Author Topic: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe  (Read 21958 times)

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Offline PizzaManic

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Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« on: July 22, 2008, 10:29:53 AM »
Hi Everyone
Nice to meet you all
I’m quite new to this forum so if my question is in the wrong category, my apologies. I am sure a mod will move it.

I Just have a few quick questions regarding a Pan Pizza Recipe and pizza in general to ask you guys. I understand that this is quite a lengthy message but please read it all. I basically spelled out everything about my question in much detail.

Here in South Africa, we have a Local Pizzeria that I just love to buy the Pan Pizza From.
Problem is this Pizzeria is quite out of my way to buy as often as I would like. I thought let me try to come close to this recipe by making my own. I searched the net and found Pizza Hut Pan Pizza Recipe (By the way I haven’t tasted Pizza Hut as I don’t have one anywhere near me). I used the following recipe found on many sites all over the internet.

1 1/3 cups warm water (105 F)
1/4 cup non-fat powdered milk
1/2 teaspoon salt
4 cups flour
1 tablespoon granulated sugar
1 (1/16 ounce) package dry yeast
2 tablespoons vegetable oil (for dough)
9 ounces vegetable oil (3 ounces per pan)

Made a Dough out of this, placed it in a Pan filled with 3OZ Vegetable Oil (Not Olive Oil) and let it rise for about 1.5 Hrs. Baked it in the oven till it browned.

Then came the main Test. Comparing the Homemade Pizza Hut Pan Pizza to the Pizza purchased from my Local Pizzeria. Below is the differences I have found.

Pizza Hut Pan Pizza - About 1 Inch Thick. The Outer part of the pizza as well as the bottom was very nice and crispy but the only problem I found was the inside was very doughy. The best way I can describe it to you is by comparing it to a BAKED SCONE. Another description would be to a biscuit texture or bread features.
If I were to take my Thumb and Index finger and press the pizza, I would feel the hardness in it.
My small summary is that Pizza Hut Pan Pizza is quite nice but its just too hard and doughy on the inner. Everything else is perfect.

Local Pizzeria - Also about 1 Inch Thick. Both outer and bottom of the pizza is very nice and crispy. Now comes the main part and that is the Inside Dough. It is very very soft, Spongy and Light. Its almost as if the entire pizza is made out of cheese, that’s how soft it is.
If I would take my thumb and Index finger and press the pizza, I would literally able to feel my index finger and thumb touching each other.
This is what I call Pizza perfect. Soft, Spongy and Light inside.

I tried doing some research for a recipe like this to no avail. I did come across something quite interesting. There is a Pizza found In US, called GOODFELLAS'S. It comes frozen at convenient stores. From reading quite allot of reviews about this pizza, I believe that it is quite what I’m looking for. Maybe this might help you guys help me in the quest to find this recipe.

Also if someone knows, How do I freeze a PAN PIZZA after it is formed?
All suggestions are gladly welcomed.

Once again guys, I really need all you’ll help. I am practically on my Knees begging for someone to share this kind of recipe. I’m sure not only me but many others all over this forum would love a Recipe like this.

Looking forward to hearing from someone soon.

Regards Mo


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2008, 11:29:22 AM »
cinnamos,

Having extensively researched the Pizza Hut pan pizza, I believe that the recipe you used is not the recipe for the real thing. I saw the same recipe in several places on the internet when I did my research. Since I did not try that recipe, I can't tell you how close it comes to an authentic PH pan pizza. You perhaps should also be aware that PH has changed its pan pizza dough formulation over the years. Some years ago, in the U.S., PH went from fresh dough to frozen dough almost exclusively in its U.S. stores. The ingredients list for their current pan pizza dough can be seen at http://www.pizzahut.com/Files/PDF/PIZZA%20HUT%20INGREDIENT%20STATEMENTS%202008.pdf. In some places outside of the U.S., for example, in India and The Philippines, fresh doughs are still used but apparently the laws of those countries do not require PH to provide the same level of nutrition information as in the U.S. As a result, I was not able to find a current dough formulation or ingredients list for their fresh dough. The closest I was able to come for a fresh pan pizza dough ingredients list was this one: http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf (page 4). You will note that the water was inadvertently left out of the ingredients list. It should precede the vegetable oil in the ingredients listing.

What most of the members on this forum have been using for a PH pan pizza clone is the recipe given in the recipes section of this forum at http://www.pizzamaking.com/panpizza.php. It's possible that the recipe you used was derived from that one. However, I do not believe that that recipe is the authentic PH recipe either although the results may be close to the real thing. That recipe also produces a lot of dough, more than what PH uses in its stores. Some members have complained as a result that the finished pizza dough is too thick. So some of those members have cut the dough in half to make two pan pizzas out of that amount of dough. I even converted the recipe to baker's percent format and scaled the dough to the weight used by PH in its stores. That effort was described in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4607.msg38909.html#msg38909.

