Post your results, thoughts and ask for feedback.

Your outdoor kitchen is a thing of beauty BTW.

Jeff
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.

Offline Essen1

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I agree the oil could be a problem.  That's a lot of oil for a pizza to be baked at such high temperatures.

I wanted to make one technical clarification though about thermal conductivity.  Even I have stated in the past that oil has a "better" thermal conductivity than water, but the word "better" was used to describe a more subjective quality rather than an objective quality such as the word "higher" would indicate.  The fact is fat is a slower conductor of heat.  That's why our body uses fat as an insulator.  The reason it is a "better" conductor of heat than water when it comes to cooking is twofold.  First, it has a higher boiling point so it can reach higher temperatures.  Second, it is also a poor heat capacitor overall, so it takes less time/energy for it to reach a given temperature.  In fact, although water conducts heat about 3.412 times faster than olive oil, olive oil stores about 2.124 times less heat per unit of mass below 100C.  However, that's per unit of mass per unit of temperature, so just as soon at the temperature rises above 212.4C (414.32F), the oil begins to store more heat than liquid water.  Of course above 100C at standard pressure water turns to gas, which lowers its specific heat capacity by about half, so depending on the the pressure in the dough during baking, oil becomes the dominant heat capacitor between 100 and 212.4 C.

The differences between oil and water are academic since what matters is the difference between dough with a little oil and dough with a lot of oil.  The doughs I make have about twice the thermal conductivity and about 29% higher heat capacity than olive oil at room temperature.  Although the water in the dough evaporates, my dough doesn't, so oil becomes more critical at higher temperatures.  I estimate that the critical temperature gradient begins at around 473.63F.

- red.november

RN (red.november),

Could you illustrate that for me once more? I have a basic understanding where you're coming from but it's another slow night for me.  ;D

Mike
Mike

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Offline November

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Could you illustrate that for me once more? I have a basic understanding where you're coming from but it's another slow night for me.  ;D

What are you wanting a better understanding of?  All I did was present details of how much greater a heat conductor fat becomes above a certain temperature in order to support the analysis of there being too much fat in the dough for a high temperature bake.

- red.november