Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina

[BTB]

. . . I have been using BTB's semolina formula since inception . . . . to be honest I have been happy with our pizza for many years . . . and had Lou's (pizza) about once a week for 25 years, either in or pick up . . . . .

Hey Flavorman, ditto.  I was a regular at Malnati's on Lincoln Ave. in Lincolnwood for many, many years.  Then when my business moved further north, I was a regular at Malnati's in Buffalo Grove, too, but often visited the Elk Grove Village and the Well's St. and the close-in Lincoln Ave. locations.  While first falling in love with the original Uno's/Due's great deep dish pizzas, I later came to love Lou's pizzas as the greatest on the face of the earth.               

                                                                                                                    --BTB

P.S.  My "flip phone" stays mostly in the car, too ! ! !

[vcb]

Are the thoughts relating to adding all the oils first mean to add the oils first into the flour blend, which is either the bread or AP flour together with the semolina flour, before all the other ingredients, i.e., water, water/ADY blend, salt, sugar, and softened butter? 

Please, anyone, add their thoughts here regarding this "oil first" idea.

                                                                                        --BTB

Here's the order I usually use when making pizza dough:

Yeast, (sugar & salt, if you're using it), lukewarm water, oil, then half of the flour.
Then I mix it together into something resembling pancake or waffle batter.
Then I add the rest of the flour, mixing with a strong spoon until it comes together.
Then I knead it by hand until it forms a ball. During the kneading, if it seems a little dry, I let the dough rest a few minutes so the flour can hydrate and then try kneading again. If it's still too dry, I add a few drops of water to get it pliable enough to form a ball.

WHY?
I put the liquids in first, including the oil (along with the yeast) because that's the way I saw them do it at Lou Malnati's on a video I saw.
(don't remember the youtube link, but I'm pretty sure it's in a thread where we were working out ingredient amounts & talking about Cambro containers)
** found the discussion thread, but sadly the youtube video appears to have been pulled:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.0.html. **

I figured if I'm going to replicate deep dish dough, I should try doing it the way they do.

As far as the food science goes, there is probably a difference in texture if you combine the oil with the flour first before adding any water.
The oil surrounds the flour grains, which makes it harder for the water to get in, which you need for gluten formation right?

The type of oil/fat also makes a difference: Check out this link about 'Shortening Power Of Fats And Oils' :
http://chestofbooks.com/food/science/Experimental-Cookery/Shortening-Power-Of-Fats-And-Oils-Continued.html

[FLAVORMAN]

BTB..
Small world, I live in Florida on the east coast.  We moved my company from Elk Grove to Wheeling Illinois and visited both Lou's often. ( I had an employee who worked part time at the ElK Grove location and he would get me their flour blend to play with, wish I had some now to ,,in those days I used coconut oil with the flour) Also had a home in the South Haven Area....keep on cookin'  and I hear your flip phone ringing....

[pythonic]

Flavorman, I think you're great pizzamaker and love to hear of your experiments and thoughts here. 

I'm thinking of trying an experiment making two small deep dish pizzas, one with adding the oils first and the other with adding it near the end of the blending process, and then comparing the two.  But I need a clearer understanding of the difference in approaches.  Are the thoughts relating to adding all the oils first mean to add the oils first into the flour blend, which is either the bread or AP flour together with the semolina flour, before all the other ingredients, i.e., water, water/ADY blend, salt, sugar, and softened butter? 

Please, anyone, add their thoughts here regarding this "oil first" idea.

                                                                                        --BTB

BTB,

"Oil first" to me is adding the oil to all flours.  I add the butter during my 60 sec kneading process.  It made a difference vs adding the oil to everything else for me.  Lower temps did as well.

Nate

[FLAVORMAN]

Yes I agree with BTB...add the oil to the flour blend and mix by hand..it will all come together, then add other liquids. I do not use butter and am working on using less oil and maybe adding butter....I have many trials in the next month or so and will let you know if anything great comes out superior to brag about....have fun...
ps   I know I am going to hear about this but just bought some fine grind corn meal and will make a few using it....please no yelling....ha ha ............

[Chicago Bob]

Yes I agree with BTB...add the oil to the flour blend and mix by hand..it will all come together, then add other liquids. I do not use butter and am working on using less oil and maybe adding butter....I have many trials in the next month or so and will let you know if anything great comes out superior to brag about....have fun...
ps   I know I am going to hear about this but just bought some fine grind corn meal and will make a few using it....please no yelling....ha ha ............

OOOh for the love of......!!!!!!!!!

[pythonic]

OOOh for the love of......!!!!!!!!!

Shhhhh.....cornmeal is the bomb.  Add a little honey too.

[BTB]

This past weekend I went about the experiment that I mentioned above by making 2 small 6" pizzas by mixing the flour first with the oils and then the other ingredients afterwards.  I then also made one small 7" pizza by mixing the ingredients as I expressed above starting at Reply #710 (i.e., adding the oils late in the process).   I used the same formulation for the pizza crusts as I did above.  My objective was to see (and taste) what, if any, difference there was with adding the oils first to the flour instead of later in the mixing cycle.  My wife and adult son were prepared to judge the results of this tasty effort.  Some pics follow.

