Pan Pizza Soft & Light Recipe

[Pete-zza]

Cinnamos,

The recipe you have been using calls for baking the pizza for 14 minutes on a pizza stone that has been preheated for about 30-45 minutes at 500 degrees F (260 degrees C). Since your oven apparently can’t get that high, I would preheat your stone at the highest temperature your oven will produce, for about an hour. From that point on, once the pizza starts to bake I would wait until the top crust has the desired coloration, and then remove the pizza from the oven. In your case, with less dough and a smaller pan, you shouldn’t need 14 minutes of baking. I am not an expert on ovens in general, so you will have to do some experimentation to get the desired results with your particular oven. In the U.S., just about all standard home ovens routinely bake at temperatures of at least 500 degrees F.

The way you baked your pizza is the way that is called for by the recipe you used (http://www.pizzamaking.com/panpizza.php). If you go back and reread the Lehmann pan pizza dough recipe (either version), you will see that the dough is allowed to proof after it is removed from the refrigerator and formed into a skin that is placed in the pan. To “proof” the skin means to let it rise in the pan for a specified period of time, usually in a humidified environment. Professionals use specialized proofing equipment that warms up the dough with humidity for a specified time. I can’t tell you exactly how long to proof your dough in a typical room temperature environment where you are, but I think I would proof the skin for about 30-45 minutes. Proofing the skin just before using will result in a softer, warmer skin. The main difference between the two approaches is that a warm skin is far less likely than a cold skin to lead to excessive bubbling in the finished crust. Tom Lehmann is a stickler about using warm dough and that is why his dough management is different from the way that PH apparently does it for its fresh doughs. From what I have read, at PH the skins in the pans are dressed cold and then baked. There is no warm-up of its fresh doughs before dressing and baking. If you carefully re-read the recipe you used and Tom’s two recipes, you will see that the dough preparation and management are really different. I can’t tell you which method--PH’s or Tom’s--is better. That is something you may want to experiment with to see which method produces the better results from your perspective.

To “wipe” a dough ball means to coat the dough ball with a small amount of oil—just enough to keep a skin from forming on the dough ball. Professionals often use spray bottles to coat the dough balls with oil but you can simply use your fingers or a pastry brush to coat the dough ball with oil. The oil called for by the recipe you used is intended to be part of the finished dough, as you did, although some people use a portion of the formula oil to coat the dough ball on the theory that it is ultimately worked into the dough when it is shaped into a skin.

When you decide to make another version of the dough, I will walk you through the dough calculating tool.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Cinnamos,

I don't mean to derail you from your present efforts, but I saw an interesting thread recently at the PMQ Think Tank forum, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=6144&sid=ac23967132204a2e42442753685ab2eb, where a member asked others what ingredients to use to achieve a "melt in your mouth" effect. I don't know if that is the effect you are after, but if so you may want to take a look at Tom Lehmann's post in that thread (http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=38363#38363) in which he discusses using par-baking as a means for achieving that objective. The recipe with respect to which Tom gives his advice is the one at
http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=54. You will see that that recipe bears several similarities to the two other Lehmann recipes I referenced earlier in this thread.

Tom's post also reminded me of another suggestion he made some time ago to achieve a "cotton candy" effect in the finished crust, specifically, by using potato flour. I copied and pasted his suggestion into a post on this forum, at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1483.msg15851/topicseen.html#msg15851.

You might want to file the above suggestions in a "to do" file should your future efforts prove unsuccessful.

Peter

[PizzaManic]

Hi Pete

I am gonna attempt this recipe for the second time later tonight. I thought I would run you through the method I will be using so u could advice me on any additional steps I should do or to look out for, and correct any of my errors.

1) I will start by boiling water and then leave it till it is completely cool. Possibly will be as cool as my kitchen is so what I am saying is I will be using boiled water that is at room temperature.
2) Add my Flour + Semolina to the water and autolyse. Must I add all of the flour + Semolina asked for in this recipe and then autolyse? Should I use my mixer to mix the flour with the water or just throw the flour into the bowl of my water and leave to rest?
3) Then add Salt and Sugar and mix with flour.
4) Add my Yeast to the flour.
5) At this stage I am assuming my dough will be loose and scrappy. I will lastly add oil bit by bit while Hand Kneading the dough for approx 10 Minutes and this should form a smooth cohesive ball.
6) Roll the dough to my desired size and place it in the pan which will have oil in it already.
7) I will then place the pan into an airtight packet and put it in the fridge for about 48 Hrs.
After 48Hrs I will take out from the fridge, leave outside for about 1/2 and hour for it to warm up and allow it to come to room temp.
9) Add my sauce, Topping and place into a pre heated oven (240 Degrees) for about 10 Minutes or so. I will periodically check it to see if it is done.
That should complete my whole process.

I was also wondering that if I should leave the dough ball created in step 5 in a air tight packaging and leave in the fridge. Then After 48Hrs in the fridge, take out, roll to my desired size and place in the pan for about 45 Minutes so warm up and rise.  Any suggestions would be great.

Gonna read on more about that ? asked to tom Lehman regarding the melt in your mouth dough and see what I can come up with.

