Author Topic: Authentic Naples Dough as possible  (Read 17896 times)

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Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2008, 01:29:09 PM »
Fabio, I am 27 in Burnaby North.  If you like I can give you the info when I know a price.  I will call her again as I havent heard back yet.  I was thinking if they are getting Caputo in Kelowna it must go through Vancouver.  Do you ever find San Marzano's here in Van?  The best that I can find as far as taste and consistency is 6 in 1 as I was not trying to make Neapolitan before but now it feels like its a journey I want to go on.  By the way,  do you usually buy one 25kg bag at a time from Seattle?  How much are they? The new Bosa carries 00 but tiny bags and not Caputo. 

-Alessandro


Offline fabio

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2008, 01:49:14 PM »
Alessandro,

I can't remember exactly how much it is, but I think it is about $30 for a 25kg bag. My uncle works for a food importer in Seattle (not Merlino) that imports Solano brand San Marzano tomatoes. He is back-and-forth between here and seattle, so I get him to bring me a carton from time to time. He's also kind enough to swing by Merlino and pick me up a bag of Caputo once in a while, so it works pretty well for me. Unfortunately that doesn't help you much. Sorry.

Have you lived in Vancouver your whole life?

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2008, 04:48:31 PM »
Yes, I was born here.  I talked to Valoroso and they told me that they want $51 per bag and the Greyhound costs $50 to ship.  It is a little too expensive at $100 for a bag of flour.  I will do some thinking and see what I can do.

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2008, 04:49:21 PM »
By the way, If I do drive over to Seattle can you find out where to pick up these tomatoes?

Offline fabio

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2008, 04:53:40 PM »
Most definitely.

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2008, 10:46:49 PM »
I really appreciate it, this way I can buy both togethor.

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2008, 10:18:11 PM »
    I tried the Caputo pizzera flour and loved the way that it holds up to high temp ovens. The brick oven deck was at 850 and I usually tossed in some oak right before making a pizza to give another blast of heat since the oak puts out some extra heat.  I usually have to be very careful with the ap/ pastry flour dough when it is in there as it burns if I make a small mistake and leave it too close to the fire.  The Caputo gave the pizza that leoparding effect that I was trying to get with other flours but wasnt quite able even when very near the flames.

    I used PF's recommendd basic Neapolitan recipe of -1/2L bottle
                                                                        - 850g Caputo
                                                                        - 25g Sea Salt
                                                                        - 1g fresh yeast

      I did have some problems along the way that I could use some advice on since the pizzas were overproofed and I think too high hydration.  I started out autolysing about 75% of the flour in order to make the dough more airey as well as easier to knead as I do not have a mixer.  After the 25 min autolyse I added the yeast in a small part of the 500ml water that I warmed up to activate the fresh yeast.  Lastly, the salt was added and I kneaded everything for around 20 mins and the dough felt good.. I actually thought it might be under hydrated.  I covered it with some small towels in a bowl for around 20 hours.  The dough had doubled and was very wet and sticky and had formed a crust around it.  I wasn't sure if I should have coated it with olive oil or something before I let it bulk rise, I am still wondering how to avoid that. 

     Since it was crusted I had to re-work the thin layer of crusted dough into the mass before cutting and balling it at about 10 oz each.  While I made the dough balls I had to use extra flour as they were sticking to my fingers and wet.  I then was worried about more crust forming so I coated 8 of the 9 balls in EVO and then plastic wrapped the container I had left them in to avoid air getting in.  I did leave one of the balls in a towel without olive oil and just a dusting of flour and after the 2nd stage of around 5 hours it was ok and there was no crust to my surprise. 

       Basically, the end result was an over-extensible and chewy dough but I realized there was huge potential in the charactersics that I was able to identify even with this first trial run.  For example, the taste was great as well as the dough definately seems enginereed to be in brick ovens.  I was thinking that I should leave everything as is and maybe up the flour to 1000g of Caputo and leaving the water at 500ml, 25g sea salt and the fresh yeast at 1 g.  Amazing how far the yeast goes by the way, but I am always left over with a lot of fresh yeast, its only $1 a half brick which is like a brick of butter (haven't weighed it yet).  I am not sure what the hydration levels are yet of the recipe I tried vs the recipe I proposed with the extra flour as I am at work and cant get my head around the grams and ounces here right now.  With all that being said if PF's recipe works well for PF it may very well be another factor that I am overlooking so it will probably be some trial and error to get this dough right. 

Looking forward to hearing some comments or experience and I am really excited about working with this flour now that I have my hands on a 50lb bag.

Al 

Offline fabio

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2008, 11:07:19 PM »
Al,

Really glad you like the Caputo! PF's recipe is 59% (500/850) hydration and your proposed recipe is 50% hydration (500/1000), both in baker's percents, of course. That's a little low, in my opinion; as you know from my pm, I do 65% hydration doughs with Caputo. Tough to handle, but well worth it in end-results, if you ask me. Good neapolitan pizza places use wooden boxes for the final for the "appretto" stage (individual dough-ball proofing) which I think helps in making the dough balls a little drier on the outside, without forming a crust. That should make them easier to handle.

