Greek pizza

[norma427]

As I had posted before, I wanted to compare how a preferment Lehmann dough ball and a MA#2 dough ball would compare when making a Greek pizza in how the final pizza tasted and also how both bottoms browned, if the same amount of dough was used, both pies were baked at the same time, both were dressed the same, the same amount of manteca was added to the 10” steel pans, and the bake times were both the same.

I thought there were some interesting results from this experiment.  The bottom crusts did brown differently when the same amount of manteca was used, the bake times were both the same, and both pies were baked simultaneously.  The preferment Lehmann Greek pizza bottom crust didn’t brown as much as the MA#2 Greek pizza crust bottom.  My taste testers, Steve and I all tasted both pies and our favorite was the preferment Lehmann Greek pizza. 

Another interesting thing came out of this experiment, and a subsequent experiment for an emergency Greek pizza made by Steve.  I try to control how much cheese I used on any pizzas made for market, because it costs money for the cheeses applied.  If I had made this same pizza at home I probably would have added more cheese like Steve always does for his Greek pizzas.  I applied the same kinds blend of cheeses that Steve applied in his emergency Greek pizza, but didn’t apply near as much cheese that Steve did.  Steve’s pie had much better browning and crispness at the edges than my two experimental pies did.

The dressings used on both of my experimental pizzas was my regular sauce, spinach, cauliflower, and 3 blends of cheeses, being the mild cheddar the predominate cheese.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

I didn’t know Steve was going to make an emergency dough for a Greek pizza yesterday, but he made an emergency dough for a Greek pizza using the Stretch-Out product I had given him.  Steve had made the emergency dough in the mid-morning before he came to market.  Steve emergency dough pizza turned out better than both of my Greek pizzas experiments yesterday. Steve’s whole Greek pizza turned out better in the taste of the crust and had much better crispness at the edges of the pizza.  Steve only wiped a very small amount of manteca on his 10” steel pan with a paper towel for his experiment.   Steve did apply the same blend of cheeses I had used in my experiments, but used a lot more cheese than I did.

I am not sure exactly what formula Steve used for this experiment.  Steve said he would post his emergency dough formula for the pictures below.  Steve did add rosemary to his emergency dough.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Ev]

Norma,
Thanks for posting the pictures of my emergency dough pizza. As promised, here is the formula I used, plugging these numbers into the expanded dough calculator, and using the PZ-44 slot for the Stretch-out. This was for one 260g ball in a 10" pan.

Flour (KABF) 100%
Water           62%
IDY               .5% (sounds like a lot, but it's only about 1/4 t)
Sea Salt         1% ( I remembered that the Stretch-out was pretty salty by itself)
Canola Oil       1%
Sugar            2%
Stretch-out    1%

[Pete-zza]

As I had posted before, I wanted to compare how a preferment Lehmann dough ball and a MA#2 dough ball would compare when making a Greek pizza in how the final pizza tasted and also how both bottoms browned, if the same amount of dough was used, both pies were baked at the same time, both were dressed the same, the same amount of manteca was added to the 10” steel pans, and the bake times were both the same.

Norma,

In relation to the experiment referenced above, I thought that you might be interested in the recent thread at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10693. In that thread, a PMQTT member, who is in Massachusetts and specializes in the Greek style pizza, offered up the following information relative to his Greek style pizzas:

Dough hydration: 49-50%
Dough ball weight: 15 ounces for a 15" pizza and 7 ounces for a 10" pizza
Pan depth: 1"
Type of pan: solid (not perforated)

You will note that the above hydration value is about what I came up on with for the MA#1 and MA#2 recipes (for the MA#1 recipe I calculated the "effective" hydration because of the milk and eggs). In the above example, the pizza operator mentions how other operators use perforated pans, quite possibly to be able to use the perforated pans in conveyor ovens. During my visit to Massachusetts that resulted in the MA#1 and MA#2 recipes, the MA#1 pizza was baked in a deck oven, whereas the MA#2 pizza was baked in a conveyor oven in a non-perforated steel pan 1" deep (I know this because I was given one of their pans).

Using the dough ball weights mentioned above, I calculated a thickness factor for the 15" pizza of 15/(3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5) = 0.08488; the thickness factor for the 10" pizza is 7/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.08913. So, for all practical purposes, the crust thicknesses for the two sizes of pizzas should be essentially the same. For comparison purposes, both of the MA#1 and MA#2 recipes call for 8 ounces of dough for a 10" pizza and have a thickness factor of 0.101859.

