Author Topic: smooth dough balls (Read 3941 times)

artigiano · « **on:** July 20, 2008, 07:28:28 PM »

I was wondering if it is normal to often have smooth dough balls all around except for the underneath where the dough sort of comes togethor. I have about 25 people coming over for wood-fired pizzas tommorrow and hope they turn out ok and are easy enough to stretch. The dough is very nice all around but has some major creases underneath, hopefully after the 24 hour cold rise and the 3 hour room temp rise they will be good for the party. I use a pastry flour/ all prurpose mix with only sea salt and fresh yeast with some olive oil to coat. What do you guys think?

artigiano · « **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2008, 07:52:45 PM »

I would am also posting to find out if I should leave them in the fridge for around 12 hours and then try to re-roll them and put them back on for another 12 cold fermentation. I am just a little concerned because they were quite hydrated and I am not sure why they seem to develop these creases plus I have a lot of pizzas to make for people. Anyway, The top and sides are nice and smooth and well hydrated so If it is better to work with what I have then I might as well. Everything has been measured out so it is not a matter of dry dough.. wondering what other factors are involved?

Pete-zza · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2008, 08:00:17 PM »

Allesandro,

I don't know if it will help, but the same subject came up recently at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6899.0.html. One of our members, Essen1 (Mike), also posted a link recently to a YouTube video that shows how the "snake" method is used to make individual dough balls that are pinched out of a rope of dough to make discrete dough balls that can then be shaped into a rounder form. That video is at

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSS0WJSS41o" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSS0WJSS41o</a>

. The WoodStone link at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm (also referenced by Mike, in the abovereferenced thread), also does a good job of showing the same process.

I'm not sure what re-shaping the cold dough balls after 12 hours in the refrigerator will do in terms of getting rid of the creases. I would think that the dough balls would have to be soft and warm before reshaping to get rid of the creases. You might experiment with a few of the dough balls to see if that will work.

Peter

artigiano · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2008, 09:17:19 PM »

As always thanks for the quick reply Pete. I love the way they shape the dough balls, it seems very efficient. I always weigh mine out to exactly 10 oz so it would take a lot of practice to get that method down so they are close to the right weight and size. I have not had any problems with these crevices lately and the dough usually comes out very nice so I am a little surprised. At this point I think I may just have to work with them if I can't close them up and make them very smooth underneath for tommorrows party. I agree, not much can be done when the dough is cold. Let me know if you can think of any other possible solutions, I would appreciate it. Do you think that these crevises underneath the smooth dough ball will pose much of a problem? I also wonder if it is possibly due to dough that may be a little under kneaded.. I thought it was good but I was also in a rush so it could be possible.

thanks Peter

Pete-zza · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2008, 09:37:31 PM »

Al,

I suppose the crevices could have come about by underkneading but, in my experience, the creation of crevices in dough balls tend to be hydration related, specifically, a hydration that is too low. I also discovered recently that a hydration can be fairly low (e.g., 56-58%) but if there is enough oil added to the dough, the dough will end up soft and supple without the formation of crevices.

Without seeing examples of the dough balls in question, it is hard to say how they will behave when you are ready to use them. I think I would be inclined to place the crevice side up as you are letting the dough balls warm up and try to press the crevices out as you flatten the dough balls and open them up to full size.

Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter

artigiano · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2008, 10:14:10 PM »

Peter, sorry I wish I could take a pic for you to see but I am at work right now so they are sitting in the fridge at home and I am at work. I had left them crevace side down before wrapping them as I thought the weight might help them decrease a little. I can always flip them back and re-saran wrap the trays when I get home around midnight tonite so the crevace side is face up. The creases started out small but I noticed that they became larger before wrapping them. I checked them in the fridge just before I left the house to go to work. Anyway, I think you are right, when shaping them the nice smooth side would be better face down. Also for sliding these 25 pizzas in and out of the brick oven. I believe they were quite well hydrated as I stuck to my formula and the skins were almost sticking to my fingers when rolling them.

Do the VPN guys usually just eyeball the dough size? Thats pretty impressive.

Essen1 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2008, 11:19:49 PM »

Artigiano,

Here's another IMHO educational video, which shows you how the guys in Italy shape the dough balls. And if you look closely, you can also see what the water temp is, the dough temp and the dough ball weight.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP6kHvYdwnk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP6kHvYdwnk</a>

Hope that helps...

artigiano · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2008, 12:09:37 AM »

Thanks Essen1. This is usually the method I use for the most part. I was surprised to see the guys in the VPN video from Peter not weighing their dough balls before putting them into the tray. I will definately study these videos. I sometimes wonder how long it will take for me to get to the point where I start giving some advice rather than asking it on this forum. Pizza can humble you when you have an off day and the challenge, science behind and different styles is what keeps me so interested.

