Author Topic: Good ol' home oven  (Read 11320 times)

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Offline MazzisPieLvr

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2008, 07:47:54 PM »
November, I looked at the silicon carbide stones at Baileys Ceramic Supply from the link you provided. There is another stone there called a Nitrite Bonded silicon carbide. It is much cheaper but it does have a few different characteristics. From the site...
The nitride bonded silicon carbide shelves are slightly heavier than AdvancerŪ shelves, but much lighter than High Alumina. Note: AdvancerŪ is still the lightest and strongest composition shelf available and a much higher quality, rated for Cone 16. Nitride Bonded is rated for Cone 11 and may need rotation at some point based on extreme peak temperature, soak time, and amount of weight placed between the posts....

Do you think this will be an acceptable product for baking pizzas, or will the thermal characteristics be so sub par that it will not be a good investment?

They do mention that electric kilns do have a tendency to crack these shelves, but I imagine that the lower temperatures of a home oven would not be an issue, unless it is proximity to hot elements that is the culprit. Then it is possible that a home oven could do the same thing if the slab is put too close to a hot element.

Also note that silicon carbide is a conductor of electricity so do not let it come into contact with a live element.

Also note..."Want a great deal on shelves?
 Sometimes we have "seconds" in various kiln shelves at great prices!  Save up to 40%!
Call for details and availability."


Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2008, 10:43:00 PM »
November, I looked at the silicon carbide stones at Baileys Ceramic Supply from the link you provided. There is another stone there called a Nitrite Bonded silicon carbide. It is much cheaper but it does have a few different characteristics. From the site...
The nitride bonded silicon carbide shelves are slightly heavier than AdvancerŪ shelves, but much lighter than High Alumina. Note: AdvancerŪ is still the lightest and strongest composition shelf available and a much higher quality, rated for Cone 16. Nitride Bonded is rated for Cone 11 and may need rotation at some point based on extreme peak temperature, soak time, and amount of weight placed between the posts....

Do you think this will be an acceptable product for baking pizzas, or will the thermal characteristics be so sub par that it will not be a good investment?

The most recent link was to seattlepotterysupply.com for a nitride bonded SiC shelf, the very shelf I have.  The nitride bonded SiC shelves at Bailey's are all the wrong size for me.  24" is too wide, 18" is too deep, and 0.5" is too thin, so I would end up having to buy two 16" x 18" x 0.375" shelves which isn't any cheaper.  I would not recommend Advancer shelves over the kind I purchased.

Also note that silicon carbide is a conductor of electricity so do not let it come into contact with a live element.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7066.msg60775.html#msg60775

- red.november

EDIT: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7066.msg61313.html#msg61313
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 11:09:51 PM by November »

Offline MazzisPieLvr

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2008, 04:12:15 AM »
Quote
The most recent link was to seattlepotterysupply.com for a nitride bonded SiC shelf, the very shelf I have.  The nitride bonded SiC shelves at Bailey's are all the wrong size for me.  24" is too wide, 18" is too deep, and 0.5" is too thin, so I would end up having to buy two 16" x 18" x 0.375" shelves which isn't any cheaper.  I would not recommend Advancer shelves over the kind I purchased.

That's good information, thank you. I suppose the only way Baileys would be a good choice is if you got a 40% discount on two or three 16 x 18 0.375" seconds. For a little more money you could buy a third and either use it or store it and if the other two crack you would have another spare( with two thinner ones you could still use a cracked one on the bottom).

Obviously you have not had a problem with moisture in the SiC causing cracking, so I imagine even the thinner ones would not be a problem either(a supposition yet to be proven).

Its nice to know that the relative conductivity is in all but the most extreme conditions less than harmful.

Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2008, 10:55:00 AM »
That's good information, thank you. I suppose the only way Baileys would be a good choice is if you got a 40% discount on two or three 16 x 18 0.375" seconds. For a little more money you could buy a third and either use it or store it and if the other two crack you would have another spare( with two thinner ones you could still use a cracked one on the bottom).

A 40% discount wouldn't be enough for me.  I wouldn't want to deal with moving more fragile (relative to thicker) shelves around.  Two thinner shelves will work for the purpose of attaining a high total heat capacity.  However, the main reason for getting thicker shelves is to mitigate mechanical and thermal stresses.

Obviously you have not had a problem with moisture in the SiC causing cracking, so I imagine even the thinner ones would not be a problem either(a supposition yet to be proven).

I'm not sure why you arrive at that conclusion.  It doesn't logically follow that since a thicker shelf doesn't have problems with cracking that a thinner one wouldn't either.  Thinner shelves would be more susceptible to cracking.  I do know that with a thickness of 0.625", my shelf is going to be just fine, so I would never bother with buying a spare.  I even damp-cleaned mine prior to using it in the oven for the first time.