As part of your personal research, you might find it helpful to read the following threads:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4067.msg33930/topicseen.html#msg33930
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6040.msg51761.html#msg51761
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,213.0.html
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2906.0.html

Having done a lot of reverse engineering and cloning of pizza doughs, I believe that I can safely tell you that it is not easy to do this. You need a lot of information, such as ingredients lists, nutrition data, and types and brands of ingredients. Working from just crust characteristics, such as "soft, spongy and light" usually will be insufficient. You can spend years experimenting with making pizzas to get those characteristics and yet not achieve the real thing. You also have to take into consideration the different ovens that the commercial places use compared with what we use in our homes. PH and many of its counterparts in the U.S. use air impingement conveyor ovens. We use standard home ovens for the most part that are more like deck ovens. The two types of ovens do not bake the same way, especially when it comes to the way that the tops of pizzas get heat. It is possible that in your case that the PH clone you made needed baking at a lower temperature for a longer time in order to reduce or eliminate the doughy character of the crust you made.

You might try the PH clone recipe mentioned above and see how that compares with the local pan pizza. From that comparison, it may be possible to get a few more clues to work with.

As best I can tell, the Goodfella's frozen pizzas are sold in the UK and are not available in the U.S. Is there a particular one of the Goodfella's pizzas that you were using as a benchmark (see http://www.northern-foods.co.uk/goodfellasdeeplydelicious.htm for the choices)? If you have another Goodfella's in mind (there are several places specializing in pizza using that name in the U.S.), please provide a link to the one you have in mind.

There are several ways of freezing pizzas, as is discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3997.msg33396/topicseen.html#msg33396. However, static freezing is much inferior to flash freezing, and using a lot of wet toppings can pose difficult problems. Frozen pizza producers often pre-bake the bases for their pizzas, dress them, and bake some more (but not completely). For deep-dish bases of the sort that I think you have in mind, I suspect that the dough skins are proofed in a warm, humidified environment utilizing specialized equipment before par-baking.

Peter

EDIT (4/20/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the above Pizza Hut pdf document, see http://web.archive.org/web/20100602083641/http://www.pizzahut.com/Files/PDF/PIZZA%20HUT%20INGREDIENT%20STATEMENTS%20September%202008.pdf
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 06:54:44 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2008, 07:20:30 AM »
Hi Petezza
Thanks so much for the reply
I know my response is quite or should I say very late. Sorry about that but things have just been very hectic on my side.

I read through you response a dozen times and you have thought me alot.

With regards to your comment on getting the right ingredients lists, nutrition data, and types and brands of ingredients, I need to get the closest most best type of ingredients available in my country. I see alot of you guys using KABR flour. We dont have most brands used there in US.
The best I can get to using flour closest to what is being used in the US is by contacting flour manufacturers here in SA and give them all the details of characteristics of the flour I require, included in there would be nutrition data.

Can u assist me in giving me the type of questions that needs to be asked to flour manufacturers here and see who comes the closest to the flour I require. I beleive that protein level as well as gluten is an important factor when choosing flour. So if you could give me advice of what characteristics the flour I buy should have that would help alot.

I have also been looking at the PH Pizza recipe which you scaled down, and I notice something there called ADY. What is this?

With regards to the water, does it have to be a specific temp and would it be advisable to boil it first then use it so all the chemicals in the water are killed.

I have using normal Dry Milk. Do u think this would cause a problem with the thickness of the crust and if I leave it out will it affect the texture/taste of the pizza in anyway.

Can u scale down the recipe for a pizza which would be around 8 Inches. I have a nice small pan so I can do many trials without investing too much.

Thanks again for all the help and assistance
Looking forward to hearing from you

Regards
Regards Mo

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2008, 10:11:14 AM »
cinnamos,

We have at least one regular posting member from South Africa and my recollection is that the flours that you have available in SA are quite different than the flour choices we have in the U.S. For example, in the U.S., bread flour typically has a protein content of around 12-13%. If you plan to use bread flour, that would be the protein level you should be looking for as you approach sources of flour. If you can’t find bread flour, but can find an all-purpose flour, which typically has a protein content of around 10-11% in the U.S., you may be able to supplement it with vital wheat gluten (VWG)—that is, if you can locate it where you are. The key piece of information that you may want to look for in VWG is its protein content, since that will largely govern how much to add to your base flour for supplementation purposes. A typical range of protein content for VWG available in the U.S. is 65-75%.

ADY is active dry yeast. It is a dry form of yeast that has to be rehydrated in water at around 105 degrees F for about ten minutes before using. Typically, one uses only a small amount of the formula water to rehydrate the ADY. The rest of the water can, and usually should, be kept on the cool side to keep the dough from fermenting too quickly. You can use other forms of yeast, but doing so will require modifying the dough formulation you decide to use.

As for the water I use to make pizza dough, I have tried just about every form, including water from the tap. I have never found a need to boil the water before using. I typically use bottled water because I don’t like the taste of my local municipal water.

With respect to using dry milk, it does not appear that PH is using dry milk any longer in its pan dough (frozen) product in the U.S. The only dairy product they are now using in their pan dough in the U.S. is whey. It no doubt is a commercial high-heat baker’s grade dairy whey that is specially processed to disable a component of milk that can lead to an overly soft dough. Most users of dairy whey use it for crust coloration purposes, although from my experience using whey it does have certain effects on the texture of the dough. In those countries where PH may still be using dairy products in their pan dough formulation, it is possible that they are using one or more of these products, all commercial baker’s grade: whey, nonfat dry milk, and dry buttermilk. In the U.S., a blend of all three of these dairy products can be obtained, but one would have to buy a 50-lb. bag, since it is not a retail, consumer-oriented product. However, in the U.S. one can obtain all three dairy products at retail in smaller quantities and combine them to produce a blend. As far as omitting dry milk from a PH clone dough, you can try leaving it out to see whether you like the results. For some background on how and why milk products are used in pizza dough, you might take a look at this thread from the PMQ Think Tank forum at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=2027#2027.

