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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2006, 09:08:21 PM »
Recently, after having read this thread on Greek (bar) pizzas, I decided to try to make one. As a kid growing up in Massachusetts, Greek pizzas were what I knew best—from places that all seemed to be called “[fill in the blank] House of Pizza”. It wasn’t until I moved about the country that I discovered other types of pizza to add to my pizza portfolio. Reading about the Greek pizza at this thread prompted me to renew my acquaintance with that style of pizza after a period of time that seemed about a lifetime.

So, following all the hints and tips that our other members offered on this style of pizza, and particularly the helpful tips and comments from scott r, I decided to modify the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation to fit the profile of the Greek style dough. To do this, I increased the thickness factor to 0.11 (to yield a slightly thicker crust), increased the yeast (IDY) by about 50% (to provide a more pronounced rise), and added some sugar (which seemed to be a common ingredient for the Greek style dough). In a sense, the dough had attributes of both the NY and American styles.

My original plan was to try to find a 10-inch pan to bake the pizza--in the name of authenticity. However, I decided instead to use a 14-inch cutter pan (with a 13 1/2-inch diameter bottom) that I already had on hand, having purchased it from pizzatools.com. It seemed to have all the desirable attributes. It is dark, made of anodized aluminum, and the pizzatools website says that the pan will retain oil for a buttery flavor, produce a chewier crust, and is suitable for medium and thick crusts. I have seen the Greek style pizza described as being thin, but my recollection is that it was more like medium. So, the cutter pan seemed well suited to the task.

The formulation I ended up with as a result of the modifications I made to the basic Lehmann formulation was as follows:

100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 9.37 oz. (265.46 g.), 2 1/4 c.
63%, Water*, 5.90 oz. (167.24 g.), a bit less than 3/4 c.
2%, Sugar, 0.19 oz. (5.31 g.), 1 1/3 t.
1%, Oil (extra virgin olive oil), 0.09 oz. (2.65 g.), a bit over 1/2 t.
1.75%, Salt, 0.16 oz. (4.65 g.), a bit less than 7/8 t.
0.40%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.04 oz. (1.06 g.), a bit over 1/3 t.
*Temp. adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of 75 degrees F
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.11
Finished dough weight = 15.75 oz. (446.38 g.)
Pizza size = 13 1/2 inches (the diameter of the cutter pan bottom)
Note: all measurements U.S./metric standard

The dough was prepared using the basic procedures outlined at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563. The only change was the addition of the sugar, which I dissolved in the water contemporaneously with the salt. The finished dough was lightly oiled and put into a metal lidded container and then into the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for almost 48 hours. Upon removing the dough from the refrigerator, I dusted it with a bit of bench flour, covered it loosely with a sheet of plastic wrap, and allowed the dough to rest for one hour. I then shaped and stretched it out to 13 1/2 inches (the diameter of the bottom of the cutter pan) and fitted it into the cutter pan, which I had coated, with about one tablespoon of olive oil. I pushed the dough out to the edge of the pan, without trying to form a rim. I couldn’t recall whether the pizza makers of my youth covered the pans, or whether they were stacked, so I covered the panned dough with a sheet of plastic wrap to prevent a skin from forming. I then allowed the dough to proof for an additional 2 hours. All of the foregoing steps were handled with ease.

The sauce I elected to use was made from 6-in-1 tomatoes, which I heated gently in a pan to reduce some of the liquids (but not to the paste stage), and to which I added granulated garlic, some sugar, freshly ground black pepper, red pepper flakes, and a fairly copious amount of dried imported Sicilian wild oregano. For the cheese blend, I used shredded part-skim low-moisture mozzarella cheese (Frigo/Saputo), white cheddar cheese, and imported Provolone cheese, in a ratio of 50/30/20. The hardest part was finding white cheddar cheese. It took me 4 stores to find it, ending up with a white cheddar cheese from Vermont costing about double the price of the mozzarella cheese on a per-pound basis.

After the dough had proofed and just about doubled in volume, I sauced and cheesed the dough, being sure to push the sauce and cheeses out to the edge in the hopes of getting a brown/burned and crispy texture at the edge. I then added pepperoni slices (Hormel). The pizza was baked in the pan on a pizza stone that had been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at around 500 degrees F. The pizza baked for about a total of 10-11 minutes. Part way through the bake, as the cheeses started to brown up, I checked the bottom of the crust to see if it was browning properly. It was, and I let the pizza continue baking until the top of the pizza looked as I had remembered it in my youth.