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards
Cinnamos

[Pete-zza]

Cinnamos,

I will respond to your questions and methods using your numerical sequence:

1) to 5): Unless your water is suspect, I would not bother boiling it. I would use water either at room temperature or cold water (e.g., bottled water) from the refrigerator. I personally don't see any need to autolyse the dough. One of the common results of using an autolyse is a bread-like crumb in the finished crust. That is something that I thought you wanted to avoid. If I am wrong on this, then there is no harm in using the autolyse. I personally would make the dough in the following manner: a) combine the flour, semolina flour and IDY; b) put the water into the mixer bowl, add the salt and sugar, and stir to dissolve (about 30 seconds); c) add the oil to the mixer bowl (alternatively, the oil can be added after step e) below, which is Tom Lehmann's preferred method); d) using the flat beater attachment, and operating at stir speed, gradually add the IDY/flour/semolina flour blend to the mixer bowl by a few tablespoons at a time, and mix until the dough mass clears the sides of the bowl and gathers around the flat beater attachment (this should take about 1 minute and you may need to use a spatula to direct the flour blend into the path of the flat beater attachment); e) remove the dough mass from the flat beater attachment and switch to the C-hook (or spiral hook, if available); f) if the oil was not previously added to the mixer bowl, add it to the dough in the bowl at this time; g) using speed 2, knead the dough until is is smooth and cohesive (this should take about 4-5 minutes for the amount of dough involved); h) remove the dough ball from the mixer bowl and knead by hand for about 30 seconds to be sure that it is in proper condition (smooth and cohesive); i) let the dough relax for about 10-15 minutes before rolling out (to make the dough easier to roll out).

8) There is no need to allow the dough to come to room temperature. The dough should be allowed to warm up at room temperature. Sixty to ninety minutes warm-up time should be sufficient unless your kitchen is really cool. As previously noted, Pizza Hut skips the warming-up step and dresses the dough cold.

As an alternative to rolling out the dough after step 5), you can take the dough ball, lightly oil it, place it into a storage container, put it into the refrigerator and, after 48 hours, let it warm up at room temperature, roll it out to fit the pan, proof it, and then dress and bake it. This is the Lehmann preferred method, not the Pizza Hut method. As previously noted, you might want to experiment with both methods to see which produces the better results from your perspective.

Peter

[PizzaManic]

Hi Pete
I didn't get a chance to mess around with the recipe Last Night but definately will do tonight.

Thanks for clarifying what autolyse does and definately I am not looking for a bread like texture.

I like your method and will be using it. I feel that rolling out the dough, placing it in the pan and then in the fridge will work for me. Do you in you own personal opinion think there would be any noticeable difference in the texture of the final baked pizza if I use Lehmans method of keeping it as a dough ball in the fridge and rolling it out just before baking time?

With regards to the "melt in your mouth effect", that is exactly what I am looking for. Thats the perfect description of how the Romans pizza is. I am definately going to give it a try. Only problem is I dont think we have potatoe flour available. Whats an alternative?

Btw gonna try and take some pics of every step this time round. Wish me luck guys

Regards
Cinnamos

[Pete-zza]

Do you in you own personal opinion think there would be any noticeable difference in the texture of the final baked pizza if I use Lehmans method of keeping it as a dough ball in the fridge and rolling it out just before baking time?

Cinnamos,

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on the two methods, especially since I have not tried the recipe or either method. If I were to try the recipe, I think I would try the Pizza Hut method first, then the Lehmann method for comparison purposes.

As for a substitute for potato flour, there is perhaps a way to use fresh potatoes but I would have to give some thought to how much to use and how to implement it in whatever recipe you settle on. You might also be able to use potato flakes in some form.

Peter

[PizzaManic]

Hi Pete
I hope u are good?

I finally got down to attempting this recipe again this weekend and I have to say you have really helped me in improving it from what is was to what I currently have it at. Anyways here is how things went.

1) I started with using cold water straight from my tap as u suggested. I added sugar and salt to the water and mixed with my hand held mixer using the beater attachment. I have attached an image below of how my beater attachment looks. Is it the correct attachment to use for this step?

2) While the water, salt and sugar lay together, i mixed the Flour, Semolina and yeast in a separate bowl. I used a spoon to mix it together.

3) I then took the flour mixture and tablespoon by tablespoon, I added it to the water mixture while using the beater attachment (Same one I used in step 1) to stir in the flour with the water. I have to say this was quite a messy step because the bowl that the water was lying in was quite shallow so the flour messed the kitchen a bit. The next time, I will use a more deeper bowl. Eventually I added all of the flour to the water mixture and now had loose scrappy dough.

4) I then attached my dough hooks (Picture of dough hooks attached) to my mixer and tried and note the word tried to add in my oil a little bit at a time while mixing the dough with my mixer. I failed at this stage because of the damn shallow bowl i used. So what I did was cleaned of whatever dough got stuck to the dough hooks and used my hand to knead the dough while adding in the oil. I kneaded for about 5-6 Minutes. Once I was done I have a nice neat but a slightly rough and cohesive dough ball. I dabbed my fingers in a little oil and patted the dough ball to give it a nice moist look. I let it rest in the bowl covered with a large plate for about 15 minutes. I then placed it on my scale and it weighed exactly 7.27 OZ.

5) I then placed the dough ball on a flat surface and rolled it out to just over 7 Inches. I oiled my pan with just enough to cover the bottom and then placed the rolled out dough in it and stretched the dough slightly to meet the ends of the pan. I placed the pan in a tightly sealed packet and put it straight into the fridge.

