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Offline artigiano

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Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« on: July 26, 2008, 08:22:59 PM »
If I wanted to try and make a dough that was as traditional Napoletana as possible, what would I do or where can I look?  I am currently making a hybrid more NY style I guess using pastry flour but I am in the mood to look for some 00 flour and try something more authentic.  I am currently also using a 24hr cold fermentation with only sea salt and yeast added to the pastry/ap flour which makes for a nice complex and light tasting dough.  I really like my pizzas right now, but want to see the difference.  I also have never used a biga/ starter and may be up for the challenge.  Thanks everyone and most authentic.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2008, 10:14:57 PM »
Al,

I understand that you have a wood fired oven but can you tell us what the operating temperature range of that oven is? If it is not high enough, it may be difficult to get good results even with an "authentic" Neapolitan dough recipe. Also, there are many different 00 flours so it may be necessary to modify whatever recipe you decide to use to accommodate the particular 00 flour you are able to locate where you are in Canada and to adapt its use to your particular oven. If you can get the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, that would perhaps be the best choice for your purposes.

I would not advise moving too quickly to the use of natural starters. If I were you I would work to perfect your pizzas using the basic ingredients of 00 flour, water, sea salt and yeast (fresh yeast if you can get it). To the best of my knowledge, there are only about two or three pizzerias in Naples using natural starters, so you can get authenticity without having to use starters.

Remember also that authentic Neapolitan doughs are made and fermented at ambient temperature or in a controlled temperature environment. The doughs are not cold fermented. This means having to learn how to make and manage doughs over a wide range of ambient temperatures (e.g., summer and winter), and using the doughs the same day as made. In my opinion and experience, working with same-day doughs made at ambient temperatures is a lot harder than making cold fermented doughs. I think that most would agree that making cold fermented 00 doughs, as many pizza operators do in the U.S., are not "authentic" Neapolitan doughs, at least not in accordance with the standards used in Naples.

Your original request for assistance is very broad and can be answered in so many different ways. So, if your interest in 00 doughs is narrower than my characterization above, you may find it helpful to narrow the scope of your request for help.

Peter

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2008, 10:19:58 PM »
Hi peter,

I regularly get the oven to around 800 but can push for more if I really stoke the fire, I just have to watch my pies closely not to burn them.  I remember buying the small 00 bags a couple years ago and to be honest cant remember the brand.  I already use the fresh yeast and I can let you know what type of 00 I am using once I source a brand out.  I will try and go for the Caputo.

thanks

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2008, 10:20:47 PM »
I was also wondering how this dough is controlled?  It definately seems tricky.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2008, 11:04:42 PM »
I was also wondering how this dough is controlled?  It definately seems tricky.


Al,

As I understand it, the main ways of controlling the fermentation process is through adjusting the amount of flour to increase or decrease the hydration of the dough (the amount of water is fixed in both cases), and also by using more or less salt. It would also be possible to use more or less yeast and/or to use warmer or colder water, but I don't recall offhand if, and to what extent, these measures are used. Lately, I have beem making room-temperature fermented doughs (but not Neapolitan) and have used all of these methods. I personally think it is considerably harder making room-temperature fermented doughs than making cold fermented doughs. If I were a professional, I would have to learn how to make the same-day doughs consistently day in and day out.

For background reading purposes, you may want to read the VPN document as translated at the Forno Bravo website at http://www.fornobravo.com/vera_pizza_napoletana/VPN_spec.html. That document will give you a pretty good idea as to how the VPN views authenticity of the Neapolitan dough and pizza. Keep in mind, however, that not everyone abides by the methodologies described in that document. In fact, many scoff at the document. If you can read Italian, see also this document: http://www.pizzanapoletana.org/images/file/disciplinare_stg.pdf.

As a typical Neapolitan dough recipe, the U.S. VPN organization recommends the following recipe: http://www.verapizzanapoletana.org/vpn/ricetta.htm. I have not tried that recipe so I cannot comment on it other than to say that many of our members use a higher hydration than the hydration (about 55.6%) called for in that recipe. Keep in mind, however, that the Neapolitan pizza makers use different mixers than we use (see Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1660.msg15318/topicseen.html#msg15318). They do not use planetary mixers.

