Author Topic: Authentic Naples Dough as possible  (Read 21177 times)

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Offline JimmyMak

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2008, 08:31:04 PM »
I just made dough with 100% pizza caputo flour.
1000 gr flour
600 gr water, if tap distilled for a day
1-2 gr fresh yeast
24 gr sea salt
75% of flour all of the water & mixed by hand , cover rest 20 min.
remaining flour salt Knead on KA 600 on 1 for 8 min.
cover & warm rise @73 degrees overnight. 18hrs
Divided & balled ,covered rise aprox 3 hrs.
This dough is so soft ,in my opinion it would be difficult to make a pizza much biggger than 12"
The pizzas were the best I ever made. The crust did the talking.
I wish I took pictures of these ones.
I 've made many different doughs like most of have & this one is my favorite.
This method will be more difficult for larger bakes.
Next time the temp or humidty might change the finished product.
Thanks everyone for all the good info.



Offline trailer

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2008, 10:41:55 PM »
Add one more for Coquitlam!

These locations may help you two in sourcing your flour..

La Grotta
Del Formaggio
1791 Commercial
604-255-3911

Fortunato, the owner,  has been one of the major specialty importers in Vancouver for 20 years. He was the only one bringing in San Pellegrino for ages... Now even Costco does it.

You could also try Bosa Foods. They are at 1st Ave and Highway 1.





Offline fabio

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2008, 11:16:57 PM »
trailer, are you saying that La Grotta now carries caputo?!?!?! I've never seen it there. That sure would be handy.

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2008, 08:12:23 PM »
Fabio,

They carry a type of 00 in small bags from Italy but I can't remember the brand name.  They do not have the Caputo there.  Valoroso in Kelowna is looking for some one in Vancouver to carry it so they can sell it retail here.

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2008, 08:04:35 PM »
As a typical Neapolitan dough recipe, the U.S. VPN organization recommends the following recipe: http://www.verapizzanapoletana.org/vpn/ricetta.htm. I have not tried that recipe so I cannot comment on it other than to say that many of our members use a higher hydration than the hydration (about 55.6%) called for in that recipe. Keep in mind, however, that the Neapolitan pizza makers use different mixers than we use (see Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1660.msg15318/topicseen.html#msg15318). They do not use planetary mixers.

Peter
Peter,

Not sure if this has been discussed before or if I am misreading but I interpret the following differently than others.


1) Preparation of the Dough: The ingredients are flour, water, salt, and yeast. Pour one liter of water into a mixer bowl. Dissolve 50-55 grams of sea salt. Now successively add 10% of the flour and 3g yeast. Turn on the mixer, gradually adding the rest of 1,800 grams of flour W 220-380 until the desired consistency is reached, that is until it is a dough. This operation should last about ten minutes. The dough should then be worked in the mixer for about 20 minutes at low speed until it is a compact mass The dough should not be sticky, but soft and elastic. The dough must not be heated during the above operations.

When they say adding the rest of 1,800 grams - I take that to mean they started with 2,000 grams, added 10% (200 grams) at the beginning and that left 1,800 to be gradually added. The math works out better with 250 gram balls which divides evenly into 3000 grams as opposed to 2800 grams divided by 250, leaving 11.2 .

Obviously in my scenario it is a much less hydrated dough - just a curiosity from reading that VPN translation.

Any thoughts?

PNW

Offline Essen1

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2008, 08:13:53 PM »
PNW,

I think they mean to take 180 gr off the entire 1,800 gr of flour and then gradually add the rest from the 1,800 gr, which is 1,620 gr.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

Offline November

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2008, 08:27:37 PM »
gradually adding the rest of 1,800 grams of flour

Mike is precisely correct.  "The rest" only has one meaning, the remainder of the total, and isn't open for interpretation.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2008, 08:31:05 PM »
PNW,

It looks like the U.S. VPN borrowed the basic language of the VPN doctrinaire document, which reads as follows:

1) Preparation of the dough:

Blend flour, water, salt and yeast. Pour a liter of water into a mixer, dissolve between the 50 and the 55g of salt, add 10% of the total amount of flour, and then add 3g of hydrated yeast. Start the mixer, and then gradually add 1800 g of flour until you achievement of the desired dough consistency. Combining the ingredients should take 10 minutes.

Next, mix the dough at low speed for 20 minutes, until the dough forms a single ball. To obtain the optimal dough consistency, it is very important to control the quantity of water, such that the flour is able to absorb it all. The mixture should be sticky, soft and elastic to the touch.


As you can see, the U.S. VPN corrected the language on the total amount of flour and how it is apportioned in the mixer bowl. My interpretation of the language in that respect would be the same as what Mike (Essen1) said in his post.