6) Exactly 32 Hrs later (Sorry but i just couldn't wait 48Hrs, cause we didn't know what to eat so thought we would have the pizza) I took it out of the fridge and noticed that it rose but at the same time it had bubble here and there. I left it outside, still covered with the packet at room temperature while I placed my baking stone in my oven and preheated on 240 Degrees Celsius for about 40 Minutes. The light for my oven went of after 35 minutes so that told me that it now had reached that temp. I just left it for another 5 mins so it would settle. I then quickly dressed my pizza and shoved the pan into my oven. I set my timer for 10 minutes and checked it thereafter to see if it was done. The underneath was nicely crisped and the top of the pizza had looked done to me so I left it for another 2 minutes before taking it out. One note, is that the cheese got rubbery and hard due to it being so long in the oven.

7) Now came the main test. I cut the pie while it was boiling hot (I know I'm really impatient) and found that it was extremely soft just the way I want it to be. I would want to increase on the chewiness. The bread like feature of the crust was hardly there. I would say it was about 10% bread like. The underneath was crisped perfectly. I loved that part. I inside was absolutely light and fluffy. I found only one problem. Certain parts of the pizza were very doughy as if it didn't bake correctly. The dough in those areas were actually unbaked. Any suggestions on how I can avoid this the next time round.

My honest opinion is I have come pretty close to what i desire. Its not a romans pizza but maybe even better with different characteristics than what romans has. In terms of the Crust Texture I would say I am 85% there. Just need to increase the chewiness a bit more and make sure the pizza is baked fully. In terms of the taste, I would give it a 9/10. Salt was perfect and has a nice flavor to it. In terms of the crust I would say 10/10 for that one. It was just right.

Something just came to mind now. On my next attempt I would like to try 4-5 different Recipes/Methods. I borrowed some pans and have a total of about 5. Thought I would make all these pizza bases, allow it to cold ferment or whatever instructions that recipe had attached to it and then bake it without dressing it. I am focusing more on perfecting the Inside Texture of the pizza rather than the taste for now. Once I have perfected it and settle on the correct recipe, I will work on improving the taste if there is anything wrong with it. My question is does the dressing on the pizza for e.g cheese as well as the oil used in the pan have an effect of the Inside Texture of the Pizza in terms of chewiness and many other characteristics I have explained previously. I will just basically taste each attempt to see if the texture is correct. I know its not a pizza by doing this but it will help speed my experiments up cause I am so excited and impatient that I feel this will help me in my adventure to make the perfect pizza.

Anyways looking forward to you comments and by the way my camera on my phone was just not clear enough so for my next attempts I am going to be using a friends hi powered camera

Regards
Cinnamos

[Pete-zza]

Cinnamos,

I am glad to hear that you have been making real progress.

It appears that you have a stand mixer that is much different than mine. The attachments for my basic KitchenAid stand mixer are shown in the photo at the end of Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33252.html#msg33252. The flat beater attachment is the one shown in the middle of the photo. The tool that I use to stir ingredients like salt and sugar in the water in the mixer bowl is the flat, flexible, plastic spatula shown at the bottom of the photo. I never use the mixer attachments to stir salt or sugar in the water. You can use just about any implement to do this, including a wooden spoon or ordinary tablespoon.

In terms of getting increased chewiness in the finished crust, you might try increasing the amount of semolina flour. You used 15%. You might try increasing it to 20-25% to see if that does the trick. You might also get increased chewiness by using a longer fermentation time, which can affect the texture of the finished crumb and crust and create a more pronounced chewiness effect.

The problem with unbaked or underbaked dough may require further experimentation. The cheese and toppings compete with the crust for oven heat, so if you use too much cheese and too many toppings with a fairly thick dough, it is possible that parts of the crust will be underbaked. One possible solution is to pre-bake the skin and then add the cheese and toppings before finishing the baking. That will also have the added benefit of letting the cheese cook without becoming rubbery or tough because of the shorter overall bake time for the cheese. If you elect not to pre-bake the crust and decide to dress the skin in the normal manner, you might try using the shredded cheese in cold form, as by shredding the cheese about an hour before you plan to make the pizza, putting it in the refrigerator, and removing it from the refrigerator just as you are about to dress the pizza. The cold cheese will withstand the oven heat better and not overcook or become rubbery. It will also retain more of its original light and creamy color. I did this recently with a NY style pizza, which you can see by going to Reply 721 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg62457.html#msg62457. Using the cheese in cold form, you might also be able to bake the entire pizza longer to allow the dough to become fully cooked. If that doesn't work well with the oven temperature you have been using, you can try using a lower oven temperature and a longer bake time, which should give more time for the dough to dry out and bake more completely.

I do not believe that the amount of oil in the pan will materially affect the interior crumb of the finished crust. So, I would not change that at this point if you are happy with the results you got with your last effort.

Peter

[PizzaManic]

Hi Pete
Like always, you give great tips.

I will take these points into consideration in my next attempts.

As I said in my previous reply, I would like to try different deep pan recipes and you are the only guy I know that can point me in the right direction. I know of the one you gave me using potato flour by Tom Lehman. Can you put together 2 other recipes for me including the one with the potato flour and I will attempt all of these in a single day.Also if possible include a alternative way for me to use potato as I doubt I would able to get Potato Flour. I have a total of about 5 Pans. What I will do is use 3 of these pans to make those recipes that you give me and the other pan I will make the recipe I used last but will just increase the Semolina and leave it for a longer fermentation. The last pan, well I will just have to think of what I am going to do with this one.