Its nice to know that the relative conductivity is in all but the most extreme conditions less than harmful.

You mean extreme conditions as in lightning?  It's as good as non-conductive in ceramic form.  Technically, pure SiC is only a semiconductor anyway.  The silicon nitride in nitride bonded shelves is also an electrical insulator, creating even more resistance.  It's still a mystery to me why we're even talking about electrical conductivity of these shelves since just about everything you put in your oven (e.g. racks, cake pans, pie pans, muffin pans, etc.) is electrically conductive.  It would seem to me that adding one more to the list is a non-event.

- red.november

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2008, 11:53:41 AM »
It's still a mystery to me why we're even talking about electrical conductivity of these shelves since just about everything you put in your oven (e.g. racks, cake pans, pie pans, muffin pans, etc.) is electrically conductive.  It would seem to me that adding one more to the list is a non-event.

- red.november
I know that the reason I first mentioned it awhile ago was because of the RED highlighted warnings here http://www.baileypottery.com/kilnfurniture/carbidekilnshelves.htm . Your prior answers put that issue to rest, at least for me.

Thanks

PNW

Offline Essen1

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2008, 02:15:06 PM »
Quote
You mean extreme conditions as in lightning?

LOL  ;D

What are the odds that someone gets struck by lightning while baking a pizza?
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2008, 02:40:27 PM »
What are the odds that someone gets struck by lightning while baking a pizza?
Indoors or outdoors?  LOL

PNW

Offline Essen1

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2008, 03:25:12 PM »
PNW,

Indoors, of course, since we're talking about the "Good ol' home oven"  ;D
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2008, 03:52:37 PM »
PNW,

They might have disclaimed that because of legal reasons, and the possibility of electrical shock is not out of the question.  I think electrocution is very much out of the question though, because when I say shock, I mean 9V battery to the tongue type of shock.

(The following is academic and more for completeness than practicality.)

Just to get some kind of resistance reading I wetted the surface of my shelf and was able to find, in a highly oriented position (this is a semiconductor after all), about 6 megaohms of resistance at 5 mm, or 1.2 x 109 ohm-meters.  So end-to-end of a wet 16" shelf, that's nearly 488 megaohms of resistance.  That's 120 million times more resistivity than the top heating elements in my electric wall oven have.  (Note I haven't measured its resistive impedance specifically, because resistance works well in a general case.)

Since I was already measuring the activity of my oven-bound electron friends, I decided to measure the electrical resistance of my top heating element and calculate the power dissipation.  Hence the reference to the heating element resistivity above.  I measured the length of my top element to be about 174 cm.  The resistance at 10 cm was 1.0 ohm.  Using the equation for power (P = V2/R):

P = 2302 / 17.4
P = 3040.23 W

That result quite frankly caught me off guard, because the last time I measured the wattage of my broiler at the meter, it was exactly 3040 W.  I wasn't expecting it to be that precise in conjunction with the meter reading.  Some fun facts more than anything.

- red.november

EDIT: I forgot to add "million" after "120" for the resistivity difference.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 04:14:07 PM by November »


Offline MazzisPieLvr

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2008, 04:16:10 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure why you arrive at that conclusion.  It doesn't logically follow that since a thicker shelf doesn't have problems with cracking that a thinner one wouldn't either.  Thinner shelves would be more susceptible to cracking.  I do know that with a thickness of 0.625", my shelf is going to be just fine, so I would never bother with buying a spare.  I even damp-cleaned mine prior to using it in the oven for the first time.

I arrive at the conclusion because these are industrial shelves designed for heavy use in a factory. If they can take that kind of punishment without lots of customer complaints I assume that they can handle the task. If they are more susceptible to cracking, its not by much.


Quote
I know that the reason I first mentioned it awhile ago was because of the RED highlighted warnings here http://www.baileypottery.com/kilnfurniture/carbidekilnshelves.htm . Your prior answers put that issue to rest, at least for me.

Yea, that's the reason this newbie decided to post that as well...lol. I'll go back to my corner now...j/k.

Offline MazzisPieLvr

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2008, 04:23:19 PM »
Quote
What are the odds that someone gets struck by lightning while baking a pizza?


We just had a story in the news of a guy who got struck by lightning when he rang a doorbell at the same time lightning struck the house.  :o So DON'T BAKE A PIZZA IN A LIGHTNING STORM...j/k.

Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2008, 04:30:37 PM »
I arrive at the conclusion because these are industrial shelves designed for heavy use in a factory. If they can take that kind of punishment without lots of customer complaints I assume that they can handle the task. If they are more susceptible to cracking, its not by much.

