Author Topic: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -  (Read 43302 times)

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Offline shuboyje

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #250 on: July 12, 2015, 12:44:35 AM »
I totally missed that we were talking about a different oven then the standard SF mobile oven.  I now see the post from february that with the oven in question.  My gut says it's modern insulation to keep the weight down, but I'm just as curious as you to find out now.

-Jeff


Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #251 on: July 12, 2015, 06:47:11 AM »
This new mobile oven has the form factor of a fixed SF yet we know that the form factor of the fixed is different from the regular mobile because of the additional mass as compared to the mobile. So what is filling that space in these new mobile facades?

They are heavier, more Leca and cement ?

A video of the oven being delivered at Motorino Singapore: https://www.facebook.com/MotorinoSingapore/videos/vb.798722186839056/905103672867573/?type=2&theater

there is also some pictures of the oven here: https://www.facebook.com/solopizzataipei/
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 05:40:38 PM by sub »

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #252 on: July 12, 2015, 07:09:56 AM »
SF mobile ovens have almost no mass/insulation outside of the solider bricks, and you can see plain as day in the construction photos and in the way the exterior of the ovens begin their curve right at the door as opposed to the fixed ovens which have a flat area to the sides of the door because of the additional mass. These new mobile ovens have the same flat areas to the sides of the door as the fixed ovens. So what is behind the tiles on the fancy new mobile ovens? Is it a completely different mobile oven design or just a fancy new dress on the same old oven? My guess is that it's a grand facade given the incremental weight required for the mass necessary to fill the shell.

Dear Craig, I am glad you brought up this issue. I have been working with a mobile Ferrara oven at the workplace for five days per week since 3.5 years ago until present. Of course, that does not make me an expert on Neapolitan ovens at all; however, when I converse with those pizzaioli who have been operating fixed Ferrara ovens (of which there is one at a local pizzeria here in San Diego), I perceive differences between mobile and fixed Ferrara ovens in terms of construction, materials used, and performance. Moreover, when I visually scrutinize various construction photos of mobile and fixed Ferrara ovens, I see certain contrasting features that immediately stand out.

Indeed, mobile Ferrara ovens do not appear to be insulated the same way as fixed Ferrara ovens of the same hearth size. I am talking about the insulation around the brick soldier course (and possibly around the dome). Please, see the 1st picture, below, which shows a mobile Ferrara oven under construction. As you pointed out, there is little room left to insulate the brick soldier course that would later encompass the biscotto oven floor. Now, in contrast, take a look at the 2nd picture, below, which shows a fixed Ferrara oven under construction. There is noticeably much more room left to insulate the brick soldier course that would later encircle the biscotto oven floor.

Related to this issue of insulation in mobile and fixed Ferrara ovens is, as you mentioned, the curvature or flatness of the external oven walls to the right and left sides of the oven door. With regard to the mobile Ferrara ovens, the external walls to the left and right sides of the oven door are often "round" (see the 3rd picture below), while the external walls to the left and right sides of the oven door in a fixed Ferrara oven are always "flat" (see the 4th picture below). Perchance, my improvised diagram below (see the 5th picture) explains why the mobile oven has round walls and the fixed oven has flat walls on both sides of the oven door. In re the picture of the mobile Ferrara oven you referred to in your post (the picture is re-posted below as the 6th picture), it seems to be a new mobile model, which does not seem to have the "circular" metal base anymore.

I should point out that, as you are cognizant, this issue of thickness of insulation in mobile versus fixed ovens is not limited only to Ferrara ovens. Many other oven builders have followed suit, but not all.