Peter

EDIT (8/1/14): For a Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative link to the Italian document, see http://web.archive.org/web/20090219002549/http://www.pizzanapoletana.org/images/file/disciplinare_stg.pdf


Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2008, 11:29:26 PM »
Peter,

Is there a noticeable difference in the 00 flour vs pastry/ ap that I use for a cold fermentation?  I would like to note that I really find that the autolyse works wonders for me.  I notice small little bubbles and blisters in the dough even before it goes into the oven and really helps in making it airey and lighter, provided the hydration is appropriate.  The last time I made the pizzas it was a little on the high side which took away from that usual lighter tasting dough.  I was wondering if you autolyse your dough as well?

Offline pftaylor

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Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2008, 06:38:52 AM »
Hi artigiano & Pete-zza,
If there is room for one more pair of helping hands, I'd like to offer my assistance.

Sounds like you have the basis to make a pretty convincing Neapolitan pizza. Here is a VERY basic room temperature guideline recipe to try once you get Caputo Pizzeria:

1/2 Liter of Bottled Water (room temperature or ever so slightly chilled)
850g Caputo Pizzeria
25g Salt
1g Fresh Yeast

For a 68F - 70F Twenty-Four Hour Room Temperature Rise:
- Add the water first, then salt, then yeast combining each before adding the next.
- Set mixer to slowest speed and begin adding the flour slowly a spoonful at a time over approximately 15 - 20 minutes.
- Once all the flour has been added, mix for a couple of minutes more
- Cover bowl with towel and rest for 15 minutes
- Remove from bowl, place on bench, punch and fold until springy
- Bulk rise for 18 hours; then cut, ball, and cover for remaining 6 hours
- Have your oven cranked up to 850F on the deck and over 1000F at the ceiling. One half spin with the small peel and sixty seconds later, you should have the pizza of your life...

Should produce about five small pies.

Let me know how you make out.
pftaylor
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2008, 09:48:04 AM »
Peter,

Is there a noticeable difference in the 00 flour vs pastry/ ap that I use for a cold fermentation?  I would like to note that I really find that the autolyse works wonders for me.  I notice small little bubbles and blisters in the dough even before it goes into the oven and really helps in making it airey and lighter, provided the hydration is appropriate.  The last time I made the pizzas it was a little on the high side which took away from that usual lighter tasting dough.  I was wondering if you autolyse your dough as well?


Al,

Since you didn't describe how you make your dough, it isn't entirely clear to me from reading your post what process you are referring to as "autolyse". To me, autolyse is combining only flour and water during the initial preparation of the dough and letting it rest for a predetermined period before adding salt and yeast. Some people do the autolyse a little bit differently but if the yeast is present during the rest period, the yeast can acidify the dough, which is generally to be avoided for a classical autolyse. I do not very often use autolyse. If it is called for by a recipe, however, I will try it to see if I like the results. Most of the recipes I play around with, at least recently, do not call for autolyse. The last time I used autolyse was for a cracker style dough, and it was not clear to me whether the results benefited from it, so the jury is still out on that application.

I am not sure that there will be a big difference procedurally switching 00 flour for your all-purpose/pastry flour blend in the context of a cold fermentation but in my case I was using 00 flour in relation to a standard unmodified home oven, which required that I adapt the flour and dough formulation to that application. If you are interested, there is an entire thread devoted to cold fermentation of 00 doughs. It is a long read, and some people won't read it as a result, but the thread is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.0.html

Peter

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2008, 02:30:44 PM »
Hi Pete,

By autolyse I was talking about the flour and water sitting for 25 mins.  For example,  if I use 6 cups all purpose flour and 4 cups pastry I let all the ap flour sit and one quarter pastry flour sit(one cup pastry).   I find anymore flour added to this autolyse causes the dough to be too airey almost like bread.  I have tried various combinations but this seems to be the best.  After the autloyse I add the 3/8 oz fresh yeast that is sitting for about 10 mins in about 1/4 cup warm water.  I then work in 1 oz of sea salt and the remaining pastry flour.  I currently use 62% hydration but I always seem to add bench flour so I might modify my recipe to bring down the hydration.   My dough has small blisters in it everywhere after stretching that are filled with air and when I put the pizzas in the oven they bubble up making for a very nice air and crisp taste.

Al

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2008, 02:36:38 PM »
call my crazy but I just had a thought.. and I had to jump back on.  What would happen if I tried to use San Pellegrino water that is a little sparkly with minerals instead of regular tap water? 


Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2008, 02:38:59 PM »
what would happen besides making it expensive that is.  I come from a place with soft water and I would love to use hard water so looking at options.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2008, 02:44:47 PM »
Al,

FYI, I was able to find a post by Marco in which he mentioned increasing or decreasing the amount of starter ("Crisceto") seasonally, along with the amount of flour, at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1668.msg15083.html#msg15083. On the matter of water temperature changes, see the post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3871.msg32404.html#msg32404. So, in general, it looks like the amount of starter culture, the water temperature, the hydration (via the amount of flour), and the amount of salt can all be varied. I guess the skill comes in how to balance all of these variables on a daily basis.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2008, 02:58:03 PM »
call my crazy but I just had a thought.. and I had to jump back on.  What would happen if I tried to use San Pellegrino water that is a little sparkly with minerals instead of regular tap water? 


Al,

I will not go so far as to call you crazy, but as noted at Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,571.msg5913/topicseen.html#msg5913, I have tried all kinds of water, including water like the San Pellegrino (a cheaper version), and could not tell the difference other than in the pocketbook.

Peter

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2008, 04:33:07 PM »
Hi guys,

I just noticed PF Taylors post as well.  I can definately try that recipe and I will read the threads Peter.  This feels like a new ball game to me as I am only accustomed to my cold fermentation so I will see how I can balance the variables and let you guys now.  PF, I always measure the deck and I know the ceiling is definately much higher than 850 and usually hold the pizza up there for a few seconds.  I am interested in the water so Ill give it a read.

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2008, 04:39:32 PM »
looks like water isnt something to put too much thought into, besides maybe using filtered or bottle rather than the tap water I use.  Howevore, I am somewhat surprised that the taste of those minerals in water doesnt translate through to the dough as it tastes much different than the soft water in my rainy city.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2008, 05:32:03 PM »
looks like water isnt something to put too much thought into, besides maybe using filtered or bottle rather than the tap water I use.  Howevore, I am somewhat surprised that the taste of those minerals in water doesnt translate through to the dough as it tastes much different than the soft water in my rainy city.


Al,

It's possible that others with a more sensitive palate than mine might be able to tell the differences between different waters, but I couldn't. I have intentionally tried my local tap water on several occasions and, as bad as it tastes, I couldn't detect any off flavors in the finished crusts. I believe that quite a few independent pizza operators in the U.S. use their local water.

Tom Lehmann, a pizzas dough guru at the American Institute of Baking, has written frequently on the subject of water quality, including a post at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=3210#3210 and, more recently, at the Pizza Today Bulletin Board at http://www.pizzatoday.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001332.

There was a discussion of the water in Naples in a series of posts starting at Reply 34 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1378.msg13898.html#msg13898. If you want "authenticity" of your Neapolitan dough, you may have to start importing water from Naples ;D. The restaurant Naples 45 in New York City used to do that for its Caputo 00 doughs. It later hired an outside company to create a Neapolitan water "clone". I haven't checked in a while to see if they are still doing that.

Peter

EDIT (8/1/14): For a Wayback Machine version of the link to the above inoperative Pizza Today item, see http://web.archive.org/web/20080801211738/http://www.pizzatoday.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001332


Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2008, 01:46:16 PM »
ok my Caputo pizzeria 00 is coming soon as I ofund some in a city 4 hours drive away.  There must be a place in Vancouver as it about 10 times the size of this city but I hvent seen it here so they are shipping it via greyhound.  I will let you all know how it goes.

Offline fabio

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2008, 11:26:08 PM »
Artigiano,

Are you in vancouver? I am, and I haven't been able to find caputo anywhere. I am forced to get it from Seattle.

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2008, 04:12:46 AM »
Hi Fabio,

A food importer called Valoroso foods in Kelowna carries it, they just started to.  I spoke with them and she told me that they usually only supply restaurants.  She is supposed to be getting back to me with a qoute as she told me she would do me a favor and put a 25kg bag on Greyhound but I am still waiting for her e-mail back.  Where are you in Van?  How old are you if you I might ask?  Seattle could also be a good option.  Where in Seattle?

Al
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 04:20:53 AM by artigiano »

Offline fabio

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2008, 12:24:43 PM »
I am in Coquitlam and I'm 31 y/o. How about you? I was in Kelowna a couple of weeks ago on vacation, shame I did not know about Valoroso. The place in Seattle is called Merlino Foods. Their info is:

Merlino Foods
5300 Denver Ave S
Seattle 98108
(206) 723-4700

Hope that helps.