Essen1 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2008, 12:20:51 AM »

Artigiano,

I'm still learning, too. I guess when it comes to pizza dough and the sheer amount of info, tips, tricks, formulas, etc., that is available today, one will never really stop learning new things.

scpizza · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2008, 01:15:23 AM »

Ugh, I would not study that promotional video too carefully. I've no idea what type of pizza those poor people are trying to make, but it's not Neapolitan.

Try this video instead:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snxHM5KFBsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snxHM5KFBsA</a>

Essen1 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2008, 01:21:34 AM »

SCP,

I posted the same thing here (Reply #8):

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6974.msg59887.html#msg59887

scpizza · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2008, 08:46:33 AM »

You are on it. Good video. I thought those specs were fishy. Good catch that they are just lifted from the disciplinare.

artigiano · « **Reply #12 on:** July 22, 2008, 10:19:49 PM »

Loved watching these vids. Ok, my pizza party was average. I usually have better pizzas coming out of that oven but they were still pretty good. I took the dough out about 3 or 4 hours before we started using them since I thought that it would help with the crevaces in the dough. They were easy to stretch but I think they became a little too fluffy since they started to over proof. They tasted more doughy after being cooked which I did not like. For some reason that I can't pin point my dough seemed more doughy tasting rather than the usual crisp,light and airey but it leads me to believe that the hydration was a little high. I took a thermal reading of my oven and it was kicking at around 800 degrees F so I knew the temp should have been ok for my current hydration of around 62%. After a while the doughs became hard to handle as they were very extensible which was a challenge. Any idea of how to keep the dough stable for longer without having these changes in the dough occur where they become to soft to handle? I usually work with them after they are out for 2 hours and I feel that is the perfect amount of time. When I have a large party of 20 people to feed it is not always easy to time when to take the dough out especially if some are coming over later than expected.

thanks

Pete-zza · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2008, 10:30:18 PM »

Quote from: artigiano on July 22, 2008, 10:19:49 PM

Any idea of how to keep the dough stable for longer without having these changes in the dough occur where they become to soft to handle?

Al,

If you are using a combination of all-purpose flour and pastry flour, there is a pretty good chance that your hydration is too high. The higher the hydration, the faster the dough will ferment and the greater the chances of getting an overly extensible dough. You might want to try a hydration of around 56-58% and see if that reduces the extensibility of the dough.

I know that originally you were looking to use 00 flour to make your dough but that the flour was not readily available at the time where you are in Canada. Has that situation changed?

Peter

Tiramisu · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2008, 10:55:33 PM »

I was wondering where one could find one of those hydration probes that people are using in some of the youtube videos posted in this thread. I tried a Google search for "Hydration meter" and probe but no luck. All I could find was PH meters. Any help would be appreciated.

Essen1 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 22, 2008, 11:07:25 PM »

Tiramisu...

http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&q=moisture+meter&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

Unfortunately, I don't know if they also can be used for dough. You might want to search around a bit more.

scpizza · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2008, 11:16:38 PM »

Those are temperature probes, not hydration probes.

There are moisture meters for wood, paper, plaster, concrete. Hydrations measured by these devices are usually between 5%-40%, much lower than dough.

There are no meters designed for dough that I've found. Even if a meter intended for construction materials could be found that would read high enough hydration, I don't know how accurate it would be in dough. Dough has varying levels of salt and fermentation byproducts in it which would affect the conductivity and thus the meter reading.

Essen1 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2008, 11:34:23 PM »

scpizza,

That's what I thought, too. The hydration/moisture levels they are measuring are way too low for any kind of dough.

I don't think such a gadget exists. Yet.

artigiano · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2008, 11:37:57 PM »

Peter,

I can only find very small bags of 00 flour and I am quite happy with the taste from the pastry/ap flour mix so I havent bothered looking for it anymore. You are right about the hydration and pastry flour. Now that I am thinking back at what I did differently is that this time I used pastry flour for bench flour instead of the AP i always work in at the end to get the dough to the point that id doesnt stick to my fingers. I dont use a lot of extra flour but enough to make a difference in thew final result. I think that at the time my rational was the pastry flour would make the dough a little softer but it definately made for an over extensible dough.

Essen1 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2008, 11:58:58 PM »

Artigiano,

That sounds like the bags my local grocer sells here. It's the Caputo Blue 00. I tried that one, too, and it didn't work very well. You can order the Caputo Pizza flour from Pennmac.

http://www.pennmac.com/page/27

They sell it in 5lbs bags.