Author Topic: Authentic Naples Dough as possible  (Read 19113 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2008, 10:59:55 PM »
Al,

Those are good questions.

Generally speaking, yeast and enzymes perform better at room temperature than under cold fermentation conditions. For example, the sweet spot for enzymes in terms of performance is around 59 degrees F. Yeast will also perform better at warmer temperatures than colder temperatures, although enzymes are not slowed down as much as the yeast under cold fermentation conditions (see, for example, Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13410/topicseen.html#msg13410). So, if you can make a dough using commercial yeast that can ferment for say, 24 hours at room temperature, that may be as close as you can come to optimum performance for that dough. To do better, you would have to subject the dough to a controlled temperature environment, as by using a ThermoKool or similar unit. My recent experiments making commercially leavened doughs with long fermentations at room temperature gave me greater respect for such doughs and the biochemical processes involved.

For those who prefer sourdough type flavors, perhaps the only dough that is likely to be better than the commercial yeast version fermented at room temperature is one that is made under the same conditions but using wild (natural) yeast. The finished crust in that case will be better than the commercial yeast version simply because commercial yeast works much faster than wild yeast (with reduced enzyme performance, as noted in the above linked post) and there are more byproducts of fermentation with the naturally leavened dough. These byproducts of fermentation are responsible for the improved texture, flavor, color and aroma of the finished crust. You might be able to make a cold fermented dough that will arguably be as good as one based on using commercial yeast and fermented for prolonged periods at room temperature but it may require several days of cold fermentation to achieve that result. It is unlikely that you will be able to make a cold fermented dough using commercial yeast that will be as good overall as one based on wild yeast no matter how long the dough is cold fermented. I should add that not everyone likes the flavors that come from naturally leavened doughs, so there is a subjective component that has to be kept in mind when assessing these matters.

It is true true that in Naples dough is fermented at room temperature for less than 24 hours. The VPN doctrinaire document, which can be seen at http://www.fornobravo.com/vera_pizza_napoletana/VPN_spec.html, calls for a two hour first rise in bulk followed by a second rise of 4-6 hours for the divided dough balls. Generally speaking, a total fermentation/rise period of about seven to eight hours is quite common. However, by the proper selection of flour with the right characteristics, it is possible to establish the fermentation periods at several different values. This facet of dough management was discussed in the context of "W" values and fermentation windows at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42545.html#msg42545. As noted at Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25328/topicseen.html#msg25328, the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour has a "W" value of 240-260, which falls within the 6-9 hour window in the table given in Reply 15 referenced above. Also, as previously noted, the characteristics of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour favor room temperature fermentation over cold fermentation. However, that hasn't deterred many pizza operators in the U.S. specializing in Neapolitan style doughs (as opposed to authentic Neapolitan doughs) from using the Caputo flour in a cold fermentation environment.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2008, 11:35:06 PM »
Al,

For comparison purposes, for another set of "W" values and fermentation times for another brand of 00 flour, from Molino Spadoni, see http://www.molinospadoni.it/prodottip/prodottip_pizzaf.asp#pz2.

Peter

Offline fabio

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2008, 11:51:58 PM »
Peter,

You have inadvertently come close to solving one of my problems . . . An Italian, non-pizza related recipe I have calls for flour with a W value of 200, but even after calling flour distributors and millers, I was unable to find anyone who had even heard of a W value at all. Now I know what it is called in english, so I know what to ask for. Thanks so much!

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2008, 12:57:38 AM »
I still don't quite have a grasp on as to why the commercial pizzerias are using the shorter rise time with the same flour and fresh yeast although I may have missed something that was said.  I completely understand that they are probably using their own very refined recipes but as an example, if I kept the recipe as it was the first time when I used it with the 1g fresh yeast, 25g sea salt, 500ml bottled water and 850g Caputo, would this be suitable for a rise time along the lines of the VPN.  Would it be an appropriate recipe as the rise time is shorter? I am not deticated to be in line with the VPN as it seems to me that most people use it as a very rough guideline, I am just curious for the reasoning of these shorter rise times and why and how the Neapolitans are doing them?