When I make these pizzas and its time for me to bake it, I will not be adding any cheese or toppings whatsoever. I will just be baking the base only and then taste it to compare each base and see which one is the best (I am going to be documenting each and every step for each and every recipe so its easier for my comparison and also it will assist me in perfecting it later)
The reason is I am experimenting and for me to top so many pizza's in one day and not eat it will be a waste of money. Maybe what i will do is after it is baked I will freeze it for use at a later stage. My concern is will the inside texture of the pizza be affected if I don't top it with sauce or cheese as well as don't place it in a well oiled pan. I would probably just dab my pan with oil so the base doesn't stick but I wont use as much oil as it called for.

Looking forward to hearing from you soon
Regards
Cinnamos

[Pete-zza]

Cinnamos,

It wasn’t clear to me which specific recipes you want, so I created several based on our prior exchanges. I have numbered the recipes for convenience and for future reference.

Recipe #1 is the same as you last used but using 25% semolina flour.

Recipes #2 and #3 are two versions of the Lehmann pan dough formulation referenced earlier in this thread. Recipe #2 is the Lehmann formulation as he gave it at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=37687#37687. Recipe #3 increases the hydration to produce a more open and airy crust and crumb and reduces the amount of yeast so that you can achieve 2-3 days of cold fermentation rather than one day.

Recipes #4 and #5 are my interpretation on how the original dough formulation given at Reply 18 in this thread (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6984.msg62346.html#msg62346) might be modified to use potato flour based on Tom Lehmann’s comments as noted at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1483.msg15851/topicseen.html#msg15851. I have never seen an actual Lehmann dough formulation using potato flour and baker’s percents, so I had to use my best efforts to translate his comments into a dough formulation. This posed some problems since Tom does not say whether he modifies an existing dough formulation so that the total dough weight remains constant or whether he simply adds and subtracts from an existing formulation, which can have the effect of increasing or decreasing the total dough weight. Consequently, I came up with two potato flour dough formulations to cover both cases. Recipe #5 produces more dough than Recipe 4 so you may have to trim back the weight of the dough from Recipe 4 to get it to around 7.2 ounces. If you ever find and use potato flour, you will have to do some experimenting to see which of the two recipes is the better version. Fortunately, the differences aren’t dramatic, so both formulations may work.

Recipe #6 is for a dough formulation that uses a real potato. The potato is microwaved with the skin on, peeled, and then mashed. I used the nutrition data from nutritiondata.com at http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2559/2 to modify the original dough formulation to incorporate the potato. I have no idea as to whether the dough formulation will work, or how well. I will leave that to you to determine. I used 32% real potato in the dough formulation based on some recipes that I reviewed for doughs using potato. There are many types of potatoes, with different water contents, so you may find it necessary to tweak the hydration to get the dough to the desired condition. If such changes are needed, you may want to note the details of those changes so that they can be incorporated into future versions if warranted.

Recipe #7 is similar to Recipe #6 except that it calls for using a raw potato that has been grated, including the skin. I used the nutrition data at http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2546/2 in creating Recipe #7. I have never used raw potato in a dough, so you will have to tell us if it works should you decide to try Recipe #7. Raw potatoes tend to turn dark with exposure to the air, but that may not happen if it is promptly incorporated into the dough. As with Recipe #6, some hydration adjustments may be needed.

Here are the recipes:

25% Semolina Pan Dough Formulation -#1

Flour Blend* (100%): Water (55.555%): IDY (0.88885%): Salt (1.75%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4.27199%): Sugar (1.875%): Total (164.34084%):

126.07 g  |  4.45 oz | 0.28 lbs 70.04 g  |  2.47 oz | 0.15 lbs 1.12 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp 2.21 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp 5.39 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.19 tsp | 0.4 tbsp 2.36 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp 207.18 g | 7.31 oz | 0.46 lbs | TF = N/A

*Use 94.62 g. (3.34 oz.) bread flour and 31.54 g. (1.12 oz.) semolina flour
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5% (the nominal dough weight = 7.2 oz.)

Lehmann Pan Dough Formulation (from http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=37687#37687) - #2

Bread Flour (100%): Water* (55%): IDY (0.5%): Salt (1.75%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%): Sugar (2%): Total (162.25%):

127.69 g  |  4.5 oz | 0.28 lbs 70.23 g  |  2.48 oz | 0.15 lbs 0.64 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.21 tsp | 0.07 tbsp 2.23 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp 3.83 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp 2.55 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 207.18 g | 7.31 oz | 0.46 lbs | TF = N/A

* At 65 degrees F/18.3 degrees C
Note: One-day fermentation; bowl residue compensation = 1.5% (the nominal dough weight = 7.2 oz.)

Modified Lehmann Pan Dough Formulation (Increased Hydration, Reduced Yeast) - #3

Bread Flour (100%): Water* (58%): IDY (0.25%): Salt (1.75%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%): Sugar (2%): Total (165%):

125.56 g  |  4.43 oz | 0.28 lbs 72.83 g  |  2.57 oz | 0.16 lbs 0.31 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.1 tsp | 0.03 tbsp 2.2 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp 3.77 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.83 tsp | 0.28 tbsp 2.51 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 207.18 g | 7.31 oz | 0.46 lbs | TF = N/A

* At 65 degrees F/18.3 degrees C
Note: Three-day fermentation; bowl residue compensation = 1.5% (the nominal dough weight = 7.2 oz.)