I took the dough formulation that I posted at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4607.msg38909.html#msg38909 and scaled it down to an amount that you might want to experiment with with your 8” pan. I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the test dough formulation, based on a dough weight of 7.2 ounces (204.12 grams). You should feel free to play around with the expanded dough calculating tool to change the dough weights as you do your testing. You can also use the tool to leave out the nonfat dry milk. I left the nonfat dry milk in the test dough formulation since it is part of the original dough formulation. The nonfat dry milk in this case is a supermarket brand (in the U.S., it is the Carnation brand). You should be able to substitute a local brand if you wish but if you choose to use a baker’s grade dry milk powder, you will have to substitute that for the nonfat dry milk in the tool. I also used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% in the tool. This is to compensate for minor dough losses that occur during the preparation of the dough because of dough sticking to the mixer bowl, dough hook, work surfaces, fingers, etc.

Here is the test dough formulation:

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (55.555%):
ADY (1.18518%):
Salt (0.875%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4.27199%):
Sugar (1.875%):
Carnation Dry Non-Fat Milk (2.35155%):
Total (166.11372%):
124.72 g  |  4.4 oz | 0.27 lbs
69.29 g  |  2.44 oz | 0.15 lbs
1.48 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
1.09 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.2 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
5.33 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.17 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
2.34 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
2.93 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.04 tsp | 0.68 tbsp
207.18 g | 7.31 oz | 0.46 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5% (the nominal dough weight = 7.2 ounces)

Keep in mind that the above dough formulation assumes that the dough “patty” you end up will have a diameter that is a bit smaller than the 8” pan you will be using. This is consistent with the way that PH used to make it fresh pan doughs (e.g., using a 12” patty in a 14” pan). 

Good luck.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2008, 11:25:31 AM »
Hi Peter
Once again excellent response.

You take into account every single detail and I like that cause many people forget the most smallest details like how hot or cold a certain ingredient needs to be before mixing it with other ingredients and this tends to mess up the whole recipe. Once again best of compliments to you.

I will most definitely try what you have given me and post my results back here.
With regards to your last comments, about the Dough Size being slightly smaller than the Pan Size, how large must I roll out my dough once I am ready. You mentioned that a 14" pizza is rolled out to 12" so what size would a 8" pizza need to be rolled out to. I hope what I am saying is correct to my understanding and please do correct me if I am wrong.

If it is OK with you, can you PM me the Name of the other member from South Africa that posts on this forum. I think it would be really helpfull if he dosen't mind sharing with me what brand of ingredients he uses and how close does the cloned pizza's he makes comes to the originals.

Once again thanks alot for all the assistance. Its greatly appreciated.

Regards
Regards Mo

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2008, 11:36:42 AM »
cinnamos,

I would try making the dough patty about 7" in diameter and make adjustments from there.

You should be able to find the name of the member I mentioned by doing a forum search under "South Africa" (without the quotes). To the best of my knowledge, that member has not been making PH clones.

You might also want to take a look at the following thread to see if it is closer to what you are looking for: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6792.0.html.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 11:39:21 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2008, 10:46:35 AM »
Hi Pete

Regarding the Pan Pizza Recipe that u scaled down for me to 8", if I use IDY, what would be the exact weight of each ingredient in that regard. Also would you or anyone else personally advise me on which would be better IDY or ADY. IDY is more easily obtainable for me than ADY.

Regards
Cinnamos
Regards Mo

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2008, 11:11:11 AM »
Cinnamos,

Here you are:

Flour (100%):
Water (55.555%):
IDY (0.88885%):
Salt (0.875%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4.27199%):
Sugar (1.875%):
Dry Non-Fat Milk (2.35155%):
Total (165.81739%):
126.82 g  |  4.47 oz | 0.28 lbs
70.45 g  |  2.49 oz | 0.16 lbs
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
1.11 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.2 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
5.42 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.19 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
2.38 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
2.98 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.07 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
210.29 g | 7.42 oz | 0.46 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5% (the nominal dough weight = 7.2 oz.)

Different people prefer different types of yeast. If IDY is easier for you to find, that is fine.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2008, 03:58:56 AM »
Hi Pete
Thanks so Much

Regarding using IDY, will it make any significant difference to the texture of the dough in any way. Will IDY make the Pizza very Bread like or will it be chewy which is the way I prefer it. Also by Using IDY can I use the method whereby the dough is placed in the fridge overnight for a minimum time of 24HRS. Will I need to leave it for a lesser time than suggested with use of ADY as IDY activates much quicker.

Cinnamos
Regards Mo


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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2008, 08:14:49 AM »
Cinnamos,

I have not personally tried the dough recipe but I think that the sugar, oil and nonfat dry milk powder at the levels indicated will have more of an effect on the texture of the crumb than the IDY. The dry milk powder should also help to improve color in the crust. In my experience, other factors that tend to affect the texture of the crumb are long fermentation times (of the order of several days), the use of preferments, and the use of natural starter cultures. My advice is to try the recipe as given and see if you like the results from a texture standpoint.