For some reason, the members who have posted their results for Greek style pizzas in this thread seem to prefer using a more highly hydrated dough and thicker crusts. For example, for Steve's recent emergency Greek style pizza, in which he used a 260 gram dough ball, the corresponding thickness factor comes to (260/28.35)/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.1168.

One of the interesting points in the abovereferenced PMQTT thread that was made by Tom Lehmann is how the depth of the pan can affect how the top of the pizza bakes. I also found the dough management used by the PMQTT poster to prepare the skins for use of interest. Although Tom suggested using oil in the pan, the poster did not mention it. scott r once mentioned that oil was more common for pub style pizzas than Greek style pizzas, so it is possible that the poster does not oil his pans. That perhaps wouldn't be the best idea for those who use perforated pans anyway.

As usual, your pizzas and Steve's turned out great and look very tasty.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I was interested in the recent thread at PMQTT, about what the pizza operator in Massachusetts and Tom Lehmann had to say about the Greek style pizzas.  I didn’t see that thread.  Thanks for the link referencing that thread about Pan pizzas.  I did note that the hydration value is about what you came up with for the MA#1 and MA#2 formulations.  You sure used your detective work in coming up with the MA#1 and MA#2 formulas. I found the depth of the pan interesting and also the dough management used by the PMQTT poster interesting on how to prepare the skins.

I haven’t tried your MA#1 formula (with eggs and milk) you posted at Reply 242 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg144176.html#msg144176 and if I have time, I will try that formula next week with Superlative flour.  If I try that experiment next week, I will use a TF of 0.101859, which was the same TF I used for my MA# 2 experiment.  

I don’t think I asked Steve what flour he used in his experiment yesterday, but if he sees this post, maybe he will let us know what flour he used.  I was interested in his experiment because he used the Stretch-out product in combination with IDY.  I was worried that dough would ferment too much, but it didn’t seem to.  

Edit:  Steve did post what type of flour he used in his experiment yesterday.  I must not have looked at his post enough to see the flour was KABF. 

Norma

[scott r]

Although Tom suggested using oil in the pan, the poster did not mention it. scott r once mentioned that oil was more common for pub style pizzas than Greek style pizzas, so it is possible that the poster does not oil his pans. That perhaps wouldn't be the best idea for those who use perforated pans anyway.

Peter you are right.    I consider the oil in the pan to be the biggest thing that separates the bar style pizza, which is common south of boston, from the typical Greek style pizza which is more common within the city of boston and its immediate suburbs.   Another thing to note is that bar style pizza only comes in one small size, while greek pizza comes in a number of sizes from small to large.   Finally, bar style pizza is typically thinner.   The thickness of the above pizzas of normas looks more like a typical greek pizza (but they would typically have no oil), and some bar pizzas are almost half of that thickness.   

[norma427]

I don’t know if anyone has ever tried a Greek pizza with the Ischia starter being the leavening system, but I did try a Greek pizza yesterday with the Ischia starter.  I posted on my results at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15787.msg156498.html#msg156498
I will repost the pictures of the Greek pizza made with the Ischia starter, if anyone is interested. I think this was my best Greek pizza I attempted so far. There were a few dark spreckles on top of the dough ball.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[scott r]

norma, at one time I was baking up lots of greek style pizzas with the ishca starter.    It was always my best as well!    I think wild yeast just makes everything better

[norma427]

norma, at one time I was baking up lots of greek style pizzas with the ishca starter.    It was always my best as well!    I think wild yeast just makes everything better

Scott,

I didn’t know at one time you were baking up lots of greek style pizzas with the Ischia starter.  Do you remember any of the formulas you tried?  I agree with you that natural starters do make some really great pies, but never thought about Greek pies before I had this leftover dough. 

Norma

[scott r]

for me, making a good greek pizza isnt really about a special recipe.  Some of the best places use eggs, some milk, some use lots of oil, and some dont use any of these things.   What makes this style of pizza special is how the dough is allowed to rise a bit before baking, the oil in the pan, and what happens to the cheese when it touches the pan during baking.  I have tried all the whacky stuff (milk and eggs, etc) but I usually end up gravitating to a simple recipe thats slightly on the higher side as far as hydration goes.   I don't use a lot of oil in the dough because I use it in the pan.    A good starting point for a recipe would be something like 63% hydration, 2% sugar or 3% honey, 2.2% salt, and 15% wild yeast.  Typically I use tiny amounts of wild yeast, but for this style its nice to let the dough move a little faster during that last subtle rise in the pan.   I might change these numbers a little depending on the flour.   Above all else, the most important factor is always your dough proofing and mixing technique, so these are by no means "magic numbers".   Good luck!    