5% Potato Flour Pan Dough Formulation - #4

Bread Flour (100%): Water (59.555%): IDY (0.88885%): Salt (1.75%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4.27199%): Sugar (1.5%): Potato Flour (5%): Total (172.96584%):

119.78 g  |  4.23 oz | 0.26 lbs 71.34 g  |  2.52 oz | 0.16 lbs 1.06 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp 2.1 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp 5.12 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.13 tsp | 0.38 tbsp 1.8 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp 5.99 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.58 tsp | 0.53 tbsp 207.18 g | 7.31 oz | 0.46 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5% (the nominal dough weight = 7.2 oz.); hydration increased by 4% and sugar reduced from 1.875% to 1.5%

5% Potato Flour Pan Dough Formulation - #5

Bread Flour (100%): Water (57.7787%): IDY (0.88885%): Salt (1.75%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4.27199%): Sugar (1.5%): Potato Flour (5%): Total (171.18954%):

126.07 g  |  4.45 oz | 0.28 lbs 72.84 g  |  2.57 oz | 0.16 lbs 1.12 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp 2.21 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp 5.39 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.19 tsp | 0.4 tbsp 1.89 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp 6.3 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.66 tsp | 0.55 tbsp 215.82 g | 7.61 oz | 0.48 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: Already incorporates bowl residue compensation of 1.5%

Alternative Potato Pan Dough Formulation -#6

Bread Flour (100%): Water (32.0136%): IDY (0.88885%): Salt (1.75%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4.27199%): Sugar (1.5%): Potato* (32%): Total (172.42444%):

126.07 g  |  4.45 oz | 0.28 lbs 40.36 g  |  1.42 oz | 0.09 lbs 1.12 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp 2.21 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp 5.39 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.19 tsp | 0.4 tbsp 1.89 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp 40.34 g | 1.42 oz | 0.09 lbs 217.38 g | 7.67 oz | 0.48 lbs | TF = N/A

* Microwaved potato, with skin, flesh only, mashed
Note: Already incorporates bowl residue compensation of 1.5%

Raw Grated Unpeeled Potato Pan Dough Formulation - #7

Bread Flour (100%): Water (38.1058%): IDY (0.88885%): Salt (1.75%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4.27199%): Sugar (1.5%): Grated Raw Unpeeled Potato (23.29%): Total (169.80664%):

122.01 g  |  4.3 oz | 0.27 lbs 46.49 g  |  1.64 oz | 0.1 lbs 1.08 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp 2.14 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp 5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.15 tsp | 0.38 tbsp 1.83 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp 28.42 g | 1 oz | 0.06 lbs 207.18 g | 7.31 oz | 0.46 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5% (the nominal dough weight = 7.2 g,); hydration adjusted to compensate for water content of raw grated potato, and sugar reduced from 1.875% to 1.5%

Peter

[PizzaManic]

Hi Pete
Brilliant I have to say

You have covered almost every angle
I am going to look through these recipes again and try them ASAP.
I will be sure to post back my results.

In one of your previous posts, I cant remember exactly which number, you quoted Tom Lehman saying that to Achieve a Melt In Your Mouth Pizza, he gave a few suggestions. Can you formulate that recipe to fit my Pan as well as elaborate on how the method is done with reference to Par Baking first.

This posed some problems since Tom does not say whether he modifies an existing dough formulation so that the total dough weight remains constant or whether he simply adds and subtracts from an existing formulation, which can have the effect of increasing or decreasing the total dough weight

Do you think I should pose a question to Tom regarding the above quote you made in your previous post? I could also at the same time ask him how to use the potatoe Raw and Cooked in the microwave. Maybe he would give us more insite on how he proposes we make use of potato in the dough formulation to achieve that "Melt in you Mouth effect".

Oh Yes one more thing. About me not dressing the pizza or placing it in an oiled pan, will this affect the overall texture of the inside crust causing it not to come out the way I would like for it to come out.

Looking forward to hearing from you
Regards,
Cinnamos

[Pete-zza]

Cinnamos,

There are two instances in which Tom Lehmann has discussed the “melt in your mouth”, or “cotton candy”, effect. The first is recently, at the PMQ Think Tank forum at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=38363&sid=c90ce8e8f314fb030b1ad3c142e186cb#38363, and the second, in the context of using potato in the dough, is at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1483.msg15851/topicseen.html#msg15851. In both cases, Tom recommends par-baking the crusts and using them at a later date. Typically, the final bake can occur the same day or, if the par-baked crusts are refrigerated or frozen, at a later date. I often refer to the partial baking of a crust as a “pre-bake” (as opposed to a “par bake”) if the pizza is to be dressed and subjected to the final bake immediately after pre-baking it. All of the dough formulations I gave you are already formulated for a pre-bake or par-bake. You will just have to determine how long the initial and final bakes should be, which will to a large degree depend on the amount of dough you will be making and the thicknesses and sizes (diameters) of the patties, or "bases" as you call them.  For some general background on par-baking crusts, see Reply 129 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg10061.html#msg10061. Pre-baking would be the same except that you would finish the pizza just after the dough has been pre-baked.

I suggested the use of the microwaved potato and the raw potato alternative because I thought that they would be the easiest to prepare and be closest to the potato flour form (potato flour is made by dehydrating raw potatoes, with skins) but with a higher water content. There is no reason why other forms of potatoes can’t be used, such as boiled potatoes (with or without the skins), common mashed potatoes (which will usually also include a milk product and butter or margarine), or potato flakes (which I discussed in the last paragraph of Reply 4 referenced above). In each case, however, the water content of the potato will differ and require adjusting the hydration of the dough formulation accordingly. To spare you the effort, I did this for the microwave and raw potato applications.

