Author Topic: 00 flour or 'very strong white flour' in supermarket? (Read 7069 times)

paulhdi · « **on:** June 20, 2008, 11:52:47 AM »

hi everyone,

i was in a large Tesco supermarket today,and noticed they had some 00 grade flour, and also along with the other flour, they had the Allinsons branded 'very strong white flour'. now which do you think would be better for my pizza dough? the blurb on the side of the 00 grade flour was about it being much smoother etc. wasnt much info on the very strong flour packet.

any help would be gratefully appreciated. i'm wanting to make an american style pizza, a bit like the dominos kinda base if possible.

Many thanks
Paul

Pizza_Not_War · « **Reply #1 on:** June 20, 2008, 12:09:42 PM »

I don't know what "very strong white flour" is. I would assume it means High Gluten. The 00 flour might not work well for you in a home oven, so I would actually buy both flours and do a mix. Can't help with percentages since I really don't know the relevant data from the two flours. I am guessing that I would do an 80/20 mix with the 00/VSWF.

Good luck, post more questions when you get the flour.

PNW

paulhdi · « **Reply #2 on:** June 20, 2008, 12:26:25 PM »

thanks PNW,

will check them both, as i just read something about protein levels being an indicator of gluten level? or did i just get that all wrong lol

will buy both and post my results. damn, i feel hungry now, thinking about a nice pizza!

Paul

Pete-zza · « **Reply #3 on:** June 20, 2008, 12:40:47 PM »

Paul,

Earlier this year I looked into the Allinson flour as is available in the UK and reported on same at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6245.msg53696.html#msg53696. If you are interested in a Domino's style pizza, you want to use the Allinsons very strong white flour, not the 00 flour.

Peter

paulhdi · « **Reply #4 on:** June 20, 2008, 12:59:23 PM »

excellent, thanks very much peter, looks like that's gonna be my purchase in the morning.

looks like tomorrow is pizza making day lol

many thanks

Paul

Pizza_Not_War · « **Reply #5 on:** June 20, 2008, 01:53:37 PM »

As usual Peter comes up with the "facts". I would listen to his advice as my post was unclear. I suggested that "I" would do an 80/20 mix, meaning for my high temp 2stone grill.

I was pre-occupied with bottling my first ever batch of "Lager" and forgot to recommend a search of the flours on pizzamaking.com

I learn something new everyday on this site!

PNW

Pete-zza · « **Reply #6 on:** June 21, 2008, 08:52:48 AM »

Paul,

Since you mentioned Domino's, do you know offhand whether the Domino's dough is made in their stores in the UK? I believe that in some countries, Domino's is either delivering dough to the stores or using frozen dough. In case you are interested, you can see what goes into the different Domino's doughs in the U.S. at http://www.dominos.com/home/menu/dominos_nutrition.pdf and, for the Brooklyn style dough, at http://www.dominos.com/home/menu/nutrition.jsp#brook and http://www.dominos.com/home/menu/ingredients.jsp#brook_list.

Peter

paulhdi · « **Reply #7 on:** June 21, 2008, 10:41:38 AM »

hi peter,

i bought the allinsons flour earlier today, so will be trying it out later. checked the supermarkets own brand strong white flour and that had an 11% protein ratio, compared to the allinsons 13.9 i think.

so if i make the dough this afternoon, should i leave it overnight at least?

would there be a different recipe if i wanted to make a pizza to have on the same day?

i also bought some unglazed tiles to cook the pizza on, so fingers crossed.

next time i go to my girlfreinds, they have a dominos about 10 min away, so will ask if they know.

oooooooooh, if i could recreate a dominos texas BBQ, i may be in food heaven lol

Paul

Edit:

Peter, i just read the dominos pdf from here in the Uk, and it mentions - Fresh Dough Ball (wheatflour, water, salt, sugar, vegetable
oil, yeast, ascorbic acid, cornmeal), forgive my silly questions, but what is ascorbic acid, and do i need to add it?

Paul

Essen1 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 21, 2008, 11:44:28 AM »

Hi Paul,

The longer you let the dough retard in the fridge, the more flavor it will have. I don't know, however, if Domino's makes the dough for same day use or if they let it sit for a couple of days.

The plain term for ascorbic acid is Vitamin C. If I'm informed correctly, it's a dough conditioner. Pete knows probably a lot more about that subject and how it's properly used in pizza dough.

