Author Topic: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout  (Read 10924 times)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« on: July 16, 2008, 01:47:25 PM »
Spent a good part of the past month messing around with cultures with respect to temperature, time, and type. Although temperature control with the MR-138 is problematic (but much better than nothing), my testing shows the Camaldoli prefers a two-day 65F-70F regimen while the Ischia seems to come out better with 1-day at 70F-75F. But which is better? Today I was able to bake up pies from both batches (using a little wine cooler for the Camaldoli). I thought both were great, with the Camaldoli having a more delicate flavor, but everyone agreed that the Ischia worked better as a whole with the other ingredients. At least until the next batch.   :D

Here are photos of the last pie - yes, it has a lot of cheese. The last pie always gets whatever toppings are left over.   

Bill/SFNM
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 02:45:56 PM by Bill/SFNM »


Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2008, 02:37:56 PM »
Those look awesome Bill. I have been playing back and forth with those two starters and favor the Ischia so far. I just tried making my first batch of San Felice instead of Caputo and the first thing I noticed was the fermentation was much faster than with Caputo. Too fast actually! Do you recall that as being a difference between the two flours???


TIA

PNW

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2008, 02:45:08 PM »
Thanks, PNW.

I have probably done a thousand pizzas (is that possible?) since I dropped the San Felice, and, honestly can't remember a speed difference between SF and Caputo. But as long as you bring it up, what do you mean by "fermentation was faster"? How do you measure this speed? If you are referring to volume growth, I would argue that is only part of fermentation. The development of flavor is a big part of fermentation. The only way I know to truly measure this is when the crust is in your mouth.

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Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2008, 03:08:30 PM »
But as long as you bring it up, what do you mean by "fermentation was faster"? How do you measure this speed? If you are referring to volume growth, I would argue that is only part of fermentation. The development of flavor is a big part of fermentation. The only way I know to truly measure this is when the crust is in your mouth.

Bill/SFNM
I might be confusing terms, but the dough rose 25% more and I had 2 large (2") bubbles on top with a skin over the dough. With the Caputo I have not had any bubbles or a skin form. I did everything exactly the same and did note the dough was a bit drier. Next time I would use a little more water. I am also thinking with the SF I might not add any bread flour like I usually do. I still have about 54lbs to play with, so I am hoping I can solve the problem. Have yet to bake them. I will make some baguettes tonight before making pizza so that I can know if they will work.

PNW

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 03:41:09 PM »
My Ischia starter seems to be a more active beast than the Camaldoli. My baguette bake turned out great except for 1-2 minutes too long in the oven. A slight char on them that kept some from eating them, more for my son & I. The oven spring was my best ever and the Ischia imparted a very strong tangy lip smacking sourdough flavor. The Camaldoli is normally much milder. This bread was as good if not better than anything I had in 15 years of San Francisco eating.

My guess is that I have to drop down to less than 5% starter for the next batch. Will be baking the pizza tonight, splurged on the Bufala Mozz for the wife - toxins be damned.

PNW

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 03:43:40 PM »
Although temperature control with the MR-138 is problematic (but much better than nothing),
Bill/SFNM
I have been thinking about this statement and now I am wondering how exactly are you monitoring the temps to know that they are off. As I recall you say they fluctuate 5 degrees.


PNW

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 03:55:23 PM »
I have been thinking about this statement and now I am wondering how exactly are you monitoring the temps to know that they are off. As I recall you say they fluctuate 5 degrees.


PNW

The LED readout on the MR-138 reports the current temperature.

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2008, 07:22:01 PM »
The LED readout on the MR-138 reports the current temperature.
Since I was unable to get the MR-138 I am using the Koolatron which has a temp readout as well. Once it gets to temp, it stays pretty much at that temp. I don't necessarily trust that what it says is the real temp, but it seems to cycle on and off maintaining temps.

I did not want to spend the extra money, but Koolatron makes modified units that are better insulated and have precise temperature monitoring controls that are supposed to keep it within a very small tolerance from the setting. As I recall they start @ $300


PNW

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2008, 09:10:04 AM »
Ischia San Felice bake was slightly different than a similarly prepared Caputo pizza. In the opinion of my tasters not enough different to warrant an investigation of who stole my Caputo. In this instance I would say I could use either flour and be happy with the results.

As to the starters I prefer Ischia over Camaldoli for now.

PNW
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 09:12:27 AM by Pizza_Not_War »


Offline Essen1

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2008, 09:55:06 PM »
PNW,

Beautifully done! I'm wondering what the single ball weight is that you used to make those pies?
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2008, 11:57:38 PM »
PNW,

Beautifully done! I'm wondering what the single ball weight is that you used to make those pies?
Thanks Mike,

I am usually at 270 - 280 grams. In this case the San Felice handled slightly different than the Caputo. The taste was similar.

PNW

Offline Essen1

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2008, 03:38:58 PM »
PNW,

I forgot to ask, but I assume your pies are roughly 12" in size at a weight of 270 - 280gr?
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2008, 06:47:10 PM »
PNW,

I forgot to ask, but I assume your pies are roughly 12" in size at a weight of 270 - 280gr?
I always shoot for 14" and it usually winds up being about 13". I get a very thin crust in the center and a larger outer crust.