You can use the IDY as you would the ADY in pretty much all respects, including fermentation of the dough in the refrigerator. Just keep in mind that, unlike ADY, there is no need to rehydrate the IDY. You can just add it to the flour and other dry ingredients.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 08:10:20 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2008, 06:10:06 AM »
Hi All
I finally got down to doing this recipe this last weekend. It was long overdue but finally done. Here's my Adventure so to speak of each and every step I did and my thoughts on what problems I encountered.

NB : I had measured each and every item on a digital scale exactly to the T.
The flour I had used in my recipe was White Bread Flour. The amount of protein in the flour is 11.7G per 100 Grams Uncooked (This was whats on the packaging).
This is the recipe I used as per Petezza Reply.

Cinnamos,

Here you are:

Flour (100%):
Water (55.555%):
IDY (0.88885%):
Salt (0.875%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4.27199%):
Sugar (1.875%):
Dry Non-Fat Milk (2.35155%):
Total (165.81739%):
126.82 g  |  4.47 oz | 0.28 lbs
70.45 g  |  2.49 oz | 0.16 lbs
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
1.11 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.2 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
5.42 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.19 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
2.38 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
2.98 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.07 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
210.29 g | 7.42 oz | 0.46 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5% (the nominal dough weight = 7.2 oz.)

Different people prefer different types of yeast. If IDY is easier for you to find, that is fine.

Peter


1) I started out with measuring my water. I placed the water in a bowl. By the way the water was not hot and not ice cold but just between warm and cold.
2) I then added my IDY with the water and mixed thoroughly. I let stand for a few minutes while I mixed the balance of the Dry Ingredients.
3) I mixed the flour, salt and sugar together separately. I left out the Dry milk completely.
4) I then added all the dry ingredients to the Water and IDY. I kneaded with my Hand Mixer fitted with dough hooks for approx 4 Mins on speed 2. Once all the ingredients mixed properly, the dough was a little scrappy. I used the advice of XPHGMR and poured in a little oil at a time simultaneously hand kneading the dough for about 7-8 Mins.
5) To my surprise the dough formed a neat Smooth Cohesive Ball. I weight it and even more surprised when It weighed exactly 7.2 OZ. U guys are extremely accurate with you'lls measurements.
6) I then rolled the dough out to approx 7 Inches with a rolling pin. I quickly oiled my pan. I didn't use nearly as much oil as was called for. U can say maybe about 7-8 tea spoons. It just about covered the bottom of the pan.
7) I placed the dough in the pan and stretched it towards the edges of the pan. I tightly enclosed the pan in a packet and left it outside at room temp to rise for approx an hour. I then placed it in the fridge for the rest of the day, night and part of the next day. Exactly 24 HRS later, all anticipated and excited, i was ready to bake. I quickly mixed some sauces together (Nothing really special as I was more concerned to get the crust correct, the sauce will be another adventure all together). I topped the pizza with sauce, Cheese, Green Peppers, Green Chilli and sliced tomatoes. At this stage i was unexpectedly disturbed so I enclosed the pizza again in the packet and placed the pan in the fridge again.
8) I took it out from the fridge about 1/2 an hour later and popped it into my preheated oven which was set at 210 Degrees Celsius. I baked it on lowest rack for about 8-10 Mins and then moved it to the very top rack for about another 5 Mins. I will have to admit that I was in such a hurry to taste the damn thing that I rushed and took it out of my oven before its time.

My Thoughts
Never the less the underneath was quite done and have to admit extremely crispy. Just the way I wanted it. Now comes to the main test. The inside of the crust. I took the first bite and have to admit that I had really mixed feelings. I found it soft like how I asked for it to be so this time there was not too much dough like my last attempt. But there was something missing in this recipe. For 1 I found the salt a bit less so I will be sure to add more the next time.
THE MAIN THING THAT I WAS LOOKING FOR WAS NOT THERE. It was not as chewy as the one I buy from that local pizzeria in my area. I also found it a Teady Weady bit bread like. The inside was very crummy but soft. My comparison to the one purchased from my local pizzeria is that the one I made had some nice texture to it but still didn't come close. To be quite honest I would say that I am 60% there. Just need to get it to be more Chewy, Less crummy on the inside of the base and less bread like characteristics.
Once again my description of the Local Pizzeria's Pan Pizza is as if an entire block of mozzarella check is melted and then left for about 5-6 minutes after to cool a bit and then eaten. That's hour chewy the pizza is. Mine was not like that. In fact it was very crummy that it began to break when I was lifting it out of the pan.

Petezza and all u other experts out there, what suggestions can u offer. I don't know what was the gluten level in the flour that I used. I contacted many of my local flour manufactured to inquire on purchasing High Gluten Flour but would you believe it that none of them sell. Not 1. I then searched around for VWG and guess what. No where to be found. What other suggestions can u guys give for me to add to the recipe above to make it more chewy.

Also i know this is a long shot, but would anyone know the process of Extracting the VWG from the flour. I was thinking that maybe I can extract it my self and use it in my next attempt.

Really looking forward to hearing from someone soon.
** Excited as hell to try again **
Cinnamos
Regards Mo

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2008, 10:42:03 AM »
Cinnamos,

Do you have access to semolina flour? That is an ingredient that is often used to increase the chewiness of the crust.