The way the potato is incorporated into the dough is not an issue. You just add the potato, in whatever form it takes, to the rest of the ingredients when you are making the dough. If the potatoes are wet, I think that you will find that adding them to the liquid in the mixer bowl is the easiest method to use. If the potatoes are in dry form (e.g., potato flour or potato flakes), you can add them to the rest of the dry ingredients.

If you’d like, you should feel free to communicate with Tom Lehmann on the above matters, or any other, but I should mention that Tom rarely works with baker’s percents and dough weights in the same or detailed manner that I do. He will frequently give a dough formulation in baker’s percents format but he rarely specifies dough ball weights. He will also frequently discuss changes that have to be made to an existing dough formulation to incorporate other ingredients, such as vital wheat gluten, dry milk powder, dairy whey, etc., but he almost never tells you how to do the actual mathematical changes to the dough formulation that is to be modified. He leaves that exercise to the student. If you communicate with Tom, I would simply ask him how to make a par-baked pan dough using potato in some form (including non-dry forms), and ask him to give you a formulation with the potato incorporated in it. Tom treats newbies much differently than professionals and tends to give recipes to newbies in volume format and with somewhat oversimplified instructions, so you should ask him to give you the dough formulation in baker’s percent format. FYI, Tom’s email address is tlehmann@aibonine.org. You can also register at the PMQ Think Tank forum at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewforum.php?f=6 and pose you questions there. In either case, however, you don’t want to pose your questions as an amateur home pizza maker. To get the most useful answers for our purposes, you want to come across as a professional.

Peter

[PizzaManic]

Hey Pete
Thanks for the quick response

I have been doing some thinking after reading your last response and decided not to ask Tom for advice. I have read a few of Toms posts on the Think Thank forum and you are 150% correct is saying that Toms responses to questions asked are very Vague. U are so right when u say that his responses don't give enough simplified information on the task at hand. By asking him, I think it would just confuse me. We, and by that I mean myself, are real amateurs in this field. As I said, I have read many of his posts but none of them are as detailed, simplified and to the point as to the way you give it. From where I started with this type of pizza to where it is right now is a great achievement for me and all through your help.
And again I have to give special thanks to you for taking the effort to do so.

I am going to attempt these recipes this weekend and give you my feedback and to be quite honest I find you more knowledgeable in the field of Pizza Making than Tom Lehman. Maybe I am being biased because of all the help you have offered to me but knowledge is sharing and Tom doesn't do that very well. He basically gives you the gasoline and you need to ignite the spark to get things going. On the other hand you light the flame already and all we have to do is keep adding gasoline to keep it going. What I am trying to say is your help is so detailed and simplified that if followed to the T,it just takes minor Fine tuning and tweaking to bring it to the level that we require it at and even in that regard you are most helpful in fine tuning and tweaking the recipe.

Again many many thanks to you and all the best.
Regards
Cinnamos

[Pete-zza]

Cinnamos,

As with many things in life, the devil is in the detail. However, in defense of Tom Lehmann, it is important to keep in mind that he holds a full time job and belongs to several forums on pizza making and writes for several publications in the field, so it is unreasonable to expect him to find time to provide personalized assistance on pizza matters. He is asked questions all the time where he or the AIB will not benefit in any commercial or financial way. I know of few people within the pizza business who been as generous with his time and in helping others as Tom, all without asking for anything in return. If it weren't for Tom and from what I have learned from his many writings, I seriously doubt that I would have ever joined this forum. I wouldn't have known enough to be able to make a meaningful contribution or to be inspired to learn more about the subject of pizza. He was and has been my "mentor" without even knowing it, and I am flattered to even be mentioned in the same breath as Tom. When he hangs it up in a few years to enter retirement, he will be sorely missed. There is no one else that I can see on the horizon who does what he does and might step in to fill the breach that his retirement will create. If we are lucky, he might write a book about pizza making so that his knowledge is not lost to those of us who have learned so much from him.

Peter

[PizzaManic]

Hi Pete

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding regarding Tom Lehman. I think we have got of on the wrong foot regarding Tom. You have clearly made me understand what a great contribution Tom has made to this industry. I think you may have also misunderstood my sentiments regarding Tom. I have to admit that Tom is a great guy taking into account the amount of contribution he has made to the Pizza Industry but my point I tried to make in my last post was he gives alot of advice aimed at the Pro's. Us beginners can learn allot from him once we spend more time in the industry just as guys like you have. We still have allot of preliminary learning to do before we come close to the level of understanding of Tom.

I have to be honest that i never knew Tom has assisted you so much in this industry and since you have clarified that, he has indirectly thought me allot as well. As you also mentioned in your previous post, if it weren't for him you would have never learned as much as you know and I would have not learned as much as I know from you so indirectly he is my mentor as well. Right now, you divulge knowledge to me on a level that I can understand and probably as time passes and my knowledge increases and if Tom is still offering assistance in this industry, I could learn allot from him directly.

If I have offended Tom or anyone else in any way, my sincere apologies. That was truly not my intention. He is truly a great guy and not many will dedicate the time to impart knowledge of any industry for that matter, without reaping any true rewards other than the satisfaction of helping others.