As for oiling the dough balls, that's a no-no according to the purists. The reason behind it is that the oil burns at the high temperatures and tastes bitter. The best way (outside of using wooden boxes as per above) is to use Varasano's method of putting the dough balls in 3-cup (or so) glad containers. Oil them with only a drop or two of EVO as a release agent and that shouldn't make your dough bitter.

To prevent the crusting in the "punto" or "puntata" stage (the mass proofing), I put the dough in a bowl and cover it with plastic wrap, with the plastic touching the dough completely. Then I cover the bowl (not the dough) in plastic wrap too. This is so that if any area of the dough gets un-covered when the dough rises, it will not get too crusty in that area. It seems to work for me.

By over-extensible do you mean that it was too elastic (ie, it won't stretch properly)? I find it strange that a 59% hydration dough would be too extensible. Chewy, I understand, I would expect that because of the low hydration. The other thing you can do is to knead the dough less. I just recently started kneading by hand and I find that stopping soon after the dough gets smooth and starts sticking less is when you need to stop. Neapolitan pizza should be very delicate, so over-kneading is to be avoided. As mentioned, the hydration also plays a large part in that.

BTW, any pictures???

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2008, 11:47:54 PM »
Hi Fabio,

I didn't feel right taking the pics first time around as when I took the mass out it was sticking like crazy to the bowl and was crusted.  Taking pics of this just didn't sit right with me since it was the first time and I some what expected something like this.  I probably should have taken the time for the pics.  I think I may leave the recipe as it is and try what you have told me as 50% seems far too low and was thinking that earlier as well.  When I was talking about extensibility I meant the dough was too stretchy.  I had to be careful how I handled it as it was very very soft and stretchy, sorry for the confusion.  I am not sure what creates the chewiness as opposed to light and airey?  I was thinking it was chewy since it was too wet, or perhaps you are right and I over kneaded.  I thought I read some where that Caputo should be kneaded for a while and maybe thats why I ended up over kneading.  I think I will try again a few times without firing the oven since it takes me about 3 hours to get the temp high enough.  The thing is I have quite a few people coming over on Thursday for pizzas and wanted to use the Caputo but I am not sure if I will be confident by then.  I will see how it goes.  Thanks Fabio.

Alessandro

Offline Essen1

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2008, 12:10:33 AM »
Quote
To prevent the crusting in the "punto" or "puntata" stage (the mass proofing), I put the dough in a bowl and cover it with plastic wrap, with the plastic touching the dough completely. Then I cover the bowl (not the dough) in plastic wrap too. This is so that if any area of the dough gets un-covered when the dough rises, it will not get too crusty in that area. It seems to work for me.

Fabio,

That's exactly how I do it also.

I bought a proofing box a couple of weeks ago which holds six dough balls comfortably. Once they go into the box, I cover them with a plastic bag - clean of course - put the lid on and let either proof at room temp or I put them in the fridge until I need them. Works great.
Mike

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Offline fabio

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2008, 12:24:03 AM »
Essen, did you buy a wood proofing box? If so, where did you get it?

Offline Essen1

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2008, 12:32:10 AM »
Essen, did you buy a wood proofing box? If so, where did you get it?

Fabio,

Unfortunately no.

The supply store where I got mine does not carry those. I might have to try a more upscale place such as "Sur la table" , and see if they carry wooden proofing boxes.
Mike

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Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2008, 12:41:24 AM »
Hey guys,

Do you re-knead or re work the dough a little after this mass rise?  Also, I take it the plastic wrap must be very loose to accomadate the almost doubling in size for the inital bulk rise.  Does your dough feel quite sticky as mine was sticking to the bowl?  Do you re-wrap the individual dough balls as well?

thanks guys,
Al

Offline Essen1

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2008, 01:18:35 AM »
Art,

After the second rise, I re-work it into a ball and start measuring individual dough balls. They go into the proofing box right after that.

No, I don't re-wrap he dough balls individually. Just a slight dusting of flour on the bottom of the box and that's it.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 01:21:32 AM by Essen1 »
Mike

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http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline fabio

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2008, 01:27:30 AM »
I don't re-knead. I just sprinkle some flour on my surface, then set the dough on it and gently bring the edges to the center and flip it over (to create one giant ball. Then I divide and shape. I try to treat it as gently as possible to keep as much air in and not wreck the internal structure. I don't know if there's any fact to that at all, it's just my thinking.

The plastic wrap doesn't need to be loose, just make sure there's enough to cover it all when it grows.

My dough does not stick to the bowl, especially after the bulk rise. It just leaves a thin, almost oily, residue on my bowl (and no, I don't use oil or grease or anything other than "the four" ingredients). Keep in mind that my formulation is substantially different from yours. Don't get me wrong though, the dough IS sticky, it just doesn't stick to the bowl.

After dividing and shaping, I put the pizze in individual glad containers as per above. I'm trying to get my hands on some wooden proofing boxes, but that's proving a little difficult (pun fully intended).

Quote from: artigiano
I was thinking it was chewy since it was too wet . . .