However, and perhaps more importantly, you unwittingly put your finger on a point that led Marco to comment on the 1800 grams of flour in the VPN doctrinaire document, specifically, at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1235.msg11084/topicseen.html#msg11084. With 1800 grams of flour and one liter of water, the hydration would be 55.5%, which most people would find to be on the low side even though it almost falls in the range of hydrations (50-55%) recited in the VPN doctrinaire document. Even though the doctrinaire document is useful in many respects, I wouldn't treat it as gospel. In this respect, see Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1235.msg11119.html#msg11119.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 09:16:55 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2008, 10:11:24 PM »
I was curiuous to know what the result of cooking an underhyrdrated dough would be?  Would it be too crispy or too chewy?  Just wondering, if there is a chart with certain dough issues and possible causes some where would be interesting to view.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #59 on: August 15, 2008, 10:41:57 PM »
I was curiuous to know what the result of cooking an underhyrdrated dough would be?  Would it be too crispy or too chewy?  Just wondering, if there is a chart with certain dough issues and possible causes some where would be interesting to view.

Al,

That is a hard question to answer in the abstract since the answer to your question depends on several other factors beyond hydration, including the type of flour, the thickness of the skin, the use of other ingredients like oil and sugar and their quantities, and the heat source. If you have a Neapolitan style dough in mind that uses 00 flour, the heat source becomes important because the dough will bake up differently at very high oven temperatures than it will in a standard home oven, and the bake times will be different, which will affect the final character of the crusts in terms of softness, chewiness and crispiness. The dough formulations, including hydration, will also be different for a very high temperature application than it will be for a standard home oven application.

For troubleshooting dough problems, you may want to read John Correll's Encyclopizza on this subject, at http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm.

Peter

EDIT (2/1/2013): For an alternative Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040602213637/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 11:58:53 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2008, 11:05:48 PM »
Hi Peter,

That is a nice link, thanks.  I know there are many factors that contribute or create different issues in the dough.  You answered my question with this link as I was interested in seeing something like this for learning purposes.  I find even slight variations can sometimes produce quite different results in the finsihed pizza so this will help me in determining which adjustments created the variation in the dough.

thanks,
Al

Offline JimmyMak

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2008, 06:38:47 PM »
 anyone know if different fresh yeasts or idy produce different flavor.

Offline fabio

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2008, 06:41:59 PM »
Absolutely, yes. As does HOW you use them.

Offline JimmyMak

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2008, 06:52:17 PM »
what brand of fresh yeast do you like

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2008, 07:52:26 PM »
anyone know if different fresh yeasts or idy produce different flavor.

JimmyMak,

I know that bakers and pizza operators have their personal preferences when it comes to the form of yeast, but some time ago, Tom Lehmann said that he and his colleagues ran side by side tests at the American Institute of Baking (where he works) using fresh yeast, ADY and IDY, and they couldn't detect a difference in the finished crusts.

The above said, Marco discussed the use of IDY versus fresh yeast at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8959/topicseen.html#msg8959.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 07:56:00 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2008, 09:41:46 PM »
As I make a transition from my ap/ pastry simulation neaoplitan style pizza to Caputo flour I find that an advantage in making the larger batches with the room temp fermentation is that the dough balls stay much softer.  A problem I encountered at times with the 24 hr refrigeration process with the ap/pastry is that the dough sometimes came out a little chewier than I wanted after baking even in the brick oven.  I believe this was due to the time the dough mass was waiting to go into the fridge when I was cutting and balling all of my dough balls before refrigeration.  I did leave them uncovered for an hour on each side before covering them with saran wrap.  I have parties in which I prepare 25 dough balls by hand and I believe this period in which the dough mass sits there as the balls are prepared are leading to an overall over-fermentation after I hand knead the mass.  To cut and ball 25 dough balls on my own can take me about a half hour and I have to measure it on the scale.  I do leave the dough balls to come up to room temp after the fridge before baking.  When I use the room temp caputo I have an easier time making a close approximation to the desired 9oz dough ball which is nice when cutting and balling and usually dont have to use the scale.  I am not sure as to the exact reason but its probably how the dough handles after the intitial approximate 18 hour room temp rise.  I could be wrong by some of my assumptions but always love to hear other thoughts or advice.

thanks,
Al

Offline artigiano

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Re: Authentic Naples Dough as possible
« Reply #66 on: September 06, 2008, 10:39:04 AM »
Hi guys,

I have followed the advice from this thread and found that cutting the fresh yeast from 1 gram to 1/3rd gram was much better.  I do think it might have been too much and I should maybe now try 1/2 gram.  I was also wondering as to why my pizza dough becomes tough after a while (I used this recipe in the home oven and not the brick oven at 500 degrees this time as I didnt have time lately to fire up the brick oven).  I find this can happen even with the brick oven that the dough can become tougher after a while.  Sometimes it is nice and crisp and doesnt change much and other times it can become tougher.  I think it might be a question of if it is underhydrated.  I may have been confusing overhydrated with overfermented, but in this case I followed this recipe exactly and still have had this issue... even though it is inline with the suggested hydration for Caputo dough.

850g caputo
500ml water
25g sea salt
1/3 gram yeast (but will now try 1/2g)

18 bulk rise - wrapped in plastic which worked great as per advice from forum
3 hour individual ball rise under blankets which did not form any crusting and dough was nice and soft.. after a 1/2 hour i noticed them starting to become crustier on the skin

thanks,
Al
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 10:49:00 AM by artigiano »


 

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