The photos below show the finished product (in the pan, out of the pan, and a slice). The pizza was everything I had hoped for. Not only did it bring back fond memories, it was soft and chewy, with a nice porous crumb and very good crust flavor and color, both top and bottom. And the cheese blend was exceptional, both in texture and flavor. The pizza was one of the best that I have had in a while, and I have had some really good ones. I know I will make this pizza again. I might seek out a 10-inch pan and a cheaper white cheddar cheese, but I didn’t see anything from the results I achieved to suggest that I should make any other changes. Now I can see why Kim, scott’s wife, yearns for the Greek/bar type pizza that she so enjoyed on the Massachusetts South Shore.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 10:19:51 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline raji

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2006, 12:56:56 AM »
Recently, after having read this thread on Greek (bar) pizzas, I decided to try to make one. As a kid growing up in Massachusetts, Greek pizzas were what I knew best—from places that all seemed to be called “[fill in the blank] House of Pizza”. It wasn’t until I moved about the country that I discovered other types of pizza to add to my pizza portfolio. Reading about the Greek pizza at this thread prompted me to renew my acquaintance with that style of pizza after a period of time that seemed about a lifetime.

So, following all the hints and tips that our other members offered on this style of pizza, and particularly the helpful tips and comments from scott r, I decided to modify the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation to fit the profile of the Greek style dough. To do this, I increased the thickness factor to 0.11 (to yield a slightly thicker crust), increased the yeast (IDY) by about 50% (to provide a more pronounced rise), and added some sugar (which seemed to be a common ingredient for the Greek style dough). In a sense, the dough had attributes of both the NY and American styles.

My original plan was to try to find a 10-inch pan to bake the pizza--in the name of authenticity. However, I decided instead to use a 14-inch cutter pan (with a 13 1/2-inch diameter bottom) that I already had on hand, having purchased it from pizzatools.com. It seemed to have all the desirable attributes. It is dark, made of anodized aluminum, and the pizzatools website says that the pan will retain oil for a buttery flavor, produce a chewier crust, and is suitable for medium and thick crusts. I have seen the Greek style pizza described as being thin, but my recollection is that it was more like medium. So, the cutter pan seemed well suited to the task.

The formulation I ended up with as a result of the modifications I made to the basic Lehmann formulation was as follows:

100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 9.37 oz. (265.46 g.), 2 1/4 c.
63%, Water*, 5.90 oz. (167.24 g.), a bit less than 3/4 c.
2%, Sugar, 0.19 oz. (5.31 g.), 1 1/3 t.
1%, Oil (extra virgin olive oil), 0.09 oz. (2.65 g.), a bit over 1/2 t.
1.75%, Salt, 0.16 oz. (4.65 g.), a bit less than 7/8 t.
0.40%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.04 oz. (1.06 g.), a bit over 1/3 t.
*Temp. adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of 75 degrees F
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.11
Finished dough weight = 15.75 oz. (446.38 g.)
Pizza size = 13 1/2 inches (the diameter of the cutter pan bottom)
Note: all measurements U.S./metric standard

The dough was prepared using the basic procedures outlined at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563. The only change was the addition of the sugar, which I dissolved in the water contemporaneously with the salt. The finished dough was lightly oiled and put into a metal lidded container and then into the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for almost 48 hours. Upon removing the dough from the refrigerator, I dusted it with a bit of bench flour, covered it loosely with a sheet of plastic wrap, and allowed the dough to rest for one hour. I then shaped and stretched it out to 13 1/2 inches (the diameter of the bottom of the cutter pan) and fitted it into the cutter pan, which I had coated, with about one tablespoon of olive oil. I pushed the dough out to the edge of the pan, without trying to form a rim. I couldn’t recall whether the pizza makers of my youth covered the pans, or whether they were stacked, so I covered the panned dough with a sheet of plastic wrap to prevent a skin from forming. I then allowed the dough to proof for an additional 2 hours. All of the foregoing steps were handled with ease.

The sauce I elected to use was made from 6-in-1 tomatoes, which I heated gently in a pan to reduce some of the liquids (but not to the paste stage), and to which I added granulated garlic, some sugar, freshly ground black pepper, red pepper flakes, and a fairly copious amount of dried imported Sicilian wild oregano. For the cheese blend, I used shredded part-skim low-moisture mozzarella cheese (Frigo/Saputo), white cheddar cheese, and imported Provolone cheese, in a ratio of 50/30/20. The hardest part was finding white cheddar cheese. It took me 4 stores to find it, ending up with a white cheddar cheese from Vermont costing about double the price of the mozzarella cheese on a per-pound basis.