Does the "w" value refer to the strength of the flour?  I am not quite clear on exactly what it refers to?  I am also quite excited about the possibility of playing around with a natural wild starter one day after I learn enough about the Caputo flour with commercial yeast before I start naturally leavening.  I was wondering if this is something that people make or buy?  How would the strength of a wild starter be measured as it seems something naturally occuring may be hard to tell control the potency or strength?  Seems like I have a lot to know more to know about dough and science but so comforting to know this site exists.

Al

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2008, 01:23:50 AM »
ah ok,

I see Pizza Napoletena's  comments about the "w" numbers and the strength of the flour in the certain number ranges.

Offline fabio

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2008, 01:28:09 AM »
Al,

According to Marco, if I understand correctly, using less yeast and longer proofing time makes the dough less "bread-like" and more delicate and digestible, which is how neapolitan pizza should be.

You can either make or buy a sourdough starter. I would recommend you buy one (they're cheap) for a couple of reasons: 1) you know you are getting a good quality "strain" and 2) if you get one that other people on this forum have you can more easily get answers to your questions on using it. Thanks to Marco, a lot of people on this site have the Camaldoli starter which many, including myself, swear by. It can be ordered on http://sourdo.com/, it is in the "Italian Starters" package. Since we live so close by, I could also just give you some of mine, if you prefer; that way you don't have to worry about activation.

The strength issue with sourdough starters is a tricky one, although I can't say it has ever caused me any major problems. Generally I take some of my cold liquid starter out at least 24 hours before starting the pizza dough, then I refresh it every 4 hours or so, which gives it strength and brings it back to full potency. Recently I have been turning the liquid starter into a stiffer consistency which lowers the pH, which I believe to be beneficial. For a 24hr proof (combined puntata and appretto), I use roughly 1.75% starter in baker's percents.

Offline scpizza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2008, 01:47:42 AM »
Does the "w" value refer to the strength of the flour?  I am not quite clear on exactly what it refers to? 


http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/alveograph

Offline Pete-zza

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2008, 10:20:02 AM »
Al,

When you posted your dough formulation earlier, I thought that perhaps you were trying to reproduce the results of using a long fermented, naturally leavened dough but using commercial yeast rather than wild yeast, along the lines, for example, of a recipe like the one originally posted by Marco at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1415.msg12915.html#msg12915. There is no reason why you can't make a same-day, commercially-leavened Caputo dough. That is easier and more convenient to do from a business management standpoint than making a 24+ hour room temperature fermented dough. That may be part of the reason why commercial operators in Naples use a same-day dough. And, as pointed out above, the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour has the right characteristics for a same-day dough. Since you asked for an "authentic" Neapolitan dough, such a same-day dough would pass that test of authenticity. From what I understand, in Naples, the doughs are never cold fermented. There may be some storage in a cooler as a holding mechanism, but not for fermentation purposes as such. For example, after the second rise, the dough balls may be held in a cooler pending use after the second rise, a period that, according to the VPN disciplinaire, can extend out to six hours. I believe that this may have been contemplated by the language in Article 3, paragraph 2 of the disciplinaire: By controlling storage temperature, these dough balls can then be used at any time within the following 6 hours.