At last, but not least, I have never seen tuff stones (which seem to have insulating properties) being used in constructing mobile ovens. On the other hand, apparently tuff stones are commonly used, not by all oven builders though, to fence in the domes, internal oven walls, and oven floors of fixed Neapolitan ovens. See the last picture, below, which shows the use of tuff stones in construction of this Agliarulo fixed oven. According to a research paper published by MIT, ". . . Masonry walls made of tuff stone is more durable than concrete and brick walls. . . . Tuff stone is very porous in nature so its density, thermal conductivity value and P-wave velocity is lower than other rocks. Therefore, tuff stone is a good heat insulator due to its porous structure." Source: http://web.mit.edu/afs.new/athena/dept/cron/project/concrete-sustainability-hub/Optimized%20ICF/Background%20Research/2006_Ozkahraman.pdf

Considering all the above, my assumption is that mobile Ferrara ovens (other than the new model, of which I know nothing about) immoderately dissipate or waste thermal energy, which is perhaps why the external walls of the mobile Ferrara oven at my workplace is usually quite hot to the touch, or is substantially hotter than the external walls of the fixed Ferrara oven at the local Neapolitan pizzeria here in San Diego. Good day!

Omid
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 05:34:35 PM by Pizza Napoletana »
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline Pizza Napoletana

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #253 on: July 12, 2015, 07:23:11 AM »
Dear Sub, I must thank you for creating this wonderful thread--which should be a sticky.
Recipes make pizzas no more than sermons make saints!

http://pizzanapoletanismo.com/2011/09/27/a-philosophy-of-pizza-napoletanismo/

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #254 on: July 12, 2015, 02:11:13 PM »
Omid, thank you for posting the article on tuff stone. According to the article, thermal conductivity of tuff stone 0.40 W/mK.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #255 on: July 12, 2015, 02:52:51 PM »
Dear Sub, I must thank you for creating this wonderful thread--which should be a sticky.

You're welcome Omid, I hope it will be helpful to many DIYers.

Omid, thank you for posting the article on tuff stone. According to the article, thermal conductivity of tuff stone 0.40 W/mK.

0.63 W/mK for the tufo giallo napoletano

http://www.tecnologica.altervista.org/php5/index.php/Pietra
http://radioactivity.forumcommunity.net/?t=47961941

Offline stonecutter

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #256 on: July 12, 2015, 03:03:11 PM »
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html

Range of  .05-2.5 on the chart....lots of variables typical of natural materials.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #257 on: July 12, 2015, 04:14:34 PM »
They are heavier, more Leca and cement ?

A video of the oven being delivered at Motorino Singapore: https://www.facebook.com/MotorinoSingapore/videos/vb.798722186839056/905103672867573/?type=2&theater

I'm looking at the picture of the Motorino oven and reading the MLF oven specifications in the table and looking at the diagram, and I'm thinking the diagram can't possibly be right, and it isn't. At a minimum, as you will see below, Dimention B should only extend to the middle ring given the measurements in the specification tables. The size specifications listed can't possibly fit the full MLF diagram or the Motorino oven (or the Pizzeria Felice oven), and they don't. Upon closer inspection, those two ovens are very different from the Cane Rosso oven which does appear to fit the MLF specs (but not the full diagram). The first problem is that the diagrams are on slightly different scales. When corrected, you can see that the MLF, as specified in the tables, has nowhere near as much mass/insulation as the diagram would suggest and that there are no flat sections to the left and right of the door. This is confirmed in the pictures of the Cane Rosso oven which does not have the flat sections.

If Dimensions A & B are correct in the tables, it is not possible to have flat sections to the sides of the door without shrinking the depth of the throat down to nothing. The Motorino and Felice all but certainly have to be a different design from the MLF specs/Cane Rosso oven. I think this is what the diagram actually shows as I will discuss below.

There are other oddities in the SF mobile specs as well. In Dimension C, the measurements in IN are the same for both the Mobile oven and the MLF but the measurements in CM are not. Also, the CM measurements for the Mobile oven don't match what is posted on their website or in their catalog. I tend to doubt they are reversed as the diagrams suggest the MLF is significantly less deep and reversing the numbers would show the MLF as longer.