After the dough had proofed and just about doubled in volume, I sauced and cheesed the dough, being sure to push the sauce and cheeses out to the edge in the hopes of getting a brown/burned and crispy texture at the edge. I then added pepperoni slices (Hormel). The pizza was baked in the pan on a pizza stone that had been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at around 500 degrees F. The pizza baked for about a total of 10-11 minutes. Part way through the bake, as the cheeses started to brown up, I checked the bottom of the crust to see if it was browning properly. It was, and I let the pizza continue baking until the top of the pizza looked as I had remembered it in my youth.

The photos below show the finished product (in the pan, out of the pan, and a slice). The pizza was everything I had hoped for. Not only did it bring back fond memories, it was soft and chewy, with a nice porous crumb and very good crust flavor and color, both top and bottom. And the cheese blend was exceptional, both in texture and flavor. The pizza was one of the best that I have had in a while, and I have had some really good ones. I know I will make this pizza again. I might seek out a 10-inch pan and a cheaper white cheddar cheese, but I didn’t see anything from the results I achieved to suggest that I should make any other changes. Now I can see why Kim, scott’s wife, yearns for the Greek/bar type pizza that she so enjoyed on the Massachusetts South Shore.

Peter


Peter,

That's a fine looking pizza.  Your post brings back some fond memories.  I grew up in Massachusetts as well.  I remember each town having a {town name} 'House of Pizza'.  I was pretty bummed when I moved away and wasn't able to find pizza like that.  I was able to find pizza I liked... just not like that.  When I started making pizzas, I scoured the web to find information on Greek Pizza, but was only able to find recipes for pizzas with Feta cheese. 

I went back to Mass.  over the holidays.  The first place I went to eat was a Greek Pizza joint in Natick ;D.  Anyways, I digress. 

I too remember the crust not being thin or thick.  Medium sounds about right.  I remember Greek Pizza crust being a tad bit oily/buttery (in a good way).  You had mentioned that the pan you used was meant to retain some of the oil.  How did the crust turn out with respect to retaining some of the oil?



Offline scott r

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2006, 03:25:37 AM »
THANK YOU PETER!!!!!!  I have many friends that are going to want this link.

As someone who is around this style of pizza every day I can assure you that you absolutely nailed this on the first attempt.  Knowing what you did and what ingredients you used I can guarantee you that your pizza was actually better than any of the Greek style or bar style pizzas available here.  Very very few if any places are using tomatoes as good as 6in1's.  Even your cheeses are probably better than the bulk of what is used here.  Typical flour used here is the cheapest the pizzerias can find.  I often wonder why it is so different here in Boston than NYC where you see cans and bags of only the best ingredients on the street being thrown away at the end of the night. Grande cheese, escalon and stanislaus everywhere. I love to make this style because it makes me look like a magician.  It can be easily improved upon when compared to what the local joints put out.  You are not at a disadvantage having a home oven like you are with almost every other style of pizza.  The pan on the pizza stone in a home oven works just as well as a pan on a blodgett deck. I have noticed that the pizzerias that use conveyor ovens for this style (very few) are not that great.  Combine the lack of limitations imposed by our ovens with good ingredients and this is a very rewarding project indeed.


A few notes.

Greek pizza (found all over Massachusetts and parts of New England), and Bar pizza (found only in the southern suburbs of Boston) are very similar, but do have their differences.  I get a lot of personal messages about the "bar" style so I want to clear some things up. The pizza you made, Peter, has attributes of both.  Bar pizzas are only found in one size 10-12 inches.   That is it.  No larges.  Greek can be found in all sizes.  Proportions are key here, and I think the bar style has this in it's favor.   Another big difference is that bar (also called pub pizza) typically has the bottom of the pan oiled, while most Greek pizza does not.  Finally bar pizza has the cheese taken right to the edge of the pan which achieves a wonderful crispy smoky flavor where the cheese hits the pan.  Geek pizza has a crust area around the edge that is exposed where there are no toppings, similar to NY style.  Essentially Peter, you made a bar pizza in a larger size.  Something I have never seen before, but sure looks amazing.