[norma427]

for me the greek pizza thing isnt really about a special recipe (some of the best places use egg, some milk, lots of oil, and some great spots dont use any of these things).   What makes this style of pizza special is how the dough is allowed to rise a bit before baking, the oil in the pan, along with what happens to the cheese as it touches the pan during baking.  I have used many variations including trying all the whacky stuff (milk and eggs).  I usually end up gravitating to a simple recipe thats slightly on the higher side as far as hydration goes, and I don't use a lot of oil in the dough because I use it in the pan.    A good starting point for a recipe would be something like 63% hydration, 2% sugar or 3% honey, 2.2% salt, and 15% wild yeast.  Typically I use tiny amounts of wild yeast, but for this style its nice to let the dough move a little faster during that last subtle rise in the pan.   I might change these numbers depending on what flour I was using.   Above all else the most important factor is always your dough proofing and mixing technique, so these are by no means "magic numbers".   Good luck!    

Scott,

Thanks for giving me a starting point to try Greek pizzas with natural starters.  I appreciate your help.  I will think over what I might try in the next few weeks.  At least I know now that natural starters doughs for a Greek pizza can be frozen with good results.  Thanks for all the experimenting you have done.   

Norma

[norma427]

If anyone is interested, this is how my Greek style pizzas are working out at market.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg158841.html#msg158841

Norma

[CDNpielover]

I made a pie using Pete's lehmann/greek formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg27482.html#msg27482.  My pies get better and better every time, and although this pie didn't turn out like I hoped it would, it was still one of the best tasting and best eating pies I've ever had.

I think the main issue I had was that I don't have a proper cutter pan.  What I have instead is a Baker's Secret pan of some sort.  It has two layers of metal with an air space in between, and the bottom of it is perforated.  It doesn't really have "walls," and thus has more of a lip than rim (if that makes any sense).  I don't know if this is different than what everyone else calls a cutter pan.    Here is a photo of the pan: http://i-store.walmart.ca/images/WMTCNPE/216/570/216570_Enlarged_1.jpeg.  

The pan has a 14" bottom and 15" rim, so I calculated the appropriate masses based on the percentages Peter gave above.  These are the values I ended up using:

Flour   10.07 oz
Water   6.34 oz
Sugar   0.2 oz
Oil   0.1 oz
Salt   0.18 oz
IDY   0.04 oz

Now because the pan is perforated, I wasn't able to press out the dough as others seem to be doing.  I was afraid it would push into the perforations if I did that.  My compromise was to hand stretch it, much like I would with a NY-style dough except that I didn't make form a distinct rim first.  (This still seemed to result in having much more dough around the edge of the pie than in the middle.)  I let the dough rise on the pan for 2 hours before saucing with a great combination of 2 sauces I had in the freezer with a touch of cinnamon added in.  I then topped it with WAY TOO MANY toppings (I do this every time, and it results in soggy or undercooked crust in the middle but I can't seem to stop doing it LOL.), and mozz, white cheddar, and provalone in the proportions that Pete gives above.  I cooked it on a stone at 500 for 11 minutes.

The pie turned out excellent.  The cheese combination was outstanding, and I will be using these proportions many times in the future.  The pizza ate very well, except that after it sat for about 10 minutes, the crust towards the center became very soggy and couldn't support the massive amount of toppings that I threw on there.  I think it might be a combination of too much moisture from the toppings, maybe combined with a bit of under cooking due to the amount of toppings.     Not to mention that my crust was much thinner in the center, and wasn't the thicker bready crust many people are showing above.

Although this pie was great, it really wasn't what I was hoping for...  In Calgary, most mom n' pop shops have "greek pizza," which is made in a pan and has a somewhat fried crust.  Toppings are applied liberally, and a nice thick layer of cheese.  I don't know if this is the same kind of "greek pie" that you are all talking about in this thread (see comments by Pete here regarding pizza from one shop in Calgary http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg118013.html#msg118013).    However, the pie I made tonight reminded me much more of a NY-style pie.  (It was actually better than my NY attempts since I usually put too much dough in the rim so that the dough under the rest of the pie is too thin.)  I'm not sure if this is due to the improper pan that i'm using.

I also sauced and cheesed to the edge, but since I have more of a lip than a rim, it didn't really get that burned cheese effect many of you have.