As you can see from the Pizza Glosssary at this forum, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#V, vital wheat gluten is dried wheat protein of high-gluten, hard wheat grain that has had all of the starch removed and is then dried. It is a highly technical process (e.g., see Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42233/topicseen.html#msg42233) and one that I would not recommend that one try at home. I might add that sometimes vital wheat gluten is referred to outside of the U.S. as "gluten flour". You might want to investigate whether VWG is sold where you live as gluten flour. If you can locate gluten flour, you will want to note the percent of protein for that product.

As I previously mentioned, it is very difficult to design specific characteristics into a finished crust. Terms like "soft", "chewy", "crispy" and, "bread-like" can have different meanings to different people. Also, without seeing or sampling a pizza such as you purchase from your local pizzeria, it is hard to know what benchmark you are using against which to compare your pizzas. If you can post some photos of a typical pizza purchased from your local pizzeria, including photos of a slice on edge to gauge the thickness and crumb texture and one of the bottom of a typical slice to get a sense of the degree of bottom crust browning, that might at least give us some idea of what we are benchmarking against.

The above notwithstanding, I have a few additional ideas that you might consider for the next dough batch. Once you reply on the matter of the semolina flour and gluten flour, I will pass on those ideas.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 11:40:43 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline MWTC

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2008, 11:04:04 AM »
I have found that the elimination of the Dry Milk will make the pizza dough more chewy.

Try eliminating the Dry Milk and then add it back just a little each time to see the effect and to determine if it adds to what you are looking for.

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2008, 11:16:06 AM »
I left out the Dry milk completely.


MWTC,

You will note from the above quote that Cinnamos already eliminated the dry milk.

Peter

Offline MWTC

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2008, 11:27:58 AM »
OOPS, missed that !!!

My bad.  :-[

Continue on.  ::)

 8)

 ;D

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2008, 03:52:43 AM »
Hi Guys

I have searched High and Low for Vital Wheat Gluten again this week. I then searched around for Gluten Flour as you suggested. No luck. I have contacted one last hope of mine to see if they can help me find what I am looking for but haven't yet received a reply. For now lets move on to an alternative.

Semolina flour on the other hand is very easily available and accessible. I checked the semolina flour Protein and it is 10 Grams per 100 Gram so I assume that is 10%. Just one question, How is gluten calculated? Is it worked about using the protein % or some other way?

And lastly and most oddly the Branch of the local pizzaria closest to me actually closed down this month. Its been a bit of a while since I was last there and I thought I'd pop in and buy the pizza so I can take some pictures of it and send it to you and then just got one big surprise when i found them not longer there. Cant understand why because they had a great product? Never the less my adventure on duplicating they pizza has just become a little more difficult but I aint giving up just yet. I will make sure I Clone it.

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards
Cinnamos
Regards Mo

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2008, 11:11:12 AM »
Cinnamos,

Seeing that you eliminated the dry milk powder from the dough formulation you used, I revisited the dough ingredients list for the pan pizza doughs that Pizza Hut now uses in the U.S. As previously noted, PH now uses mainly frozen doughs for its pan pizzas. The only dairy product now used by PH is dairy whey, which I suspect is used more for crust coloration than anything else. PH also uses vital wheat gluten, and ascorbic acid, which I suspect is used as a dough strengthener and as a substitute for potassium bromate (more on this below).

In your case, there are several options. Since you have access to semolina flour, you can replace part of the formula flour with semolina flour. In the U.S., semolina flour has a protein content of about 12-13%. If you decide to use semolina flour, I would use about 10-15% of the formula flour as semolina flour. You can always adjust the amount of the semolina flour based on your preliminary results. You may also find that the chewiness that the semolina flour produces is not the type of "chewiness" you are after. Most commercial pizzerias do not use semolina flour, so your tastebuds may not have become acclimated to semolina flour in the dough. I would not worry about how the gluten content of the semolina flour is calculated. No doubt it is done using specialized instrumentation. Also, the amount of semolina flour you would be using shouldn't materially affect the final protein content of the flour blend you use. If semolina flour solves your problems with chewiness, we can always reconstruct the total effective protein content for the blend.

Another possibility is to use a different dough formulation. I recently came across a pan pizza dough formulation posted at the PMQ Think Tank forum by Tom Lehmann, Director of Bakery Assistance at the American Institute of Baking and an acknowledged expert in pizza dough. The Lehmann dough formulation appears in the thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=37687#37687. If you decide to give that dough formulation a try, I would be inclined to increase the hydration a few percent, maybe to about 58-60%. Also, I would reduce the amount of yeast by half and use a fermentation of about 3 days. I would shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F., which may require that you use cold water. The longer fermentation should produce a less bread-like crust and crumb. I normally don't advocate that members use bromated flours, but a bromated flour does produce a stronger dough that better retains its volume during the final proof, which is a core process used for pan doughs. In lieu of using a bromated flour, you could add a pinch of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) to the dough ingredients. This is a common substitute for those who do not want to use bromated flours. The advantage of the Lehmann pan dough formulation is that it is basic and can serve as a good starting point from which to make further adjustments based on your own results. If I had attempted to devise a pan dough formulation from scratch, it would have looked a lot like Tom's but for the hydration and the yeast quantity and the period of fermentation of the dough, as mentioned above.