In your case, you might want to repeat your recipe but using an amount of fresh yeast that will allow you to make a dough within a window of about 7-9 hours, at room temperature. As noted earlier, your recipe calls for about 0.12% fresh yeast as a percent of formula flour. A more typical amount might be around 0.20% fresh yeast, which is the rate of usage that was called for in a Caputo dough recipe that was given to me some time ago by the importer of the Caputo flour. That recipe is set forth at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,783.msg7219.html#msg7219. Another Neapolitan dough recipe, at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm, calls for 0.30% fresh yeast but the flour used in that recipe is the Caputo Red flour, not the Pizzeria flour, and the hydration is on the low side, which may require the higher yeast usage. The dough recipe recommended by the U.S. VPN organization, at http://www.verapizzanapoletana.org/vpn/ricetta.htm, calls for yeast (fresh yeast) at the rate of about 0.16% of the formula flour. Unless it is really hot where you are in Canada this time of year, you might try using 0.20% fresh yeast and see how that works out for you. You can later make adjustments as dictated by your results. Whatever recipe you use, I suggest that you use member November's poppy seed trick as described in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. That way, you should be able to monitor the progress of the rise of your bulk dough and dough balls throughout the entire fermentation process.

I personally think that you should master the basic principles of making room-temperature fermented Caputo doughs before venturing into the use of natural starters. Of course, if you think that you have already mastered those principles from your prior experiences with the flour blends you were using before acquiring the Caputo Pizzeria flour, then you can of course give serious thought to getting one or more well proven starter cultures, such as the Italian ones sold by Ed Wood.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 10:58:19 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2008, 07:33:51 PM »
Thanks guys,

I think I will play with the Caputo with the longer rise time.  I definately have to master the room temp rises as I have been accustomed to the cold fermentation method but looking forward to learning the neapolitan way.  I appreciate all the links Peter as always.  I will follow the advice given and definately need some time before I start playing with starters but at that point I will let you know Fabio

thanks,
Al


Offline JimmyMak

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2008, 08:31:04 PM »
I just made dough with 100% pizza caputo flour.
1000 gr flour
600 gr water, if tap distilled for a day
1-2 gr fresh yeast
24 gr sea salt
75% of flour all of the water & mixed by hand , cover rest 20 min.
remaining flour salt Knead on KA 600 on 1 for 8 min.
cover & warm rise @73 degrees overnight. 18hrs
Divided & balled ,covered rise aprox 3 hrs.
This dough is so soft ,in my opinion it would be difficult to make a pizza much biggger than 12"
The pizzas were the best I ever made. The crust did the talking.
I wish I took pictures of these ones.
I 've made many different doughs like most of have & this one is my favorite.
This method will be more difficult for larger bakes.
Next time the temp or humidty might change the finished product.
Thanks everyone for all the good info.


Offline trailer

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2008, 10:41:55 PM »
Add one more for Coquitlam!

These locations may help you two in sourcing your flour..

La Grotta
Del Formaggio
1791 Commercial
604-255-3911

Fortunato, the owner,  has been one of the major specialty importers in Vancouver for 20 years. He was the only one bringing in San Pellegrino for ages... Now even Costco does it.

You could also try Bosa Foods. They are at 1st Ave and Highway 1.





Offline fabio

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2008, 11:16:57 PM »
trailer, are you saying that La Grotta now carries caputo?!?!?! I've never seen it there. That sure would be handy.

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2008, 08:12:23 PM »
Fabio,

They carry a type of 00 in small bags from Italy but I can't remember the brand name.  They do not have the Caputo there.  Valoroso in Kelowna is looking for some one in Vancouver to carry it so they can sell it retail here.

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2008, 08:04:35 PM »
As a typical Neapolitan dough recipe, the U.S. VPN organization recommends the following recipe: http://www.verapizzanapoletana.org/vpn/ricetta.htm. I have not tried that recipe so I cannot comment on it other than to say that many of our members use a higher hydration than the hydration (about 55.6%) called for in that recipe. Keep in mind, however, that the Neapolitan pizza makers use different mixers than we use (see Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1660.msg15318/topicseen.html#msg15318). They do not use planetary mixers.

Peter
Peter,

Not sure if this has been discussed before or if I am misreading but I interpret the following differently than others.