Regards
Cinnamos

[Pete-zza]

Cinnamos,

As you noted, this forum is unique in that it primarily serves the needs of beginning or home pizza makers. The home pizza market is too small and diverse, and too difficult to monetize, to be of interest to Tom Lehmann, whose job at the AIB and his other industry activities are intended to serve the needs of professionals. The posters who post on this forum, including the Moderators, are mainly individuals with a personal--and often passionate--interest in pizza. They are paid nothing for what they do on the forum, and, unlike other pizza related forums, there are no corporate deep pockets to subsidize the costs of running the forum (the forum is owned by an individual who bears most of those costs). The forum benefits to the extent that posters create and share useful content and, if they feel that they have derived value from the forum, their financial contributions to the forum as Supporting members. As one who has derived enormous value from this forum, I naturally encourage other members who have likewise benefited to become Supporting members and help defray the costs of running the forum.

BTW, I have never worked professionally in the pizza industry. I have always been a home hobbyist pizza maker.

Now, let's get back to your pizza making.

Peter

[PizzaManic]

Hi Pete.
How are you?

Sorry for the delayed reply but my life has just been too hectic this past week so I had no spare time to try out those recipes you gave.

I agree with you that we should keep to the topic and that is Pizza Making. Just for the record, My heart goes out to each and every one of you guys, Beginner or Pro, as every contribution even a simple "Thank You" goes a really long way. A really special thanks to you Pete, as you have really taken my Pizza Experience to another level.

Now,down to business.

As previously stated, I was going to try all these recipes in 1 go to compare them with each other but due to certain constraints, this is not possible at the moment. So tonight, since I have some time on my hands, I thought I'd try out 2 recipes.

Recipe #1 is first on my list. This came out great the last time expect for 2 things. 1 is it wasn't as chewy but was very light and airy. No 2 was I didn't bake it enuf so it was a little doughy. I baked on 240 Degrees Celsius the last time but on this attempt I am going to bake on 210 Degrees for a longer time. Would it be advisable to bake at this temp or will this dry out the inside?
Also I want to leave this for a 3 day fermentation. Does this recipe cator for that? Having some visitors over on friday so its a great time to test the taste with others

The second recipe on my list is either one of the potatoe recipes. I was thinking of using Recipe #6. Just one question on this 1 is I also need to leave this for a 3 day cold fermentation. Would this recipe allow that? Also a though just came to mind. How long do I need to microwave the potatoe for or I know its difficult to tell since each microwave works differently so  how would I know when the potatoe is ready to be peeled and mashed. Must it be very soft or just about getting soft?

Looking forward to hearing from. Just can't wait to experiment as the last week just didn't leave me with time.

Regards
Cinnamos

[Pete-zza]

Recipe #1 is first on my list. This came out great the last time expect for 2 things. 1 is it wasn't as chewy but was very light and airy. No 2 was I didn't bake it enuf so it was a little doughy. I baked on 240 Degrees Celsius the last time but on this attempt I am going to bake on 210 Degrees for a longer time. Would it be advisable to bake at this temp or will this dry out the inside?
Also I want to leave this for a 3 day fermentation. Does this recipe cator for that? Having some visitors over on friday so its a great time to test the taste with others

The second recipe on my list is either one of the potatoe recipes. I was thinking of using Recipe #6. Just one question on this 1 is I also need to leave this for a 3 day cold fermentation. Would this recipe allow that? Also a though just came to mind. How long do I need to microwave the potatoe for or I know its difficult to tell since each microwave works differently so  how would I know when the potatoe is ready to be peeled and mashed. Must it be very soft or just about getting soft?

Cinnamos,

Your plan for Recipe #1 seems to make sense. It's possible that the dough will make it out to three days but to be on the safe side you can cut the amount of yeast in half. I would do likewise with Recipe #6. As far as microwaving the potato is concerned, I would look at the instructions for your particular brand and model of microwave unit, or do a Google search to find a recommended microwave bake time for the size of potato you will be using. Or simply play around with a few potatoes in your microwave unit to get an idea as to the proper bake time. Even then, you may have to tweak the ingredients in the bowl, specifically, the flour and water, to compensate for variations in the condition of the potato.

Peter

[PizzaManic]

Hey Pete

I only managed to try 1 recipe yesterday and it was Recipe #1.
Anyways here is how everything went so far.

1) I started out with measuring the Water, Salt and sugar. Stirred all together and let rest while I mixed the balance of the dry ingredients.

2) I mixed together Flour, Semolina and Yeast in a separate bowl.

** Just one problem I had with the above 2 steps. When I put the yeast,salt and sugar on my digital scale, it just didn't show me the correct measurements. My scale goes to a minimum of 1 gram. I used a Tea Spoon and put just less than half which I believe equals to what was asked for in the recipe. I dropped this amount on my scale and it just wouldn't show 1 gram. So I took another teaspoon of less than half and still nothing. On the third less than half teaspoon it shoots up to about 4 grams. I take out a little at a time thinking it may drop and nothing till all of a sudden it drops back to zero. Is there any other way you can suggest which I can use to measure out IDY, Salt and Sugar without using my scale and getting the most accurate measurement.

3) I plugged in my Mixer and fitted the dough hooks attachment and gradually added the flour bit by bit to my water mixture. Once all the flour was added, I continued with my mixer till my dough was very loose and scrappy and most of the dough was of from the sides. Basically the dough was in many pieces. Total Kneading time at this stage on no 2 speed on my mixer was approx 8-10 mins.

4) I then added oil bit by bit while kneading with my mixer. For some reason, the dough just stayed loose and scrappy. I expected the mixer to form it into 1 neat cohesive ball but that unfortunately didn't happen. I kneaded at this stage for about 4-5 mins but no luck as the dough just remained loose and scrappy and all in pieces so i Hand Kneaded it for about 7-8 mins till it wiped away all the dough from the sides of the bowl and the loose scrappy dough came into one smooth cohesive ball.