The diagram below puts the diagrams on the same scale. All colored sections are identical in both. You can see that there is an outer ring that, if it existed, would result in flat sections to the sides of the mouth. My guess is that there is another MLF oven that is not shown in their catalog that has mass/insulation more closely matching the Fixed oven and that this is what we see when we look at the Motorino and Felice ovens. In the diagrams referenced by the specification tables, they Dimension B extending to the outer ring when it should just extend to the middle ring. I think the outer ring is probably a different model - the Motorino/Felice model which has much more insulation/mass. Interestingly, SF uses the same diagram in their catalog for the fixed oven which has more mass and the flat areas to the sides of the door.  http://www.sfallestimenti.it/catalogo_sf_allestimenti.compressed.pdf

« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 08:11:40 PM by TXCraig1 »
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #258 on: July 12, 2015, 04:20:58 PM »
How I think the Cane Rosso and Motorino/Felice ovens are actually designed:
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #259 on: July 14, 2015, 02:09:47 AM »

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #260 on: July 14, 2015, 02:12:29 AM »
Another great dome

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #261 on: July 17, 2015, 07:17:49 AM »
An article about the Sant'Agnello oven (page 7)

they produce bricks and tiles since 1492!


 

Offline drogus

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #262 on: August 08, 2015, 03:37:45 AM »
A wonderful thread, I must say! I'm not sure if this is a good place to ask questions, but I think one thing is missing here as this topic is meant to be a summary of knowledge for WFO builders. I was thinking about building a WFO at my in-laws' backyard and first thing you need to deal with is a design, and the question that comes naturally at this stage, what should be the size?

From reading multiple threads on the forum I gathered a few thoughts:

  • the bigger the oven, the easier is to manage heat inside, thus it's easier to bake pizzas. txcraig1 usually advocates for ovens of 42"+, but I've also seen posts saying that anything bigger than 36" is fine (I'm not sure if that was a comment specifically for Neapolitan WFO)
  • bigger oven means more fuel burned and more time to heat it up, although it's unclear to me how various versions compare (like how much wood and/or time do you need for 48" vs 42"). Obviously it will also depend on insulation, quality of the build, type of wood and other things, but maybe there are some estimations or averages?
  • bigger oven will obviously cost more and needs more space

Could someone more experienced with WFOs sum up things to be considered when choosing the size?

Offline ChristianVerschaeren

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #263 on: August 08, 2015, 05:04:39 AM »
I think the most important thing is thermal mass: the thickness of the walls. The one that served as example in this thread are all commercial ovens, fired day in day out and really never cool down. When I bake on Saturdays I have to get up early in the morning to start firing the oven for 8+ hours

Offline stonecutter

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #264 on: August 08, 2015, 07:22:40 AM »
It's been mentioned, but for an occasional use backyard oven 36" is plenty...go bigger if you prefer but it's not a requirement for a good functional oven.  Keep your mass below 4" ( thicker walls= longer firing but more retention-for strictly pizza, go up to 3") and use as much insulation between the mass and outer finishes. 
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When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #265 on: August 08, 2015, 10:41:14 AM »
Bigger oven means pizza can be further away from radiant heat source resulting in more even bake.

Offline sub

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #266 on: August 08, 2015, 10:50:15 AM »
I think the most important thing is thermal mass: the thickness of the walls. The one that served as example in this thread are all commercial ovens, fired day in day out and really never cool down. When I bake on Saturdays I have to get up early in the morning to start firing the oven for 8+ hours

It's been mentioned, but for an occasional use backyard oven 36" is plenty...go bigger if you prefer but it's not a requirement for a good functional oven.  Keep your mass below 4" ( thicker walls= longer firing but more retention-for strictly pizza, go up to 3") and use as much insulation between the mass and outer finishes.

I agree, less thermal mass is better for a non commercial setup.

In this perspective, I think one should use modern insulator like ceramic blanket / board, perlite loose without cement.

Sailor course instead of soldier, fire brick with less alumina...
« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 11:22:27 AM by sub »


Offline Neopolitan

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Re: Authentic Neapolitan WFO - How to build -
« Reply #267 on: August 16, 2015, 10:41:45 AM »
Does anybody know the purpose of the big wall in the back of the Meastro Ernesto ovens?

It is for shure a trade mark to recognize his ovens.