That seems intuitive, but from my experience, with a lot of trial and error, it is the exact opposite. I think that's because a wetter dough creates more steam in the oven, which means a more airy crust that is more thoroughly cooked, which in turn means less chewiness.

Hope that helps.

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2008, 02:29:15 AM »
I have not used them for proofing yet, but I would imagine I could dust them with flour and proof using bamboo steamers. You could also cut some thin round wooden disks and put in the bottom of these as well. Otherwise they do a great job of steaming salmon with some fermented black beans and scallions on top.

PNW

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2008, 08:27:36 AM »
Al,

I agree with fabio that the hydration is not likely to be the problem. In fact, you yourself commented that the dough after kneading seemed underhydrated. What I believe happened is that your dough overfermented because of the long room-temperature fermentation (20 hours plus six for the individual dough balls). I calculated that your fresh yeast was used at a level of about 0.12% of the weight of flour (1/850). That may not seem like much but it likely was too much for a room-temperature fermentation/ripening period of over 20 hours. To give you an example, I recently made a room-temperature fermented dough in which I used 0.01250% IDY (see Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60197.html#msg60197). On a comparable fresh yeast basis, that would have been equal to about 0.0375% fresh yeast (3 x 0.0125%). That is about a third of what you used on a percentage basis. In my case, the dough doubled within 17 hours at room temperature. I decided at that point to punch down the dough and let it ripen for another six hours. At the end of 23 hours (17 + 6), the dough was not overfermented in the least but had I used the yeast at the same levels as you did (on a comparable basis to fresh yeast), I would have experienced the same problem as you did after 23 hours. One of the effects of an overfermented dough is the release of water into the dough. That is what makes the dough wet at this stage and might lead you to believe--falsely, I might add--that your dough was overhydrated from the very beginning. Marco discussed this phenomenon of the release of water into the dough at Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg9430.html#msg9430.

In your case, I would stick with 59% as a hydration value for now and reduce the amount of yeast. The 59% hydration value is a common one for a Caputo dough. You can go higher in time, as fabio, Marco and a few other members do, but you might approach the higher hydration levels gradually as you gain more experience in handling Caputo doughs. That will also teach you a lot about how the Caputo dough handles at different hydration levels. As far as the amount of fresh yeast to use, that will to a large degree depend on your room temperature where you are in Canada. In my case as described above, my room temperature was around 80-82 degrees F. If your room temperature is anywhere near that, you may have to cut back dramatically on the yeast if you want the dough to make it out to over 20 hours. In my case, I concluded that I would have to use between 1/64 and 1/128 teaspoon of IDY to achieve that result.

As far as wooden dough boxes is concerned, one of the few places I was able to identify as a source of such boxes is Marsal, at http://www.marsalsons.com/doughboxes.html. A couple of years ago, I called and spoke with a sales rep at Marsal who told me at the time that they would sell such boxes to individuals--even a single dough box. I discussed my findings at the time at Reply 516 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg31992.html#msg31992.

Peter

Offline scpizza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2008, 08:55:02 AM »
Yes.  The steamer, the wood box, or any porous solution that allows the dough to breathe will produce a significantly better result than polypropylene or other non-porous surface.  The fermentation and redistribution of moisture inside the ball as the gluten settles cause it to sweat.

Trapping that excreted moisture between the doughball surface and impenetrable polypropylene creates not only an unpleasant coating of slime around the ball but also an overhydrated external layer of dough that no amount of extra bench flour can adequately remedy, making handling a nightmare.

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2008, 08:49:18 PM »
Thanks everyone,

I really appreciate it and your responses make a lot of sense.  I will cut back on the yeast and was wondering if the long room temp rise is much more benificial?  What are the ideal rise temps for Caputo, I was wondering if less time would also be a desireable option?  From what I have read the pizzerias seem to use same day dough rather than 20 hr rise but I could be wrong and if so what would be the reason for it?  I will probably do a test in the next couple days so that I can cut back on the yeast and leave all else as is.  Sometimes I think its crazy to buy the fresh yeast when I use just a touch and might even consider switching to ADY if there is not  much difference in the final dough.  Couldn't these wooden proof boxes just be made by hand?

thanks again!
Al

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2008, 09:05:30 PM »
Trapping that excreted moisture between the doughball surface and impenetrable polypropylene creates not only an unpleasant coating of slime around the ball but also an overhydrated external layer of dough that no amount of extra bench flour can adequately remedy, making handling a nightmare.

I proof my dough balls in individual plastic containers and do not encounter the slime nor the handling nightmare you describe. I do roll each ball in a little flour before dropping into the container. I also punch a small hole in the lid to allow excess pressure (and perhaps moisture?) to escape. I've been slightly cranking my hydration to about 64% with a 20-hour room temp (~70F) bulk ferment and 5 hour room-temp proof. But I think at some point it would be interesting to see what would happen with a porous container. Maybe next batch I'll put one ball in a wooden wine wine box I have. 

It has to be said that my dough may not be classified as strictly Neapolitan.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 09:07:17 PM by Bill/SFNM »