Your sugar amount was probably perfect, you don't want to really be able to taste it in there if you want to have dough like the best places.  The places using more sugar always have problems with how the pie cooks, and the flavor is wrong.   Peter, I know you are very sensitive to the flavor of sugar in the dough.  Could you taste it?  If so you could try less next time.  Also, your idea to use extra yeast was genius.  I have often made bar pizzas with leftover dough from my NY or even Neapolitan batches and sometimes there is just not enough leavening to get the texture right.

Anybody making this recipe should know that not placing the pan on a pre heated stone will usually turn out a pie that is cooked too much on top and is not golden brown on the bottom, so don't skip that step.  I have had success with lower cooking temps and putting the pan on the bottom shelf, but 500 or 550 with the stone and the pan gets the best flavor for the pie.

To be really authentic you need a sauce with no chunks that is fairly thin.  This is an area where I think you improved on things Peter, but I figured I would mention it.  For a more authentic version I would recommend using a blender on the tomatoes, or even thinning out something like Bonta (this is what the best places here do, but with cheaper brands than Escalon).

I have seen many pizzerias using bread flour, and it works great for this type of pizza.  This is another reason why this style is so home friendly.  No need to source out high gluten flour.  The dough used for this pizza is similar to Sicilian dough because of the pan rise, so it makes sense to follow with a similar flour. As you know many Sicilian recipes call for bread or even all purpose flour.  KASL works really great as well, but can sometimes be a little chewy when the pizza cools.  Peter, I would love to try your dough formulation for an Americanized Sicilian style pizza like what you find on the street in NYC.  I'll bet it would be a perfect match.  It's essentially the same dough, but much thicker, a twice bake with sauce first, no oil on the bottom, and mozzarella cheese.  You might want to do up one of these tutorials and post it over on a Sicilian thread some day.  You could even get the chunkier tomatoes going for that one :)

Here in New England white cheddar is everywhere.  I usually find 10 or more brands and styles in my grocery store.  I tend to use your blending ratio when I have sharp cheddar, but increase the amount of cheddar when I am using mild white cheddar.  If you live in an area with options  I have found that using a higher amount of mild cheddar can work better.  I have found that Wisconsin mild white cheddar usually seems to work the better than similar cheese from Vermont.  It is also very acceptable to mix 50/50 white mild cheddar and mozzarella, or 70/30 mozzarella/sharp white cheddar.  If you are going to use provolone it must be mild or "sandwich" grade.  If it is aged it will be too sharp and can ruin the pizza.

Finally, I don't do this with any other style, but for some reason a splash or two of some Franks original hot sauce (Durkee), goes really well with this pizza.  It's something about the cheddar and the crust that makes this match perfect.  I see a lot of pizzerias with hot sauce out on the counter for this purpose and of course for the fried seafood that the "house of pizza's" tend to offer.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2006, 09:20:33 AM »
raji,

Like you, I scoured the internet looking for information on "Greek" style pizzas, and came up empty but for one dough recipe that looked fairly ordinary. I concluded that the "Greek" style is an embodiment of the entire experience of crust, sauce, cheese (especially the cheddar), and the pan bake. In that respect, it perhaps falls in the same category as the St. Louis style, Detroit style, etc.

I took the pizzatool's language about retaining oil to mean that the oil won't bead up in the pan, as it can do with other coatings. The pan I used has the special PSTK coating. When I oiled the pan, the oil did not bead up. It stayed pretty much where I put it. After the pie was done and removed from the pan, I saw that some oil remained. So it didn't all get sucked up by the crust. The PSTK coating is intended to make oiling the pan unnecessary, so it's possible that I could have baked the pie without first oiling the pan. But I liked the idea of the oil anyway, and went with it. The color of the bottom of the crust was perfect, just as I had remembered it from years ago. In retrospect, I might have baked the pie a minute or so longer to get even more of that crispy character at the edges where the cheese burns a bit.

I think it is also possible to use only 1 day of cold fermentation instead of the 2 days I used. And it is quite possible that I could have panned the dough sooner before letting it proof. After two days of fermentation, the dough was quite extensible and most likely could have been spread out to fit the pan sooner. But the crust flavor was very good.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2006, 10:21:59 AM »
scott,

Thank you for clarifying matters, especially the difference between the Greek style pizza and bar pizza. In my youth I was a good boy and didn't go to bars, which accounts for my lack of knowledge about bar pizzas. But I suspect that for you, as a musician in the recording industry, bars are an occupational hazard. But from what I can see, that hasn't dulled your powers of observation.