[BTB]

After we consumed pieces of both pizzas in which the ingredients were combined a little differently, we savored on the resulting delicious meal, burped a bit, and said . . . they're both great ! ! !  Sorry to some of my friends who thought differently, but this was our experience with this trial.  There was no significant difference in the 3 pizzas.  The good news to us was that we had a delicious meal regardless of the order of mixing the oils.  The pizzas were outstanding.  I may next have to try what VCB suggested with putting all the liquids in the bowl first even before the flour.

See how much fun these "experiments" can be?  In the name of science, you get to eat some great pizza !

                                                                                                   --BTB               

[Chicago Bob]

Woo Hoo BTB!! You should get an award or something for those beauties...sooo nice man! 
The photography is stunning. That last pic is the best looking DD I have seen anywhere. I would frame that!
I need some of those tall pans, really shows off your great work.

[Mad_Ernie]

BTB:

Those are some Killer pies!     I haven't made a deep-dish in a while.  You've got me thinking it might be time to break out the recipe and knock out 1 or 2 for good times.

Thanks for sharing.

-ME

[pythonic]

BTB,

Perhaps the high semolina ratio you are using is preventing the texture difference.  I'm only using 4%.  What bake temp are you currently using?

Nate

[Condolini]

Tried BTB's crust for my first trip down the Chi road. Crust was made in the food processor in the morning, local sausage that I seasoned and precooked.
Final assessment: the sausage was way too lean, I over baked the pie a bit, crust was very crispy. No problems getting the dough to stretch or stay on the sides of the pan. Needed more tomatoes, the pie was dry. Liked the butter taste in the crust even tho it was over cooked.
Where's the fun if you can't learn from experience? Thanks for the crust BTB!

[Chicago Bob]

Tried BTB's crust for my first trip down the Chi road. Crust was made in the food processor in the morning, local sausage that I seasoned and precooked.
Final assessment: the sausage was way too lean, I over baked the pie a bit, crust was very crispy. No problems getting the dough to stretch or stay on the sides of the pan. Needed more tomatoes, the pie was dry. Liked the butter taste in the crust even tho it was over cooked.
Where's the fun if you can't learn from experience? Thanks for the crust BTB!

Condolini,
You have a great attitude and are quite insightful on your first critique of your pizza. Looks like you only have minor changes to get your pie to happy Chi-Town. 
Please do not ever pre cook the sausage...think you got that now though.

Bob

[Garvey]

Ha!  As I was typing, "Never precook the sausage," C-Bob posted the same thing!

[Condolini]

Thanks for the feedback. Next time I won't drain the tomatoes as long either. The sausage flavor was good because I added fennel seeds and Penzey's Italian sausage seasoning.

So is that why I've had Rocky Rococo pizza with medium rare sausage? 

[Chicago Bob]

Thanks for the feedback. Next time I won't drain the tomatoes as long either. The sausage flavor was good because I added fennel seeds and Penzey's Italian sausage seasoning.

So is that why I've had Rocky Rococo pizza with medium rare sausage? 

Probably...argh! 
Please tell me you have never sang their theme song or you'll be walk'in the plank matey. 

[BTB]

Perhaps the high semolina ratio you are using is preventing the texture difference.  I'm only using 4%.  What bake temp are you currently using?

Nate, King Arthur's Flour would not consider a 20% semolina flour mixture as a "high semolina ratio"  When I corresponded with them a few years ago about proportions of semolina being used in pizza dough formulations, I inquired as to whether a 15 to 20% ratio would be a good norm.  They indicated that "substantially more" semolina would be needed to get the effect of the semolina flour to the mixture.  I've tried 5%, 10%, 15%, 30%, 40%, etc., etc., but have since settled on 20% as that pleases both mine and my taste testers taste buds the most.  If 4% does it for you, that's all that's important.  That's what makes this pizzamaking adventure so much fun.  People can experiment and vary the recipe to determine what pleases them the most.

I've been recently cooking deep dish pizzas in the range of 430 to 450 degrees F.  Ovens and techniques vary, of course, and I've been recently starting the pizzas on a low oven rack, then about half way through moving the pan or pans up to a higher rack level.

Your pictures show that you've done some great work with your Chicago deep dish pizzamaking.  Maybe I'll see you this summer in Chicago for some great deep dish pizza dining.  I'm looking forward to indulging in some Malnati's, Due's, Gino's East, Louisa's, etc. (along with some of the great, great thin crusts:  Vito & Nicks, Home Run Inn, Marie's, Candlelight, Villa Nova, etc.).  So many great pizzas, but so little time . . .

                                                                                                                  --BTB                       

[pythonic]

Thanks BTB.  Your deep dishes still look better though.  The top of your crusts is eye popping great.  It's kinda your signature or something.  I'd definitely be down for some pizza dining.  Maybe even Chicago Bob could make the journey back as well.

Nate