For the benefit of others who may wish to offer advice to you on this matter, the link to the pizzeria whose product you are attempting to clone is http://www.romanspizza.co.za/home.html. This is the link you provided to me via PM.

Peter



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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2008, 05:05:28 AM »
Hi Pete
With regards to use of semolina flour, is it possible to recalculate the recipe for me using a 8 Inch Pan using IDY. Also exclude the dry milk from the formula.

Also I was just wondering whether my oven could have anything to do with my Pizza not coming out as chewy as I want it to be. Could this be a cause in any way? This is the specs of the stove I have. http://www.defy.co.za/product.asp?pageId=1&cateId=1&subcateId=1&prodId=5

On my previous attempt, I did not allow my Pizza to come down to room temp. Would this be better to do next time or is it Ok to just take it out of the fridge and place it directly in a preheated oven.

I read through Toms recipe and find it very similar to the one you gave me. What are the major differences between his and yours?

As you asked me before to post pictures of the pizza from Romans, and since I no longer have access to it, I was wondering if some one could post pictures of an original Pan Pizza direct from Pizza Hut. This way I could have a look at those pictures and inform you as to whether it is the texture and look that I want or if it is different. As i said previously I tasted Pizza Hut a very very long time ago so I cant really remember if it is the same as Romans.

Including photos of a slice on edge to gauge the thickness and crumb texture and one of the bottom of a typical slice to get a sense of the degree of bottom crust browning, that might at least give us some idea of what we are benchmarking against.

Peter

I believe that there is a recipe for a Roman Style Pizza. Do you thing this could be the secret in which the local pizzeria I buy from uses thus the name Romans Pizza?

Lastly, I know this is a long shot question but If I can get my hands on some Whole Wheat, is it possible to make use of it and increase the chewiness of my dough maybe by using this wheat in some way or the other.

If all of the above don't solve my problem do u thing there are any other alternatives or will the only thing that will help is gluten.

Looking forward to hearing from you
Regards
Regards Mo

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2008, 09:30:21 AM »
Cinnamos,

I don’t know what kind of ovens Roman’s Pizza is using, but Pizza Hut uses air impingement conveyor ovens. Air impingement conveyor ovens work differently than standard home ovens, so in your case you may have to experiment with your particular oven to get the desired results. Even then, because of the different oven configurations and designs, it is unlikely that you will replicate the kind of bake that an air impingement conveyor oven produces. Also, in your case, you may have to bake the pizza longer than usual because the temperature range of your oven is 70-230 degrees C, or 158-446 degrees F. If I had to guess, I would say that PH uses a bake temperature of around 475 degrees F (246 degrees C).

For a photo of a typical PH pan pizza, you might go to http://www.pizzahut.com/Menu.aspx?tab=signatureCrusts and click on the View Larger Image link. You might also do a YouTube search. A couple of examples that I found after a quick search are PH commercials at and . The commercials are old ones and were for the original PH pan pizza when PH used fresh dough, but they might give you an idea as to the general nature of the PH pan pizza. I usually don’t pay too much attention to photos of pizza chain pizzas because they are professionally done and usually don’t look like the pizzas actually sold in their stores.

I tend to doubt that there is a connection between the Roman Pizza name and the type of dough recipe used by Roman Pizza. I believe that a “Roman” pizza is a pizza with an ultra-thin, cracker-like crust.

I am not sure what you mean by “I did not allow my Pizza to come to room temperature”. However, it is possible to dress the pizza while the dough is cold and then bake it. Some PH stores do that because it is easier to spread the sauce on a cold dough than on a warm, proofed dough, which can be quite soft.

Tom Lehmann’s pan pizza dough recipe differs from the one we started with in that it does not call for any dry milk powder. Also, it calls for more salt. The way that the dough is prepared is also different in that the dough is proofed after cold fermentation rather than before. For a slightly different Lehmann version of a pan pizza dough, see this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2906.msg25146/topicseen.html#msg25146 (Reply 7). As previously noted with respect to the first Lehmann recipe I referenced, I would use a higher hydration, less yeast, and a longer fermentation.

Using whole wheat flour will increase the chewiness of the finished crust but it will alter the flavor and it may introduce other problems and challenges. Unless you know for sure that Roman Pizza is using whole wheat flour, I would not do it. As to whether there are other alternatives for you to consider, it is too early to say without seeing the results of your next attempt to clone the Roman Pizza pan pizza.

I have set forth below the updated dough formulation you requested, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. For the latest iteration, I replaced 15% of the bread flour with semolina flour. You will also note that I increased the amount of salt, which you found to be too little for your taste buds. Next time, I will let you take a stab at using the dough calculating tools at the forum since that is the best way for you to learn.

Bread Flour* (100%):
Water (55.555%):
IDY (0.88885%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4.27199%):
Sugar (1.875%):
Total (164.34084%):
126.07 g  |  4.45 oz | 0.28 lbs
70.04 g  |  2.47 oz | 0.15 lbs
1.12 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
2.21 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
5.39 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.19 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
2.36 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
207.18 g | 7.31 oz | 0.46 lbs | TF = N/A
*Use 107.16 g. (3.78 oz.) bread flour and 18.91 g. (0.67 oz.) semolina flour;
Note: Bowl residue compensation is 1.5% (the nominal dough weight = 7.2 oz.)