I decided to use and modify the Lehmann dough formulation based on your comment that it would work. The changes I made to the formulation were to match the desired end results as you and others described them. I am happy the changes worked out. Otherwise, I would have had to go back to the drawing board. BTW, with the baker's percents I posted, it is now possible to calculate the ingredients necessary to make any size pizza. For me, the formulation is a keeper and I am going to try hard to resist the temptation to tinker with it.

To answer your question about the sugar, I could not detect it. For most people, sugar is detectable in the finished crust when it gets to about 4% of the weight of flour. For a long-fermented dough, I won't usually taste the sugar in the finished crust below the 4% level. However, I am much more likely to taste it in a short-fermented dough (e.g., a 2-3 hour dough), even below 4%. I think there is something that happens in the dough in those two cases that creates that distinction. Apparently, the added sugar in the long-fermented dough gets used up by the yeast and is not there to contribute to sweetness in the crust. I had more yeast than normal, so it must have been gobbling up the sugar.

As for the selection of ingredients, I used what I had on hand plus whatever else I needed from the supermarket to make the pizza, in my case, the white cheddar cheese. I wondered whether I should have pureed the sauce since it still had a bit of rough texture to it. I figured that you would comment on that aspect once you saw my post. Sometime, I may try to make a Greek/bar type pizza using lesser ingredients, just to be able to draw a comparison with what I made. But I can tell you that the high-quality ingredients I did use made for a great tasting pizza. I loved the cheddar flavor and I did like the idea of running the dough, sauce and cheeses to the outer edge, as you indicate is common for bar pizzas. I think I may continue that practice. I would also like to do that sometime with a 9" or 10" pan, preferably in a grungy pan like the pizza operators use.

scott, can you tell me whether the pizza operators cover the pans during proofing, or are they stacked in nestable fashion? My memory is that they were stacked (but it could have been the empty pans).

I also recall reading somewhere on the internet that some pizza operators added extra oil to the finished Greek pies. In fact, the comment was that some operators actually put "extra oil" on their pizza menus and charged extra for it. Have you ever seen anything like that? I would guess that that might have been a practice many years ago.

Peter

« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 11:06:39 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott r

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2006, 12:05:48 PM »
Peter,

I have never seen a Boston area Greek or bar style pizzeria put any olive oil on top of the pizza.  That is a practice I see reserved solely for Italian subs.  Most of these places are using an oily cheese, and doing so could render the pies a grease bomb.  One contributing factor could be the cheddar, which I think might typically release more oil than mozzarella?  Still, I can't imagine that some olive oil could ever hurt the flavor.   ;D

Your question about the oil on top makes me wonder if this style of Greek pizza is common any where else in the US.  I have a feeling that it is totally regional, and the white cheddar is because of our close proximity to Vermont.  I am assuming that other city's with massive Greek populations like Detroit probably have nothing like this for pizza.  It is very possible that on their regional style of Greek pizza there is olive oil used on top.  Also, I am sure that this pizza bears no resemblance whatsoever to what you would actually find in Grease.   I would love to hear from somebody about what that it like.

I always see pans stacked and not covered, but I am sure that is just because it is easier for them.  I would assume you end up with the same result.

If you aren't tasting the sugar you nailed the recipe for sure.

Kim is very excited to try the Pete-zza bar pizza dough formulation made with extra yeast and sugar.  I know it is going to turn out even better than what I have been using.  She is going to be my test subject on this one, and I will report back.  Again, thank you so much for taking the time to do this.

Offline enchant

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2006, 12:13:13 PM »
I also live south of Boston, and my experience is that bars stack the pans like brickwork (is that "nested"?).

I bought a 12" pizza pan, but it's the bright shiny silver kind.  I looked around, but couldn't find that dark brownish metal pan that I see in all the bars.  By the sound of the crash when they throw empty ones into the "used" pile, they seem to be lighter and thinner than what I bought.  I wonder if that would make a difference in the final product.
--pat--

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2006, 12:20:14 PM »
scott,

I should thank you for providing the inspiration to try the pizza. I wouldn't have known enough to do it without your helpful comments.

I had a couple of slices today that I reheated in my toaster oven. They were great, and I didn't detect any negative effects from having used the KASL. I think I am going to try the three-cheese combination on my Lehmann pizzas too.