Quote

Ascorbic acid: Creates an acidic environment for the yeast which helps it work better. It also acts as a preservative & deters mold and bacterial growth. With just a touch of ascorbic acid, your Artisan breads, the yeast will work longer and faster. French bakers add it to their French bread, baguette or boule recipe.

If you can't find pure ascorbic acid crystals you can use Fruit Fresh (canning isle) or a crushed/powdered vitamin C tablet, but measure accordingly

Hope that helps.

Here's an interesting link about Domino's: http://www.dominos.com/home/menu/ingredients.jsp

Mike

Pete-zza · « **Reply #9 on:** June 21, 2008, 12:30:36 PM »

Paul,

Is this the Domino's UK pdf document you were referring to: http://www.dominos.uk.com/pdf/FoodGuide_Pizzasnz.pdf? If so, I noticed that all of the pizzas using the fresh dough seem to be light from a weight standpoint. I also noticed that the Domino's UK pdf document does not specify pizza sizes or the numbers of slices for its pizzas. Can you tell me what the typical pizza sizes are for the Domino's pizzas in the UK, in either centimeters or inches, and the corresponding numbers of slices per pizza? The Texas BBQ pizza you mentioned has a per-slice weight of 82.3 grams for a "large" pizza. If there are eight slices per pizza (the number used in the U.S.), then the total pizza weight would be 658.4 grams, or 23.22 ounces. An unbaked Texas BBQ pizza might weigh only a bit more. If we assume that 4 ounces of cheese and 4 ounces of BBQ sauce are used on the pizza (just a guess on my part), that would leave a dough ball weight of about 16 ounces. That might work to produce a thin 14" pizza.

The dough recipe you recited looks to be a fairly straightforward recipe. In the U.S., the law requires that the ingredients be listed by order of predominance by weight. Do you know if that also the law in the UK? If so, if you can get an idea as to a typical dough ball weight and a corresponding pizza size, you should be able to come up with a dough recipe that should produce a reasonable Domino's dough/pizza "clone". Unfortunately, I could not find anything from the brief research I conducted on Domino's/UK to provide or suggest an answer to that question.

As Mike noted, ascorbic acid is simply Vitamin C. It is commonly used as a dough conditioner to strengthen the dough. In the U.S., it is often used as a substitute for potassium bromate in flours. In the UK, and in the EU in general, potassium bromate in flours is outlawed. So, I suspect that the ascorbic acid is used as a substitute. It does not perform chemically the same way as potassium bromate and it isn't considered to be as effective, but that is the situation that prevails in the UK as regard bromating of flours. When used, the amount of ascorbic acid should be on the low side, maybe a pinch. Ascorbic acid is usually available in dry powder form or as tablets in your local pharmacy or health food store. You can grind a tablet if that is the only form available to you.

It is possible to make a dough that will last a few days under refrigeration or only several hours at room temperature (or possibly a combination of both). A dough that is to be cold fermented and used over a day or more will usually have a small amount of yeast and use cool/cold water in its preparation. A dough that is to be made and used within a few hours will usually have a fairly high amount of yeast and use warm water in its preparation. In the U.S., I believe that Domino's uses principally cold fermentation with the objective of having a dough that will last several days. However, I do not know if this is also the case in the UK for the stores that use fresh dough.

Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #10 on:** June 21, 2008, 01:24:32 PM »

Paul,

I did a little bit more searching and, according to http://www.ciao.co.uk/Domino_s_Pizza__Review_5312787, there are apparently three Domino's pizza sizes in the UK: 9.5" (small), 11.5" (medium) and 13.5" (large). I read elsewhere that the large pizza has 10 slices, not eight as in the U.S. So, on this basis, the Texas BBQ pizza would weigh 823 grams, or 29.03 ounces. An unbaked Texas BBQ pizza with only BBQ sauce and cheese on top of the crust might weigh a few ounces more. Now, all we need to know is how much a dough ball used to make a 13.5" pizza weighs. If the dough is made fresh in the UK Domino's near where your girlfriend's lives, they should know the answer to that question, and may even tell you. If you get the answer, please let me know.