** Two things I noticed at the step above. 1 was with regard to my Mixer not kneading the dough into 1 smooth ball. How do I avoid this the next time? Do you thing it is advisable to mix the oil with the water mixture?
** The other thing I noticed was the now formed dough ball was really sticky and kept sticking to my hands and fingers. Could this pose as a problem in the final pizza and if so then should I have kneaded it a little longer or maybe added some other ingredients to avoid this.
** How will I know if I am over kneading the dough and what impact can this have on the final baked pizza.

5) I then weighed my Dough Ball and it was exactly 7.2 Oz. I let the dough ball rest for a approx 12-15 mins while I cleaned up.

6) I then took the ball and rolled it using my rolling pin. At this step, I noticed that the dough had stuck to my table top. Just one note is I didn't roll out on a lightly floured surface. Could this be the reason why the dough stuck to the surface and if so should I roll out on a lightly floured surface next time? I had to be very careful when picking up the dough to place it in my Pan because it was stuck so badly that it looked as if it was going to tear. The other problem I had when rolling out the dough was i just couldn't get it to the desired size. Not that it was hard to roll. That was definitely not the case because the dough was really soft, stretchable and easy to roll but I just couldn't get it into a perfect circle. After a lot of rolling and hand shaping, I managed to the desired circle. I had one concern at this point. Will over rolling the dough affect the overall taste and especially the texture of the final baked pizza.

7) I then placed it into the pan, Covered the pan using a plastic bag and placed it straight in the fridge.

All in all, the dough lay outside for approx 1/2 an hour, from the time the dough ball was formed till the time I placed the pan into the fridge.

If possible, please do comment on any point which you find I may have done incorrectly. Really looking forward to hearing from you.

Regards
Cinnamos

[Pete-zza]

Cinnamos,

I will give you my comments using the numbering system you used in your last post.

2): I don't weigh salt, sugar, or yeast with my scale. I only weigh the flour and water. If I used semolina flour, I might weigh that if enough of it is to be used. For small amounts of lightweight ingredients, I rely on the conversion data (weight to volume) embedded in the dough calculating tools. I have a special digital scale that can weigh small quantities of lightweight ingredients, and through periodic weighings of lightweight ingredients using that scale have found the conversion data embedded in the dough calculating tools to be reliable and dependable. So, my advice is to rely on the quantity measurements provided by the dough calculating tools for ingredients like yeast, salt, and sugar. In your case, I would weigh only the flour, semolina, and water.

3), 4) and 6): It looks like the problem you experienced with wetness of the dough is that the hydration is off. In the U.S., using U.S. flours, I don't think that one would encounter the hydration problem you experienced so I am guessing that it is either your flour or your hand mixer, or possibly a combination of both, that is causing the problem. Unless your hand mixer is the problem, the solution is to add more flour, or reduce the amount of water, to get the desired final dough hydration. What I usually do in such a case, especially if I have already put all of the formula water into my mixer bowl, is to note how much additional flour I have to add to the dough to get the desired final dough condition. I add additional flour a teaspoon at a time and note how many teaspoons are needed to achieve the desired final dough condition. I can then go back and adjust the dough formulation for future dough batches.

As far as the oil addition is concerned, I have mixed feelings on that point. Tom Lehmann says to add the oil after the initial mixing of the dough, on the theory that oil impedes the hydration of the flour. On the other hand, adding the oil to the water helps disperse it into the dough more uniformly and efficiently. I have tried both methods and, to be honest, I haven't seen a big difference. That has been the case even when using upwards of 7% oil (by weight of flour). For the type of dough you are making, I think I would just add the oil to the water in your mixer bowl. I use a flat beater (paddle) to start the mixing and kneading process, and it usually only takes about 1-2 minutes at stir speed to incorporate the ingredients, including oil, and to get the dough mass to pull away from the sides of the bowl and to aggregate around the flat beater. I then switch to the C-hook and knead for about 4-5 minutes at speed 2. With this regimen, it is almost impossible to get overkneading of the dough. In your case, if I got the math right, you used 19-23 minutes of kneading, for a very small amount of dough (7.2 ounces). That is far too much and can easily result in a dough texture that is like chewing gum. If a dough is overkneaded, it can affect the way it handles when the time comes to work with the dough. For example, you might get a stiffness in the dough with a tendency of the dough to tear when shaping and stretching. If you are using a rolling pin to roll out the dough, you might at least avoid the tearing of the dough although it still might be stiff and elastic. The problems you recited in paragraph 6) are symptomatic of an overkneaded dough. The texture of the finished crust is also likely to be sub-par and not have a lot of softness.

Once you have had a chance to digest the above comments, I suggest that you take a look at the dough preparation methods I described for Papa John clone doughs at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html, with specific reference to Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60197.html#msg60197. I picked that specific post because the dough formulation described there calls for a relatively low hydration (56%) and a fair amount of oil. In my case, I used the IDY differently than you used it but that was for a specific purpose that does not apply in your case. You should be able to make your dough using the basic methods and knead times described in Reply 35 and elsewhere in the same thread. In fact, in your case, you should be able to reduce the final knead time because of the small amount of dough you would b making.

I realize that you are using a hand mixer with dough hooks but if you plan on making pizzas on a regular basis, you may want to invest in a standard stand mixer. It will make life far easier for you.

Peter