BTW, when I covered the panned dough while proofing, I found that the plastic wrap, which I loosely draped over the pan, was a bit droopy and stuck in places to the dough. Since the dough hadn't risen above the level of the pan, I replaced the plastic wrap with a rigid cardboard round that I placed on top of the pan. That solved the problem.

Please pass on any tips you garner when you try the formulation I posted.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2006, 12:35:45 PM »
Peter,  That cheese blend is so popular around here that most of the wholesalers carry pre mixed bags of shredded 50/50 mozzarella/cheddar and even the mozzarella/cheddar/provolone.  I do think liking it could be partially because of the fact that you grew up here. I have heard many people from other parts of the country comment on how bad our pizza is here in Boston.   I know that when I moved here I couldn't stand the pizzas, and thankfully that is what pushed me into home pizza making.  Once I realized that they were blending in cheddar I knew that it was a huge part of why I was unhappy with the flavors.  I grew up with mozzarella, or mozzarella/provolone.  Now that I have lived here for almost as much time as I lived in Pittsburgh I have grown accustomed to the flavor of the cheddar and look at it as another tool/variation for coming up with a unique product.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2006, 12:43:01 PM »
Pat,

What I mean by "nesting" is placing the pans directly on top of each other with the top pan being covered with a lid. The pans themselves are usually designed to allow the nesting.

My recollection is that scott may have used bright pans on occasion. The disadvantage of bright, shiny pans is that they reflect oven heat, so it may become necessary to play around with the rack/stone positioning, bake temperature, and bake time to compensate. Tom Lehmann always recommends dark pans when given a choice. The positive for the shiny pans (usually aluminum) is that they are quite a bit less expensive than the dark, anodized ones. Since very good pans, like those from pizzatools.com, will last a long time with proper care, I have concluded that the added cost of getting the dark, anodized, PSTK pans is money well spent. Amortized over years, the cost differential becomes almost de minimus.

The thickness of the metal of the pans will also affect the bake because of conductivity and heat build-up/retention factors. If the metal is too thin, then you may want to lower the bake temperature or move the pan higher in the oven. It's not much different in that respect from cheap, thin-metal cooking utensils used on a stovetop. If the heat is too high, the food can easily burn or become scorched. I have thrown away all such pans because of too many such mishaps.

Peter


Offline deb415611

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2006, 08:35:35 AM »
Peter,

Could you scale down your recipe so that I could make 2 - 9 inch pizzas.

I grew up in southwestern NH and we had greek pizza there also.  We may have been the one place without a "....  House of Pizza" (a place went in while I was in college and it might be a house of pizza).   The name of the place we always went to was Athens Pizza. 

Scott's posts talk about a thin sauce but I remember a sauce that was thicker.   I would have taken the 6-1s and reduced them a little like you did to get to the consistency that I remember.   I guess I'm going to have to go visit my parents and stop for a pizza on the way.

Thanks,
Deb


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2006, 09:43:53 AM »
Deb,

As you requested:

Greek/Pan Modified-Lehmann Dough Recipe for Two 9-inch Pizzas for Deb
100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 8.33 oz. (235.97 g.), 2 c. (stir, scoop and level technique)
63%, Water*, 5.24 oz. (148.66 g.), between 5/8 and 3/4 c. (at eye level)
2%, Sugar, 0..17 oz. (4.72 g.), a bit less than 1 1/4 t.
1%, Oil (extra virgin olive oil), 0.08 oz. (2.36 g.), 1/2 t.
1.75%, Salt, 0.15 oz. (4.13 g.), 3/4 t.
0.40%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.03 oz. (0.94 g.), a bit less than 1/3 t.
*Temp. adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of 75 degrees F
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.11
Finished dough weight = 14.00 oz. (396.78 g.)--for 2 pizzas
Pizza size = 9 inches
Note: all measurements U.S./metric standard

When I made the sauce, I used a little over 1/2 cup of the sauce for the size of pizza I made. I made a lot more of the sauce and froze what I didn't use in disposable/reusable 1/2-cup plastic Glad containers for future use. Of course, for your pizzas, you will have to adjust the amount of sauce based on personal preference.

Peter

Offline deb415611

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2006, 11:05:30 AM »
Thank you so much Peter! 

I need to build myself a spreadsheet for the dough conversions and to keep track of my results.


Thanks again. 