I don't know what the practice is in the UK, but in the U.S., a large pizza with only sauce will quite often use more cheese than a pizza with another topping (e.g., pepperoni). Typically, it can be three cups of cheese for the former and two cups of cheese for the latter. In the U.S., Domino's uses diced mozzarella cheese from Leprino Foods. Leprino Foods has expanded into Europe by acquisition, so it is possible that they are supplying cheeses to the Domino's UK stores also. Unfortunately, Leprino cheeses are not sold at retail to individuals, only through foodservice companies.

For the BBQ sauce, you might write down the ingredients used to make Domino's BBQ sauce and see if there is anything close at the retail level or something that might easily be modified. According to Domino's UK nutrition information, their BBQ sauce is:

Barbecue Sauce (high fructose corn syrup, tomato paste, distilled vinegar, molasses, brown sugar, salt, modified food starch, spices, mustard bran, natural flavouring, onion and garlic powder, colour, lemon juice, preservative (E211)).

Peter

paulhdi · « **Reply #11 on:** June 21, 2008, 01:26:03 PM »

Hi peter,

these are the sizes they do here in the UK.

9.5" small
11.5" medium
13.5" large.

right, the recipe i was going to try was this one from reply #8 on the thread Randy- a request for you.

12” size:

KASL Flour (100%): 227.6 g | 8.03 oz | 0.5 lbs
Water (60%): 136.56 g | 4.82 oz | 0.3 lbs
Salt (3.3%): 7.51 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.35 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
IDY (1.6%): 3.64 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Oil (2.8%): 6.37 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.37 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Sugar (5.3%): 12.06 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.03 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
Honey (4.5%): 10.24 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.46 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
Total (177.5%): 403.99 g | 14.25 oz | 0.89 lbs | TF = 0.126

do i need to increase the amount of yeast if i wanted to cook it tonight, or would it be fine as it is?

Paul

paulhdi · « **Reply #12 on:** June 21, 2008, 01:31:07 PM »

once again, thanks peter for all the info you're providing.

well, next time i go in, i'll be sure to do some investigating, and post any results i get. Also just remembered, a friend of mine in london has a cousin who runs a few dominos places, so i may just have to pay him a visit and try and find out some bits and pieces.

I'm going to try the recipe listed in my last post later on, with some BBQ sauce i got in costco last week, that isnt too strong, so fingers crossed. also bought some supermarket branded mozarella that was vacuum packed and aimed at pizza.

Paul

Pete-zza · « **Reply #13 on:** June 21, 2008, 01:52:42 PM »

Paul,

As you were posting, I came across this article: http://www.whichfranchise.com/franchisorPage.cfm?CompanyID=275. As you will note, it discusses the basics of Domino's UK pizza business, from which it appears that the dough balls are delivered to the stores fresh from one or more commissaries. This is essentially the business model that Papa John's uses in the U.S., and suggests that the dough balls are cold fermented for long periods of time to keep deliveries to stores to about twice a week (see, for example, the discussion of the Papa John's business model at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58196.html#msg58196). I have discovered that the workers in the Papa John stores tend to know very little about the dough and other ingredients used to make the pizzas. So, you may discover that you will not be able to get much in the way of information on dough ball weights and the like.

Peter

paulhdi · « **Reply #14 on:** June 21, 2008, 01:55:08 PM »

thanks peter,

as regards my pizza effort for tonight, should i increae the yeast in the recipe listed below if i wanted to make it tonight?
12" size:

KASL Flour (100%): 227.6 g | 8.03 oz | 0.5 lbs
Water (60%): 136.56 g | 4.82 oz | 0.3 lbs
Salt (3.3%): 7.51 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.35 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
IDY (1.6%): 3.64 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Oil (2.8%): 6.37 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.37 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Sugar (5.3%): 12.06 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.03 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
Honey (4.5%): 10.24 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.46 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
Total (177.5%): 403.99 g | 14.25 oz | 0.89 lbs | TF = 0.126

Paul

Pete-zza · « **Reply #15 on:** June 21, 2008, 02:33:14 PM »

Paul,

The basic dough formulation you posted is member Randy's Papa John's clone dough formulation. The baker's percents represent my conversion of Randy's recipe to that format (at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5721.msg54842.html#msg54842). Your numbers for a 12" pizza based on the referenced baker's percents look correct. However, you may want to use a bowl residue compensation factor in the expanded dough calculating tool, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, to compensate for minor dough losses during the preparation of the dough. I suggest a bowl residue compensation value of 1.5%. That will give you the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (1.6%):
Salt (3.3%):
Olive Oil (2.8%):
Sugar (5.3%):
Honey (4.5%):
Total (177.5%):