I don't get the "industrial" and "heavy use" references.  Neither reference is used on the web page in any description.  They are simply kiln shelves.  They are not immune to mechanical and thermal stress, which is why some of them have slits.  You'll notice though that the shelf we were talking about does not have slits.  It would be more susceptible to cracking than a thicker shelf of the same length and width.  That makes it less valuable than a thicker shelf in my opinion, and that's all I was trying to convey.

- red.november

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2008, 04:35:48 PM »
red.november

So now that you have dispensed with the electrocution dangers how about describing your actual baking procedures with the Silicon shelf. Are you cooking with the broiler on while the pizza is in the oven or is the heat from the Silicon surface so hot that it is charring the top of the pizza? I know you stated that you heat from above with the broiler as heating from the bottom would be a waste.

PNW

Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2008, 06:04:28 PM »
I know you stated that you heat from above with the broiler as heating from the bottom would be a waste.

Baking Procedure: 1) Preheat the shelf with the broiler. 2) Place pizza on shelf. 3) Pull pizza out when baked.

Offline MazzisPieLvr

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2008, 06:33:16 PM »
Quote
It would be more susceptible to cracking than a thicker shelf of the same length and width.

I am wondering though, in real pizza baking use with the much lower temperatures if this is true to a degree that would result in a much higher percentage of cracked shelves. It would be good to know in case you wanted to use two thin shelves so that it would be lighter to just take out the top shelf for cleaning.


I have been looking at pizza stones on the net and found a 14 5/8" round one with handles at Target for 14.99 that would probably do a fair job, but I'll bet it would be no comparison to the SiC shelves.


Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2008, 06:45:53 PM »
Baking Procedure: 1) Preheat the shelf with the broiler. 2) Place pizza on shelf. 3) Pull pizza out when baked.
Curiosity made me order one!

RN- would you know if the shelf can handle direct flame contact. For example a Fibrament stone cannot be place on the grill without a pan or other blocking of the flame.

Thanks

PNW

Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2008, 06:57:16 PM »
I am wondering though, in real pizza baking use with the much lower temperatures if this is true to a degree that would result in a much higher percentage of cracked shelves. It would be good to know in case you wanted to use two thin shelves so that it would be lighter to just take out the top shelf for cleaning.

SiC shelves are not cheap.  Regardless of the starting percentage of cracking probability, a 0.375" thick shelf is 40% more likely to crack than a 0.625" thick shelf.  I've seen 0.75" shelves break into several pieces from just falling over, so again, immune they are not.  So here's the math even using your wishful 40% discount: $64.00 x 2 = $128.00 - 40% = $76.80 versus $79.75.  A savings of $2.95 on a shelf that is 40% weaker along one axis.  It just doesn't work for me.

- red.november


Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2008, 07:35:18 PM »
Curiosity made me order one!

RN- would you know if the shelf can handle direct flame contact. For example a Fibrament stone cannot be place on the grill without a pan or other blocking of the flame.

As one would expect, results may vary, but I'm anxious to hear from someone else on their results.

SiC is used in direct flame impingement environments, so I'd say so.  FibraMent stones are not designed to take extreme temperatures like traditional refractory materials, so the radiant heat must be kept at bay.  I suspect FibraMent can't withstand the extra heat because of the fabric laminations within the stone.  This is what Mark at FibraMent had to say about extreme baking temperatures: "It is not necessary for baking stones to have a temperature rating that exceeds 750 F."  So if you agree with him, it wouldn't matter.

- red.november
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 07:37:54 PM by November »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2008, 08:09:48 PM »
Quote
SiC is used in direct flame impingement environments, so I'd say so.  FibraMent stones are not designed to take extreme temperatures like traditional refractory materials, so the radiant heat must be kept at bay.  I suspect FibraMent can't withstand the extra heat because of the fabric laminations within the stone.  This is what Mark at FibraMent had to say about extreme baking temperatures: "It is not necessary for baking stones to have a temperature rating that exceeds 750 F."  So if you agree with him, it wouldn't matter.

RN,

Now that makes me wonder how the stones in my LBE are going to hold up with all the insulation that's going to go in. Bottom's a Fibra-D and top is a BGE. SiC might be a better option.


Btw, 1 lb of the Resbond came in today. It'll be a fun weekend  ;D
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2008, 08:15:53 PM »
I can see the next line of T-Shirts being printed....   SIC_Kookers

Offline November

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2008, 08:50:07 PM »
I can see the next line of T-Shirts being printed....   SIC_Kookers

How about: "Need the heat?  Call in SiC."

Offline Essen1

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2008, 08:58:25 PM »
RN & PNW,

You mean something like this?

Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Good ol' home oven
« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2008, 09:56:51 AM »
RN & PNW,

You mean something like this?


What took you so long? LOL

PNW


 

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