Deb

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2006, 02:59:21 PM »
Once you have the thickness factor (TF), and the baker's percents (plus some conversion data as discussed below), it is actually quite easy to calculate the amounts of ingredients needed to make any size pizza, up or down. The thickness factor (0.11 in my case) and baker's percents are constants and don't change with pizza size. All that one needs is a simple calculator. If it has the +M and MRC features, which even the cheapest ones seem to have, the math calculations are even easier.

To show the simplicity of the math, let's assume that one wanted to use the formulation I posted for the Greek/bar pizza to make a 10" pie, which apparently is fairly standard for a bar pizza. This is how the calculations would be done:

Step 1: Using the radius R of the desired pizza size (10"/2 = 5") and the thickness factor TF (0.11), calculate the required dough weight DW by using this expression: DW = 3.14 x R x R x TF, or 3.14 x 5 x 5 x 0.11 = 8.635 ounces (or 8.64 oz. when rounded).

Step 2: Add up all the baker's percents and divide by 100. In the dough formulation I posted, the baker's percents add up to 168.150% (100% + 63% + 2% + 1% + 1.75% + 0.40% = 168.150%). Dividing that number by 100 gives us 1.6815.

Step 3: Calculate the amount of flour to be used by dividing the value of DW calculated above in Step 1 (8.635), by 1.6815. That gives us a value of 5.1352958. Since all baker's percents for everything but the flour are recited as a percent of the flour (which is always stated as 100%), this value (5.1352958) will be used to calculate the weights of all the remaining ingredients (in our case, the water, sugar, oil, salt and IDY). This number can be rounded to say, 5.14, but when I use a calculator or spreadsheet, I use the full number and round off all the numbers later. For our purposes here, and to keep from scaring people off, I will use the rounded off numbers.

Step 4: To calculate the amounts of the remaining ingredients (i.e, other than the flour), multiply the weight of flour (5.14 oz.), by the respective percentages for those ingredients. Doing this yields the following:

63% x 5.14 oz. = 3.24 oz. water
2% x 5.14 oz. = 0.10 oz. sugar
1% x 5.14 oz. = 0. 05 oz. oil
1.75% x 5.14 oz. = 0.09 oz. salt
0.4 % x 5.14 oz. = 0.02 oz. IDY

Step 5: To convert the weights of sugar, oil, salt and IDY to volume measurements, one has to use certain standard conversion data for these ingredients. I don't use conversion data for flour and water since I use a digital scale. When I do convert these to volume measurements for posting purposes for those may not have scales, I use the stir, spoon and level technique for flour, and eyeball the level for water in the measuring cup. So, to convert the weighs of sugar, oil, salt, and IDY, the following calculations are performed using per/teaspoon weights for sugar, oil, salt and IDY:

Sugar: 0.10 oz./0.14 oz./t. = 0.71 t., or a bit under 3/4 t. sugar
Oil: 0.05 oz./0.17 oz./t. = 0.29 t., or between 1/4 and 1/3 t. oil
Salt: 0.09 oz./0.20 oz./t.= 0.45 t., or a bit less than 1/2 t.
IDY: 0.02/0.11 oz./t. = 0.18 t., or about 1/5 t.

As a crosscheck of my numbers when I am using a calculator rather than my spreadsheet, I add up all the weights to be sure that they add up properly. Doing that here yields a total dough weight of 8.64 oz., which squares with the number I calculated in Step 1. And the final numbers look like this:

Greek/Pan Modified-Lehmann Dough Recipe for a 10-inch Pizza
100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 5.14 oz.
63%, Water*, 3.24 oz.
2%, Sugar, 0.10 oz., a bit less than 3/4 t.
1%, Oil (extra virgin olive oil), 0.05 oz., between 1/3 and 1/4 t.
1.75%, Salt, 0.09 oz., a bit less than 1/2 t.
0.40%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.02 oz., a bit less than 1/5 t.
*Temp. adjusted to achieve a finished dough temperature of 75 degrees F
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.11
Finished dough weight = 8.64 oz.
Pizza size = 10 inches

For those who work in the metric system of measurements, the easiest way is to convert the weight of flour to grams, by multiplying 5.1352958 by 28.35 and then work the rest of the numbers in grams using the baker's percents as discussed above. The baker's percents remain the same. They don't change because of the switch from ounces to grams.

Class dismissed ;D.

Peter







Offline enchant

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2006, 04:42:09 PM »
Class dismissed
Well THAT is just too cool for school!