231.02 g | 8.15 oz | 0.51 lbs
138.61 g | 4.89 oz | 0.31 lbs
3.7 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
7.62 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.37 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
6.47 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.44 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
12.24 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.07 tsp | 1.02 tbsp
10.4 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.49 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
410.05 g | 14.46 oz | 0.9 lbs | TF = 0.12789

As you may have read, Randy's recipe is intended to be used to make a cold fermented dough. If you decide to use your version of that recipe to make the dough for later tonight, and you use the water at 120 degrees F (as recommended by Randy) and ferment the dough at room temperature, I think that you will find that the dough expands very rapidly and may even climb out of the bowl and try to attack you

. Unless it is winter where you are and your kitchen is cold, the dough will be that aggressive. The maximum amount of IDY recommended for a several-hours (e.g., 4 hours) room temperature fermentation is about 1%. I recently made a same-day version of a Papa John's clone dough using a preferment and, for that dough, I used that maximum of 1% IDY (plus water at 65 degrees F). The pizza turned out fine and tasted fine, and while it looked a lot like an authentic PJ pizza, it did not taste exactly like an authentic PJ pizza. If you are interested, I showed a couple of photos of that pizza at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6749.msg58335.html#msg58335.

Peter

paulhdi · « **Reply #16 on:** June 21, 2008, 03:05:35 PM »

well, i think i may just make the dough as mentioned and leave it overnight, using the measurements you just gave that allowed for bowl residue etc.

looks like its sri lankan curry tonight,and pizza tomorrow.

many thanks for all your advice peter, it's really been invaluable.

Paul

Pete-zza · « **Reply #17 on:** June 21, 2008, 03:33:27 PM »

Paul,

If you'd like to see a "thin" version of a PJ clone pizza based on the same recipe you will be trying (but without a bowl residue compensation), see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310.

When you bake your pizza, you will want to carefully watch the bottom of the pizza as it bakes on your preheated tiles. Randy's clone dough apparently can be baked on a preheated pizza stone (or tiles) but with all of the sugar and honey in the dough it is possible for the bottom of the pizza to brown too quickly, and even turn black because of caramelization of the sugar and honey. Sometimes that condition can result before the rest of the pizza, and particularly the top of the pizza, is finished baking. What I will sometimes do in such a case is remove the pizza from the stone to a higher rack position in the oven. That will expose the top of the pizza to more heat while not affecting the bottom of the pizza as much as it would if it were still on the tiles. If you are in the position of buying a pizza screen, I suggest that you do so, whether it is for a PJ clone pizza or a Domino's style pizza. Both companies use pizza screens in the U.S. in their air impingement conveyor ovens.

I look forward to hearing back from you on how the Allinson flour works out, given that it is almost as high in protein content as our domestic high-gluten flours. If you are in a position to post photos of your results, they would be welcome also.

Peter

paulhdi · « **Reply #18 on:** June 21, 2008, 05:53:28 PM »

hey peter,

i have just done a search on pizza screens, and i think we have something suitable in the kitchen, a very fine mesh sheet. would that do? should i coat it in something to stop the pizza sticking? i'll hopefully be trying the pizza tomorrow, i just read about docking, will i have to do that to the dough before adding sauce and toppings? would the screen be best in the middle, or bottom of the oven?

Paul

Pete-zza · « **Reply #19 on:** June 21, 2008, 06:26:27 PM »

Paul,

I personally wouldn't use a screen-like material that is not intended for baking. I would only use a commercial pizza screen. It should be seasoned before use (as discussed elsewhere on the forum) but that would be the extent of it.

There is no need to dock the dough. The pizza makers at Papa John's do it, either to make the dough open up better or to minimize bubbling in the oven, but I have found docking to be unnecessary for an American style dough. Some pizza operators dock the dough because it is cold when they use it (I saw this at a Papa John's store not too long ago) but if you let the dough warm up before shaping and stretching you should be in good shape.

I have used pizza screens at different oven rack positions but, for my oven (electric, non-convection), the lowermost oven rack position seems to work best. For others, the middle oven rack position seems to work better. Using anything higher than that will give you a lot of top heat but not enough for the bottoms of pizzas. To get the right bottom bake, the proximity of the pizzas to the lower heating coil or a stone or tiles is needed.

Peter