PNW

Offline Matthew

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2009, 08:12:00 AM »
Spent a good part of the past month messing around with cultures with respect to temperature, time, and type. Although temperature control with the MR-138 is problematic (but much better than nothing), my testing shows the Camaldoli prefers a two-day 65F-70F regimen while the Ischia seems to come out better with 1-day at 70F-75F.





Bill,

Do you do this with the bulk dough or after the balls are formed?

Matt

Offline koloa101

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2009, 10:50:07 AM »
hi Bill,
At what temp are you baking your pies?

i just order the Italian starters from soudo and the book. im pretty excited!

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2009, 11:15:23 AM »

Do you do this with the bulk dough or after the balls are formed?


Bulk until 4-5 hours before bake. Then form and proof. Leftover balls are proofed and placed in fridge and can be used for the next several days with excellent results.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2009, 11:20:22 AM »
Bulk until 4-5 hours before bake. Then form and proof. Leftover balls are proofed and placed in fridge and can be used for the next several days with excellent results.

I used to measure religiously, but now I don't bother. I'm guessing the deck is between 900F-950F.


Offline Barry

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2009, 02:09:04 AM »
Quote
Leftover balls are proofed and placed in fridge and can be used for the next several days with excellent results.

Hi Bill/SFNM,

Do you punch the proofed balls down before you place them in the refrigerator ?  Do you squash a number of them back into a bulk ball again, or reshape them into "tight" balls ? How many days are they good for ?

So many questions !

Kind regards.

Barry

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2009, 02:15:26 AM »
Hi Bill/SFNM,

Do you punch the proofed balls down before you place them in the refrigerator ?  Do you squash a number of them back into a bulk ball again, or reshape them into "tight" balls ? How many days are they good for ?

So many questions !

Kind regards.

Barry

Barry,

I do not punch them down. After I remove them from the refrigerator, I reshape into tight balls and allow to proof again for 4-5 hours. I think the longest I've let them go for is 4-5 days.

Bill/SFNM

Offline Barry

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2009, 06:55:51 AM »
Hi Bill/SFNM,

Thanks for your prompt reply.

I am going to try your method at the end of the month when my new "low-flat dome" oven will be "burned-in" after a second covering of insulation was installed recently.

I placed an order with sourdo.com this morning for their 2 Italian starters. I guess that these are the Ischia and the Camaldoli starters.

I have used the "1847 Oregon Trail" starter in the past with mixed results.

On a recent trip to Naples, Italy, I was expecting to find Salvo using a starter, but was shown the fresh yeast that they use.

I will post my experiences with the 2 Italian starters when the arrive.

Kind regards.

Barry

Offline Matthew

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2009, 08:03:14 AM »


I have used the "1847 Oregon Trail" starter in the past with mixed results.


[/quote]


I too have a package of Carl's sourdough, is it worth activating?
I've been using Camaldoli with excellent results; it's extremely active.  I have yet to activate my Ischia. 

Offline Matthew

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2009, 09:05:58 AM »
Spent a good part of the past month messing around with cultures with respect to temperature, time, and type. Although temperature control with the MR-138 is problematic (but much better than nothing), my testing shows the Camaldoli prefers a two-day 65F-70F regimen while the Ischia seems to come out better with 1-day at 70F-75F. But which is better? Today I was able to bake up pies from both batches (using a little wine cooler for the Camaldoli). I thought both were great, with the Camaldoli having a more delicate flavor, but everyone agreed that the Ischia worked better as a whole with the other ingredients. At least until the next batch.   :D

Here are photos of the last pie - yes, it has a lot of cheese. The last pie always gets whatever toppings are left over.   

Bill/SFNM

Hi Bill,
Can you kindly share your dough formulation?

Thanks,
Matt
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 09:48:05 AM by Matthew »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2009, 11:25:38 AM »
Hi Bill,
Can you kindly share your dough formulation?

Thanks,
Matt

For 6 pies (240g of dough per 10"-12"pie)

870g Caputo "00" Pizzeria Flour
527g water
91g Ischia, activated
26g salt

1-2 day room temp bulk fermentation
shape
5 hour proof
Top, bake @ 900F-975F (deck temp) for 45-60 seconds


Offline JConk007

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2009, 12:13:45 PM »
And you kindly share your starter too ;D PLease? Just a small chunk?
I am getting excited about firing up the earthstone after a fun winter playing with and learning alot about the home oven pizzas, and differnt styles. Now- I need to get this starter thing worked out so I can have pies that resemble your masterpieces Bill. Where should I start as far as getting going with use of such starter? Sourdo.com? Is there a particular thread that you think may help me along this path?
I am looking to take the WFO to the next level.
Thankyou Bill
JOhn
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline Matthew

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Re: Camaldoli vs. Ischia shootout
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2009, 12:36:18 PM »
For 6 pies (240g of dough per 10"-12"pie)

870g Caputo "00" Pizzeria Flour
527g water
91g Ischia, activated
26g salt

1-2 day room temp bulk fermentation
shape
5 hour proof
Top, bake @ 900F-975F (deck temp) for 45-60 seconds



Thanks alot Bill, I really appreciate it.  I have been plugging in the the percentages of the weights that you provided in the preferment dough calculator & am having a tough time coming up with your amounts.  My recollection is that your starter is 48% water, I am trying to adjust your formula to my percentage of water; which is 50.
According to my calculations the overall hydration of your dough is 65.6% (91 X.48+527)/870 & the amount of starter that you use is 6.3% of the total dough weight.  Is this correct?

Matt


 

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