For those of you without a handheld calculator (or who are just lazy like me), if you're using a recent version of MS Windows, there's a calculator available to you (Start/programs/accessories/calculator).  And here's a tip for the uber-lazy among you (my people).  Highlight the following string and copy it (CTL-C):

@ * 3.14 * 0.11 / 1.6815 =

Put your calculator into "Scientific" mode (View/Scientific). Now hit the CLEAR button on the calculator, type in the radius of your pizza and hit CTL-V to paste the formula in.  Wa-la! Instant 100% flour weight.

Thanks Peter.  That was some great info!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 04:52:32 PM by enchant »
--pat--

Offline itsinthesauce

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2006, 05:51:21 PM »
That's pretty cool, as long as you don't think about it.

Offline deb415611

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2006, 08:10:41 PM »
Peter thanks for the formula.  You are right - it's definitely a keeper. 

For the crust I used Peter's method but only left it in the refrigerator for about 20 hours.  I also pushed the dough out to the edge without forming a rim but after it rose I didn't sauce all the way out the edge.   I'm wondering if I should have formed a rim.  I remember a more pronounced rim to the crust than I got maybe  they sauced the pizza before the final rise.   I used two 9 inch straight sided shiny cake pans.  These worked fine but I did have to bake them about 13 minutes and moved them up a shelf after about 10 minutes of baking.

My sauce was 6-in1 tomatoes with granulated garlic, crushed red pepper, fresh ground pepper and oregano.  I was feeling lazy and did not reduce it like I intended to since the sauce I remember was a little thicker, darker and sweeter than the sauce I made.  I think that I will try to replicate it next time.

I used 2/3 Polly-O low moisture-part skim and 1/3 Cabot Sharp Cheddar.   I really liked this combination as did my family.  I have always known that there was something different with the cheese but hadn't really thought about it.  This nailed it -  though I think that the pizza I had growing up probably had a larger percentage of cheddar than the 1/3 that I used.   

My husband & son really liked this pizza.  I had intended to go back to the NY-Lehman that I had been making as my main style but after trying this but I don't know if they will let me. 


Offline scott r

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2006, 08:28:57 PM »
Deb, I think your rim looks very authentic for Greek pizza.  My only critique is that it looks like the dough may have risen a little too long in the pan.  Other than that   I would not change a thing.  NICE WORK!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2006, 08:32:03 PM »
Deb,

Nice job. I'm glad to see that the dough formulation worked out well for you.

My recollection is that scott said that there is a raised rim for the Greek style pizza, but not for the bar or pub pizza. Mine apparently was more like a bar pizza but bigger. In my case, I didn't try to form a rim although I could have in my cutter pan because the sides of the pan are sloped, not straight up and down. I think I actually prefer running the cheeses and sauce out to the sides of the pan so that the cheeses crisp up and give you that flavorful crunch.

It is quite possible that pizza operators sauce some of their skins in the pans in advance, in preparation for the rush of orders. Normally that isn't a good idea, especially if the pre-saucing is done too far in advance, because the sauce can migrate into the dough and form a gum line. On the other hand, if the sauce is thick, that likelihood is reduced. A thick sauce is also used for take-n-bake pizzas because they might sit around for a while before being baked. So, there may be some logic to pre-saucing the skins.

As far as styles are concerned, I like the idea of having several at my disposal. You might try deep-dish some time for another style to put into your pizza portfolio. Or Randy's American style, or even other NY styles.

Peter

Offline deb415611

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Re: Greek pizza
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2006, 09:02:58 PM »

My recollection is that scott said that there is a raised rim for the Greek style pizza, but not for the bar or pub pizza. Mine apparently was more like a bar pizza but bigger. In my case, I didn't try to form a rim although I could have in my cutter pan because the sides of the pan are sloped, not straight up and down. I think I actually prefer running the cheeses and sauce out to the sides of the pan so that the cheeses crisp up and give you that flavorful crunch.



I tried to let a natural rim form but I think that they must actually form one either by rolling the dough or just pushing more dough to the edge.  The pans that I remember were straight up and down.   For my household it doesn't matter because my husband saw your version with the cheese out to the edge and that's what he wants next.

I am going to try some other types.  I did try DKMs Chicago version and that was really good .  I bought some Caputo from PennMac and need to do some reading and decide where to start with that.  I definately need to try some more NY styles since I have about 40 lbs of KASL in my freezer (we did have homemade bagels this morning). 

I'm off to buy some larger dark pans. 



 

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