1) Preparation of the Dough: The ingredients are flour, water, salt, and yeast. Pour one liter of water into a mixer bowl. Dissolve 50-55 grams of sea salt. Now successively add 10% of the flour and 3g yeast. Turn on the mixer, gradually adding the rest of 1,800 grams of flour W 220-380 until the desired consistency is reached, that is until it is a dough. This operation should last about ten minutes. The dough should then be worked in the mixer for about 20 minutes at low speed until it is a compact mass The dough should not be sticky, but soft and elastic. The dough must not be heated during the above operations.

When they say adding the rest of 1,800 grams - I take that to mean they started with 2,000 grams, added 10% (200 grams) at the beginning and that left 1,800 to be gradually added. The math works out better with 250 gram balls which divides evenly into 3000 grams as opposed to 2800 grams divided by 250, leaving 11.2 .

Obviously in my scenario it is a much less hydrated dough - just a curiosity from reading that VPN translation.

Any thoughts?

PNW

Offline Essen1

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2008, 08:13:53 PM »
PNW,

I think they mean to take 180 gr off the entire 1,800 gr of flour and then gradually add the rest from the 1,800 gr, which is 1,620 gr.
Mike

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Offline November

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2008, 08:27:37 PM »
gradually adding the rest of 1,800 grams of flour

Mike is precisely correct.  "The rest" only has one meaning, the remainder of the total, and isn't open for interpretation.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2008, 08:31:05 PM »
PNW,

It looks like the U.S. VPN borrowed the basic language of the VPN doctrinaire document, which reads as follows:

1) Preparation of the dough:

Blend flour, water, salt and yeast. Pour a liter of water into a mixer, dissolve between the 50 and the 55g of salt, add 10% of the total amount of flour, and then add 3g of hydrated yeast. Start the mixer, and then gradually add 1800 g of flour until you achievement of the desired dough consistency. Combining the ingredients should take 10 minutes.

Next, mix the dough at low speed for 20 minutes, until the dough forms a single ball. To obtain the optimal dough consistency, it is very important to control the quantity of water, such that the flour is able to absorb it all. The mixture should be sticky, soft and elastic to the touch.


As you can see, the U.S. VPN corrected the language on the total amount of flour and how it is apportioned in the mixer bowl. My interpretation of the language in that respect would be the same as what Mike (Essen1) said in his post.

However, and perhaps more importantly, you unwittingly put your finger on a point that led Marco to comment on the 1800 grams of flour in the VPN doctrinaire document, specifically, at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1235.msg11084/topicseen.html#msg11084. With 1800 grams of flour and one liter of water, the hydration would be 55.5%, which most people would find to be on the low side even though it almost falls in the range of hydrations (50-55%) recited in the VPN doctrinaire document. Even though the doctrinaire document is useful in many respects, I wouldn't treat it as gospel. In this respect, see Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1235.msg11119.html#msg11119.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 09:16:55 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2008, 10:11:24 PM »
I was curiuous to know what the result of cooking an underhyrdrated dough would be?  Would it be too crispy or too chewy?  Just wondering, if there is a chart with certain dough issues and possible causes some where would be interesting to view.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2008, 10:41:57 PM »
I was curiuous to know what the result of cooking an underhyrdrated dough would be?  Would it be too crispy or too chewy?  Just wondering, if there is a chart with certain dough issues and possible causes some where would be interesting to view.


Al,

That is a hard question to answer in the abstract since the answer to your question depends on several other factors beyond hydration, including the type of flour, the thickness of the skin, the use of other ingredients like oil and sugar and their quantities, and the heat source. If you have a Neapolitan style dough in mind that uses 00 flour, the heat source becomes important because the dough will bake up differently at very high oven temperatures than it will in a standard home oven, and the bake times will be different, which will affect the final character of the crusts in terms of softness, chewiness and crispiness. The dough formulations, including hydration, will also be different for a very high temperature application than it will be for a standard home oven application.

For troubleshooting dough problems, you may want to read John Correll's Encyclopizza on this subject, at http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm.

Peter

EDIT (2/1/2013): For an alternative Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040602213637/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 11:58:53 AM by Pete-zza »


 

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