Peter

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2008, 11:00:27 AM »
Hi Pete
Thanks so much for all the help

Regarding my oven, what temperature do I set it to and how long do u suggest I bake the pizza for based upon the specs of my oven. Also I have a Pizza Stone. How long do I need to preheat my oven using my pizza stone before I put the pizza inside.

I had a look at those videos and based upon the pizza seen in those videos, I guess I would have to say its more or less what I'm looking for. In terms of taste I can't really say.

I am not sure what you mean by “I did not allow my Pizza to come to room temperature”. However, it is possible to dress the pizza while the dough is cold and then bake it. Some PH stores do that because it is easier to spread the sauce on a cold dough than on a warm, proofed dough, which can be quite soft.

With regard to the quote above, I meant that when I placed the pizza in the fridge for a total of 24Hrs, and it was time to bake I took the Pizza out the fridge, Dressed it in a matter of 2-3 minutes and pushed it in the oven. Do you think that when I took it out of the fridge and dressed it, I should have left it a little while outside at room temp and then inser it into my oven? Would this make any significant difference to the way the crust would be?

The way that the dough is prepared is also different in that the dough is proofed after cold fermentation rather than before.

With regards to the above quote, what is meant by proofed after cold fermentation? My understanding of that is all the ingredients are mixed, the dough ball is formed rolled and placed into the pans and immediately put into a fridge/cooler. Then it is taken out before dressing and baking, allowed to rise for about 1/2 hour and then dressed and baked. Please do correct me if my understanding is incorrect?

While on the topic of proofing, the norm that I did with my attempt is once all the ingredients were mixed and the dough ball was formed, I rolled and placed it in the pan and allowed to rise(proof) for approx 1 hour before placing it in the fridge. Is this too long for the dough to rise or is it fine?

Also I have seen the ffg post : http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2906.msg25146/topicseen.html#msg25146 and I noticed that they mention to mix all the ingredients and then wipe the dough ball with oil. What is meant by this and am I correct in mixing the oil with all the ingredients as I have previously done.

And lastly I definately need to learn how to use the Dough Calculator. I did try once before but failed so on my next attempt, could you possible guide me through the process so I would learn.

Looking forward to hearing from you
Cinnamos
Regards Mo

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2008, 12:20:43 PM »
Cinnamos,

The recipe you have been using calls for baking the pizza for 14 minutes on a pizza stone that has been preheated for about 30-45 minutes at 500 degrees F (260 degrees C). Since your oven apparently can’t get that high, I would preheat your stone at the highest temperature your oven will produce, for about an hour. From that point on, once the pizza starts to bake I would wait until the top crust has the desired coloration, and then remove the pizza from the oven. In your case, with less dough and a smaller pan, you shouldn’t need 14 minutes of baking. I am not an expert on ovens in general, so you will have to do some experimentation to get the desired results with your particular oven. In the U.S., just about all standard home ovens routinely bake at temperatures of at least 500 degrees F.

The way you baked your pizza is the way that is called for by the recipe you used (http://www.pizzamaking.com/panpizza.php). If you go back and reread the Lehmann pan pizza dough recipe (either version), you will see that the dough is allowed to proof after it is removed from the refrigerator and formed into a skin that is placed in the pan. To “proof” the skin means to let it rise in the pan for a specified period of time, usually in a humidified environment. Professionals use specialized proofing equipment that warms up the dough with humidity for a specified time. I can’t tell you exactly how long to proof your dough in a typical room temperature environment where you are, but I think I would proof the skin for about 30-45 minutes. Proofing the skin just before using will result in a softer, warmer skin. The main difference between the two approaches is that a warm skin is far less likely than a cold skin to lead to excessive bubbling in the finished crust. Tom Lehmann is a stickler about using warm dough and that is why his dough management is different from the way that PH apparently does it for its fresh doughs. From what I have read, at PH the skins in the pans are dressed cold and then baked. There is no warm-up of its fresh doughs before dressing and baking. If you carefully re-read the recipe you used and Tom’s two recipes, you will see that the dough preparation and management are really different. I can’t tell you which method--PH’s or Tom’s--is better. That is something you may want to experiment with to see which method produces the better results from your perspective.

To “wipe” a dough ball means to coat the dough ball with a small amount of oil—just enough to keep a skin from forming on the dough ball. Professionals often use spray bottles to coat the dough balls with oil but you can simply use your fingers or a pastry brush to coat the dough ball with oil. The oil called for by the recipe you used is intended to be part of the finished dough, as you did, although some people use a portion of the formula oil to coat the dough ball on the theory that it is ultimately worked into the dough when it is shaped into a skin.

When you decide to make another version of the dough, I will walk you through the dough calculating tool.

Peter

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2008, 10:15:37 AM »
Cinnamos,

I don't mean to derail you from your present efforts, but I saw an interesting thread recently at the PMQ Think Tank forum, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=6144&sid=ac23967132204a2e42442753685ab2eb, where a member asked others what ingredients to use to achieve a "melt in your mouth" effect. I don't know if that is the effect you are after, but if so you may want to take a look at Tom Lehmann's post in that thread (http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=38363#38363) in which he discusses using par-baking as a means for achieving that objective. The recipe with respect to which Tom gives his advice is the one at
http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=54. You will see that that recipe bears several similarities to the two other Lehmann recipes I referenced earlier in this thread.

Tom's post also reminded me of another suggestion he made some time ago to achieve a "cotton candy" effect in the finished crust, specifically, by using potato flour. I copied and pasted his suggestion into a post on this forum, at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1483.msg15851/topicseen.html#msg15851.

You might want to file the above suggestions in a "to do" file should your future efforts prove unsuccessful.

Peter

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2008, 11:15:20 AM »
Hi Pete

I am gonna attempt this recipe for the second time later tonight. I thought I would run you through the method I will be using so u could advice me on any additional steps I should do or to look out for, and correct any of my errors.

1) I will start by boiling water and then leave it till it is completely cool. Possibly will be as cool as my kitchen is so what I am saying is I will be using boiled water that is at room temperature.
2) Add my Flour + Semolina to the water and autolyse. Must I add all of the flour + Semolina asked for in this recipe and then autolyse? Should I use my mixer to mix the flour with the water or just throw the flour into the bowl of my water and leave to rest?
3) Then add Salt and Sugar and mix with flour.
4) Add my Yeast to the flour.
5) At this stage I am assuming my dough will be loose and scrappy. I will lastly add oil bit by bit while Hand Kneading the dough for approx 10 Minutes and this should form a smooth cohesive ball.
6) Roll the dough to my desired size and place it in the pan which will have oil in it already.
7) I will then place the pan into an airtight packet and put it in the fridge for about 48 Hrs.
8) After 48Hrs I will take out from the fridge, leave outside for about 1/2 and hour for it to warm up and allow it to come to room temp.
9) Add my sauce, Topping and place into a pre heated oven (240 Degrees) for about 10 Minutes or so. I will periodically check it to see if it is done.
That should complete my whole process.

I was also wondering that if I should leave the dough ball created in step 5 in a air tight packaging and leave in the fridge. Then After 48Hrs in the fridge, take out, roll to my desired size and place in the pan for about 45 Minutes so warm up and rise.  Any suggestions would be great.

Gonna read on more about that ? asked to tom Lehman regarding the melt in your mouth dough and see what I can come up with.

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards
Cinnamos
Regards Mo

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2008, 12:39:57 PM »
Cinnamos,

I will respond to your questions and methods using your numerical sequence:

1) to 5): Unless your water is suspect, I would not bother boiling it. I would use water either at room temperature or cold water (e.g., bottled water) from the refrigerator. I personally don't see any need to autolyse the dough. One of the common results of using an autolyse is a bread-like crumb in the finished crust. That is something that I thought you wanted to avoid. If I am wrong on this, then there is no harm in using the autolyse. I personally would make the dough in the following manner: a) combine the flour, semolina flour and IDY; b) put the water into the mixer bowl, add the salt and sugar, and stir to dissolve (about 30 seconds); c) add the oil to the mixer bowl (alternatively, the oil can be added after step e) below, which is Tom Lehmann's preferred method); d) using the flat beater attachment, and operating at stir speed, gradually add the IDY/flour/semolina flour blend to the mixer bowl by a few tablespoons at a time, and mix until the dough mass clears the sides of the bowl and gathers around the flat beater attachment (this should take about 1 minute and you may need to use a spatula to direct the flour blend into the path of the flat beater attachment); e) remove the dough mass from the flat beater attachment and switch to the C-hook (or spiral hook, if available); f) if the oil was not previously added to the mixer bowl, add it to the dough in the bowl at this time; g) using speed 2, knead the dough until is is smooth and cohesive (this should take about 4-5 minutes for the amount of dough involved); h) remove the dough ball from the mixer bowl and knead by hand for about 30 seconds to be sure that it is in proper condition (smooth and cohesive); i) let the dough relax for about 10-15 minutes before rolling out (to make the dough easier to roll out).

8) There is no need to allow the dough to come to room temperature. The dough should be allowed to warm up at room temperature. Sixty to ninety minutes warm-up time should be sufficient unless your kitchen is really cool. As previously noted, Pizza Hut skips the warming-up step and dresses the dough cold.

As an alternative to rolling out the dough after step 5), you can take the dough ball, lightly oil it, place it into a storage container, put it into the refrigerator and, after 48 hours, let it warm up at room temperature, roll it out to fit the pan, proof it, and then dress and bake it. This is the Lehmann preferred method, not the Pizza Hut method. As previously noted, you might want to experiment with both methods to see which produces the better results from your perspective.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 06:22:11 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2008, 05:58:57 AM »
Hi Pete
I didn't get a chance to mess around with the recipe Last Night but definately will do tonight.

Thanks for clarifying what autolyse does and definately I am not looking for a bread like texture.

I like your method and will be using it. I feel that rolling out the dough, placing it in the pan and then in the fridge will work for me. Do you in you own personal opinion think there would be any noticeable difference in the texture of the final baked pizza if I use Lehmans method of keeping it as a dough ball in the fridge and rolling it out just before baking time?

With regards to the "melt in your mouth effect", that is exactly what I am looking for. Thats the perfect description of how the Romans pizza is. I am definately going to give it a try. Only problem is I dont think we have potatoe flour available. Whats an alternative?

Btw gonna try and take some pics of every step this time round. Wish me luck guys

Regards
Cinnamos
Regards Mo